Helluva Boss's BIGGEST World Building Problems

I tried my best to be as fair as possible.
Classism? What Classism? And Hell is looking pretty cozy compared to Earth if you ask me.

[@beekeepertree]

The amount of people hating Mammon because he's 'a bad person' really solidified your point about the whole 'it's the fanbase'

[@sasori2425]

I think it solidifies how Vizi has soften the image of what she's attempting to portray as normal. This is hell and people are supposed to be bad and bad is supposed to be normalized but when a character acts bad it's treated as not normalized but rather bad which confuses those of us trying to watch and understand the world building.

[@thewostr]

Yes! He was great too.

[@bluespectrum1348]

Yes, yes and yes.

[@colibri224]

Mammon ? I love him !! because he’s a pure asshole and depict perfectly the sin he’s suppose to represent: pure greed !!!

[@peebinator7814]

Mammon is the best. He's Rick from BushWorld Adventures. Its hilarious.

[@strikingsarcophagus]

The fans genuinely think that hell is just a location where sexy demons live and that's it. Like we're forgetting that hell is literally the location that shitty people are meant to go. It's where all the bad things are supposed to go. Being shocked by people in hell being bad individuals is like being shocked that a grocery store sells groceries.

[@trolgeeeeee]

Hell is the worst fate anyone can suffer yes even good people can go to hell and suffer that horrifying fate its not goofy and swear words no its pain agony in a never ending pitch black of darkness no life no death just pain and the screams of the demons and those stuck there with you even demons fear hell

[@danny1ft1]

Based on what? it's the writers version, if you follow most religions what most of us consider good people go to hell so it wouldn't just be filled with shitty people, it would be filled with what most of us would class as normal people, I get tired of people trying to make Vivzies fiction match up with their religions version of hell if I'm honest as it's not the same and to be honest Christian hell would be pretty damn boring for a show.

[@yonker1219]

@@danny1ft1 Yeah but like I'm pretty sure in all regions hell is still a terrible place for evil people. Also which religions are you talking about what may consider good people in are culture but still go to hell? Unless your talking different sins in each culture. But I'm pretty sure the sins are similar enough. Also normal people can still do bad things, hell a lot of evil people who got away with horrible things just acted nice or heck some times normal can do horrible things and don't see them as bad. Also no ones trying to have Vivzie match there version of hell no nobodies doing that. But people have an issue is that its just underwhelming. Also there's different versions of Christian hell. Like Dantes inferno is a unique take on Hell and Vivzie cleary has taken inspiration of it. Also I have read and watch entertaining stories that take place in a traditional hell, its all up the writers/artist creativity.

[@danny1ft1]

@@yonker1219 well for a start anybody who's an atheist goes to hell according to most religions I'll be honest atheists are usually nicer people in my experiences so if all of them were hellbound there'd be a lot of decent people in hell by my standards. Hell is a concept we go off some versions of hell it's complete darkness, pain and screaming which would be pretty dull. I like how Vivzies hell is similar to earth society and it's more like a bucket overflowing where angels show up and purge souls to empty it in a really sinister way, making you question who's really good.

[@anicemahoganywoodtable7486]

"And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds." -2 Corinthians 11:14-15

[@sross720]

Lust - good guy Gluttony - decent girl Greed - most unlikable person ever

[@thescarredsinner895]

Fucking, lust can sometimes be more deprived than Greed in some ways

[@trolgeeeeee]

​@@thescarredsinner895lust can be worse than both of those in many ways

[@darthsonic4135]

@@danjoredd I think it comes down to one simple thing. Someone can be either Lustful or Gluttonous and still LIKABLE. You can't really be Greedy and likable, at least not without lying about being greedy which I think is pretty hard to pull off as the embodiment of Greed.

[@reichtangleanschluss509]

@@darthsonic4135 Ever heard of Scrooge McDuck or Mr. Krabs?

[@ChucktheSpicyChicken]

​@@trolgeeeeee slaanesh...

[@liammiller6247]

Hell’s always been an aesthetic rather than a setting. They’re in Hell because it’s cool and edgy, not because they want to be consistent.

[@A-Clear_View]

yes you could do the same plot in a crapy poor part of medival urope durign the dark ages more or less

[@wiilov]

Wasted potential for what could have been a VERY interesting look at how an overtly material focused life is a life of Hell, but...NAAAAAAH

[@Dang.-]

​@@wiilovyeah the world building is overshadowed by sex and swearing

[@SilentSpringz]

Did u even watch this?

[@krabkrabby]

@@SilentSpringz Did you?

[@vulpixle9659]

One thing I really hope gets addressed is Millie's racism towards hellhounds notice she never refers to loona by her name just the hellhound or blitz's hellhound in episode 5 she even introduces loona blitz's hellhound loona to her family to which blitz corrects and says loonas his daughter also i think i have a idea why octavia wasn't judgemental towards loona while stella was is very judgemental it really doesn't look like she's a involved parent maybe it's something via picked up from stolas

[@tokunerdmore3028]

Kinda makes ya wonder if Octavia even cares about her mother and if not, what's stopping Stolas from just leaving and taking Via with him.

[@DANCERcow]

Genuinely why does it "need!" to be addressed? It doesn't lol

[@vinegardoppio5501]

​@@DANCERcowracism

[@vulpixle9659]

@@DANCERcow more so I want someone to actually call Millie out on it maybe have loona and Millie in a job together and loona refuses to listen to Millie because Millie won't use her name

[@unapersonav1522]

​@@DANCERcowIt doesn't, but It'd be a big misopportunity to just not explore the dynamic between 2 of your main characters.

[@Barakon]

Y’a know all of these “polar opposite class” relationships could have still existed in the story if they were shown to be secretive & if Fizz was shown to have been pretending to be a different sort of demon than an imp & if Stolas was the only one openly trying to break the cast system by being a horny borb.

[@TheLandOfDreams]

YEAH frankly i thought they were implying fizz was pretending to be a different kind of demon? he covers up his more imp-like traits and he's in the hellborn section of the infographic even so??????????

[@yamato9753]

They even show in the latest Episode how Fizz is ashamed of his broken burnt Horns, as they are an important Symbol of Imps.

[@blu_slurpees]

also fizz didnt start his own business he got exploited by buckso and then famous and popular enough to be exploited by mammon. he's famous so it doesn't really matter. and the fizz-bots don't have the signature imp tail so I feel like with his fame people erase more of his impy traits. Fizz displays as an imp to us but not to his in universe fans and the fizz X ozzie relationship I feel doesn't need to be hidden if they were strictly lustfully but the fact that they love each other is the problem. Oz is the prince of essentially *FUCKING/SEX* so like them having sex I feel wouldn't be seen as much of a problem. and I feel that bee doesn't really need to be secretive cause like she's the princess of gluttony she's literally supposed to indulge in whatever she wants whenever she wants and who's gonna talk back to her she could literally kill you and I know she would protect tf outta vortex if anyone bashed him for dating her.

[@distrust_us]

@@TheLandOfDreams imo it's more like they're concerned about the demon of lust having the capacity to love, instead of it being a combination of fizz being an imp. they never really highlight it besides calling asmodeus a hypocrite. they give it like one second on a newspaper and blitz one line mentioning it briefly. it's a real nothingburger. stella did a better job by being so insulted by stolas' affair with an imp, but even that loses weight as we see the same thing being done again and again, without the same, consistent judgement from others. i really feel like they fell through with this, otherwise it would have more depth when viewing.

[@fizzy69o.0]

​@@TheLandOfDreamsRobo Fizz is shown in the hellborn section, not Fizzarolli. I mean demonic robot is technically hellborn anyway

[@CT63648]

We can't say that sex crimes will be completely off the table in the Vivzie Hellverse. Angel Dust has been both exploited and raped by Valentino, and a large part of his story will be to get out from under the thumb of his pimp. But if a moth pimp is a better embodiment of the true evils of lust than the literal overlord of lust, there might be a problem.

[@stevenhiggins3055]

Valentino isn't really about lust. He's mixture of Pride and Wrath with a springling of Greed only being packaged in Lust. Their dynamic is actually similar to Fizz and Mammon, only with more violence and a sense of ownership. Valentino sees Angel as something he owns, and is therefore entitled to use as he pleases, including sexually (this is Pride, not Lust) When challenged he reacts with violence, sometimes that violence can be sexual in nature, but motivated by anger, not sexual desire (Wrath, not Lust) To him, Angel is a "product" he can sell and exploit for money (Greed) The services he has Angel provide to others are exclusively sexual, this is the only part of their dynamic that involves any actual Lust.

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@stevenhiggins3055Lust is craving a strong desire, it doesnt say that it must involve consent or not, Bloodlust has Lust in the name for a reason so for Ozzie to say Lust must have consent or else it is not Lust is asinine, he should have just said he supports the good side of Lust. Rxpe and SA is for a lustful desire but yes it is about Pride and Wrath too.

[@TheRezro]

First of Lust is actually deeper concept then just the sex. Secondary, in this universe they are basically just the people. Because politicians should be liars, it doesn't mean that they all are. Ozz seams to more operating night club district and run sex toy factory, rather then being directly involving in pimp business. His problem with Fizz seams to be more related to him being Geotia.

[@TheRezro]

@@artistanthony1007 Ozzie could be also ignorant. What in fact was implied was his personality trait, when he almost ended scammed by Moxie father.

[@Axoldrew]

​@stevenhiggins3055 In the bible lust is all about your desires even if it's at risk of...harming another person and even if it wasn't a one to one at least make him the most degenorate person out of the sins

[@basedleafeon3221]

Can I also mention how in Hazbin Hotel, Charlie is openly mocked and made fun of for wanting to open a "rehabilitation hotel" to help sinners become better people... And yet in Season 2 Episode 5, when Blitzo is looking for his sister, we are introduced to the fact that Hell has... Rehabilitation Hospitals? Literally an OFFICIAL CENTER that is meant to help you mentally and rehabilitate to essentially become a better person is shown to be a common thing, yet we are supposed to believe a rehabilitation hotel is too stupid and worthy of being made fun of by the entirety of hell?

[@andrewkuebler4335]

If there is ONE thing I have learned about Viv's work, it's that you will find consistency.

[@krabkrabby]

Good point! Another demonstration that Spindlehorse works are terribly written. Plot holes everywhere.

[@saphirebandit93]

Chiming in as the opposition here, Charlie's plan may be getting ridiculed not because it's about people getting sober, but because she is trying to redeem them so they can escape hell and go to heaven. That does seem like a pretty long shot. I will agree that it does feel a little inconsistent that sinners are encouraged to go wild, but hell's denizens seem to hold themselves to a certain moral standard.

[@basedleafeon3221]

@@saphirebandit93 They DO directly state it's a ridiculous idea because "nobody gives a shit about becoming a better person" rather than specifically mock the idea of someone going to Heaven, which is why it feels hypocritical for them to say such when rehab hospitals are seemingly scattered around Hell.

[@thegotlandisfarmer8774]

It’s the sinners that saying rehab center it’s not needed because they are sinners they don’t wanna be better beings, thay are bad people that don’t wanna be good, hell born have there own live thay are the natives of hell and the sinners are the spoiled city teenagers that things that are better then the natives population because they have powers and the hellborns do not, how would you be if someone move into your house trash it and you trying to fix it but people from the neighbors call you to be the bad guy because they believe the invader of your home it’s the right way of life?

[@nightopiaz]

The pilot argument was a little loose, but I agree with a lot of your points. It's just that a pilot has concepts and characters that are subject to change.

[@novaa9022]

i agree with this one. a pilots purpose is to show an audience / future company sponsors a feel for what your story is, a general un canon base for people to place advice / opinion / support / and love for what youre creating

[@starlightrai]

I feel like it’s a bit bad that the first ep of helluva doesn’t work as well. I saw many reactors being pointed back to the pilot to get a better introduction to the characters.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

The pilot is flashbacked too by blitzo in the circus episode It's canon.

[@krabkrabby]

@@nagatouzumaki4047 Exactly. The pilot is canon, but people are trying to consider it out of canon so they can avoid to face reality, I guess (means the show is bad written).

[@gamerstheater1187]

The pilot was actually retconned from canon

[@shipperina2213]

I dont blame the fandom, even without the fandom influence Vizziepop woobifies her characters, plus as a show runner it is her responsibility to keep the characters consistent, like sure people can acknowledge ships, but once it starts affecting the character's portrayal then there is an issue

[@bubblycups]

Fr, people are so focused on the unwarranted hate Vivzie gets they forget that alot of the criticism she receives is actually warranted. Alot of her writing DOES feel like a bad fanfic of her work, the fandom is not the reason her work is so messy

[@cookie856]

​@@bubblycupsOkay, just want to say I love you put bad before fanfic because most criticism I saw just. Told fanfic are always bad written and just seeing bad fanfic instead of just fanfic makes me happy.

[@bubblycups]

@@cookie856 I understand how you feel, people hear about things like my immortal or read 2 or 3 bad fanfics and think the whole practice is bad like no it can actually be so good 😭

[@fanaticalistic]

The episode where Loona goes to the hospital VERY much woobifies her by having her be a full feral dog about the shot.

[@mirkohoble]

@@fanaticalistic Now that you mention it. It's kinda sus to portray the hellhounds as the lowest of the low, show discrimination against them (such as Millie calling her "the hellhound", and the orphanage/doghouse ), and then showing one of them acting like a feral animal just for a shot. I don't mind Loona acting like an animal while fighting, because she is fully conscious and in control over the situation, but the hospital scene? She doesn't feel like she is being aware of anything.

[@nena7328]

I would summon all criticism with: Vivzi wants every character to be simp-able

[@Jay-gurl]

I will say this just because I have the knowledge. I was very confused how Ozzy's was "couples" only as well despite not liking love and only being about lost. But I have a friend who is a swinger. And she explained it's a similar rule to swinger clubs where couples can go in, even single girls sometimes but never single guys because of safety issues. None, being Hell that still seems off but at least there is a small explanation to how a club where people are actively getting it on have "couples" but is still more about lust than romance. Honestly the biggest issue I have with Ozzys now is Moxxie and Millie bang on stage in Unhappy Campers in front of hundreds of CHILDREN, but Moxxie was too embarrassed to be lewd at the club. X"D

[@mrbeastfan8079]

It wasn't that he was too embarrassed to be leud it was that he didn't wanna change his song

[@KolkoCat]

I forgot about that last one with Moxxie and Millie omg

[@abhikergaming7783]

@@KolkoCat Can I just say 1 thing: hell borns aren't sinners so they didn't come to hell because of a action they commited, they were just born there, so for alot of them being somewhat decent beings isn't far fetched since as I said they were born there not put there as a punishment for their horrible actions,that being the reason someone like beelzebub or moxxie are decent people. You understand what i'm trying to say here??

[@abhikergaming7783]

@@KolkoCat Also another thing alot of people pointed out: pilot's aren't cannon,there prototypes for the show,so many things will change,like Blitzo's mom being originally his sister in the pilot

[@IlIIlIIIIIlBrianSt0rm]

It doesn't necessarily mean couple in the sense of romance though. It's the fact it's two people. A couple, in this case. Refers to the lust between two people. Not the romance, we just assume it's romance only because we only see Moxxie and Millie using that spot as a date. Like you mentioned, it'd be closer to a swinger's club, hence why individual people aren't allowed in

[@cozychamomile]

I feel Beelzebub only treats everyone so well at parties because she profits from it. By gathering the hellhounds and imps together and having them engage in gluttony, they somehow make her Beezlejuice. "Your Queen Bee brings the sweet stuff, so keep making me that motherfucking honey!"

[@artistanthony1007]

Except that's not it, Bee is having the party so the lower class can have fun, no sinister intentions at all which is on reason that makes the entire episode awful.

[@rainbowtoyfunrandomess1982]

​@@artistanthony1007How is the episode, Queen Bee awful?

[@artistanthony1007]

​​@@rainbowtoyfunrandomess1982Ohh I don't know, how about every Imp and Hellhound make no problems in the Party & making bad vibes? And nobody sides with Loona who told that poodle girl a bxtch? I call it bs that nobody would have done this and that poodle girl deserved it, just mocking Loona in public and Loona is just in the wrong when that girl was in the wrong too. Cotton Candy is agonizing to listen to and the worst song I've heard up to that point, Candy Pop is overrated and not a genre people like.

[@liammcgill5270]

THANK YOU, SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT! I HATE BEE IN THIS, NOT A FLY! 0/10

[@rainbowtoyfunrandomess1982]

@@artistanthony1007 I mean, you do have a point. Why can't someone stand up for Loona? Vikki is the one who is very rude and disrespectful towards Loona. Also I love Cotton Candy and if you don't, that's fine.

[@lebarondeminuit3580]

What I hate about the modern fandoms is that they see characters and will treat characters as not fictional people. Like, they will hate a character because he's horrible and will shame other people for liking said character (I was called a homophobe because I like Crimson and find him entertaining) this is so dumb

[@thewostr]

These people have me weary of the world.

[@serpent6827]

As someone who loves Mammon both personality and design, I know what you mean. Some one in another videos comments seemed genuinely shocked that I didn't hate the character even if he was horrible to Fizz. Like you with Crimson, I find that demented, Australian Christmas tree to be funny and entertaining.

[@danny1ft1]

Those people are idiots, you're entitled to like whatever character you want, the villains are there to be disliked but that doesn't take away how relavant they are to the show, they're imporrtant characters without them it would be pretty dull. Plus Mamon and Crimson both gave me a good laugh as well as making me disgusted.

[@lebarondeminuit3580]

I'm not joking, once on Twitter I was called a p-wordo because my favorite character from Game Of Thrones is Littlefinger, the person insulting me was following a fan account of Ted Bundy. Once I told them that they blocked me

[@danny1ft1]

@@lebarondeminuit3580 ignore idiots dude, most the actors in game of thrones did a brilliant job of selling their characters.

[@kamiwriterleonardo6345]

Another thing that always upsetted me: Beelzebub herself. Let me ask you this: If Beelzebub either is a Hellhound or the creator of all hellhounds, why are hellhounds at the bottom of the hierarchy? Wouldn't they be reveered if they either descend from a Prince of Hell, or that one of them became a Prince of Hell? Beelzebub imo was completely ruined at the moment Viv decided to make her intrinsically connected with Hellhounds. In my humble opinion, Beelzebub should have just ditched the entirety of the Wolf side, and doubled down on the insect motifs, especially bees and flies.

[@abitcattywampus]

The rings of hell are circus themed according to Viv and Gluttony is the animal trainer section. Bee seems very affectionate and kind at the party, but she is also using those guests to make her honey for Beezlejuice. She is the one approving the adoptions at the orphanage and you saw what that place looked like so apparently her affection for them has limits.

[@jindrichsander7271]

Well then again satan suppodly created the imps in the wrath ring yet they are still also very low. Maybe its not even up to them. Perhaps lucifer is the one who gives titles. After all outside of royals and nobilities sinners are the most highly regarded in hell. Don't underestinate the fact that lucifer is a king of hell, he is a sin of his own rung but he is also the king of the entire hell and the sins are his underlings.

[@kamiwriterleonardo6345]

@@abitcattywampus This opens a new can of problems. If her affection for them is limited, why is she able to, unpunished or unquestioned, have one of the lowly Hounds as her boyfriend? Wouldn't the other hounds question the way they were treated if their r progenitor shows such favoritism? And this still doesn't excuse the fact that somehow, she doesn't embrace her own sin, being able to not only drink and eat in a controlled way, but calling out those who are "out of control". Dude that's the whole point of gluttony, to consume without limit.

[@kamiwriterleonardo6345]

@@jindrichsander7271 Okay, that's a fair assumption. But if that's the case, who came first: Hell and its native denizens, or Lucifer? If it's the former, then who created the races of hell, if Beelzebub and Satan created Imps and Hellhounds, and they themselves supposedly are Imps and Hellhounds? If it's the latter, and Lucifer comes first, then by what means did he choose the Deadly sins? If the sin of lust isn't lustful, and the sin of gluttony isn't a glutton? What was the standard for you to become a sin, if not to completely embody it?

[@jindrichsander7271]

@@kamiwriterleonardo6345 I get what you are saying in my own humble personal opinion and I don't want to force that image, the more powerful demons used to be angels (I think that atleast the sins used to be since lucifer is confirmed to be 100% a fallen angel) I think they then created demonic species which resemble them just like god supposedly created us to resemble him. We only got that confirmed with satan and belzebub tho(the creator part , not the angel part and it would be fair to say that not always is that the case anyway since mammon doesn't resemble any demonic species that we know of)

[@LyteningDrawz]

I wish sinners were separated in different rings depending on which sin they were primarily sent there for and then have there be various punishments in that ring for them, or maybe just have them suffer from the very thing they were sent their for (for example sinners in lust would suffer from constant stds). This would probably change the story a lot tho..

[@mrbeastfan8079]

It would create several plot holes in Hazbin Hotel The whole cast would be separated Also, it is implied that sinners are confined to pride so that they are easier targets in the exterminations

[@violetthebat8810]

@@mrbeastfan8079 That's kinda an interesting idea for an alternate reality in the show! ~ 😎

[@Featheryfaith7]

Doesnt make sense. If you break one sin, then you break them all. Putting them in the pride ring makes more sense..

[@LyteningDrawz]

@@mrbeastfan8079I’m sure Charlie could travel to different rings and pick specific demons she wants to save. Or she could maybe make a system for sinners from other rings to come up to pride if they want redeemed.

[@littlemoth4956]

@@Featheryfaith7 "If you break one sin, then you break them all." What???

[@cartoonlover985]

I do like the idea of the other sins confronting Ozzie and Bee about their behaviour. They could be accused of “going soft”, that them being nice to the lesser demons can cause people to stop viewing the Sins as threatening leaders to be obeyed and risk potential chaos in the rings. Mammon can’t be the only Sin that’s the douchebag, the others need to have similar opinions for their to be any interesting repercussions for Ozzies and Bees choices.

[@khylerbane4523]

*Exactly!* Wrath, Pride, and Envy are probably as bad, if not Much worse than Mammon. Wrath is probably the avatar of “toxic masculinity” and everything wrong with it. Pride is most likely a elitist, pompous, condescending, classist. He’s probably the largest or tallest of the sins and has the “most perfect body” to complete the theme. And Envy is probably a spiteful, jealous, weasel. As well as the smallest along with being the second weakest and most non threatening of the 7. Plus we saw Bee(lzebub) briefly go into her true form when Loona made that snide remark. Showing the Bee is actually relatively thin skinned.

[@cartoonlover985]

@khylerbane4523 I keep picturing Sloth as a neutral party. They aren't treating their citizens like shit and probably take enough care of them but they still acknowledge them as beneath them in the food chain.

[@jamesnova745]

@Khylerbane most of those I agree with, but pride is Lucifer, the ACTUAL devil. We've seen teasers of him before, and he's similar but also way different then you describe. Also, he is not classist, from context clues. Honestly, besides overpopulation of his pride ring by sinners, I think he just does not give a shit about anything in hell. Yeah, he's the king of it and all, but with all this BS going down, you'd think he would start to take notice, but nope. He only really cares about his personal hell. Maybe every other species in hell is just beneath his notice.

[@abitcattywampus]

Everyone is below the 7 Deadly Sins, they literally have no equals to date. Lucifer himself is married to a former human and his daughter is dating a sinner. Ozzie wasn't hiding his relationship with Fizz because Fizz is an imp, he was hiding it because he is the sin of lust and he is very much in love with Fizz. Everyone already knew they were sleeping together. He wasn't even criticizing Stolas for his relationship with Blitz, he praised him for following his lust in spite of the consequences. Only the Goetia seem to have any sort of issue with dating outside of their class.

[@batlips770]

Could love to see Envy do this but by what Viv have said leviathan gonna be a chill surf dude...ew

[@isaiahraymond269]

One problem I noticed watching the show is something I like to call the “yandere dev effect”. Where the creator/creators of a property keep adding things just because they sound cool, regardless of affect it has on the property in question. And more often than not it often either feels shallow in the grand scheme of things or makes the creation ever more bloated.

[@joaoferreira3007]

This video summarizes well a lot of the problems i've seem in Helluva Boss: its hell only when is convenient, its bad only when is with the bad guys. The Literal Demons of Lust and Gluttony being "nice" really do not make any sense whatsoever, yeah they could be good to the people they "like", but they should've been always caracterized by their "sins" and their bad influence on everything and everyone they touch. This inconsistences really bothers me.

[@krabkrabby]

Exactly

[@Bicth97]

Because the show isn't trying to preach about actual irl morals to you, it's a setting based off Christian lore that is going to have fun with it. Hazbin Hotel expands the mythos considerably because it shows Heaven and its residents are not all actually good or perfect.

[@taratheshinyabsol768]

​@@Bicth97 Yeah! It's being creative with the story, if there wasn't any creativity it probably wouldn't be as popular as it is.

[@shadeofthenight8988]

I find the “it’s hell” response so annoying when it’s a response to questioning the show’s morals not the worlds morals. Like how s2e1 physical abuse is shown to be against the show’s morals while being ok for the worlds yet next episode Luna suddenly does the same yet it’s slapstick and not at all a problem? It makes it feel hypocritical and like the writers are playing favorites” the main characters can do it and it’s nothing yet everyone else is the bad guys for such behavior” that undermines the seriousness and how we are supposed to feel of scenes when they actively go against it at a different episode.

[@Featheryfaith7]

Because hypocrisy is sin?

[@ContagiousSponge]

Honestly, when I say "It's Hell." I'm not saying “What they're doing is okay and nobody cares." What I'm really saying is "Why are you surprised something like this happens in a place like that?"

[@Theoriginalmistwalker]

in one case we are seeing physical abuse between spouses with the purpose of hurting and controlling the other, which is bad for the morals of the series, in the other we see Loona have what is for her a natural reaction to afection, physical rejection, she's not doing it for the purpose of controlling or hurting someone, thats just how she reacts to almost any physical affection from blitz (And probably in general)

[@AdmiralStoicRum]

I have a feeling that that's how Luna shows her affection for blitzo

[@crowdlycrow3632]

I hate it because it makes not sense. There are like 1 million versions of hell. We don't know wich one is true.

[@poisonpenfairy2844]

I think in vivs world, there is a BIG distinction between the sinners and the hellborn. The sinners are in hell for a reason, but the hellborn were just, well, born there. They have the ability, clearly, to be generally good people (and since killing a human just sends that person to heaven or sends them to hell - which is their home - they wouldnt see it as so aggredgious). Lucifers whole thing is freedom - in vivs world it feels more like the only reason hell is a bad place to live is because people are generally free to do whatever terrible things they want but still have to deal with the consequences of people that are more powerful than you doing the same (and the yearly extermination for the sinners of course). It makes sense that the rings outside of pride have the potential to be less aweful than the ring populated by the worst of humanity. Same with the lgbt stuff, it makes sense prejudice would be way more common among the sinners than the hellborn, who know lgbt isnt a sin....and who think sins are good to begin with. Also it seems so far like while the goetias are very classist, the sins dont seem to be - this could be because their focus is their sin and thats not class specific Also also saying fizzerloli being rich and blitz owning a successful buisiness means that the class system is practically non-existent is like saying racism must be non existent because will smith and black-owned businesses exist.

[@artistanthony1007]

I don't understand why all Sinners are just seen as evil when many will do some sins but not evil like me.

[@meave7757]

@@artistanthony1007 ?🧐

[@-MidnightOwl-]

FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS THIS. JUST BECAUSE "it's hell" DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERYONE IN THERE HAS TO BE BAD. Plus, it seems that even good people go to hell too, and generally, heaven is rigged.

[@meave7757]

@@-MidnightOwl- So far no other truly good demon has been seen besides Charlie in hell, she was born there, and demons born in hell are not always bad, on the other hand, the sinners that have been introduced in the series, do not seem be good people.

[@HiAgainTheNameIsStillAyle]

​@@artistanthony1007Pretty sure that doing some sins won't lend you to hell, just to purgatory Hell would be the place for reaaaal messed up people Murderers and shit

[@Samhasnocheesealt]

I have a theory about Bee and Vortex and why no one seems to care that they are in a relationship. This might be because Hellhounds come from that ring, which is why there are so many at the party compared to Imps. So with that being said, she has probably dated a lot of hellhounds as there are a lot in that ring. Also for the 7 deadly sins to date a lower class shouldn't be a surprise because all of the sins are like siblings to each other and them dating each other would be incest sort of; so there are only the lower class to be in a relationship with. Now with Crimson and him being a mafia leader that might be because it is the Greed ring, so therefore the person with the most money is in charge.

[@LycanMOON]

I always saw it as the sins being the strongest,means you would NEVER want to get on their bad sides Even speaking badly about them is probably looked down on even in hell since they can just kill you instantly.while the royalty,while strong doesn't have much of the same authority as the sins.still being able to get assassinated if word gets out their dating a lower species Ozzy and fizz only hide it because of their hypocrisy

[@jazzyqueen4980]

​@@LycanMOONI find it funny how the imps or hellish citizens "wouldn't want to get on their bad side" yet we have instances of the lower class 1. Assaulting Fizz in front of Ozzie (Millie) 2. Insulting (even though it's a joke) and publicly beating Bee at her drinking game (Blitzø) 3. "Causing issues" at her party (Blitzø) 4. Starting a fight w/ Bee (Loona) 5. Kidnapping Fizz & mocking Ozzie, to his face, that he's the weakest Sin (Crimson)

[@hehhehhehheh-wn7zz]

​​@@jazzyqueen4980Honestly think the series would be better without the lost episode 8. Ozzie's was a great finale and Spring Broken didn't infer AT ALL that Tex's gf was a powerful demon. Doubt it's just me, but I expected his gf to be a hell hound that, as he said "hosts hound parties". Like, for a such as Vivsie tried, Bee isn't even a hell hound she is meant to be a Queen Bee that is supposed to be powerful, I even expected her to be evil, encouraging Blitz to drink and not leave and to have Loona get him out of the party. Or even before that, to have Loona get trapped at the party? Or to have people getting hurt from the party drugs Bee was shoving down their throats? By that point it shouldn't be the finale of a season, it should have been left as a music video or maybe a dream sequence.

[@artistanthony1007]

There should be some people at that party not buying it or like that Bee is with Tex but not them and helping Loona out of the adoption center but not the other orphans.

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@jazzyqueen4980The fact that nobody else is causing problems is BS.

[@-nyx-8850]

26:40 "...in Helluva Boss, it just feels like Earth but with colorful, hornier people" 😂 Nailed it like the Romans.

[@rissyrizz]

I hope they can make the sins wrath, envy, sloth and pride more villainous, I hope that gluttony and lust are the more nicer ones of the sins. I like how Mammon really is greedy, refreshing to finally have an actual bad person in hell. I like his character, he actually feels like a demon from hell, not a softie. The fact that he’s built like a Christmas tree is such a good design too lmfao.

[@rocbenaa1963]

Technically is a clown, not a christmas tree

[@chaoticneutral6095]

Lucifer reveal in Hazbin Hotel: evil? never heard of it? 😋

[@joecandice6372]

With the Beelzebub being nice thing, its probably because she wanted Loona to get rid of Blitzo under the guise of a friendly helping hand. You dont want the bad ingredients in your soup, in her case, you dont want the negative people in the party.

[@A-Clear_View]

wy would she be bad ? cause shes in hell

[@ThePrincessCH]

@@A-Clear_View Cause she's one of the Deadly Sins of Hell.

[@ThePrincessCH]

From what I understood of the episode, Vivienne's idea of gluttony is overindulgence, which implies that she's meant to be the poster girl for addicts. Blitzø kind of acts the way one would expect of an addict always looking for a fix, while everyone else in her party look like they're at a normal club party. I imagine that if the point of gluttony is to overindulge, then a lot of people would already be wasted instead of having casual conversations.

[@adamsayer11]

@@ThePrincessCH I saw it as gluttony being overindulgence in good things. Bee seems to get her kick from people enjoying themselves and indulging in the "good" things in life (good being subjective as its implied to be drugs and alcohol) she didn't have a problem with Blitzo at first because at first he was acting the same as any other party goer, but later on he was only doing it to mask the pain, which isn't gluttony, and as it is something that could cause people around him to stop partaking in the good times, Bee didn't like that.

[@ThePrincessCH]

@adamsayer11 Isn't Hell the place where bad people go because they do bad things? It seems odd that they would have such a positive character since the "Hazbin Hotel" pilot kind of implies that everyone in Hell is having a turf war. A positive role model seems off brand.

[@BonazaiGirl]

You got a lot of good points but I have a few counterpoints. I think one big difference between the major hierarchies is that the Ars Goetia are primarily more into rank than the other members of the Sins. Ozzie (who is apart of the AG) and the AG royalties seem to be significantly more classist compared to other demons. Keep in mind, Charlie, the princess of Hell herself, is dating a (fairly recently deceased) sinner, which is magnitudes lower than someone of her class, and Beelzebub’s conversation about the other Sins imply that they see each other more like family than anything else. With their rankings, who’s gonna tell them who they can or can’t date? Ozzie, as I see it, is the exception given that, as I stated, he is apart of the Ars Goetia. That, and as then embodiment of Lust, he has a role to maintain. Keep in mind though that, ironically enough, he has no compunctions about _sleeping_ with lower class races, as the stigma for him is that it’s _loving_ them is a scandalous thing for him as Lust =\= Love shouldn’t be the standard he’s upholding. Hence why Bee is under no flack for dating a hellhound but Ozzie is for dating a demon. The deal with imps and hellhounds seems to be that it isn’t that they aren’t the lowest if the low just because, but that they have to work much harder to strive for success. We have seen more exceptions to the rule like Blitzo, Fizz and other imps, but the main populace seem more like common folk. I guess other species like succubi or baphomets have a significantly easier time getting the things hey want compared to imps. Plus, despite the hierarchy, as Vivziepop said herself, ranking doesn’t have as much sway as more fear does. Hence why Alastor, an overlord who is lower and weaker than Charlie, is implied to be respected more than the princess of hell herself. It’s why Crimson, who somehow amassed great wealth through brutality and ruthlessness, is seen as a pretty big threat in the Greed Ring despite being a mere imp.

[@IlIIlIIIIIlBrianSt0rm]

Ozzie isn't apart of the Ars Goetia? He one of the 7 deadly sins. He outranks the Ars Goetia Other than that, you're correct

[@BonazaiGirl]

@@IlIIlIIIIIlBrianSt0rm In demonology, Asmodeous is considered both a King of the Ars Goetia and a member of the 7 Sins.

[@IlIIlIIIIIlBrianSt0rm]

@@BonazaiGirl Yes. But that's not how it works in Helluva/Hazbin. It's made clear the 7 Deadly Sins is seperate to the Ars Goetia. Why is it so hard for people to understand this. Helluva/Hazbin is inspired by various mythologies and texts. It doesn't mean people should try to interrupt those mythologies/texts as a literal 1-to-1 for how the show is.

[@taddad2641]

In the end, power and fear is what rules hell.

[@birdperson7974]

The reason why Stolas’ relationship with Blitzo gets so much backlash and controversy is because the Goetias hold themselves to royal standards. Their rank is considered a family and family stands together as a united front Stolas’ relationship with Blitzo shows weakness of the whole which is why the Goetias we’ve seen give him trouble for it. Asmodeus’ jab at Stolas wasn’t about Stolas’ relationship with Blitzo but about how he gave up his supposedly happy family for Lust, which shows that the sins or at least Asmodeus doesn’t care about mingling with the lower ranks. The sins don’t get any backlash for dating lower demons because no one can really do anything to them besides other sins, and even then sins probably won’t attack or interfere with each others business unless it interferes with their own agenda. Sins also have sole authority in their own ring which is an added level of protection against a threat. A Goetia doesn’t have that luxury because of being in a rank with others of the same or higher caliber who can retaliate against them.

[@tfjhhguyft]

This video is mostly good but I do have two counterpoints. Firstly it's not that love is seen as weird it's that ozzy's brand is built around lust not live, love is only really discriminated against in the lust ring. Secondly we have only seen bee's party and the hellhound adoption center in the gluttony ring, as most of the fandom has concluded the gluttony ring is probably a horrible place to live outside of bee's party's.

[@corvusmonedula]

It still doesn't make a lot of sense that love is a normal or common thing in hell. HELL, where people who betrayed love get ETERNAL punishment The only kind of love I think would be accepted is selfcentered love, so narcissism

[@jazzyqueen4980]

​@noblenolanplease look up the key definition of a "demon" before you think that's a reasonable counterpoint

[@ellanimation816]

@@jazzyqueen4980demons in Heluva boss are significantly different then your regular demons

[@VinVin_31]

@@jazzyqueen4980 No idea where you were going with that.

[@hehhehhehheh-wn7zz]

But the show never confirms that Bee's parties are the only good thing in Gluttony, or that she uses them to manipulate hell hounds. The show doesn't do enough to show how things work or sell that that ring is hell. They just scratch the surface and it leaves questions unanswered for me.

[@thatmoviegirl3814]

I really like how you gave both the positives and negatives of worldbuilding in the show. When it comes to Vivziepop, people seem to either praise her as the best or tear her down as the worst. It's okay to be a place where your craft is pretty good, but still has room for improvement

[@incineroar9933]

What i didnt get about Crimson is why he didn't at least send someone to look into shark boy. He just took him at his word and didn't send one of his many many goons to see just how much money this kid had before sinking all that dough into modifying his house like that. Why would he just trust this dumb guy who suddenly came into a lot of money? How did he even fool Crimson? They're in hell, blindly trusting someone at their word should be the last thing a bigshot crime boss would do. All the evidence was just... sitting in his trunk, even if he didn't suspect the guy, some of his goons should have at least been suspicious enough to do the tiniest bit of digging.

[@kenpatchiramasama1076]

Old people are easy to fool tbf

[@macho02]

to all of that add the fact that he was threatening and asking for money to one of the rulers from hell and if that wasnt enough he did it without covering his identity....no matter if lust is the weakest sin, HE IS STILL A PRINCE FROM HELL crimson is nothing in terms of power compared to that, or at least thats what its supposed to be. One thing is to try to get money out of the goetia and a different one is the ruler of a ring, crimson took all the threat that the position of being one of the rulers of hell after doing that.

[@incineroar9933]

@@kenpatchiramasama1076 he's the head of the mafia. In hell. If he was easy to fool he'd be dead mate.

[@incineroar9933]

@@macho02 Yeah exactly. I don't get why the one shark lawyer dude is the only one Ozzie and Fizz creamed. Sure, it's hell and all, but Crimson and Striker either needed to be a lot more careful about letting Fizz know who was responsible for his kidnapping, or dead. It makes no sense that Ozzie and Fizz didn't at least go after Crimson to kick his butt. If he is too plot important to kill, he at least needs to keep himself alive via his own two hands, and not because our main cast were so dumb they forgot all about him.

[@kenpatchiramasama1076]

@@incineroar9933 maybe on business ventures but he also used to hire the guy so maybe he thought he knew the guy better than he did. Wouldn't be the first time a mafia boss got tricked - they're not omniscient, after all

[@emilierekdal5118]

This is exactly why Mammon was so great in the newest episode. Finally a morally wrong deadly sin.

[@markthefan]

Side note: Vivzi has confirmed that the Piolet of Helluva Boss is no longer cannon tk the rest of the series

[@I_Dont_Believe_In_Salad]

God for bid until new episode that involve killing kids was made and Moxxie go "this is fine" which throwing his first episode of his view on killing a family to the trash.

[@corvusmonedula]

The thing is: viv can have a nicer less brutal/homophobic/racist hell if she didn't try to depict the Christian hell where sinners get ETERNAL PUNISHMENT and demons exist that are the EMBODIMENT OF THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS

[@DANCERcow]

The gays suck though! .-. homophobia this is not since I am not afraid of gays not have fear of them! Remember that is not how phobias work

[@I_Dont_Believe_In_Salad]

Her version of Hell sounds more like a Heaven because of how *Soft* everything is. Just because you saying swear words that doesn't mean it will get you to hell, and we seen a lot of swearing elements in the show.

[@mrbeastfan8079]

This interpretation is more like letting the sinners own destructive lifestyles destroy them as their eternal punishment

[@ronaldmacjokerfeliz2669]

​​@@mrbeastfan8079Except it's not eternal...Because of the angels that go there to kill them

[@mrbeastfan8079]

@ronaldmacjokerfeliz2669 well that's just due to the overpopulation if they had more room in would be eternal

[@spencerpayton5401]

In defense of Bee’s behavior: She may not care that people overindulge. However, Blitzø crossed a line by making things too serious and bothering other people, which also disrupts her ability to feed on her guest’s gluttonous moods. Simply put, Blitzø was overindulging in an unpleasant way, but if he was overindulging just to party and have fun, she wouldn’t mind. After all, she is what you WANT, not what you NEED.

[@incineroar9933]

Blitzo was the only one there being a real glutton, though. He was there to overindulge, that should be what Bee's parties are all about. A safe, happy party where everyone only feels good and doesn't overindulge beyond their limit because the host throws out guests who act gluttonous shouldn't be held in the GLUTTONY ring under the supervision of the EMBODIMENT OF GLUTTONY. Gluttony is self destructive, not just a party where you can only participate if you don't overdo it. The other guests should be behaving just like he was, as should Bee. Even Asmodeus put up a front in his club. Bee does not.

[@incineroar9933]

What Blitzø needed in that moment was to leave the party before he overdid it. She literally gave him what he NEEDED, not what he WANTED and what he was ACTIVELY INDULGING IN WHEN SHE KICKED HIM OUT. HE WANTED TO STAY.

[@spencerpayton5401]

@@incineroar9933 Not sure I agree, but opinions are opinions.

[@stevenhiggins3055]

He was bringing down the mood and making people uncomfortable, that's a danger to any entertainment business.

[@spencerpayton5401]

@@stevenhiggins3055 Right.

[@Maddhatter22694]

Vivzie is amazing at first impressions I just feel she is not the best at maintaining that energy for some characters.

[@I_Dont_Believe_In_Salad]

No, her art style is Charming, very charming in fact. And that's about Viv, other than that it's Mediocre.

[@tbeast151]

When the majority of people say they are sick of the "its hell" excuse they DONT mean its about a character being a bad person or not sympathetic. They refer to how flat and 1 dimensional a character is. The big issue with the "i like tormenting you" scene is that the show goes out of its way to paint Stolas as this OVERLY sympathetic uwu baby man that can do no wrong. Completely removing any nuance to the divorce plot. Yes stella is classist and privileged but we never see how the affair being so public affects her appearance in the eyes of her peers. Andre nor her peers make jabs about how she cant keep a man. Further motivating such drastic action. Theres no mention about her losing any status from the divorce. How does she interact with octavia. We are 2 seasons in and all we get from her is screaming. Why does she want stolas's money? Shes not a billionaire business woman. She's royalty. Anything she could ever want is instantly available to her because of nobility so her calling off striker felt unjustified and striker obeying is a whole other can of contrivances.

[@IlIIlIIIIIlBrianSt0rm]

1. No, they explicitly show that Stolas did hurt his daughter because of cheating on Stella, and Stella as we see, is BLATANTLY abusive and uncaring about Stolas or his title. The only reason she called off Striker was because her brother convinced her too. 2. I agree we don't see how the affair affects anything but we do see how her being emotionally abusive to Stolas is in the eyes of her peers because she throws a literal "Not divorced" party and spends all of it insulting and belitting Stolas 3. She doesn't want his money. That much is made clear when she just wants Stolas dead. And also, you're viewing this from the lens of someone who isn't a billionaire or royalty. Just because someone has money or status, doesn't mean she wouldn't want more. The whole " anything she could ever want is instantly available to her because of nobility" is stupid since even in the real world, those with power and money still try and claim more.

[@turd8500]

I feel like helluva boss is great at build up and absolute trash at pay off. I've actually come to expect things to not have consequences or complexities. I feel like of course Vivsipop has a right as a creator to make stella a one dimensional bad guy rather then a complex and interesting character, but I personally feel that the only reason stella became that is because it was easier for the stolas blitzo ship to be supported. It's the easy way out as a writer to not have to deal with complicated nuances like the person is just a bad person so they had it coming deserving to be cheated upon, but quite frankly season 2 have been really jumping the shark for me. A few examples of pay off not being delivered are the asmodeus sideplot and the build up that them being outed was gonna have consequences, then nothing happened, then we have the stolas almost getting killed ending up in the hospital sideplot which has no consequences, all in all while season 2 have had good stuff too ultimately it's about build up and no pay off which is objestively poor writing. I feel like Helluva boss suffers from ADHD in that it wants to move onto the next shiny new thing as quickly as possible. Season 1 was great but fans that pretend there are no objective issues with the writing aren't being very honest. I will give credit were credit is due at least the octavia story plot have been handled well thus far.

[@Justacheese]

@@turd8500 That ADHD thing you mentioned is a big thing I have to deal with as a writer. I constantly have cool ideas floating around in my head, but I pace myself and don't every new shiny idea to my story, since it would make it a huge bloated mess. Like you said Helluva boss seems to suffer from the same thing in its writing. The added problem here, is that unlike me the show has a vague deadline in place and a budget. I can take as long as I want writing my stuff since I'm not hugely popular with an eager fanbase. And since I'm working with word documents I don't have to worry about a budget and how much to spend on jokes VS character development.

[@andrewkuebler4335]

@@turd8500 That is my biggest fear going into Hazbin Hotel. Viv has stated that there is less stress on storytelling in Helluva Boss because it's the 'screw around funny junk' project, but I fear what Hazbin's story will look like. Is it going to be a complete narrative with buildup and payoff, consequences to actions, fully developed characters with well defined motivations, or will it be just a gross mess of random musical numbers, fight scenes, and impressive animated scenes. Because that stuff is cool and fun, but it has no real weight or permanence. And that really is what I want out of a show. I want to narrative to feel like it matters.

[@abitcattywampus]

@@turd8500 Ozzie outed himself at the end of the newest episode so we don't know what the actual consequences of that (if any) will be yet. All we know so far is that Mammon intended to blackmail him with the threat of outing him and Ozzie blocked that by outing himself.

[@mrx4022]

One thing I noticed is that Beelzebub and Vortex's relationship doesn't seem to be as judged as Asmodeus and Fizzie's relationship is. Hellhounds are ranked just below Imps within the hierarchy of Hell, so I found it a bit odd that no one was like; "Why's the Sin of Gluttony hooking up with a low class Hellhound??" One reason I think this is, is because Beelzebub can shut that shit down whenever she wants. Biblically, Beelzebub is the second most powerful in Hell, second only to Satan and Lucifer, and if Helluva Boss follows this general rule of thumb, nobody's really willing to fuck around and find out by judging who she dates.

[@adamsayer11]

I think the issue with Ozzie + fizz's relationship is that he is the king of Lust, which is characterised by flings and short term stuff, not loving relationships. Him dating fizz is hypocritical of him, thats the issue

[@OwlpoAnimations]

@@adamsayer11And the show literally points that out. Bee also isn’t gluttonous in a general sense, the sins have been shown to not actually have to act like the sin they embody.

[@thegotlandisfarmer8774]

I see it as what people expect from a deadly sim it’s more a myth and sinners and he’ll born believe in it, but some of them like Ozzy and Bee are not like that and don’t wanna be what people want them to be thay wanna be themselves, remember that Lucifer it’s a fallen angel that got banish to hell because he wanted humanity to be free and live there live and not slave away for gods

[@maravreloaded]

Hazbin follows the rules of Vivziepop's a*hole.

[@BBMacsWorld]

I think it makes sense that Sinners don't know about the cast system. So, they don't see IMP as a business ran by low class citizens. They just see it like "Oh cool, I can get my revenge" Also, aside from Paimon. Every royal demon seems to be in a relationship with a low class Demon. It seems to be what Viv is going for. Even Lucifer kinda, since Charlie's mother technically used to be a human. I do agree with most things you said tho. I also don't think it makes sense for Hell to have a prison or rehab. (The Hell hound jail is fine though. That makes perfect sense)

[@A-Clear_View]

its another way of exploting you the rehab ain't achally suposed to reabilitate you it reabilitates you and you get adicted again and its an endless sicle everything is desighned to get you in an enless sicle of tormant

[@whatscookingoodlookin1]

I think the prisons could work but only in a sense where what’s considered a “crime” depends on the societal rules of the specific ring. For example in greed, if you steal from a nobody or a random guy, no one would probably give a shit, but if you steal from a bank owned by Mammon (I think that’s where Moxie was stealing from in that one episode), you’ll be put in a sort of prison that’s catered and owned by him. To get past the “he could just kill them,” maybe the prisons are designed like labor camps that make him more money the more people are put in it? So he’d actually profit from having jails Another place where the jails would work could be the lust ring because Asmodeus himself cares a lot about consent as he basically said in that one other episode, so anyone who breaks that would probably go to jail on account that that’s not what the lust ring stands for The rehabs though? I have no idea lmao, my only idea is that this Hell is recreated in the image of the living world, either by Lucifer or the sins or something else whatever- so shit like the idea of “rehab” just kinda leaked through and ended up in hell, no idea how that would happen. My only other guess is that the rehab and other places claiming to “better your health” are actually just there for other purposes to dive em more into sin-but that’s a reach- I can understand jails but rehab, no idea

[@Gamer_G33k]

Yup, Lilith is a Sinner, not a demon.

[@bubblycups]

I thought the Lilith here was the first human woman who was later turned into a monster, in turn the mother of demons?

[@sasori2425]

1.) humans/sinners aren't as low as imps 2.) Not knowing about the cast system does not mean humans wouldn't uphold it when they learned about it and it's advantages, remember these ARE sinners therefore are more likely to take advantage of the caste system 3.) Lilith becomes a demon she stopped being human and depending on the mythology you read, she was a demon from the get go.

[@alejandrovallejo4330]

I completely agree that the series has a “nice” problem. Meaning that the characters are often too nice. This is something I noticed myself and while it would be nice for the series to go back to portray them as horrible people, I still like the series overall.

[@dazzlingdexter5060]

to be fair, Octavia is very sheltered and clearly grew up rich and hates her mom. So she probobly wouldnt have classism. She probobly would not be classist. she would very likely be a rich Sheltered kid who maybe assumes everyone is the same as her and doesnt understand that some people have less. Her mother is Classist but she seems to mainly care about her dad and her dad is not classist. So she just has the influence of RICH and SHELTERED and RICH & SHELTERED is a different outcome to RICH and CLASSIST.

[@user-yp9xs9fn6q]

Moxie only cares for the family bc of the mom, he lost his own mom and can’t comprehend they can be bad.

[@malevores]

Remember that moxxies father was a very terrible person, so yes they can be bad

[@jamesjesse9773]

Inconsistency is Viv's whole thing... This the one pet peeve I have.

[@Dr.Elric47]

Mammon is the only normal sin in the series

[@okami-chan9772]

Yeah I can definitely agree with you about how Hell is like Earth in that universe. Especially how people get offended by certain words that are considered slurs in the show which I thought Hell is basically fair game where you can say and do whatever you want down there. For example: Luna calling the "Mean Girl" Hellhound a 'bitch' and everybody got offended by it in season 1 episode 8; I guess they try to make it similar like calling a woman a "C U Next Tuesday" but toward the Hellhound, yet isn't it factual to call a female dog that? As somebody who has been watching the KZbin series for a while, I couldn't imagine how strict Heaven would be in the show. I mean, we've already witnessed it in the episode involving the cherubs; just one simple slip-up or mistake you're screwed. 😕

[@A-Clear_View]

in the univerese hell is bacicly earth exept thats where all bad people go everyones imortal theres no social standard and laws are bacicly none existent and theres no consiquinese for your action thus there no point of doing nice thigns and if you want to punch that man in the face you punch that man in the face in the vizipop lore

[@stevenhiggins3055]

It might be even more severe than that. Hellhounds are, well, hounds and as the original meaning of "b*tch" is "female dog" it may carry some racist connotations for them.

[@Evergreen_Wizard]

Also I have another point: no one treats the Deadly Sins as immortal ageless beings, not even the plot. And they don’t seems to act like it too. One might assume that creatures that are basically deities, who existed since the beginning of Hell and will exist till the end of time and have infinite experience would treat mortal demons as… ants? Everything that is to be seen they have seen. They are not just royalty, they are gods of Hell. Yet they perceive time as normal humans. They are not at all distant. They are treated like some sort of super-powered business bosses. I’m obviously biased towards this kind of worldbuilding and everything I say is subjective but I wish that at least the most ancient and powerful 7 entities of Hell would have a little more alien morals when compared to everyone else in the story.

[@krabkrabby]

You're perfectly right.

[@billcipher8645]

Ozzie says "he knew Mammon since Hell started existing" so they are immortal, it just doesn't seem like it. I also disliked how they demystified Ars Goetia and Stolas especially-in s1e2 he sung about stars and the end of the world like he saw a lot and is aware he will be there for a very long time.. but later we learn he is THE SAME AGE as Blitzo. That seems like a huge retcon! Also, how often do royals die? By assasination I'm assuming. How old is Paimon? How many children are there to the throne? Stolas CAN'T be the first so he isn't really that close to the top of the hierarchy. Asmodeus is the king so there's no way Paimon will ever become the king (or anyone else for that matter) so is Paimon higher in hierarchy just because of his age? Where did Stella came from, are there multiple Ars Goetia families? Are there multiple kings? It makes no sense as they added those details but I'm assuming they didn't want to go the incest route (still went for arranged marriages anyway..) but also didn't want the princes and princesses to marry lower class demons

[@Evergreen_Wizard]

@@billcipher8645 Yeah, making the demon of Knowledge and prophecies just a middle-aged mortal disappointed me.

[@aromantisism]

20:21 i agree with most of your points, but i do have to mention that ozzie's view of lust is a bit more complicated than just "sex" and that i think it does make sense that he would be against non-consensual sex because lust is about the feeling and desire, and even a bit of an art, to be "earned", rather than "forced".

[@Faolan-qe9vl]

right. I recall someone comparing it to like, a competitive sport; where it's better "earned", and using potions and the like are equivalent to steroids in the Olympics.

[@littlemoth4956]

That's still really weird for the lust ring in hell lol. People go there for the sin of lust, don't they? Wouldn't being a sexual predator land you DEAD CENTER in the type of people who thrive in the lust ring?

[@artistanthony1007]

He's still a Ruler of a Hell Ring, why would he care about consent?

[@tevenpowell8023]

Makes sense. If it's not consensual then there's only one Lustful part. With consent there's two. IE, consent means MORE Lust.

[@OpaloAzul]

R***apists usually search for power rather than the pure lust that sources from a consensual act. That said, Ozzie should also sniff at the idea of romanticism and it's not the case. For what we know, THAT type of people could be cherished in the lust ring but we only have Ozzie's perspective.

[@torpid5092]

I specifically don't like people saying "It's hell!!!" to justify the constant swearing and sex jokes, I don't care WHY they're saying it, the line "fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck" is meaningless and not funny regardless of the setting of the show. But for moral goodness of characters, I agree with you. Charlie is good, Angel is suggested to be good, all of I.M.P, Stolas, Asmodeous, Bee, there are a whole lot of good or good leaning characters in this show set in HELL.

[@Pinepineisfine]

its an ADULT SHOW made for ADULTS but god forbid someone think theres too much profanity in a adult show! It's FOR ADULTS, and adults know to IGNORE if they DON'T LIKE, SO OBVIOUSLY U NEED TO SERIOUSLY GROW IP BEFORE WATCHING! Seriously mamn people these days...😂😂😂

[@torpid5092]

@@Pinepineisfine Im not upset by the swearing I just don't find it funny or tonally appropriate.

[@simple-commentator-not-rea7345]

The most NON-Hellish Hell ever in Media, most definetly.

[@ellanimation816]

I think the pilot can be ignored since it’s not cannon, it’s a pilot

[@pogggaming4470]

And yet hazbin hotel’s pilot is a exception, its somewhat canon

[@rainbowbrony12]

I can't help but agree with every point you make on the sins and their kingdoms, and it's all the reason I appreciate Mammon from the latest episode. Mammon is depicted as the perfect embodiment of greed. He steals, exploits, and doesn't care how many suffer as a result of his selfish desires. His kingdom is a wreck, full of crime and poverty, while he sits atop his throne of wealth, still hungry for more. He IS greed, and Ozzie and Bee both could learn a thing from him.

[@PotatoChicken-gg1ju]

On this topic, one person noted that the "hell" in helluva boss/hazbin hotel is not "theological hell", meaning that this fictional hell doesn't necessarily follow what Christians believe hell to be like. With that being said, I think the portrayal of the sins can be explained by "what non-religious people have been told by extremely religious people about sin". OF COURSE Ozzie's "worst" character trait is being comfortable with his sexuality, OF COURSE the sin of gluttony is just your average party animal, because most people have had at least one old grandma in their life tell them that drinking alcohol and having sexual urges are sinful.

[@himmelblau8192]

The worst Problem is is that they made Blitzo a side character

[@krabkrabby]

True

[@CathTish]

The problem with how Hell is presented in Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss is that, it suffers from what I like to call - "Fantasised Hell Condition" -. What I mean by that Is, the show takes the Biblical narrative of Hell - demons, fire, misery - and turns it into what is basically immortal LA. They even point it out in the second ep of Season 2. Vivzipop uses Biblical characters and sins, and just OC's them into likeable characters living in a idealistic Hell without actually making it Hell. If the characters didn't point out they were in Hell, or that Lucifer, the Seven Deadly Sins, or even Heaven existed, then someone would think it's just someone's OC world rather than a story set in literal Hell.

[@SickSomno]

Apologies, just had to stick my nose in. In Hazbin Hotel charlie says that hell was created when Eve ate the fruit of knowledge. Hell was not created to punish sinners, the realm appeared as a result of Eve's actions and the angels banished Lucifer and the sinners there so that he would be eternally punished for disobeying the order the angels were trying to achieve. "As punishment for their reckless act, Heaven cast Lucifer and his love into the dark pit he had created, never allowing him to see the good that came from humanity, only the cruel and the wicked." All those traits you mentioned as the biblical narrative exist the demons, the fire, the misery, its all there; but hell wasn't designed to make sinners/hellborn suffer it was appropriated to make LUCIFER suffer by sticking him with all the sinners.

[@yinyangyt8749]

I get your points honestly. I knew that the hierarchy was a thing but it feels very non existent in the show

[@bluespectrum1348]

New episode came out and...Christ. please please please make another video on the Issue of the 7 Deadly Sins. Asmodeus, the supposed Embodiment of Sin being in a monogamous, healthy relationship, being lovey dovey, caring about consent, being "uncomfortable" about making sex toys of Fizz...PLEASE I'M OUT, WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH LUST 💀 Blitz is 1000000 times more lustful than the Embodiment of Lust himself, is so stupid. Not to mention Bee. Jeez. Please make a whole video on this because I see other fans justifying this sayig that "Lust and Gluttony are good things until Greed kicks in" which makes absolutely no sense and its rooted in the (by the way incorrect) "modern" use of the words lust and gluttony as "a high sex drive" and "likes to eat a lot", when in reality Lust and Gluttony as Sins are extremely destructive and negative. I enjoy the show but..yeah..the Sins are a joke. I ADORE Mammon because he really embodies his Sin. Funnily enough people absolutely hated him, AS WE SHOULD! We should feel icky about all the deadly sins because guess what, they are not supposed to be good, healthy people who care about consent and moderation. Absolutely ridiculous.

[@snostalgia-ll4yc]

Right? The worst part is that Vivziepop has shown what's she's capable of writing. Just look at Valentino! When Addict came out, sex workers were praising her depiction of abuse in the industry. How she saw what worked and STILL managed to fumbled this archetype is beyond me. What makes it all the more frustrating is that she killed it with Asmodeus' debut. His song provided fantastic characterization! Then his personality did a complete 180 in season 2. This mf was encouraging the spread of STDs in his introduction song. Now the narrative expects me to believe he cares about consent??? He went from "🎶 Grab your groin or a bust. You better get your head mussed. Pretend you don't see that crust. Hump 'til your junk turns to dust!" to "I don't like making sex toy replicas of my boyfriend." It's downright goofy 🙄 (Side note, why are side characters like Asmodeus and Fizz being fleshed out and given arcs before Millie and Octavia? All of this could have been avoided if the main cast was the MAIN focus. By all means give Fizzarolli screentime, he deserves it. But Asmodeus? Really?)

[@bluespectrum1348]

@@snostalgia-ll4yc 100%, agree I miss OG Asmodeus. 😢

[@PadraigG8]

Bee and Ozzie being semi-decent actually makes a certain theological sense, as Gluttony and Lust are traditionally considered the 'least' deadly of the Seven Deadly Sins.

[@mkay5649]

Fully agree with your perspective. It does feel like they want the appeal of using darker topics and elements but not fully committing to it - it just comes off feeling sanitized. Humanizing the characters to make them relatable is natural to tell stories and character arcs. But as you said, it feels like woobifying them instead with how much they try to make them be 'good'. And it actually makes it feel less of an adult show and more of a teenage show because they watered down so much of these elements. I don't think adult shows really need to have 'btw don't forget these are bad things and why :3' talks. It doesn't stop me from enjoying the show entirely, but it does get me bummed because it feels like the potential of what they could do could be higher and more complex.

[@tokunerdmore3028]

Strangely enough, Helluva Boss makes the whole plot of Hazbin pretty meaningless.

[@Featheryfaith7]

It does. I hate these two series so much.

[@BonazaiGirl]

I agree and disagree. I think one key component in Helluva Boss is that it explores the lives of _native born_ demons. Unlike Sinners, the native born demons, like imps and hellhounds, are able to traverse the rings of hell, while sinners are confined to the Pride Ring, where I’m guessing the annual extermination takes place. And, as we witnessed with the succubi and I.M.P., they can even go to Earth under particular circumstances. The natives have, ironically, more freedom than the Sinners in regards to what they can do. While we don’t know the full details until Hazbin Hotel comes out, I think that the native born demons are primarily safe from the exterminations, _or_ at least are able to evade it by either going to the rings further down or, in the cases of the succubi, even Earth itself. Still, all things considered, this version of Hell is surprisingly, for lack of a better term, “livable.” It’s obvious that demons have managed to somehow make a life there, which is shocking for a place that’s supposed to be all about torture and punishment. The fact that instead of fire and brimstone, it’s basically a place to live out your worst vices and sins with barely any hindrance definitely gives off a “Hell is other people” vibe more than anything, but there’s an incredible amount of infrastructure and civility and even love and friendships are somehow established there. Hell (pun intended), if it weren’t for the annual exterminations, and rowdy folk, sinners can actually live _relatively_ okay lives.

[@mrbeastfan8079]

how?

[@tokunerdmore3028]

@@mrbeastfan8079 The fact of Charlie is being mocked for thinking people in hell care about being good people yet we have overlords and other demons being nice.

[@mrbeastfan8079]

@tokunerdmore3028 their strictly talking about sinners who are the bad people that need to be redeemed. In helluva boss we have Holborn demons that can't get into heaven regardless of if they are good or not. Also we don't have any overlords in Helluva boss

[@WhiteAnims2]

Things that don't make any sense in Helluva Boss: 1) Why are Sinners more higher than Hellborn Demons even though Sinners were supposed to have eternal punishment? 2) Why is there a Jail and Justice system in hell even though "its hell"? 3) Why is there a marriage thing, in hell? 4) Why are Royals in relationship with low class demons? 5) Why is there an IRS Imp in the Greed Ring? 6) Why is there a Fire Department in Hell? Like.. what the fuck? Isn't hell supposed to be a painful firey pit of suffering? 7) Why is hell full of gay demons..? I know there are more shit in this series that I do not know or forgot to mention, but uh.. damn.

[@phantomwolf105]

The way I see the show it isn't a traditional depiction of hell it's just a society down there the native born demons aren't inherently evil the answer to most of your questions is that they have a society and that's why those things exist, the Sinners are being punished not the native demons this version of hell is just Earth but more red basically. I'm interested how you will take my different opinion on this ((the edit is grammar changes))

[@bluespidergaming7719]

1 sinners haing to be punished for being in hell implies that they have some sort of value 2 the jail and justice system only exists in greed probably the ring known for people being greedy dont like their stuff getting stolen 3 can really make an argument for marrige in hell but cant really make an argument for it also not being in hell 4 its really just a story thing cant make an argument for it although it has been shown that members of their own cast dislike the idea of one of their own dating lower class 5 take a wild guess 6 once again story effect maybe thiers some lore implication but im not sure 7 shouldnt have to explain this 1

[@x_slaughotto_x3129]

5) actually makes a lot of sense 💀

[@ethejumper6568]

It be funny if you included... "Why? Why? Why?"

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

​​@@bluespidergaming7719it has been stated that sinners are immortal constantly dying in the turf war with other sinners. It seems like a sinner greater power than hellborn since they are unable to die and create the technology and revolutionize the society of hell. From the spin-off. Some sinners are on equal footing with Hell lord Valentine with the sin of lust

[@SilverKeyKeeper]

class system: the cast system isn't strict, its social. Being better than your class is difficult but not impossible. It is unfair but freedom is a big part of hell so nothing is made impossible Blitz, Fizz, Strikker, Crimson, ext are exceptions rather than the norm. Pilot moxi: the pilot is non canon. Where is the punishment: The punishment is mainly focused on the pride ring. Helluva boss mostly focuses on hellborn so the daily life of sinners is currently unknown. Also transportation is limited to the Hellborn and blitz money is an exception and he is also out of money often. Technology: they are at a prince of hells party and well off. them having a phone is not exceptional Vortex and bee vs Asmodeus and Fizz: Asmodeus brands himself with lust so him being in love is a scandal. Else the princes aren't portrayed as caring for social class blitz at bees party: Bee wants gluttony she is concerned and defeated in the contest because Blitz isn't gluttonous, he's saddened. Her bowing to him is consistent with the princes not caring about class. The class focus stops at the Arse Goetia Octavia hates Stella, but doesnt want to lose her dad, she likely has some classicism she needs to work on but nothing that gets in the way of connecting with Loona Crimson hasnt been caught because: its greed no one cares about getting caught, and he brutally suppress anyone who would go against him and makes trophies of their remains Homophobia is usually used by people who wants to show themselves as higher class than the person they are talking down to. Millies parents: they are from wrath if you are forceful they will accept you, Moxi isn't Sloth checkup: The lady is from envy, she holds herself on a pedestal because she isn't vulgar and uses this difference to berate the lower class Palaces in pride: Its close to the king and close to earth. Anyone who would leave pride because of the sinners where likely shamed for leaving their ancestral homes USA vs Hell: we do not know her financial situation, and her job right after was smuggling heroin into sloth... which doesn't really prove that she left for free Asmoedeus and bee want healthy indulgence. They embody the temptation of their sins. If Lust was rampant STDs and consent was left at the elevator no one would be tempted by it. Same argument goes for Bee. Wrath should be the temptation of asserting power over others by force Gluttony should be the temptation of indulging to the brink of excess Sloth should be the temptation of during the bare minimum Envy should be the putting yourself on a pedestal Lust should be the temptation of lust not its horrors Greed self explanatory Pride self explanatory Helluva boss and Charlies struggle in Hazbin Hotel aren't mutually exclusive, The difference between the sinners and the hell born will probably be more obvious when Hazbin Hotel comes out

[@chibiarts9029]

i see it as being more like the British class system rather than Indian caste system everyone's very classist and nothing really exists to help with social mobility but one or two exceptional people can beat the odds and make a name for themselves with a lot of luck but most people are stuck in the class they were born into just because its so hard to build up anything the show says itself that its very rare for an imp to manage to own a business

[@newandroid2673]

Only thing I disagree with is the "The king of lust shouldn't care about consent" Gr@pe isn't necessarily lust, the only lust part of sin with it is the sex part. The lack of consent is more Wrath, since it isn't lust or any type of sexual thing outside of the sex portion while it is entirely an act of bringing harm to someone

[@rocbenaa1963]

Uhhh....... yes it is?! Rape IS lust!! vengance IS wrath.

[@newandroid2673]

@@rocbenaa1963 Never said vengence wasn't wrath. Nothing about lust says anything about violence of any kind, it's just sexual behaviours. As I said gr@pe is technically lust but only because of the sex part, it's more suited to wrath because of it hurting someone. It's less lust then sex is because at least one person isn't participating willingly and it doesn't count for them. It makes sense for the overlord of lust to prefer someone tempt someone else into lust, too, then simply indulge themselves

[@axios4702]

If the writer can let herself be influenced by Tumblr, she is not a good writer.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

There's some things you missed for example that it wouldn't make sense for imps or other hell borns being punished since they aren't *sinners* and sinners ARE punished, for example despite supposedly being higher on the caste system then imps, they can't travel to other hell rings(which funnily enough IS accurate to irl Indian caste system where even highest ranked caste members still lacked some rights that lower ranked had) But broadly I agree with you that sadly Helluva Boss failed at world building which, may not be too big of a deal but it does take away from the show and makes it feel less, timeless ig?

[@merusotajio2222]

But it's weird hell is made for punishing sinners what is the purpose of hellborns if they aren't torturing sinners ????

[@thegotlandisfarmer8774]

@@merusotajio2222I believe thay existed before hell became they place to punish sinners, but when Lucifer and the other was banish god choose he’ll because it’s was the perfect place to keep them and sinner lock away, hellborn did not have any choice then accept the new life because thay could not do anything against fallen angels and sinners with powers

[@n.a.s.k5972]

Well one thing, is Mammon will probably be the most evil of the sins we've seen so far

[@Space0fox]

About "where is hell" problem I have very easy answer - it is only a torture and hell for SINNISTERS, not everyone.

[@Featheryfaith7]

Thats what Hell is. Earthly passions, illusions and materialism. Take out that one Tarot card...

[@abhikergaming7783]

Exactly, same goes for alot of hell borns being good or somewhat decent beings!!!

[@McRosehart]

Sinners don't seem to suffer much especially overlords

[@Featheryfaith7]

@@McRosehart They can still die and be permenantly erased...

[@McRosehart]

@@Featheryfaith7 only by angelic weapons,unlike hellborns(I'm talking about lower classes like succubus,imps.....)

[@hyperdreamer9483]

The thing about Hell is that it’s been implied to have evolved over the millennia with thing recently having been very much changed. Sinners coming to hell have brought knowledge from their lives on Earth to Hell. Not to mention that the Seven Deadly Sins run their own rings having the own rules and personalities, like compare Greed to Wrath or Pride to Sloth all these places are very different from each other having their own atmospheres and ecosystems. Also Bee clearly let Blitzø win since she knew he wasn’t being gluttonous and was simply drowning out his sorrows, the Sinners in regards to Ozzie and Bee seem to enjoy when people force themselves into the sin they represent but participate due to enjoying it which leads to the Sins each having their own business. Hell is still Hell but it’s evolved to change with the times possibly to keep Sinners there and never get redemption which is where Charlie comes in for Hazbin Hotel.

[@hyperdreamer9483]

The thing with the Sins is they’re a lot more like business owners, I don’t think they’d care if someone died from their sin but if that person dies it’s a consumer lost and will effect their business even if slightly. They’re fine with people indulging in their sins to their heart’s content, but they’d rather limit extremes and death in overconsumption since it’s a lose in potential business

[@2vectors708]

Bee was more concerned with blitzo giving off the negative vibe and bringing other people down than she was about his drinking, based on what she says she's essentially an empath that feeds on the emotions and that's generally where her gluttony comes from, probably why she was drugging up everyone at the party that ate her candy

[@artistanthony1007]

She's a fxcking Ruler of Hell, she should be used to negative energy and Blitz' negative energy is absolutely tame compared to other Demons in other Rings, Bee would have duties to do in Rings like Greed so she shouldn't be acting or responding like it is foreign.

[@moxymax]

One thing about the "lack of evil" that makes it less problematic for me is that in helluva boss we see the perspective of demons. They are born and raised in hell, they are not sinners. For me at least it makes sense that beings from hell doesn't really have to be evil, just socialy pathological, and well they seem to be just that in many cases, getting drunk, killing each other without remorse, lying, having problems with aggression etc. Also yeah it's Hell, but it's not like there are only hardcore killers in Hell, there might be people who were liars, thieves, cheaters, people with addictions or even suicide victims. Other thing is that let's be real, even evil people are not evil all the time and for everyone. As for many amenities, i get it might be not really hellish, but i think Vivzie stated that it's not really a 100% accurate biblical hell. Other thing is that we don't really know how your typical sinner live is looking in Hell, cause let's be honest Helluva Boss and Pilot for Hazbin Hotel didn't give us POV of your typical sinner that ended up in hell.

[@MildTomfoolery123]

My biggest gripe with the world building is how it kinda forgets what hell is supposed to be. Hell is the place where you go when you die, it’s an idea forged in the concept that souls endure after death. And the only way a sinner can be killed is if they are killed with an angelic weapon that erases your soul. But then the hellborn when killed just, die. It doesn’t even have to be with a weapon, they can trip and fall and simply die. I get that they aren’t supposed to have souls but from a world building perspective that doesn’t make sense. What makes hellborn different, they act just like humans. They have emotions and they can love. The idea that hellborn can just die and have no afterlife makes no sense in a world with heaven and hell.

[@SwfanredLotr]

The more I think about this show and the rants, I'm began to think that setting it in Hell was a mistake to begin with. They might aswell made into a dimension similar to Halloween Town from Nightmare Before Christmas.

[@DinoTamer-22]

Personally I find that throwing everything you think you know about hell out the window and see it as it’s own world helps but yeah it is inconsistent and the world isn’t explained well.

[@A-Clear_View]

bruh ask that to a fnaf lore fanatic also watch this Vortex X Beelzebub: Explaining Hell’s Double Standard Ozzie X Fizz: Hell's Healthiest Couple? - Helluva Boss Kings, Overlords, & the 7 Deadly Sins: the Hierarchy of Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel Explained!

[@moeheil8839]

Helluva boss focusses on hellborn, they didnt earn damnation, they were born into it, so moral complexity should be expected

[@andregarcia18]

Helluva Boss basically became a fanfic by now

[@rutyqutykandi1361]

Asmodeus from actual lore is a pretty odd character. He actually isn't good or bad in the older texts. So seeing him behave as he does in the show wasn't so out of character. But Belzebub could be fixed by making the current design her Loona. I literally thought Belzebub proper was actual Belzebubs pet magic hellhound. That would at least explain things better.

[@Zthewise]

About the mafia thing. Don't forget they were made by groups deemed second class citizens in our world. So, Crimson being a Mafia don isn't to far-fetched.

[@JP-uf9sh]

I had a very strong reaction about Bee having a hellhound as a "partner". I really hope that there is something more to it that the show does not chicken out of. It would make for a good drama if she "slipped up" calling him pet or got made fun of because of it.

[@josephgrube]

The thing that confuses me is that the ones at the tops, the Sins, Charlie, Lilith, and Lucifer don’t care about class standards and basically ignore the heirarchy. Only the Ars Goetia actually seem to care about upholding class standards

[@Austrian_Butcher]

I absolutely understand these points, however let me throw my hat in the ring. Hazbin Hotel seemed so hellish is because the earth born sinners have literally nothing to lose at all anymore besides their eternal life during purges. Hell born sinners have their own society which was also likely built over millennia and while true its hell, they arent the ones who are being punished. The cast system and the 7 deadly sins however I think you are absolutely correct.

[@conorandkanohi]

I think Ozzy & Fizz being in love works because its seen in-universe to be something that could get Ozz in a lot of trouble. Someone once mentioned that it would be interesting if a sin could lose their status if they didnt subscribe to their sins enough, & id love to see if that could happen. Beelzebub needs a complete rework though.

[@LunNightMoonLight]

The show wants to be edgy but not that edgy it’s really softening all of its “bad guys”

[@yYSilverFoxYy]

Stolas used to be a creepy but funny sexual harasser in the pilot. They toned him down to a family friendly bookworm dad. It bothers me a lot.

[@ciciplease9909]

Oh my god. You did it. You explained my main issues with this show These issues genuinely bother me so much, so I'm glad that you can still love this show despite said issues

[@Bairinde]

"Is the USA supposed to be worse than hell?" Look at the healthcare system and tell me it isn't worse than hell already.

[@aaronlaluzerne6639]

Yeah, a part of me is convinced that Helluva Boss and its overall story telling and quality is going to actual Hell in a hand basket. My biggest concern is that it will end like Star vs The Forces of the Universe, Voltron, and Game of Thrones and everything will get fucked up in the end.

[@zerosysko]

Game of Thrones was a spectacular divebomb. Only Dexter might beat it for worse series finale ever. Scrubs will forever have the best, most satisfying ending in my opinion. (Another season? I don't know what you're talking about.)

[@Cupids_mutt]

I think that bee is probably a manipulator thats why she seems so nice and caring and looking at the hellhounds theres a hierarchy of them depending on what family adopts you

[@Carol-cr6sw]

The such "hierarchy" that they say there's in Hell only works when it's important to X's character drama plot

[@polish_pigeon]

I completely agree with all you said. It really bothers me a lot how nobody makes it a big deal that highest Hell's royalties and figures date the "scraps of the table" so casually and it's totally normal (Like Bee and Vox) or they don't care much about it being public (Lile Ozzie and Fizz)..

[@codafett]

We've gotten to a point now where this world in which the characters inhabit is no longer hell. There's no true hierarchy, no authority and barely any evil. Like at this point, how is it even a big deal if Blitzo and Stolas are seeing each other? Clearly no one's going to stop them.

[@aliceseguel]

I don’t think hell is a suffering place for hellborns, like hellhounds and imps. Because sinners can’t travel trough rings, and it’s supposed to be a suffering place for them, and for hellborns it’s supposed to be like earth (normal day life for them)

[@EmSwaff2]

As much as I think Bee and Tex's relationship is cute, I feel like she's the type to date and dump fast. Like if she "dates" Hellhounds but dips once they start to bore her I could see that being fine. She'd just be using the low class hounds as toys basically and not really caring once she's done with them. Tex is just the latest arm candy for her and has been "lucky" enough to be kept around as long as he has.

[@badconnection4383]

If you have a caste system in your show, USE IT! Show what it is like to be at the bottom vs being at the top, don't have characters saying that their lives are hard unless you SHOW proof. And if your show takes place in hell, then show that as well. A long time ago, a friend showed me season 1 when I was in 9th grade in an attempt to get me into the show. I liked the colors, but it wasn't for me because it made Hell look FUN. What if there was a dichotomy between how the Lords of Hell and their underlings lived versus how the sinners lived? Sinners would get tortured repeatedly for a simple mistake, with some having gotten there over committing a minor sin in their past lives, while Lords of Hell would be having as much fun as they want at the cost of the sinners' expense.

[@judgmentalanimal]

I still think Moxie’s character would’ve been 10 times better if he was from the Pride ring.

[@mrbeastfan8079]

?

[@naghtel1228]

TLDR; make hell worse, now you cooking something

[@mattdarrock666]

Bee just has to say Vortex is her pet and no one would question it. Beside, beastiality would belong in Hell, not heaven...

[@Samsa739]

"is the U.S.A. supposed to be worse than hell???" Have you ever gone to the hospital in the US without health insurance? That's hell right there....

[@ChildOfCosmos]

It really feels like Vivzie is just picking favorites with her characters. She wants us to believe some of them are complete irredeemable bastards with no nuance (like Stella and Mammon), while others are the precious little babies that are not evil, just misunderstood (like Stolas). And I think it's an universal law for a writer: you should never hate your characters, even if they are the most vile of beings.

[@thereptilianartist1376]

Tbf about the whole lust and consent thing, sexual abuse/force or violence is more often down to power, not lust. Lust does not equal forcing it onto someone. But otherwise a great video, I agree about most of the world building stuff which frustrated me. I'm a stickler myself even for any fantasy genre, so I wish the whole caste system stuff was more solid in Helluva Boss. I also suppose you could put the Wrath thing down to more strength than masculinity since Sally May doesn't seem to be treated different. Maybe a case where as long as you present savage traits or something? I can't speculate there, I don't knoe enough. But I don't so much mind them clarifying that lust is for the pleasure of everyone involved, rather than force which I'd equate more with another selfish ring. Again, every other inconsistency I agree with. The fact Bee seems to treat her Hellhounds as equals. I'd actually like if she 'spoiled' them like how we spoil pets if that makes sense? A good turn around to how abused Hellhounds are while it still showing their place would be interesting. Or the fact Fizz seems to be treated above imps because of a distorted Hell version of colourism because he doesn't 'look' like an imp at all anymore, but instead some demonic jester. Enjoyed the vid, watched it while doing some work. ❤❤

[@Featheryfaith7]

Well no, lust can cause rape...

[@thereptilianartist1376]

@@Featheryfaith7 Lust isn't the reason, like being horny isn't the reason people CHOOSE to rape. It's a choice to do something over lust, usually fuelled by something more messed up which has nothing to do with wanting to bang someone. Just what do to with it. Usually it's a power play down to any number of messed up thought processes or what kind of monster someone is. It's about having power in an intimate way, which happens to be sexually violating as not much else can compare to that kind of violation.

[@Featheryfaith7]

@@thereptilianartist1376 My faith would disagree about that. Ever heard of demonic posession or opression and severe passions? A saint died from his passions. ☦

[@thereptilianartist1376]

@@Featheryfaith7 I'm not sure entertaining this is worth the amusement.

[@Featheryfaith7]

@@thereptilianartist1376 Its not entertaining but fucked up...

[@christosgiannopoulos828]

I remember when I was watching Helluva Boss, even from the first season my biggest complain was that hell didn't feel hellish enough. Like many of the places were just like bad neighborhoods on earth (not nearly as bad as it should be). And then I watched the Hazbin Hotel pilot and was like "Yes. That's what it should be like" As for Beelzebub's behaviour, maybe she was just too high to even understand what was going on and only stopped Blitz because he was ruining the good vibes

[@benimaruuwu87]

I think the whole thing about stolas getting bashed for sleeping with an imp while no one bets an eye about the sins is because he is a goisha. The way i interprete the hierarchy of hell is that the only ones who really take it seriously are the goishas. They are the lowest royals in hell and maybe are compensating for that. The other classes not giving a sh*t about the hierachy is pretty hell like too in my opinion. After all, luciver and the 6 other princes of hell were angesl once and got banned because they disregarded heavens system and spoke up to god. Therefore hell also doesnt purely exist to punish sinners but as a place for rebels. Not everyone in hell has to be mean and especially not the demons. Sinners are probably mostly bad people but they are only allowed to stay in the pride ring so the rest of hell might actually be pretty chill without all them serial k*llers and sh*t

[@sherlockhomeless4928]

What I assume is the reason, that the Ars Goetia is so against their own screwing an imp, is because...well they have different standards. The Sins are well...sins, meaning they really dont give a damn. The Ars Goetia is more royal ironically enough. And having sex with what is essentially the bottom of the barrel is unacceptable. It makes perfect sense, but I have to say that it's not shown all too much.

[@astrocat1013]

No it doesn’t

[@sherlockhomeless4928]

@@astrocat1013 why not?

[@mrbeastfan8079]

@@astrocat1013 that's your opinion

[@Barksdale-em8sw]

@@sherlockhomeless4928 the reason it doesn't make sense is the only 2 sins we've met are Goetias granted as sins your right they don't give a damn, but the concept of two of the highest ranked members of the Ars Goetia don't care because the other lesser ones are "more royal" isn't a really strong reason I think a better way to look at it is the opposite, they have so much power they don't have to worry about their status since no one can threaten it really.

[@sherlockhomeless4928]

@@Barksdale-em8sw The Goetias are seperate entities from the sins in Helluva and Hazbin. And it's clear that the sins do not give a damn about who screws who. They act more like celebrities than royalty. While the goetia do act like royalty. So my point still stands

[@funkyvamp]

On thing ive gotta say for the whole moxxie killing in the pilot but then having family values and stuff: Pilots for shows are often different from the final product (a prototype of sorts) and tbf, a good bit of stuff were changed from pilot to full show (both technical and lore wise). Stolas no longer asks i.m.p. to take hits, tilla is now blitz's mom instead of another sibling, gender based imp horn patterns and hair were added, etc

[@A-Clear_View]

it can be explained rather easily and they probelly ret conned it