Has JK Rowling gone too far? Helen Joyce vs Debbie Hayton | SpectatorTV

[@SpectatorTV]

How deep is the divide in the gender critical movement and did JK Rowling cross the line with her tongue-in-cheek tweet about transgender referee Lucy Clark? Click below for more - How the NHS got away with puberty blockers kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5vJfIueiNqmfKM Let Women Speak and standing against Labour kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWnIaWaBpK-VZpI How the Father Ted musical was cancelled kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJrdeGZpmqeZa5I

[@wolfhugs2221]

Semantics. The GC movement are united in the main aims.

[@apebass2215]

The bigger divide is between the individuals in society who pretend they don't know what men and women are, and those who recognise the importance of acknowledging biological sex.

[@geekgurl2000]

See Rex Landy's parody last night "Lucy Is A Guy With Delusions"!

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

Some of them are literary allying with the far right. I think this whole conversation is nonsense. I think people should have the right to live as the gender they feel like. Are they men or women? I fail to see how that is our business. Also, misgendering trans people intentionally is actually pretty mean. I don't see how this is different from anti - gay rhetoric

[@moodyonroody5313]

@@geekgurl2000 hehe if it's still up on youtube I'm there!

[@AG-tj8ew]

Helen Joyce is one of the most articulate speakers in the public sphere. Coherent, logical & consistent. Always a pleasure listening to her contributions.

[@LuciThomasHardylover-qx6ts]

Let's hear more of her!

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

Sex and gender is not that simple.

[@Shinitkun]

@@user-kk2pc7ik7t how so?

[@Raven.Madness]

@@user-kk2pc7ik7t you’re right. Sex is innate and immutable and gender is complicated and the definition of it changes constantly

[@MsMRJames-ll9dh]

She is fab isn't she?

[@janenoble6889]

I am one of those women who are deeply offended by men insisting they are women.

[@tommyvohs8815]

You are not alone my sister.

[@slacktoryrecords4193]

I’m a man and I find it vaguely offensive (at least) when anyone of either sex denies their sex and tries to identify into the other. It’s as ridiculous as claiming to be a different race.

[@oliviaramirez71]

Same, I can't stand liars.

[@DieFlabbergast]

It is not just women who are deeply offended. I am a man and I am deeply offended, indeed, almost enraged. My mother (now deceased) was a woman, my wife is a woman, my sisters are women, and my granddaughter will become a woman in the fullness of time. It is not just women who have "skin in the game." I am a human being and women and girls constitute half the human race. If that is not enough reason, I don't know what could be.

[@pulchralutetia]

But you’re intensely relaxed about female to male transitioners invading men’s spaces? What hypocrisy on your part.

[@huskymad]

No she hasn’t gone too far. If anything she hasn’t gone far enough.

[@dimitrioskantakouzinos8590]

This and only this.

[@GreenWhitePurple]

JKR has gone too far? By using a bit of irony to make a point! No, putting male rapists in women’s prisons, sterilising young people and men in women’s spaces is going too far.

[@tommyh4116]

That goes for all of us. We all could do more

[@glyn1212]

indeed.Not far enough. How about the moon?

[@woodwyrm]

Truth!

[@angelpajarillo]

Dear Helen is utterly breathtaking in her cogent articulate common sense with such integrity . She nails it when she says peoples politeness has been taken great advantage of and has to stop now!

[@mr.mayhem7402]

It's time to be unkind. Being kind got all of us into this mess and resulted in mass abuse of children that have had life altering surgery because of an ideology that people tolerated when they shouldn't.

[@Enhancedlies]

this is it

[@Catherine.Dorian.]

Yep, our kindness has now ruined a large amount of our youth and it’s damaging everyone. Time to be a bitch

[@pads-zr9ln]

Same with immigration, benefits, schooling, being kind has gone too far

[@lindalaw5466]

What happened to being truthful.

[@sckiddle]

This is a situation which exemplifies the saying "being cruel to be kind"

[@impossibleagent3663]

Calling a spade a spade is not an offense.

[@simama...xox..]

Both Helen Joyce and JK Rowling remain my heroes ❣️

[@just_another32]

mine too

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Mine too mate

[@shady2390]

And me. Seek out Helen Joyce's book "Trans When Ideology Meets Reality" I can strongly recommend it

[@jac6727]

I started my personal education on Helen’s book. I’m deeply disappointed that Helen and Julie Bindle have made ANY concessions at all with this person. JK is a freaking JAUGGERNAUT! Love her unwavering dedication to protecting women’s spaces! And Kellie Jay Keen is spot on about all this ceding Helen and Julie are making. In this trans lunacy NO EXCEPTIONS OR COMPROMISES CAN BE MADE. It is CLEAR that the she-males will proliferate and infect our spaces with impunity!

[@stellafalconer6715]

Same here.

[@impossibleagent3663]

JKR is a hero. HJ is a hero.

[@whitepanties2751]

Heroines! Unless they self-identify as male, but I doubt they do.

[@KyleAlexander]

Your bar for hero's is very low

[@harmonygordon6901]

Helen makes great points. WE ALL HAVE SKIN IN THE GAME. And women are DONE playing a game where we are asked to LIE in order to protect the feelings if men. JKR has peaked a lot of people worldwide. We will protect women's rights and we will safeguard kids.

[@madebymonkeys5641]

Men and boys..... make no mistake, if it were us that carried the brunt of the burnded when it comes to trans issues, the whole world would have just told us to stop crying about it. So i have little sympathy for the TURFs, about time some of the chickens they let loose have come back to roost in their back yard.😊

[@wellsorted]

With the AGPs it's foreskin and I don't care about the foreskin of a pervert.

[@nisagomez4366]

Kids are safe from trans people. If you want to protect kids, go harass priests and men.

[@pikkuoo]

Helen Joyce is magnificent.

[@lynnm6413]

And yet here we are, having a f3ti$histic man trying to tell women…even though you are right, you might want to be quiet and stop talking about it! Excuse me, is this the 1920 all over again?!

[@michelledavis2604]

You only say that because she supports your view.

[@marysheedy5709]

​@@michelledavis2604 And such is life. Also she is intelligent, articulate and right. That could be another reason to believe that she is magnificent.

[@keithwilkins1437]

I think the same as Helen so I am magnificent too .!

[@georgeallen8781]

@@keithwilkins1437 haha, you totally are!

[@JollyGoodJewWitch]

That is a bloke. He is an AGP. JKR was/is right for being truthful. Helen Joyce is absolute right.

[@poochy]

What a profile picture

[@connor5669]

Agp? I assume that means you have intimate knowledge of their sex life? or are you just assuming

[@Herbie-in-CA]

@@connor5669 Debbie wrote a book and has publicly admitted to being AGP

[@connor5669]

@@Herbie-in-CA Lucy Clark, not debbie

[@patrickdalton2424]

@@connor5669 if Lucy Clark is not AGP then what is he??

[@Bookhermit]

Rowling has yet to go far enough. Nothing she says should even be in question.

[@LuciThomasHardylover-qx6ts]

Hear hear!!

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

If sex and gender were ever truly that simple.

[@richardskinner4198]

I wish I could help her ,I am not afraid to voice my own opinion of this woke cult and the poison that is being fed to the public too afraid to speak .

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

@@richardskinner4198 how is it woke? And having an opinion is OK, but it's not special just because you have an opinion

[@lizzieh5284]

Everybody's opinion should be questioned.It is callled free speech. Isnt that what everyone is going on about on here?

[@manusha1349]

Btw Helen Joyce has a formidable brain! Wow what a privilege to listen to her ❤

[@michelledavis2604]

You're funny

[@grunnionyon7655]

I don't trust trans identified people who pretend to be critical of an ideology in which they actively participate. JKR was absolutely right to expose that nonsense and the subsequent "outrage" surrounding that coach. Many female athletic teams have male coaches- but those men aren't pretending to be women and inserting themselves in locker rooms, shower rooms, etc. The illogical anger over JKR plainly stating that a straight, middle aged man IS a straight, middle-aged man needed to be exposed. The woman is a warrior. I love that Helen isn't afraid to speak plainly.

[@poochy]

Trans people are PRETENDING to be critical? Of what? The way their brains work? Of what that means for them? I should just be quiet, but this is just nonsense

[@honberg193]

There isn't a lot I agree with from Hayton. Hayton does share one half of a typology with the football coach. Unlike the majority of their side of the typology. Hayton is somewhat self Aware of how their dysphoria originated ( a heterosexual inversion ). Hayton recognises this. Has a rudimentary understanding of it. Hayton is supportive of women. Saying they are part of any ideology apart from Marxist Socialism is clinicaly an injustice. Unless your saying that Haytons clinical dysphoria, a sexual orientation, as now pointed out by such a Michael J Bailey, who is the leading reaercher, and expert in that side of the typology. Wheras gender critical beleifs are officially, and legaly now a beleif system. Based on radical feminists ideology, and philosophy. Anyone who has, or had one of the two types of dysphoria, is by definition in the purvue of science. As are any atypical sexual, be heterosexual, or homossexual orientation. Hayton does not beleive they are female , just an effective palative treatment in Haytons case, for which most of the non ideological population, accommodate . With Hayton their only beleif stem in regards to sexual orientation is in line with most gender critcal beleifs. That homosexual means a gay identity in 100% of cases. Irespective of how far the brain is pushed in the opposite sex direction, resulting in genuine dysphoria, or those with endocrine, or androgen insensitivity. I was raised to speak Truths. I'm also a lay scientist in the field of sexual orientation. Using " an ideogy ", in respect to Debbie's understand of their disorder, isn't by even a stretch, " an ideology "

[@buffalopauln]

Trans identified people have every right to enter into a debate that involves their identity/ideology. At least Debbie is interested in moving forward, rather than joining the more vitriolic trans rights activists. I think it’s unfair to say that someone with moderate views is untrustworthy. High profile celebrities commenting on gender issues, like J.K. Rowling know that every word they type is going to have an impact on Twitter. Rowling made a point that is absolutely valid, but did it in a snide and sarcastic way, so it’s not going to go down well with everyone. Better just to stick to the facts rather than try to be witty. It’s provocative. Maybe J.K. feels that she has the right to be provocative after all the horrible treatment she has had, but Debbie is right that posts like this inflame public opinion and don’t resolve things. Trans people still have to find their way in the world and exist with rights. Women’s rights should be paramount, but that doesn’t mean that trans people are less than human and don’t deserve consideration (even though some activists could make people feel this way). I don’t know anything about the trans manager of a women’s football team, but I don’t expect that they asked for a diversity award. Maybe they should have refused it, but instead of highlighting and shaming individuals, we should look towards the influential organisations, corporations and governing bodies that control society and are making decisions that are hurting women.

[@honberg193]

@@buffalopauln I'm only replying as you seem a reasonable and compassionate person. Both sides of this ideological war between two similar ideologies wish to simplify things as " trans ", which is like saying " birds are all the same ", Debbie was a heterosexual man who developed that type of dysphoria. Others are early onset, and attracted to men, and in many cases, indistinguishable on most levels from the female population. Some are just cross dressers hanging on the rights off others. There is only one way this will end. The existing rights of the tiny amount of transsexuals, ie full gender reasigment continue. With all others determined to be their un-adopted sex. The alternative ultimately will be a return to segregated spaces based on sexual orientation. That is the way it's heading.

[@buffalopauln]

@@honberg193​​⁠​⁠​⁠ I couldn’t agree more with you regarding the difference between early onset gay males as opposed to cross dressers hanging on the rights of others. I have lived as a gay man for 30 years. During that time, I’ve seen a total evolution of gay spaces. Even back then, I saw a few 50 something, 6ft 3, burly, married cross dressers socialising in bars (I suppose that they considered these to be safe spaces). They often enjoyed wearing very revealing clothing. My friends and I never gave this much consideration at the time, though we found it odd. However, over the years I became friends with two genuine transsexual people. They both started life as very slightly built, very effeminate gay males. One in particular had soft facial features without undergoing feminising surgery and before the hormones, surgery etc. They also had a natural 24 inch waist and 38 inch hip measurement - quite extraordinary. I suspect that this person had a hormonal imbalance because they developed in this way. Both these lovely individuals were shy and very gentle. Both absolutely ‘passed’. They used women’s toilets then because these were the only spaces that they could safely use (‘other’ gender toilets were not available at the time). I don’t think it occurred to them that they were infringing on women’s spaces because they were not voyeurs. They were not autogynophiles. They did not get a sexual thrill out of dressing as a woman, though dressing that way certainly made them feel a sense of self and belonging. I lost touch with them both over the years, but I can’t help wonder what life is like for them now and what they would think of this media and political circus. It’s a shame that the struggles of a few people with true dysmorphia have been eclipsed by this insanity of everyone hopping on the bandwagon, claiming anyone should be recognised as whatever they want to be. That might work for some imaginary, utopian state of total equality and harmony, but not for our world. I hope that the current hostile climate doesn’t have too much impact on the few, genuine, harmless, transsexuals who just want to live their lives peacefully.

[@inkoftheworld]

JKR just spittin' facts. JKR has suffered so much verbal abuse on twitter and such, she's just done taking it.

[@lavienestpasunlongfleuvetr2559]

No matter how much abuse women experience, misogynists still think they must always be 'nice'.

[@zapkvr]

Such what?

[@Paul2377]

I think anyone who tweets regularly gets abuse. I know I do. I don't think it gives me carte blanche to say whatever I like, though.

[@catherinehume9193]

She should have gone to the police when she got the first threat.

[@louiseford8678]

Debbie Hayton might not like JKR’s tone but millions of women love the fact that she’s said what she did. Hayton comes across as an incredibly patronising ‘pipe down dear’ man talking down to a woman.

[@errin-mp1zy]

Because thats' exactly what he is.

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

He’s groomed the children he teaches in school and then he started grooming GC women. JKR thought “enough of this” and ripped his mask off.

[@mogznwaz]

I usually have time for Debbie Hayton but if it comes to siding with women, or men dressing as women, I side with the former. Period. No pun intended ..

[@kifi672]

HE.

[@lizzieh5284]

So women are never patronising?

[@garyweglarz]

Is calling - "a man a man - and - a woman a woman" - "going too far?" : / Is that some kind of "trick question?"

[@ktwashere5637]

its the worst kind of Orwellian nightmare when speaking the truth is treated as a hate crime.

[@moniquemcgriskin652]

Kellie Jay Keen was right about "being kind" from the get go. A lot of us need to do more work on boundaries and wanting to be perceived as nice and reasonable. Good for you Helen for acknowledging the people that were right all along about where being polite would get us! You are brilliant.

[@unowen-nh9ov]

As I've heard a couple of women say recently, NO is a complete sentence.

[@liaminwales]

I used to help with local sports, we worked hard to make it safe for women. Men dressed as women is scaring a lot of women out, it's set back progress in sports in a big way.

[@errin-mp1zy]

I am glad it's scaring some women out, it's the one's its not scaring out we have to worry about, they do not understand about protecting their boundaries for their own safety. This is why they are grooming the kids in school, so they are not aware of their boundaries for protection, the adults that are going along with this are shameful, ignorant abusers.

[@susiegreaves7283]

In the Labour Party, Women's sections started to be headed by trans women (eg men) I never went to the meetings precisely because I was uncomfortable with this idea. I think many women here in Nottingham steered clear of the Women's section but they disappeared silently so again, the aggressive behaviour of some trans activists has had a profound effect on our politics.

[@angelawest9759]

Helen Joyce is such an intellectual and an amazing role model for woman.

[@SolomonChris-bt1my]

You’re right about that ❤️

[@ytb40]

She is gorgeous. So intelligent, so clear in her explanations. And I also love how she has let her beautiful hair grow so long and proudly shows off with her magnificient and so very well cared mane. Another point where she breaks free from absurd social restrictions on women. "Mature" ladies should not wear long hair? Not with Helen. And she looks even more fantastic and elegant with her wonderful long hair...

[@SolomonChris-bt1my]

@@ytb40 how you on google chat 💬

[@ytb40]

@@SolomonChris-bt1my no i am not on Google chat, sorry

[@SolomonChris-bt1my]

@@ytb40 how you on Facebook or instagram?

[@Hickalum]

The BBC were talking about “Birthing People” yesterday on Radio 4 (Monday) … I turned it off.

[@janemacdonald3732]

As a WOMAN who gave birth to 2 other humans and stood behind them while they grew into decent, honest hard working adults I'd just like to say 'I AM WOMAN. HEAR ME ROAR'. Now get out of my private space😠

[@debbielondon1809]

Arrgghhh! Don"t be Woke - wake up BBC!

[@sgb6476]

We need to be vigilant, this is far from over, the ideology has woven itself into everything

[@errin-mp1zy]

@@springwood1331 They will never stop, they have groomed children to trans via CBEEBIES to back down now would make them culpable, thats a hard pill to swallow.

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

Believe it or not it’s progress; during Covid women were referred to as “birthing bodies” which also applies to dogs and other animals.

[@marieparker3822]

To all the Daves of this World: women are sick of having our empathy weaponised against us. *NO MORE*!

[@Neo_Red_Pill]

We stand with J. K. Rowling and Helen Joyce🙏

[@glyn1212]

interesting choice of pronoun

[@lynt4890]

@@glyn1212 let me guess, you're a pink haired, women hating activist.

[@glyn1212]

@ConnieWobbles you need to use the first person singular, because there is only one of you. (Welcome)

[@MichelleDavis-xk8rc]

You mean ignorance and prejudice?

[@lynt4890]

@@MichelleDavis-xk8rc there's nothing ignorant or prejudiced about saying men can't be women no matter how you try to frame it.

[@impossibleagent3663]

Saying a that middle aged, white, straight man is not a victory for diversity nor for women, is actually just plain truth.

[@VAMR-vc7xg]

What on earth is a victory for diversity anyway? Can anyone explain that? A man gets into the ladies loos and that is a victory for diversity? The world has gone crazy.

[@tubester4567]

The trans activists are much more aggressive and vitriolic. They have been piling on anyone who dares to disagree and calling them nazis,

[@scg7092]

It's impossible to not offend a person who wants to feel offended. So why bother trying?

[@yesnomaybeso3220]

As far as I'm concerned, regarding this topic, when people say " Be Kind" they mean "Be a doormat". Enough is enough & women have had enough of this insanity.

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

I was so duped. I even used wrong sex pronouns until Maria MacLachlan explained the harm it caused. I had no idea.

[@neige4221]

The irony of this issue though could probably be traced back to woman’s movement for equality at the beginning of the 1900’s, so what do we have now?; the word woman is some sort of a minefield that most avoid. Have women made a huge mistake by saying that they are equal to men when now that is turned on them by men saying that they are women just by feeling like they are. Be careful what you wish for.

[@will121]

For God's sake stop giving this strange man all this publicity. Dave speaks for nobody but himself

[@janemacdonald3732]

🤣🤣🤣Dave speaks for no-one but himself, is that Dave the troll or the shimbo who manages a female football team 🤔

[@jac6727]

@@janemacdonald3732HA!!! That was awesome!! 🤣

[@markburns2621]

How? The ad hominem attacks, trolling and general hypocrisy has been the entire trans position online the entire time.

[@sgb6476]

@@janemacdonald3732 😂😂 what’s a shimbo

[@InterstellarDreams]

The scary thing is, while there's a LOT of people that he doesn't speak for..? He's also managed to VERY successfully groom / infiltrate / manipulate huge parts of the GC movement! To the point that he's even got supposed feminists white-knighting for him, siding with him over hardliners like Kellie-Jay Keen, (she and other hardline TERFs have been treated VERY badly, by many of these self-declared so-called "feminists", who will readily sell out women to protect "nice" AGPs), and going so far as to call him "she", and let him use women's spaces! Because oh, he's a supposed "good one", and at least he does not DEMAND it! He's been playing people SO hard, and made a lot of supposed GCs sell out, and support the exact OPPOSITE of what they claim to stand for! Which has also further fractured the movement! He is an absolute SNAKE, in every way!! ..This matters. Because we can't let it happen again, and people need to REMEMBER it! Plus I think a lot of these so-called "feminists" who sold out real women, who actually sided with their fellow WOMEN, for the sake of AGP men..? Need to be held accountable for it! As they utterly failed at feminism 101, in this case! And they really owe us supposedly super mean, nasty and uncompromising "Ultra" TERFs / GCs, who stay true to our principles, and refuse to call ANY man "she", a goddamn apology! I think ESPECIALLY in the case of Kellie-Jay Keen. Apologize to her, and I'll see that as an apology to ALL of us hardliners. In which case, I guess it would be best for people to forgive and move on, for the sake of CONTINUING to fight this fight. But yes.. they really need to be held accountable!! And AGP men need to stop being "included" in this movement, constantly given platforms to speak, etc. Just.. NO!! Obviously, we can't keep them from speaking. But they are NOT on the side of women, and we should not pretend like they are.

[@MahaFreja]

Oh look, a man telling a woman what she should or shouldn't care about. And to watch her tone. Groundbreaking.

[@hoppetosse8]

I didn't find it patronizing - only trying to find a middle ground and just being more defensive. Also they were only saying their point of view. Why do people always think that giving an opinion is putting down the other side? I get Debbie points, especially making this person a victim which they are not, but also agree more with Helens point of view. Love Helens bright and logical mind.

[@lovelover4408]

GROUNDBREAKING

[@Sarara-mv5sx]

@@hoppetosse8 There is no "otherside" - transwomen are men.

[@hoppetosse8]

@@Sarara-mv5sx Not what I said. But well. you do you. Also Debbie Hayton doesn't deny that.

[@michelledavies2197]

​@@Sarara-mv5sx👏👏👏👏

[@Bibirallie]

No JK Rowling hasn’t gone too far. Debbie Hayton is playing the long game, to strip women of their rights by playing nice. They fight for an inch, but their goal is to take a mile. If you can’t see it, then I bet you are also probably confused by how we got here. Debbie thinks there are bigger battles because he as a man doesn’t understand where women are coming from.

[@Lycaerix]

Exactly. Hayton is a reminder that even amongst otherwise sensible people, they will find a way to perform the mental gymnastics required to make excuses for atrocious behaviours, beliefs, and people.

[@laf4891]

I absolutely agree. He showed his true colours. It’s all gone too far for him and he wants it to stop.

[@lindalaw5466]

Dave is gaslighting on a low heat…….

[@lindalaw5466]

@@laf4891if that was true, he’d say”I’m Dave” .

[@laf4891]

@@lindalaw5466 he’s an AGP he’ll never say that. He’s saying that the battle is over. It isn’t.

[@GreenWhitePurple]

Brilliant final point from Helen. Women’s rights are human rights too.

[@annascantlebury444]

No, the battles have not largely been won. Inroads have been made, skirmishes have been won, but this is still all out war, fighting for women's rights and child safeguarding. Complacency is not an option, though trans people will hope we'll take our foot of the gas. We won't. We've heard enough from men, especially those in frocks. Thankyou again HJ and JKR for sanity, for fighting and for your persistence

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

Well said!

[@Paul2377]

It'll be interesting to see what happens, though. One of the arguments against Stonewall was that once gay rights had been won, they had to branch into other things to stay relevant. The same will be true with the GC movement. Once they've won, they won't just say "job done, let's stop!" Much of the GC movement is being infiltrated by those on the right and they are absolutely coming for the LGB next, mark my words. We're already seeing anti gay male rhetoric among their talking points already (especially when it comes to attacking drag queens, who are mostly gay men, and implying they're "after the children").

[@Madoldcatlady]

J.K.Rowlings tweet is absolutely perfect. Her sarcasm cuts straight through all the BS to the crux of the matter. 'Sex Matters'

[@goa9034]

JKR has not gone far enough

[@tayag9223]

@The Spectator first of all Mr hayton is a man and should be referred to as such. He talks the talk but is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I still remember the hurt on his wife’s face in that awful documentary made by Stella o Mally. Jkr speaks for all of us hard working women. She is a hero.

[@elliec4154]

No. JK is a modern heroine who protects women and children. She is one of the few brave enough to do it.

[@celteuskara]

Rich enough. The ordinary man or woman will have their lives destroyed, such is the enemy we are up against. Eff You Money is the only way past this, same with Trump.

[@alisonjenner5821]

Once you’re retired, you are also impossible to cancel.

[@joycemanning1254]

Good for her! This trans nonsense needs to stop!

[@elliec4154]

@@celteuskara Yes her richness protects her, I'm so glad she uses the power she has others don't to protect them when it would be so easy for her to just walk away, that she says it first so others can go after, that she ofters to protect any who say what she does and don't have her clout to protect her from the police being sent after her.

[@neige4221]

@@celteuskara So true. A normal person could lose their job if they speak the truth nowadays, fortunately for J. K. Rowling she doesn’t need to worry about that issue.

[@carolebrown-op7jg]

Interesting he claims JKR telling the truth risks “losing everything we’ve tried to achieve”. Who is your “we”, Sir? I wouldn’t assume David Heyton is trying to achieve the same things we are. He wants to be the exception, the cross-dressing man we’re prepared to lie for, and he is not.

[@fraserreal8496]

Helen here is -- as usual -- on point, measured, astute, correct. Time for Hayton to step out of the discussion of 'transgender'. He has no credibility, whatsoever. He's totally incapable of hearing anything Helen Joyce is saying.

[@Paul2377]

The reverse appeared to be true, as well. Helen said a few times "I'm sure Debbie and I agree on X" then when on to completely disagree. Both have fully made their minds up and weren't listening to one another.

[@ribbonsofnight]

@@Paul2377 What is happening is that Debbie is the the sort to say one thing and then go back on it and say something different. So Helen is right, Debbie will agree with everything Helen says, and then say something contradictory because he's contradictory.

[@janeawdry8182]

And he never actually answered a single question. Listen carefully & you’ll find he skirts round every point with word salad. And anyway, he apparently is a ‘trans’ person - is it just me or is he playing some kind of mind game here? How can he agree with women who say that a man who ‘identifies’ as a woman is a man, when he calls himself ‘Debbie’ & presents as a stereotype woman? And says ‘we’ when referring to women? The hypocrisy is staggering. I wonder which toilet he uses?

[@michelledavies2197]

​@janeawdry8182 it's crazy shit, he us a man and should not enter women spaces, sick of this bs.

[@Lycaerix]

I don't think Helen Joyce or JK Rowling go far enough. Still far too gentle and far too kind to people who would never afford them anywhere near the same gentility or kindness.

[@nforne]

It would certainly be fun to watch but what strategic advantage would it bring us?

[@lisac1619]

​@@nfornewhere has kindness got us??

[@nforne]

@@lisac1619 That doesn’t answer the question.

[@jibberism9910]

@@nforne no, but it does show it to be a silly question. The strategic advantage it would bring is to not try and fight their BS on their terms, but ours.

[@nforne]

@@jibberism9910 When we’re mean to them they lean into their fake victimhood and use our words to persuade reasonable-minded people not to listen to us. And for what? What have we gained?

[@DaraDione]

Yes, agree 100% with Helen Joyce on what she said. I was kind and polite, as well, but as a woman I'm done with that.

[@HellCatt0770]

We are sick of being told to be kind, be quiet. We do not care what Dobby or any other ideologue thinks. We are saying No. and I’m eternally grateful to HJ and JKR and many other women for standing the line.

[@メビウスメビウス-d7r]

David Hayton is a man, AGP. I stand with JKR.

[@davidtuer5825]

He's a man with mental problems. He needs help to see the reality of his untenable position and to understand that the answers to his problems lie not in adopting such a position but to realising that those answers are not reached by fantasy.

[@butterflywings-lk9fu]

You mean that's not a beautiful woman I see before me? wonders will never cease!

[@harveyneedleman817]

Debbie Hayton is one of the saner voices in this debate

[@altudy]

Thank you for for your insightful observation. I should point out that 'Debbie' Hayton has already said this on multiple occasions, that he is a biological male, that he is AGP, that trans women are not actually real women and that they should not have access to women's spaces. Given that he is pretty much in agreement with JKR and Helen Joyce I really don't understand why people continue to pursue him instead of the deniers. It's a waste of energy.

[@MiniT-x8q]

Why did he write an article then trying to police women's words and tone in this discussion?

[@carontownsend9890]

so here we have another man, Hayton, yet again telling women how they should speak and what they can say. Frankly he can do the other

[@johnjosmith42]

JK Rowling has been exemplary. People will be reading admiringly about her actions during this time - when the majority were threatened into silence by a pernicious ideology - in a hundred, two hundred years from now. Helen Joyce too is formidable, along with Kathleen Stock. I cannot praise these women highly enough. Genuine, individual, hard-won bravery, as opposed to the so-called bravery of the crowd.

[@maryknox3337]

Not forgetting Posie Parker, the bravest of them all.

[@uknpdsurvivor660]

100% agree, also Maya & Alison Bailey

[@louiseparker1915]

Kellie Jay Keene is a true hero!!

[@johnjosmith42]

@joce11 beautifully said; I’ve so much respect for this take. thank you.

[@Paul2377]

Haha I really can't think that people will be talking about Helen Joyce in 200 years time. I sense if we're even still here then there will be bigger fish to fry...

[@thelamington8195]

Helen Joyce is a ROCK STAR! ❣️

[@1Trollcat]

David is self proclaimed AGP, so a very mentally ill man. Long live JK Rowling!

[@lindalaw5466]

A domestic abuser via gaslighting his family, and his employers

[@littleboots9800]

Who was an adviser on rewriting policy for schools that placed boys in girls toilets and had his students using she/her and Mrs.

[@ivanlondon]

Are you an expert here affirming someone is mentally ill? Or just a bigot I suspect

[@ApacheMagic]

Helen just keeps getting better, more concise, straight to the point. Just so awesome.

[@carltaylor6452]

Please don't call Debbie 'she' - you are just making yourselves look very silly. This is exactly the point JKR is making: women need to be able to identify men, irrespective of how those men present to the outside world or how they feel inside. JKR simply pointed out that there's nothing special about a middle-aged bloke being a football coach. It was not a personal attack on Clark (although of course he perceived it that way); it was a statement of fact.

[@JohnSmith-be1vl]

Debbie has been very open that they are really male, though, so I do agree to an extent. but it seems that most people don't seem to know that Debbie is actually opposed to trans-bullshit.

[@Whitsundial]

​@@JohnSmith-be1vl Dave Hayton is manipulating you, the narrative, the media.

[@BelissaCohen]

@@JohnSmith-be1vl If he's "opposed to trans bullshit," why does he insist on using female language for himself? He isn't as opposed as he wants you to think he is. He has you completely groomed. When journalists lie about the most basic facts anyone can see, we stop believing them on everything. The media is lying to us and expecting us to continue to trust them.

[@fabbie3862]

@@JohnSmith-be1vlah but Hayton has also said he thinks it’s unkind to call TW “men” so no doubt Hayton secretly dislikes being referred to as “he/him” too.

[@lainey7985]

@@JohnSmith-be1vlIt’s an act. He’s only there to make sure that whatever rights women gain back, are acceptable to AGPs.

[@user-iy3jh8wf1s]

The clarity in which Helen Joyce puts her points across is outstanding.

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

She has a mathematical brain breathtaking in its clarity and erudition. I am in total awe of her.

[@slacktoryrecords4193]

@@catherinerobilliard7662me too. I think she might be the greatest woman alive, currently? I’m only slightly exaggerating/joking.

[@Paul2377]

To be fair, it's all she talks about. When the gay marriage debate was raging on in the UK I debated it with *many* people, so it got to the point that I had heard every argument against it hundreds of times. That meant I had a lot of opportunities to put forward every counter argument multiple times, fine tuning them as I went. It therefore became impossible for me to be flummoxed in said debate, because I knew it inside out.

[@greigsanderson]

Facts are facts. Biology is Biology.

[@simama...xox..]

As Ben Shapiro says: Facts don't care about your feelings 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@debsmith5520]

6:41 Biology is biology until TERF women say it's not, then the demand privilege and unfettered access to spaces men have earned.

[@topcat1358]

As Robert Burns said - "A man's a man for a' that"

[@neige4221]

XX or XY, that’s it.

[@mewho6199]

So Mr. Hayton's problem with Rowling's tweet is not the underlying message but the tone, the cleverness, the sassiness? Rowling isn't showing the proper deference that a female human should show to a male human.

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

Bingo!

[@fabbie3862]

Also Hayton has said previously he thinks it’s unkind to call TW “men”.

[@cathyg7767]

Diversity and delusion are 2 different things.

[@rachellandry3116]

but BOY HOWDY have we got a diversity of delusions goin' on! lol who needs the side show when we got "pride" month? 🤡🤡🤡🏳️‍🌈🤡🤡🤡

[@dcollins4679]

Really? Because "Woman" is being diversified to include deluded men.

[@MinnieNhi]

We need more people like JK Rowling and Helen Joyce to continue speak out! Well said Helen Joyce!

[@user-ld7uj9pv8e]

JKR absolutely on point with her comment. Context of man claiming to represent women and his 'diversity'. The worst kind of Trans invaders are those who claim to represent women.

[@BelissaCohen]

The saddest thing about this discussion is the host referring to Mr. Hayton, who is clearly male, as "she." I feel very, very sorry for her that's she's so captured by an obvious falsehood. When people who call themselves journalists can so easily lie about the most basic truths, how can we trust that they aren't lying when it comes to other issues?

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

It may be a courtesy as AGP’s like women to “Be Kind” and, as the indomitable Helen Joyce stated, the “or else” is silent.

[@ebrearley3134]

This man accusing women of being “emotional” is some cheek. He is an AGP.

[@dragonfox2.058]

And shows he is still a man. I can't believe he went there!

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

Good grief, that old chestnut. Labelled “emotional” held women back from being journalists and newscasters for decades, then when they were finally let in, criticised mostly by men on their looks.

[@sifridbassoon]

sorry, I don't know that acronym AGP. What does it stand for?

[@dragonfox2.058]

@@sifridbassoon Autogynephile- it's when men get turned on pretending to be women. It's a sexual fetish

[@apebass2215]

​@@sifridbassoon autogynephile

[@Anita1984isuponus]

Dave telling women what they can say and how they should say it.

[@evieshore3270]

Man's gonna splain.

[@anthonygee6568]

Born a bloke, will always be a bloke and no amount of drugs or butchery can alter that,

[@michelledavies2197]

👏👏👏👏👏

[@RuthLivingstone]

Being “kind” got us into this mess. Truth matters, and language needs to be truthful.

[@JamesHartnell]

The rest of us aren't going far enough.

[@Catherine-2008]

Debbie's pronouns are he/him. He has publicly stated he is fine with people using accurate pronouns. Kellie-Jay was correct when she spoke about this a few days ago.

[@robdavies8751]

Thank you Catherine, i was about to say something similar but you beat me to it 🙂

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

But “Be Kind”, after all - what harm can it do? And we fell for it.

[@Vanadisir]

She's a writer, her insults will be wordy, lingual and witty. Thank god!

[@glyn1212]

except they arent

[@Vanadisir]

@@glyn1212 Thanks for your input sunshine.

[@Vanadisir]

@@glyn1212* *Except they aren't* At least use grammar when insulting writers.

[@glyn1212]

@@Vanadisir I can't, she passed away

[@Vanadisir]

@glyn1212 While you are working on your reading comprehension, you could also take a basics course on comedic delivery.

[@FiredUpFeminist]

Leave it to a man, AKA Dave, to publicly chastise a brilliant woman for her manner and method of speech. J.K. Rowling has her own agency and doesn’t require any man’s unsolicited advice - especially from one in a dress.

[@rustyshackleford9230]

Every time someone calls him Debbie a little clown nose honks in my head it’s all so mad

[@PoliticalRegality]

Calling this bloke 'She' .... from the start you lost us. He is a bloke, enough with pretending.

[@Yaarrr]

Debbie seems happy for JK to say that all transwomen are men, but not that any specific transwoman is a man, seemingly because it's rude. I can only surmise that it hits home because Debbie doesn't anyone to say he is a man. Sadly it's something he'll need to get over.

[@ApacheMagic]

I don’t think Debbie has any illusions there tbh. Debbie knows he’s a man. I’m glad Debbie is part of the conversation, because surely not all trans people are the deluded loudmouth truthphobes that they seem to be? Hating on him is not rational nor helpful. I hate the word transphobic, it always is preceded by ‘I feel that this is…’ which annoys the heck out of me (how you feel has nothing to do with my words or intentions if that’s what you’re getting) but if transphobia itself actually exists as a terrible thing (I honestly can’t tell because from where I stand it seems to mean ‘speaking truth about biology’) it would definitely include hatefully excluding from conversation and badmouthing a person just because they are trans. That’s not on. If he didn’t make his points we would not have anything to argue against, if he has good ones we need to hear them and if he has poor ones we need to hear them in order to address them. As Debbie is one of the few from the other side that are brave and honest enough to engage, we ought to encourage him. Dialogue is vital. I personally think Debbie means well, I see no sinister ‘long game.’

[@sgb6476]

@@ApacheMagic I think he should defend real women more and realise we have been upset and offended by his gang of boys for far too long, then maybe we’d cut him some slack, he really has no idea what it is to be a woman

[@lindalaw5466]

If Dave really knows he’s a man, why does he insist on being called Debbie?

[@littleboots9800]

​@@ApacheMagicDave is a self admitteded fetishist. He wrote and advised on school policy that put boys in girls toilets in schools. He is not an "ally" to the movement for sex based rights.

[@ut0p1an]

Dave is a self-confessed AGP. Calling him Debbie tickles his pickle.

[@pamelaroyce5285]

Helen Joyce’s final remark needs to be addressed in more of these interviews. Good exchange, well balanced. And thankfully brief. Thank you, Spectator.

[@audreywoodward]

Man says 'woman has gone too far'. Thats your headline. Thats it.

[@evieshore3270]

Exactly !!!

[@lovelover4408]

Can you believe, for the first time ever in history, that men have a problem with feminists?? SHOCKING, really

[@catamountain]

There are two types of humans: males and females. No human has ever switched sex and people have the right to point this out, as JK Rowling was doing in her tongue-in-cheek way. Ive several reasons for refusing to call a man a woman or a woman a man, the main one being my religous views on the matter.

[@glyn1212]

"Magic grandpa told me there are only 2 genders" .OK.

[@lisac1619]

​@@glyn1212There are only two SEXES. Stop using the word gender, you cultist.

[@impossibleagent3663]

HJ absolutely nailed it again. Broke through the fog of nonsense like a ray of light.

[@mikalina1]

"Debbie" is offensive to women and girls and if it wasn't for the great Helen Joyce, i definitely wouldn't be watching. Get rid of him, TS!

[@mk4922]

💯. The ONLY reason to watch this interview is to see Helen school that man in a bad wig. Glad I got past the temptation to turn it off when the interviewer called this man 'she'. Absolutely sick of being gas lit Women say NO. That's a MAN

[@markfinnigan4650]

So JK Rowling says the truth and that’s playing with fire? Give me a break

[@shelleyscloud3651]

Ha! Sorry but JK’s comment was *chefs kiss*

[@smp7413]

Lol. He's furious with Helen. Look at him blinking rapidly after her first rebuffle. JKR was responding to a newspaper article not a twitter post. It was about their inability to report the truth and frame it as a diversity win for women.

[@deal2live]

No matter what and how you say it people will claim victimhood! JK was very 'side eyed' and slightly indirect! It was brilliant! JK is less polite now , especially after her underlings that are now celebrities have lead a movement to cancel Her, need to hear cutting sharp words!!

[@phasis]

💯 for Helen Joyce. And Hayton has obviously not gotten over his male entitlement, to mansplain. And Hayton is wrong. The war is far from won.

[@errin-mp1zy]

He likes to tell us it is, because he knows when Labour get in, we are in the shite

[@lancewalker2595]

You still don't realize that feminists pigeon holing men as the enemy is the psychological impetus behind AGPs, so ironic and yet so typical. You can't expect men and boys to accept themselves as shit without some kind of cost, and this is exactly what that looks like; you can't have your feminist cake and eat it too, contrary to what your female entitlement tells you.

[@Paul2377]

Mansplain now seems to mean "a man can't disagree with a woman, if he does then he's just mansplaining". Okey doke.

[@lonetown]

It's hard to argue that the trans movement is not a coercive movement. In the US we have a Supreme Court Justice who famously declined to define a woman.

[@pendorran]

Because she's not stupid enough to hand the Republican hacks a phony issue to hide behind.

[@LillianStead]

The Spectator interviewer called Dave "she" even though Dave has stated thàt he is a man and he doesn't mind if people use his correct pronoun. Why??

[@leelybuckwheatjr]

Maybe because she's young and terrified of damaging her journalism career

[@debbie9493]

Keep speaking j.k❤

[@seizetheday9546]

Boom! Helen drops the mic once again🎯

[@Dianasaurus2403]

Helen delivers her message so eloquently

[@impossibleagent3663]

Wow HJ ended with a giant truth bomb!!! Nailed it!!!

[@lynnebarnes3840]

Helen Joyce dismantles this nonsense with surgical precision.

[@WaterandDustWalking]

Until we are free to call a man a man (which neither insults nor mocks him) then no battles are won - there's no freedom without the freedom to speak a simple truth. The critique of JK Rowling is the old "tolerate a lie because you should be kind" line - which is what led to everything getting ridiculous and going too far.

[@Paul2377]

You already are free to do that, though. JK did, for example!

[@ribbonsofnight]

@@Paul2377 Well give us all a few million and we'll all have no fear of losing our job. She can say what she wants because the only consequence left is more of the same abuse.

[@Paul2377]

@@ribbonsofnight I'd be happy for JK to share her millions out. :)

[@jak4bud]

@psantini2968 I'm always amused at how the "be kind" is a one-way system. We have to care about men's feelings whilst they give not a toss for our reality.

[@aslig5212]

Debbie Hayton dedicating an entire article to criticise one sarcastic but polite tweet by J.K. Rowling - especially when the subject of the tweet had been insulting her on Twitter for years without JKR ever replying back - is at best disingenuous.

[@hayley7090]

I absolutely ❤ Helen!

[@montalineberger4743]

Thank God for women like J.K. Rowling and Helen Joyce. They speak the truth bravely and eloquently.

[@KitschKiss-pi8wp]

It wasn't almost sarcastic, it was sarcasm. You couldn't make the irony of it up

[@thelamington8195]

While ‘Debbie’ is more often than not a rational ‘trans’ person to speak with, he is still a man - and it’s FACTUALLY INCORRECT to refer to him as “she”. And JK Rowling is a HERO!

[@markburns2621]

"Rational 'trans' person". What's an oxymoron, again?

[@markh.876]

Do you have a problem with people calling ships or countries "she"?

[@lesmunro2952]

​@@markh.876no, cos they don't want access to single sex spaces, womens sports .....how would you feel if women said they are a man and went onto tell men about men's spaces?

[@markh.876]

@@lesmunro2952 Feminist protests ended men having their own spaces and clubs long ago. Why should I care about women? You voted for left-wing parties, you made your bed, now lie in it.

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

@@markh.876no we didn’t, men’s clubs are still there. We ended the male clubs populated with the echelons of society, parliament and industry, which discussed important issues of the day, and excluded women from hearing or having their voice heard. We also had the temerity to demand access to pubs and sporting venues and not just be restricted to Dance Halls, Bingo Halls and the Cinema. Then we had the audacity to demand our own toilets and changing rooms and refused the occasional offer to share the male facilities. Some golf courses still only allowed women access on Wednesday afternoons, so we built our own. How very dare we!

[@jones6119]

More lovely Helen Joyce. What a gem.

[@Genderwang]

JKR has a sense of humour, unlike Hayton. Her tweet was funny, really just gentle ribbing, not "sarcastic" and "nasty". Helen Joyce is wonderfully rational and clear, as usual. So glad she got the last word - powerful message to end on!

[@sueedwards9334]

JKR is only getting started in her stand for women, I’m hoping. David Hatton is getting worried now that women are standing up to liars and cheats like him.

[@sgb6476]

Is that Debbie’s real name?

[@errin-mp1zy]

@@sgb6476 Well, it's not Debbie is it 🤣

[@carolebrown-op7jg]

Heyton

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

@@sgb6476his name is Dave Hayton, schoolteacher and he’s been grooming children and GC women. J K Rowling just wasn’t going to be one of them, and now neither will we.

[@ribbonsofnight]

@@carolebrown-op7jg he is more of a hate on person than a hat on person

[@VAMR-vc7xg]

Helen Joyce is the best speaker on this issue ever. I love her.

[@mbartmess295]

I think sarcasm is appropriate in this case. It makes the point very well.

[@StarryTowers]

Helen Joyce is wonderful, she and JKR speak for me 💚🤍💜

[@author4you443]

Many battles won, but the culture war rages on - Well done JK, Helen & Co 👏

[@marieparker3822]

Helen Joyce is THE GOAT! INCOMPARABLE!😂

[@lco7080]

No, she hasnt. Next question

[@heretik111]

Thank god for JKR and HJ and their like. Intelligent, articulate, real women speaking for the hard won rights of real women. Soft spoken warriors.

[@MariaTorres-hc5uq]

What's with the weird bloke called "Debbie"?

[@littleboots9800]

Just getting his 15 minutes of being called she/her to indulge his fetish.

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

His name is Dave Hayton, he’s an AGP, a misogynist and a groomer, as well as a schoolteacher