Helen Pluckrose on confronting Critical Theory | Solutions With David Ansara Podcast #32

In this episode of the 'Solutions With David Ansara' podcast, I speak with British writer Helen Pluckrose about the pernicious influence of Critical Theory, and how to push back against these dangerous ideas.
Helen and I discuss the postmodern origins of Critical Theory, and how it escaped the ivory tower of academia to become mainstream. This has dramatically altered the way we talk about race, gender and sexuality, she says.
Helen argues that what passes for 'Social Justice' is in fact a fundamentally illiberal and intolerant ideology. Its adherents suppress free speech, foster a culture of victimhood and essentialise people's experience based on their identity and 'positionality'.
We explore alternative (liberal) approaches to social justice, and also discuss the practical steps that ordinary people can take to counteract 'wokeness' in the workplace or other institutions.
TIMESTAMPS
(00:00) Intro
(00:30) Helen Pluckrose on postmodernism
(04:08) Helen Pluckrose on the emergence of Critical Theory
(07:26) Helen Pluckrose on liberal approaches to social justice
(11:17) Helen Pluckrose on the problems with 'wokeness'
(13:23) Helen Pluckrose on how Critical Theory went mainstream
(17:54) Helen Pluckrose on Critical Theory in universities
(21:10) Helen Pluckrose on the influence of Marxism on Critical Theory
(25:26) Helen Pluckrose on Critical Race Theory
(29:26) Helen Pluckrose on CRT in the workplace
(37:04) Helen Pluckrose on the culture of victimhood
(38:52) Helen Pluckrose on Western Civilisation and the Enlightenment
(43:57) Helen Pluckrose on the right-wing reaction to CRT
(46:37) Helen Pluckrose on counteracting CRT activism
(53:50) Conclusion
RESOURCES
BOOK: Helen Pluckrose & James Lindsay, 'Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender, and Identity-and Why This Harms Everybody' (2020): www.amazon.com/Cynical-Theori...
WEB: counterweightsupport.com/

[@DavidAnsara]

TIMESTAMPS (00:00) Intro (00:30) Helen Pluckrose on postmodernism (04:08) Helen Pluckrose on the emergence of Critical Theory (07:26) Helen Pluckrose on liberal approaches to social justice (11:17) Helen Pluckrose on the problems with 'wokeness' (13:23) Helen Pluckrose on how Critical Theory went mainstream (17:54) Helen Pluckrose on Critical Theory in universities (21:10) Helen Pluckrose on the influence of Marxism on Critical Theory (25:26) Helen Pluckrose on Critical Race Theory (29:26) Helen Pluckrose on CRT in the workplace (37:04) Helen Pluckrose on the culture of victimhood (38:52) Helen Pluckrose on Western Civilisation and the Enlightenment (43:57) Helen Pluckrose on the right-wing reaction to CRT (46:37) Helen Pluckrose on counteracting CRT activism (53:50) Conclusion RESOURCES BOOK: Helen Pluckrose & James Lindsay, 'Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender, and Identity-and Why This Harms Everybody' (2020): www.amazon.com/Cynical-Theories-Scholarship-Everything-Identity_and/dp/1634312023 WEB: counterweightsupport.com/

[@Parrotgirl-Tattoo]

This is a wonderful interview. I admire Helen Pluckrose for her bravery & non biased explanation on this topic. It's bad enough knowing that some of us will have people trying to label us as racist, but knowing that I can confidently quote Helen & James Lindsay puts me at ease. Both sides of this argument have gotten way out of hand, so its nice to have intelligent & eloquent people explaining it to us normal people. Bless you David. ♾❤

[@eddysgaming9868]

Only a little over 4k views? Such a great interview, so many more need to see this.

[@howmanybeansmakefive]

Thank you Helen, you're voice is such a guiding light in cutting through the cultural chasm of woke vs reactionary right, whether on race, gender, science, or enlightenment values. As a british-pakistani gay ex-muslim, I've never heard someone able to reflect my perspective before without falling into the political football/tropes on the left/right, both as a south asian in the UK regarding taking an honest non-ideological approach to history, racism, and colonialism, as well as a commitment to enlightenment values, and scientific/pragmatic progress.

[@ciganyweaverandherperiwink6293]

She's terrific. I click on any thumbnails that feature her wonderfully compelling visage. Great interview David, well done.

[@kingclover1395]

It is outrageous that this is in the workplace now. There is no way I would ever go along with it. Who do they think they are forcing people to think and say things that they don't agree with? You can't do that. It sounds like Mao's China or the old Soviet Union. How is this even legal?

[@ciganyweaverandherperiwink6293]

@@kingclover1395 I could chat for hours with likeminded folks about the insanity of our species in 2023. I love hearing stories about first hand experiences, ideas, points of view and so forth-- the more transgressive, creative, challenging and idiosyncratic the better. Sadly, so much of our intended conversation just wouldn't be permitted on social media, a statement of fact which ties in perfectly with your comment.

[@margaretmaeda2548]

It’s so good to see a good non-aggressive interviewer.

[@lawrencemckellar10]

Thank you David for bringing us this information.

[@Frederer59]

That was a beautiful interview. Of all the critics of CRT Helen is at the top of the list. The slow march has arrived and Helen enables us to meet it head-on with a smile rather than a club. Exposing and calmingly deconstructing the plain silliness of it using it's own self-contradictions is the way to go. Cynical Theories and her new book should be required texts. A children's book would be absolutely fantastic.

[@just1689]

Wow, what a whirlwind tour of some weighty issues today. Thank you Helen and David

[@DavidAnsara]

A whirlwind tour indeed! Thanks for the great feedback, Justin.

[@AdrienLegendre]

Instructing students to use evidence based reasoning is teaching critical reasoning; instructing students to follow an ideology is indoctrination.

[@svitlana1500]

Wow it was very interesting . I didn’t expect to watch the whole interview but couldn’t stop. Thank you

[@Zamo14]

I can see David did his "homework" , very very well prepared...great interview!!

[@DavidAnsara]

Thanks Sergio. Yes, I had to do some serious prep for this important topic. I would highly recommend grabbing a copy of 'Cynical Theories', which explores these themes in even greater detail.

[@postalizeMike]

Very easy to follow conversation. Thank you!

[@DEWwords]

Everyone who grew up in a fundamentalist church has lived through all this at least once before. ---Terrific vid.

[@eb2890]

As a teacher, I appreciate this informative discussion. Also love Dr James Lindsay.

[@damiangriffiths7801]

I went to an unconsciousness bias training session. We were asked to put ourselves in a group based on what identity we had, and talk about how we had been victims by virtue of being in that group. As a white male who is in IT, I talked about having been accused of being autistic by a number of women. I have no diagnosis of autism, and believe that the women who have said this were trying to shut down discussion and override what I am saying through their bogus "diagnosis". This point was taken very seriously by the group, and I found that I had really achieved real victimhood status. I felt really pleased with myself. Having seen this interview, I am now wondering if endorsing my victimhood was just a ruse to get me involved in their agenda to persuade me I am racist. To be honest, I did leave the group thinking I am probably a bit racist, but I felt far less shame about the idea of being racist, as according to them everyone is a bit. Plus, I get to be a victim! Win-win in my book. Maybe those years of reading Foucault in university in the early 90s had finally paid off

[@safetifying]

Excellent. Thank you.

[@ralphwebster8318]

Very interesting insights

[@DavidAnsara]

Thanks for watching. Helen was a wonderful guest.

[@chalmapatterson544]

This lady is one smart cookie .

[@ortforshort7652]

Helen does the best job of anyone of explaining where the Wokes, with the best of intentions, went wrong and how they went wrong, And how where they are going will accomplish exactly the opposite of what was originally intended before they went off the rails.

[@pbziegler]

Amazing book. Really explains the evolution of Post Modernism (which was a nutty bunch of ideas back in the 60's) and has evolved into a dangerous anti liberal set of ideas that has real implications for an open society. As a leftie progressive I learned a lot and loved the book. Critical Theory is MAGA on the left.

[@prschuster]

So post-modernists say that language maintains systems of power after which they use language themselves to maintain their own position of power in academic discourse? What am I missing here?

[@Mpacitto]

Nothing. People who want power see power everywhere

[@newtalking3]

Nice to hear Helen

[@tompommerel2136]

WOW, a rich interview. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@yelapa999]

I guess I could say I'm from the art world. Postmodernism had been been booed and laughed off the stage, I dunno… I'lll say mid-nineties. The most representative current practitioner is Probably Jeff Koons, whose art has all the soul of birthday balloons which, coincidentally his art resembles. Gradually, I realized this same thinking is behind the current progressive moral hysteria. Great to have this other part of the postmodern story explained so well.

[@openhueblue6661]

This is good. I also know if P.M. from the art world

[@Gerry_Davies]

Thank you both for this excellent deep dive into these ideas and their practical implications. Counterweight support sounds like a very useful resource.

[@mark4asp]

Helen's explanation of both 1-Gen pomo & its petering out is on the ball. Although it's still baffling that today's CRTers claim to be influenced by pomo when they're clearly not. We know they're not because they call themselves 'CRT' = critical race theorists. If you were in a lecture or seminar with one of the originals: Deleuze, Foucault, Derrida, Lyotard, or whoever and you asked them directly "what is your critique" everyone of them would tell you they weren't doing critique because they had no plan to "_make_ things better". Pomo did deconstruction, différance, or looked at things from another perspective. Pomo abhorred "critique". Another aspect of original pomo is they weren't Marxian in any, way, shape or form. If anything: they were explicitly anti-Marxist! So how an explicitly anti-Marxist philosophy = pomo which abhorred "critique", and the dialectical method got roped into Marxian "critical theory" is a wonder which only the modern academy can answer! The 1st error made by CRT is their very name. They misremembered the point of pomo. Nay they "repressed" it in the Freudian sense. AKA: they're already lying to us with that "CRT" meme. How did the academy manage to turn, say, carbon into lead? In late 1980s many academics would've gone through their graduate years with an understanding of pomo. Those who invented decolonialism, queer theory & CRT required some method which allowed them to do rampant speculation & make stuff up. Dialectic methods where still too Marxian or Hegelian. Critical Theory offered a take on the dialectic without actually being Marxian. [ "Classical Marxians" (those who actually did politics) were known for their distaste of both Critical Theory and Pomo. ] So CRT is a way to pretend to do politics while just doing speculation. Except, somehow, the speculation got turned into politics - because - I think like Sex Pistols anarchy "I wanna destroy" they are immature rebels. I'm too severe on the CRT links & how alien pomo is to Marxism. Despite people calling Foucault a pomo - I doubt he ever used that term to describe his ideas. Also - even Foucault admitted that had he read Frankfurt School authors he'd been somewhat more influenced by them as well as Nietzsche. Of course Foucault didn't read them because they hadn't been translated into French at the time he was forming his ideas!. "Existential Marxism" of Sartre, Hyppolite & Kojeve probably still dominated the French Left when Foucault was a student. In terms of a Marxian connection Derrida was a communist party member, and in his inaugural lecture to the Collège de France, Foucault is glowing in his praise for his mentor & very Marxian professor: Jean Hyppolite. In other words - they used none of the Marxian intellectual methods, but they all sympathized with the far left. Even Lyotard was once a member of "Socialisme ou Barbarie". The real links between Marxism, Critical Theory, Pomo, and CRT is all them employ methods which promote rampant speculation. They allow academics free reign to invent ideas which have some tenuous link to real life, & to declare their ideas crucially important.

[@mortalkomment8028]

The book is excellent, perfectly comprehensible and politically sane. Read the book! Don't just watch the videos online if you are a student or scholar! The book is so good that reading all of it is very insightful and highly recommended.

[@moonchild7033]

Refreshing to hear her perspective - good show @David

[@glynisansara]

A voice of reason in our strange new world. Fascinating.

[@duppyshuman]

Do you have data on the effectiveness of DEI trainings? In particular an increase in the number of "soldiers" among people forced to attend trainings?

[@upsidedown1972]

Even leyotard said that post modernism is incredulity towards meta-narratives. So, how did critical theories all become tautological boiler played meta-narratives?

[@sheilawade433]

Not only "classism" but "ageism" is often omitted

[@the_grand_tourer]

The grand irony is, if it wasn’t for the black civil rights movement, gay rights and pride, even further back the women’s rights movement pf the 30’s that created the foundations , space and freedoms for the ideologies of these ‘social justice’ warriors to exist … that’s why I think the rest of us stand by mouths agog, scratching our heads as we interpersonally engage with anyone on a human and equal footing. What are the trans rights they are fighting for? They have been written in to law to be protected from discrimination! What privilege, the rest of us are just an amorphous mass lumped together in our shared human rights.

[@dannyarcher6370]

David. Good discussion. I stopped short of calling it a _great_ discussion because it missed out on something that South African KZbinrs miss in this debate. The South African context. If you have the chance to interview one of the IDW members again in the future (James Lindsay, Peter Boghossian, Bret Weinstein, Jonathan Haidt, Jordan Peterson, etc), it would be great to hear what they have to say about CRT and social justice in South Africa. This discussion was a good primer for those who are completely unaware of what CRT is; however, now that you have covered the challenges to the West in general, I think those of who us are familiar with the problems CRT is causing internationally (and I suspect there is a large percentage of your audience that falls into this group) would enjoy something a bit more targetted at the challenges that face South African society. There were a number of occasions during the podcsat here I would've liked the discussion to go further to localise the context to South Africa and have Helen's opinion our situation. South Africa is unique amongst the West and particularly the Anglosphere in which a significant white minority remains. Towards the end of the discussion, you enquired about the rise of a conservative or white backlash to CRT. Full disclosure, I support the backlash. It blows my mind that progressives think they can get away with demonising whites in white majority countries for any length of time. This, however, is not a strategy that I believe is available to whites (and increasingly other minorities) in South Africa given the overwhelming numbers and cultural differences. It would be interesting to hear what these international intellectuals have to say about South Africa because it is a wholly different kettle of fish. Unfortunately, this may require some education on your part, as I don't think that any of them have any clue about what's going on in South Africa. You might have to spend a few minutes giving them a rundown on various issues. I think that it would broaden their thinking on the subject because their perspective has always been from the comfort white liberal majorities. I believe it would be an interesting angle of investigation for their work too. Topics to consider: Apartheid - Brief rundown on what it actually was. i.e. Jim Crow plus native homelands. The role that Western countries played in ending it as a consequence of liberal values and how illiberal the ANC have been in return. Post-apartheid - The political and societal changes since the ANC took power. White privilege and what CRT would have to say about BBBEE, the absurdity of affirmative action for the majority (Malaysia is the only other country where the majority enjoys such measures) , three decades of (for all intents and purposes) black majority rule. Countering woke culture. Again, this is much easier in a country where your majority demographic is being demonised. In South Africa, basically impossible given the consequences for especially white males in the labour market. The future of minorities and whites in particular in an increasingly progressive society which, unlike the rest of the Western world, hold almost no political power. Those are just some ideas. I'm just raising this here because while it was a good discussion, I've heard it a bunch of times before. It also helps to put a spotlight on the South African situation by putting it in the minds of renowned experts on the topic. Thanks again for the work you're doing.

[@mariomarais5644]

That would be a great discussion to have.

[@mariussielcken]

What about natural differences between people?

[@dannyarcher6370]

@@mariussielcken You mean as a discussion topic?

[@mariussielcken]

@@dannyarcher6370 you say 'given cultural differences' but what about natural differences?

[@dannyarcher6370]

@@mariussielcken I think that will be a step too far for them.

[@zeldagoblin]

I think there's a scary connection between making a person think, "I'm racist, I need to work to eradicate it, but I never can", and a far right group saying to that person, "You're right to be racist, don't fight it, come to our side and embrace it, be your true self."

[@Chris-hq7nl]

👍🏻

[@siphotheguy1870]

"you do the Wokey Pokey and you turn around"

[@kingclover1395]

I'd have to disagree with her on one point. She said that she doesn't believe that there's a conspiracy between Social Justice and the corporations who are adopting Social Justice policies. I do. And I actually think it's much bigger than that. Including parts of the government and even the United Nations. There's actually plenty of connections, and you don't even have to look very hard.

[@eddysgaming9868]

For a great many, communism still holds an appeal. And has yet to be tried./s

[@greencraig8570]

I'd be curious what Ms. Pluckrose would say about her colleague's (James Lindsay) Twitter persona. He seems to be spreading conspiracy theories about Covid and the Russian invasion. It's hard to reconcile that person and the one that collaborated on "Cynical Theories".

[@bobleglob162]

What information do you have serving as proof that they're "conspiracy theories"?

[@Camwin]

NZ situation with Maori being colonised and the treaty should be another thing to consider.

[@rafaamauzo9256]

16:48

[@TheSryn1]

Talking about epistemology... the way that this discourse is held is off-putting to the majority of our global population, who are not conversant with the terminology and terms that have largely been confined to the fields of linguistics, and related studies. How are people going to benefit from purported solutions presented in language that neglect to consider the use of day-to day, plain and simple rhetoric?

[@amybarlow3045]

Brave, intelligent women who puts her money where her mouth is

[@benjaminchartier6458]

The problem with critical race theory is that we need to learn how to properly deconstruct it. Doing so often requires and IQ in excess of 130. Many of the people who are opposed to critical race theory are simply not competent enough with language to be able to speak its rubric and be able to assert its opposite

[@susiegreaves7283]

I disagree. I think Orwell said something along the lines of this: Some ideas are so stupid that only an academic would put it forward. Then in the street would reject it straight away.

[@TheWhitehiker]

Helen seems to dismiss Marxism for this new Woke movement, except her examples all fit the relationship! James Lindsay and others show the close relationships of ID Politics, social justice, and Marxism.

[@eddysgaming9868]

As I understand, much of this grew out of Marxist theory.

[@TheWhitehiker]

@@eddysgaming9868 Yes, indeed.

[@Gawieseplaas]

Wow, striking resemblance to US Rashida Tlaib

[@TheWhitehiker]

'the wrongdoings of the past'-- compared to whom? COMPARED TO WHOM?

[@burleybater]

I once threw a biographical examination of the life of Tamerlane across a library study hall when I got to the bit about him stampeding horses through a city square over a bunch of children in order to chastise their recently conquered elders who had had the audacity to rebel against the colonial onslaught and takeover. Many people of all kinds of ages now claim to be rather well educated, knowledgeable, astute, critical, analytical, broadminded and far seeing. It is astonishing how very many of them don't know a damned thing about history.

[@TheWhitehiker]

@@burleybater true that.

[@danieljulian4676]

Good stuff. I know what postmodernism says (but only in a nutshell). What's interesting to me are the reasons why anybody who wasn't actually writing critical theory bought into it. That's because the people writing it were making a living (as academics) doing it. And now, people (mainly academics, again) are making a living on the podcast circuit trying to debunk something whose influence outside the academy is something I'm having trouble seeing. Humanities academics protecting their turf (not same as terf): Who saw that coming? What I really appreciate about this new critique is the executive summary of those aspects of postmodernism and critical theory about which I've been skeptical for decades, and was just unable to articulate. I'm from the other side of campus. Sue me in the world court.

[@bobleglob162]

Number 1, there is no such thing as social justice.

[@victordoofilipe9002]

And for a critical look at how the LGBTQ+ agenda has become so ubiquitous, I'd check out a book called AFTER THE BALL, IMO one of the most effective propaganda campaigns since those used in WWII.

[@Siya_Mnisi]

Just as Helen Pluckrose rightly points out the difficulties that come with pushing back against the cynical tenets and tricks of wokeism and the psychological impact, anxiety, and isolation one might suffer being in a critical social justice-dominated environment (especially when one lacks the know-how and the support to correctly characterize and respond to this), the same kinds of difficulties and challenges are experienced by those who have to correctly characterize and respond to cynical modern-day reifications of racist attitudes and institutional racism. Sadly, though, when those who suffer at the hands of modern-day racism try to point this out, they are gaslit and accused of suffering from some kind of victimhood. Just as I have stopped hoping that SJWs, the woke corporate democrats, and the far-rights will someday understand the problems they cause by their faulty characterizations and imposed solutions to real societal problems, I have stopped hoping that some whites will someday stop suspending their cognitive faculties when they think about race issues and racism.

[@jasonmarquard4601]

Don't give up Yaya. I know how hard it is in spaces where applied postmodernism ("wokeness") is dominant. But Helen's ability to walk us through the intellectual roots of these ideas gives me hope that we can respond to them in a non-reactionary way.

[@myplaylist2468]

Ugh.

[@cvisuali]

Too funny ms pluckrose talks gives interviews writes books then criticizes other philosophers for doing the same and being stuck in language how funny is that

[@letMeSayThatInIrish]

Indeed very funny, she should not criticise others who have written books, since such criticism is totally incompatible with writing a book!

[@theunwantedcritic]

Back when Obama had just become president there was talk about the United States moving into a post-racial society. Nobody black was saying that. Racism has increased exponentially on all levels and all metrics because of the backlash from white Americans who believe that the United States is theirs alone. So Trump did not start fascism He was a focal point for the fascists to rally behind

[@leonpope861]

Until peccant,hubris,complacency fizzle out,our planet will have esoteric lostness,gnostic fallen- ess.Serving our ego is a perpetual struggle,a per- petual stumbling block 🧶🧠🧩💔🧵

[@leonpope861]

Helen Pluckrose according to the Merriam-Web- ster's Collegiate Dictionary 1A ( 1 ) is intelligence. Keep up the 🧠 Politic ( Wise ) work against Illibe -ral Expediency,Babelian Complacency HP 🧶🧩💔☸🧵

[@NrsimhaDas]

Thank you David for bringing us this information.