TF2: Buffing The Spy

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0:00 Intro
0:25 Disguise Kit
0:45 The Enforcer
2:03 Your Eternal Reward
2:54 The Ambassador
4:01 The Red-Tape Recorder
6:37 The Wrangler
8:03 Non-Spy Changes
8:41 The Diamondback
9:26 The Conniver's Kunai
10:05 Responding to Backlash

[@HeyGrouch]

Yep, this is a re-upload. Don't tell anybody. It'll be our secret.

[@user-kf4ly5ii9v]

What happened

[@eugeniaamariei8626]

Sir, the second tf2 balance video has been re-uploaded.

[@iamewp]

Why did you do ti!!!

[@mrstudent9125]

Why?

[@thecluckster3908]

What happened?

[@the_epic_buckethead]

My favorite part of this video was when grouch said "it reuploadin time" and reuploaded all over the place and inflicted bleed on everyone

[@HeyGrouch]

Just you wait until I add bleed to a blast weapon. Just you wait.

[@the_epic_buckethead]

@@HeyGrouch cant wait for ulapool basher

[@AntiDragon]

@@HeyGrouch add bleed to the medigun

[@GunSpyEnthusiast]

@@HeyGrouch That's called shrapnel.

[@Spycrabs137]

Dear lord in heaven

[@SSmiggless]

"mr. president he done did it again... again"

[@Pseudo_Notfound]

"I thought the "zesty jesus" plan had worked the first time... and the next time!"

[@Subatimicopassaro]

A second grouch rebalance video hit the front page... Yet again

[@HeyGrouch]

_"Alert parliament to leave the kitchen... A madman is cooking in there..."_

[@matttheninja990]

-Creates server for people to enjoy funny weapons changes -Receive lots of hate comments -Takes it like a champ and keep making cool changes -Refuses to elaborate

[@HeyGrouch]

I think the Darwins Danger Shield speaks for itself lol

[@matttheninja990]

​@@HeyGrouchthat change is the best one ngl, its so freaking cool, idk why some people went mad at it

[@meepmerp6935]

@@matttheninja990 In my opinion it should instead damage the sniper every time he jumps, or further reduce max ammo to prevent spam-use

[@butlazgazempropan-butan11k87]

He recirved hate comments because he made the first video look like a proposal to how you can balance tf2 weapons.

[@irgendwer3610]

that's how you do youtube, you need to have a thick skin

[@Goblinboyo162]

“I honestly thought I was buffing this thing by giving it one shot-“ no.

[@Goblinboyo162]

I like the new enforcer though

[@ink-T]

This enforcer is so so so much better than the one you did before

[@ReverieSamedi]

The bleed enforcer was such a hilarious balance 😂. Like all things considered though, that enforcer would theoretically be Spy's best ranged option. Though at the same time, I'd rather just use the Amby at that point.

[@thesurfacepen]

nah bring back the 8 seconds of bleed 😭

[@MarioLuigi0404]

@@ReverieSamediin what world is no damage and a useless DoT spy’s best ranged weapon what

[@ReverieSamedi]

@@MarioLuigi0404 The kind of world where you're picking off an enemy from a long distance to where the falloff is massive. Bleed damage doesn't have fall off. But also I said theoretically, not actually (the unnerfed crit diamondback and ambassador does that job well) Regardless, I'm saying the concept is okay, but the "execution" (no pun intended) is very bad. If he *wanted* to go this route I'd suggest to decrease the damage nerf and make it function like the flying gullotine where it has no base damage fall-off or ramp-up and it still has that bleed effect, just so it's less polarizing. And maybe to top it off, increase the ammo capacity, the ammo reserve, and maybe have it pierce resistance just like the old enforcer. At least then it would have some niche with a bit more practicality. By no means am I saying his previous rendition is a good weapon.

[@SnugWugs137]

Not enough bleed on hit, though.

[@meowmew-]

I actually like the sprint change. It’s useful for Spy if he’s disguised as a tougher class but he has to be careful with it to avoid exposing himself. If it were possible I’d also make him able to mimic engineer hauling a building by pressing reload while disguised as an Engie with the wrench out.

[@HeyGrouch]

That'd be a great change!

[@heavyweaponsguy470]

the sprint thing is also implemented in tf2 classic, its called spywalk

[@TeslaX106]

Actually cooked on the enforcer rework this time.

[@HeyGrouch]

🔥🔥

[@maxwell_edison]

IMO enforcer can be made better simply by following in line with how the current weak version *could* work, and what it should be meat to achieve; The disguised damage buff is interesting but just useless how it works by default. If we make it so the Spy gets 2-3 shots with the empowered damage, and also slightly buff the attack speed when firing out of disguise, it'd be weaker most of the time still but it could be used as a Pick weapon when you get caught out by a stray, weaker enemy in backlines. Think about it: A scout comes around while you are running through the backlines, he looks you DEAD IN THE EYES, and you unload 3 shots into him before he can get to a medpack and kill him. Those 3 shots are fired slightly faster and deal more damage than the normal enforcer, more than the revolver. We put this on a timer, so the spy CANNOT "save" these shots - Either unload 3 empowered shots directly into an enemy when disguised as a desperate attempt to get away, or suffer the current penalty. IMO this gives the enforcer real-game use cases as a backup weapon that isn't as strong normally but gives the Spy opportunity to escape and win in 1v1 picks where he's discovered while disguised. The weapon just needs more than 1 shot to do it, because 1 shot is lame regardless of damage.

[@Hennns]

You forgot about another use of red tape. If you’re following an engineer holding a building, you can bait them into placing down their building to fight you. If you sap the building as soon as it’s placed down, it almost instantly gets destroyed because it starts reverting at the same point it’s constructing in. Very niche, but cool.

[@HeyGrouch]

That's true, that was an awesome feature

[@luk4323]

​@@HeyGrouchwas

[@OmegaRC59]

If you really fish for it, it's a surprisingly applicable upside, I've gotten it to happen 3 times in a match of swiftwater before

[@godofportal5905]

@@HeyGrouch WAS???? THEY FIXED IT???

[@ammi5311]

​@@godofportal5905English moment, why don't you try in game instead .

[@dumbvillage9253]

Still high respect to you for admitting some of your wrongs.

[@HeyGrouch]

thanks :) nobody's perfect!

[@lolchipperson11person12]

I think the enforcer should have less accuracy on top of a smaller clip size, making it so you can’t just spam it.

[@HeyGrouch]

Possibly! We'll test it a bit more and then see if it needs a nerf :)

[@lolchipperson11person12]

@@HeyGrouch alright.

[@dotcomgamingd5564]

Ill re-add my comment: I loooove this new enforcer. it seems fuckin' awesome.

[@HeyGrouch]

it's super fun! hop on the server and try it sometime :)

[@dotcomgamingd5564]

@@HeyGrouch will do!

[@supersain2349]

it's, uh, a but op but fun

[@kuzeyrl]

same

[@scp096butreallife]

Gun spy using enforcer truly is a "THIS TOWN AINT BIG ENOUGH FOR THE TWO OF US!!!" moment

[@HeyGrouch]

Absolutely, and I love it

[@scp096butreallife]

@@HeyGrouch I'm "Anthropomorphic SCP-939" from in grouchland, I'm sure you remember me saying that in chat lol

[@mrstudent9125]

I hope you gave bleed to every weapon.

[@HeyGrouch]

One day...... One day.....

[@El.fish.the.chocolate]

Now I want that the last video of this series would be an april fools were you say that you would revert all the changes and put bleed in every weapon. And say afterward that you are serious... The community would be split... Again...

[@ammi5311]

​@@HeyGrouchi. A serious manner, there's the potential direction found breaking melee as dying wish instead of lucky 1 shot . That's another indirect buff to spy .

[@plantterror]

I made the same mistake when attempting to balance the Red Tape recorder, thinking that a doubled health pool would lead to a better push but in reality it doesn't really do anything due to the existence of other engineers and the homewrecker for pyro. It just ends up being an annoyance rather than a push coordinator, simply wasting the engineer's time rather than actually making progress. If you wish to go this route, I would instead recommend making the engineer's buildings remain stunned for longer after the red tape recorder is removed.

[@plantterror]

I generally agree with the wrangler changes, but I think it should be Marked for Death instead of a damage vulnerability. It will push players to target the engineer with a big cross on top of his head, plus falloff gets ignored when you minicrit the engineer from a distance.

[@HeyGrouch]

I initially wanted to mark for death, but it was buggy

[@ammi5311]

Home wrecker is problematic to exceed engineer's capability . Reduce to 2 hits or 3

[@hwhaht]

I know what you did Grouch. I know about the Harbor Freight incident.

[@HeyGrouch]

I told you never to speak of this again. Don't make me call The Boss.

[@luk4323]

​@@HeyGrouchnuh uh

[@radil3732]

Oops

[@TheKingreiko]

I hope no one is being too mean. In the end theorising balance changes can be about fun and trying different stuff. I like the idea of the enforcer change.

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks! Mean comments don't get to me, don't worry :) It's just the internet doing what the internet does

[@mix3k818]

1:34 SPY HAS A -GUN- KNIFE

[@awesierra704]

Personally I feel like the red tape recorder is something of a nerf, since even if it takes 4 hits to destroy, having to restore a downgrade takes 8 hits and 200 metal.

[@osobatalentu6944]

I am not sure if red tape recorder was buffed. Yea the one that we have right now isn't faster than normal saper in therms of destroying the buildings, but it would remove 2 lv faster than stock saper could destroy the buildings

[@ReverieSamedi]

I feel like this one would pair well with the new enforcer. If you want the building destroyed just unload the chamber onto the building. Like sure if you want to destroy buildings without losing your disguise, stock would be better.

[@HeyGrouch]

Perhaps. Only one way to find out! :)

[@-RandomStranger-]

​@@ReverieSamedi yes, I don't want to reveal myself to the enemy team.

[@BigVince80bce]

@@-RandomStranger- I also wouldn't want to be forced to use enforcer just because I'm running the new red tape.

[@NerdStuffing]

I think it would be way more fun however.

[@taklampan650]

Biggest issue is that these weapons have existed for like 15 years and some people really don't want them changed. I think these changes sound fun but would probably be better suited to new weapons instead

[@HeyGrouch]

True, but I don't have the resources for that rn. Eventually though yes absolutely!

[@blazeultimo]

man says he hates sniper, nerfs him, then puts him back to where he was before. Then also makes spy a sniper again.

[@HeyGrouch]

to be fair though, i've never played sniper

[@soupernpc1196]

@@HeyGrouch

[@niviera7807]

@@HeyGrouch Then go play bruh why even suggest changes to a class if you didn't even try the class

[@tise7709]

The sniper rifle changes were reasonable except hitmans heatmaker bypassing everything. Everything else though? Yeah that was bad, heh

[@Yosif3]

​@@niviera7807 Fishstick when balance changes:

[@TheSalamiMan]

Caution, very long! I discuss his changes then at the bottom I discuss the reason for people not liking his changes and how he can improve while maintaining the silliness. Disguise kit = good change. Period. Enforcer = interesting idea, I could see it working but it might not have enough sustain to justify the lower accuracy, but that depends on the actual numbers. The sentry busting with it sounds great though. YER = Another interesting idea. It could certainly work though the base weapon could also be fixed by just removing one of the debuffs. I like the creativity though. (Take this one with a grain of salt as I am less familiar with this weapon) Ambassador = Oh god please no. There is a reason the ambassador got nerfed. Sniper headshotting is fine because he has no movement and *should* be weak in close quarters. We do not need to give the invisible Frenchman 102 damage at any range when he can just slink away afterwards. The crit falloff doesn’t make it unusable, it just turns it from an upgrade to a sidegrade. Arguably, the falloff should apply to the diamondback too. Red tape recorder = wtf the man? I can understand your reasoning, being that it will certainly piss off battleengies but, if the main problem with the RTR is that it doesn’t kill things fast enough, don’t remove its ability to kill at all. Remember, no sentry is better than a disabled sentry 99% of the time. I will say that the increased health, just on its own, would probably make the RTR usable, so good on you for that, even if the other buff you gave it makes it useless again. (Sidenote, your main problem seems to be that your solution to a weapon being too niche is to make it even more niche. Please stop doing that.) Wrangler = creative idea, but the engineer can just hide behind the wrangled sentry. I would suggest the obvious solution for obvious reasons. Just reduce the shield to 33% instead of 66% and *maybe* remove the firing speed bonus and you’d be fine. This is because the wrangler when used the way it’s intended is actually fine, the problem is pretty specifically the ability to save your sentry by pressing 2 on your keyboard. I really like the sentry jumping idea though. Natasha = sure, I guess. Seems a bit extreme and you could probably just tone down the upside instead, but I don’t have much of an opinion here. You should rethink it though. Cozy camper = the tf2tuber watchalong summed this one up pretty good. You nerfed sniper, then gave him unlocks that invalidate the nerfs, thus making him unfun to play as, while keeping him unfun to play against. Just rethink your whole sniper rework, please. Eureka effect and Machina = I personally think the EE is fine as is, it fills a specific niche while working in most situations just fine. The Machina is heavily dependent on your sniper rework, so we’ll see. Rocket Jumper = fine I guess, but a big part of the rocket jumper is to be stock with no damage so that newbies can practice rocket jumping. The trollger part is secondary. More ammo could work, but firing speed should remain unchanged. Diamond back = I really like this weapon. The perfect aim should be reconsidered for something else, but I think this is reasonably balanced. Critfalloff should be considered, but with the limited circumstances you get your crits, it might not need it. If you do keep the perfect aim, you should definitely consider giving it critfalloff though. Kunai = if people like the change, keep it. The simple fact it no longer invalidates it’s own downside is more than enough to fix the weapon. I actually kind of like it. Response to backlash response: I don’t think anyone is concerned that a weapon doesn’t fit in or that is too different from the original. The usual problem people have is that you tend to change the weapons based on a specific use and buff and nerf it only based on that use with no consideration to how it could interact with any other situation. This results in your rebalances being either unimaginably strong for reasons you don’t consider like giving sniper the highest mobility in the game when mobility is his main weakness or being unimaginably weak because the situation it is specialized for is not actually useful like the RTR not destroying the building, which when fighting a battle engie, is pretty good, but in literally any other situation makes the weapon infinitely worse(which is a problem it already suffers from). As someone from the Tf2tuber watchalong said “you accurately identify the problem, then propose a solution that makes it 10x worse”. In short: people dislike these changes not because they don’t fit in tf2 or anything, but because they create more balance problems while rarely actually fixing anything. This btw is meant to be constructive criticism. So if I came off as mean, please forgive me. I think you have alot of good and more importantly unique ideas to offer(like the new diamondback and enforcer). All they really need is more time in the oven, so get baking. I’m excited to see what you cook up! Also, just remember that reasonable balance is not mutually exclusive with silliness and that you can infact have both. Just remember to how the silliness interacts with other weapons because it can have some drastic side effects.

[@hmmm2359]

Last video: "Stealth is Spy's thing, not Sniper's. Get this man some universal tracer rounds." This video: "Yeah so revert the Jungle Inferno changes to the Ambassador, call it a day. Who even cares about Spy being effective at long range?" Edit: for those that say the old amby is in fact fine and balanced, I recommend fsoas’ video on it.

[@birdyisblue]

He has some very bad choices but the ambassador thing seems like a quality change. I don't think anyone ever actually had any gripes with ambassador as it was. It doesn't instakill, only has perfect accuracy on the first shot, and it can't scope in, so it's still pretty difficult to use at long range

[@OmegaRC59]

21 damage on stock is still enough to kill light classes at long range, spy has always been extremely capable at long range chip damage in general. The only thing I'll agree on is that 5 revolver shots worth of damage at long range in an instant is a little silly, but not the idea of spy being allowed to be capable there. There's a reason Valve gave him a capable midranged gun instead of literally any of their previous ideas for the class

[@giomander40k]

It's not that easy to use the ambassador since you have to consider the slower firing speed the fact you can't chain together headshots and the absurd damage penalty that was even higher than the one of the diamondback before this video

[@-RandomStranger-]

​@@birdyisblue a mosquito stealing half your health, then cloaking away is still annoying and a lot of damage

[@LeafMaltieze]

I'd be fine with it if it also had the transparent tracers from the Classic.

[@samseward1374]

Wait. Engineers whose buildings are being sapped by the new Red Tape recorder can just switch classes for a moment so their buildings will just despawn. They might lose some already built buildings, but it doesn’t lock them out of building a certain building.

[@HeyGrouch]

True. But then they destroy everything, so that's still a Spy W

[@admiral_gravleos8]

@@HeyGrouch No.

[@NNinja1255]

@@admiral_gravleos8 dude, i think a healthy level 3 teleporter being destroyed by a class switch to just destroy a red-tape recorder sapped sentry is problematic for the entire team.

[@mrstudent9125]

Buffing Team Fortress 2 classes always seemed like a strange case to me

[@artifactU]

on one hand if you like how a weapon a weapon works but dont like how it looks

[@pr0ph3t_n3xus8]

I think a neat idea would see the spy able to hold the reload key to mimic secondary class characteristics, such as a heavy revving up, a sniper scoping in, an engie carrying buildings, or all classes reloading. Of course the caveat is that the spy does not suffer the movement penalties of revving or scoping, and reloading happens indefinitely, so anyone paying attention can sniff them out.

[@HeyGrouch]

Absolutely amazing idea!!!!

[@randomguy152-hk8fi]

im pretty sure using the R key whilst playing spy with your revolver out (and without max ammo from what i remember) already can make reloadable weapons on the disguise reload

[@pr0ph3t_n3xus8]

@@randomguy152-hk8fi Yes, but this effect is lackluster in the base game. First, you must be disguised without a full revolver, forcing you to purposely enter hot zones without your max ammo all for the hope that faking a janky reload (As the reload animation will cut once your actual reload is done) will be enough to dissuade observant enemy gamers. With this change, you would be able to do full reloads + secondary class characteristic actions that can dissuade both observant and unobservant gamers if used well, with the caveat of damning your cover if used poorly.

[@queueuof]

ive always liked the idea of an alternate disguise kit that only lets you disguise as scout, medic, sniper but you can mimic their actions (run speed as scout, fake heal teammates, aim down sights on sniper)

[@thewitchishammered]

>casually misses demopills when mentioning the 100hp threshold

[@HeyGrouch]

I've never missed a shot in this game in my entire 51 hours. This is somebody else's gameplay. I knew if I showed my own gameplay, everyone would think the weapons are overpowered because I'm just _that_ good at the game

[@thewitchishammered]

@@HeyGrouch I meant the weapons onscreen during the engineer segment when you mention 96 effective HP

[@strayorion2031]

Mr.President, a third HeyGrouch TF2 balance video has hit youtube

[@damenfinch1779]

If you would be so kind Here is how I would rework the diamond back Mini crits on headshot Gain a stored minicrit for every kill, backstab and building destroyed Turns stored minicrits into full crit upon landing a headshot -50% to clip size Loses stored minicrits on death

[@HeyGrouch]

Interesting! 2 headshot revolvers would definitely give those flick Spies some variety!

[@damenfinch1779]

@HeyGrouch I forgot if you had costume weapons on your server cause I have a cool idea for a spy revolver It would be called Inconue, meaning something in French It would have No damage falloff Almost completely silent No bullet spread Alt fire swaps your next bullet with one that can be shot while disguised but would have a 12-second cooldown and take 3 seconds to load No damage ramp up No random crits You take 15% more damage while out

[@pennydime4562]

Still has the problem off long range crit spies, the anywhere anytime class doesnt need long rangr crits

[@asan4628]

Having 2 minicrit sources doesn't sound good

[@PeacockLover127]

(i said this on the original upload but) the reroll your gun game after very kill sounds EXTREMELY FUN!!!!

[@HeyGrouch]

i'm so happy you think so!! i'm really excited to get back to work on it!!

[@pixelcatmagic]

Great job taking the controversy well. Great changes too!

[@HeyGrouch]

thanks! :)

[@thecluckster3908]

There was controversy?

[@pixelcatmagic]

@@thecluckster3908 Yeah. It pretty much consisted of tf2ubers shitting on the first video and everyone saying "this is why tf2 shouldn't be given to the community".

[@Mangoeplanter]

@@pixelcatmagic average tf2bers:

[@tomasaho5079]

@@pixelcatmagic Because they are too lazy to make new content so they just steal a video and make fun of it

[@awesomesmileyguy]

"In practice, the forester's frogskin really isn't that crazy" >Refuses to elaborate in any way After seeing the end part of the video, I understand what you're trying to do. However, both the title and the content of your 'fixing' video did NOT make it clear you were just experimenting for personal, wacky, all-out fun. It would have been very easy to use a pinned comment or a disclaimer at the beginning of the video, or even a different script to make it clear you're trying to experiment. Instead, your last video genuinely came across like you thought all your changes were for the best for vanilla TF2.

[@deringjosuegarcia1531]

Yeah, most people probably were thinking the "fixing" video was just trolling when we went from Heavy's somewhat understandable changes to Sniper becoming Scout, if it had a disclaimer saying he was experimental for the sake of fun (And not calling the video FIXING, how do you mess that one up?) the backlash wouldn't be NEARLY as bad as it is

[@CheeseHead_B0I]

I’d love to see you change the who-long heater. So that when you get a kill with it, the ring of fire expands twice as big for half a second and deal a little damage, and gain 50 ammo every kill. For the negative Stats I think it’s all right to keep it as it is with the -20% damage penalty and the ammo drain. I think this would make for an interesting up-close chain killing beast

[@HeyGrouch]

Could be super fun!! Might be hard for me to program that with my current experience level, but maybe one day!

[@Aibadenshi]

I prefer the idea of just set people on fire when being hit but the time duration of the afterburn is like the Dragon Fury regardless of much you hit then the damage from the afterburn is fix and doesn't increase and only it duration does. Like the damage could be reduced to 35% or 40% due to the fire tick damage from the after burn do increase your damage. With this heavy can mid to long range pepper people with bullet and fire damage but is somewhat weaker up close due to afterburn doesn't apply more damage the longer it goes.

[@marcellpinter4031]

Bro is in his redemption arc.

[@HeyGrouch]

🔥🔥🔥

[@admiral_gravleos8]

Not at all.

[@JaytheLay1]

Less a redemption arc, more people were being reactionary and are now discarding their part in the situation through their previous blissful ignorance. It's all just people having fun ignoring context at other's expense, as the internet loves to do. Really, he didn't do anything wrong, people just didn't care about history or person, just content for themselves in a circlejerk of apathy.

[@fizz5357]

@@JaytheLay1He called a video “Fixing TF2’s Worst Weapons”, and then made them worse. That’s doing something wrong.

[@SirJad_]

put 8 seconds of bleed on the construction PDA

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Jarate now also inflicts bleed because of the shards of broken glass (BUFFED)

[@borb6158]

I think if a building is sapped by the recorder it should receive a 20% vulnerability to only your teammates. It would help support the idea of a team push weapon.

[@avzer5408]

The red tape one was pretty neat, i had the same idea for a while now basically making the red tape recorder as a "building disabler" than a destroyer, basically giving breathing room for the team and making it to rely more on the team to destroy it

[@avzer5408]

So if you can guess the team is gonna do a pub push its better than the sapper, other than that scene its mid at best

[@joaopedrosoaresmeirellesdu730]

-Makes ass ideas -Tells its a joke -Server for everyone to seee ass ideas

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Funhater located

[@joaopedrosoaresmeirellesdu730]

@@PlatinumAltaria fatherless located (I like fun, but his ideas are still ass)

[@gumhoy5054]

Thank you for continuing to make content bro.

[@HeyGrouch]

Of course! It's my passion :)

[@wintube360]

this video made greatblue bleed

[@Nerdtendo6366]

0/10 not enough bleed damage

[@outofideasexe]

i feel like I watched this already...

[@HeyGrouch]

it's always better the second time

[@StrangeMann283]

Nuh uh no you didn't fr totally

[@timothytardie756]

I don't like the new red tape, it feels pointless because the sapper is still great for team play because it still disables sentries, it also damages them so your team can take them out quicker while also still being good for non-team use. I say bring back the re-wind feature and also keep the new health, making it good for setting back large nests and leaving them vulnerable for team pushes, which would also be a nerf to engineer stacking. This would also keep the ability to insta kill buildings when the engineer places them.

[@Minigolfwindmill]

This is very case by case, but I find the red tape recorder actually helps when playing gun spy. In my experience, the lower damage means that engineers are more likely to engage in a gunfight as opposed to destroying the sapper, meaning you don't have to deal with sentries AND the ebgineer while using your revolver

[@Zilly.]

A SECOND 'FIXING TF2 WEAPONS' VIDEO HAS HIT THE TOWER

[@HeyGrouch]

jfc 💀

[@HareHaven]

This is an awesome project and a lot of the changes look cool in my opinion :) keep up the great work Grouch!

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks Hare!! :)

[@user-ox3nq4yx7y]

Dude you know what ? At that point instead of trying making weapons balanced you can try making them fun, cuz we playing games to have fun, in your "fixing tf2 terrible weapons" was a lot of horrible changes from balance view, but a lot of good changes drom the fun point of view, but ofc you need to add more changes

[@HeyGrouch]

Agree!

[@htlchtlc]

Several changes weren't fun. That was the problem. This is a PvP game, fun comes from shooting AND getting shot. Spam guns aren't fun on the receiving end. Neither are insta kills.

[@gimmymorefood9938]

@@htlchtlc I agree, I feel like the entire reason people dislike sniper it because he can instakill any class from any range.

[@Lawgamer411]

Ok that disguise kit change is actually great

[@ammi5311]

By that i suggest the rapid fire function although fitting enfocer visually, should goes to diamond back instead . Combine with glow effect display on disguise when armed, solves stocking crits meanwhile . Also no, don't make other awkwardly accurate long range gun competing with ambassador

[@idavid8391]

Big ups to the little guys like Elmaxo and Shork for supporting TF2 content creators. We all look up to what we want to be!

[@wariogamer69]

the diamondback now can disguise spy just like the disguise kit, because spy needs a way to disguise

[@makodoesstuff]

Another idea to make the red tape recorder better is a very simple change: it doesn’t tell the engineer the building is sapped, at least not on the hud. Might be overkill but it would be a neat idea

[@HeyGrouch]

Interesting

[@indy23535]

my idea for the red tape recorder was to actually kinda reference the meet the spy video, where its a literal throwable which allows you to sap stuff from a distance ( granted the recharge rate would have to be an abysmal )

[@luthfihar3211]

you're really talented at trolling omg

[@dotfoxtom5942]

Over the years I have learned a few things about red tape recorder. One it's against minis and two it does far more to a croded engi nest than a regular sapper can as it actually degrades buildings quite quick. If I am heavy waiting around the corner with a med waiting for a spy to go on a suicide sap then the red tape is far better for that as the engies fire power is decreased. It also the sapper you take when you want to annoy the hell out of people. Sure red tape isn't good but having a building reverted makes an engineer go crazy!

[@DRDÖCM]

“You know what guys just forget that video”

[@Komatsutoriko]

Can't wait to play with these, thank youuuu

[@juckya9660]

If the engineer wanted to destroy his sentry he could swap class

[@toadboydude5015]

Good work, mate

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks lad!

[@thislink1519]

I knew Grouch was gonna make a series that just keeps getting better with each video/revision.

[@HeyGrouch]

:)

[@hword5notsoofficial803]

The red tape change goes insanely hard Makes it so sap and stab is way better, and FORCES the engineer to fight you, because if they try to remove the sapper, they just instantly die

[@HeyGrouch]

That's the idea!!

[@Regulinecolt009]

It's pretty meh imo, like why would I focus on my sentry if it's not taking damage from the sapper?? Unlike a default sapper which actually forces me to choose between my sentry, my engie and the spy 😭😭

[@maximilianwonschik1304]

​@@Regulinecolt009that's true. This does actually nothing except maybe sometimes annoys mini-sentry engis. But that' s about it. And even if I just fall back wait till someone destroys the sentry and build a new one. But this just sound really fristrating to play against tbh and extremly ineffective most of the times

[@mistikalcanavarlarparlamen3265]

If you are all about funky weapon balance, here is an idea: Changing the southern hosptaility so that it can now build sentries on walls and under the ceiling. I am leaving the downside up to you, but I am really interested in what ninjaneering potential this presents!

[@HeyGrouch]

Oh man, Spider-Man Engies would be so awesome. That'd be really hard to program, but one day that'd be awesome!

[@floridamangaming2453]

Here we go again

[@BossKnight]

5:17 also it can level down important buildings, like a teleporter which can make it a useless lv1 tele

[@LimePopsicle6Pack]

The engineer in the face of the red tape recorder can just temporarily change classes to delete all his buildings

[@gimmymorefood9938]

I’ll re add my comment ig, first off, this video is WAY more tame, and some of the changes, (like the enforcer change) are rlly cool. Plus, even some of the ideas there are a bit more off the rocks (like the red tape recorder) still feel like the would be fun to mess around with. Gj!

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks!! Hope to see you on the server! :)

[@Boopus10]

For the red tape recorder i think on top of your changes making it so that buildings being sapped by it take more damage could be helpful almost like a mechanical mark for death

[@squidfestMods]

You know what, originally I said "Oh god he cooked again" but when you explained your philosophy of goofy shit, I did a 180

[@Amolosgatos-ob6te]

I think the best buff you can give to the YER is changing the +33% drain rate to a - 33% cloak and make the cloak and decloak faster by +33% speed, so its less useful to sneak but more useful to trick people which is the purpose of the YER (the "-33% cloak" means the max cloak is shorter so it lasts less but recharges faster) Also bringing back the "Wearer cannot disguise" if the L'Etranger becomes a problem

[@bossbrozork3022]

Now the enforcer actually enforces something and that is to stay far away from the spy who has it.

[@GrimMcGrimmer]

Grouch, is just a comedy god in disguise

[@Rune404]

Huge problem with the red tape recorder, in maps for gamemodes like payloads is the defense team can put down a sentry and once the team pushes to the next point the sentry could be red taped recorder and essentially make the sentry (and the engineer) completey useless. This would make you effeftively either change class or completey change your playstyle with a huge component.

[@thislink1519]

Grouch is reviving TF2 youtube 1 video at a time

[@kirbykraftgames]

I personally think that the Natasha should give Heavy something like a 10-15% damage vulnerability while firing instead of the constant health decay over time that or make it so that he’s at 80-90% of his default speed while fully revved up

[@lastsoldier4171]

The red-tape recorder change is interesting, but the mechanic doesnt work in the end because engineer can just change to another class and back to engi so that he can just rebuild his nest. i feel like it still would be a very VERY niche weapon still.

[@strudel4131]

“i’m just a silly goofy guy who wants to make fun wacky changes” gives sniper a busted way to get angles you could never see him in and makes the hitmans heatmaker the best sniper rifle comparatively to the rest

[@myriousGE]

After uploading another video and just rolling with it, my respect for you has only grown. Keep on rocking in the free world

[@HeyGrouch]

🙏🙏🙏

[@TheGhostThatWas]

After the last video, I'm actually hyped to see what you do next after all the backlash. It's clear you actually care since you made another video, so I'm excited to see where this goes

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks!! I'm excited too :)

[@Matikz007]

11:42 ngl that concept of a game that rerolls the stats of a gun on kill/reload sounds really cool. Sounds like a fun ARPG tbh.

[@maxwell_edison]

My enforcer solution is a bit different: Keep the disguised requirement, just give it up to 3 shots fired rather than a single shot when disguised, and give those shots a firing speed & damage buff. After those 3 shots, or if you don't fire them in time (You get 3 shots *worth of time*,) you go back to the current low attack speed type. This is kind of a fan the hammer approach like you suggested, but importantly keeps the *identity* of the current enforcer - IMO it makes it a good weapon for when you get seen by an individual player who you need to take out when they see through your disguise, but being worse at longer fights.

[@jackmazzella4920]

what if enforcer lets you shoot enemies while disguised (without undisguising)

[@qwerty222999]

I love the Red Tape recorder idea. I would add onto it and have it only sap one end of the teleporter. In exchange, all classes can destroy it with melee attacks. Give the Red Tape Recorder a unique sapper sound, so people know which sappers they can destroy. Since it takes 4 hits, it gives Spy plenty of room to go for a backstab or an Ambassador headshot.

[@Fatsaver]

Bro that Enforcer has to go man. You literally killed a overhealed Demo with 225 health in 1 second... and people say the old Enforcer completely ruined Spy back when it only had 20% damage bonus..

[@iamnotexistbecauseimmissing]

Reuploading video has always been a strange case to me

[@beaksters]

Grouch we just need to add bleed to everything.

[@Agent51_afterdark]

This is a lot better, I'm gonna stick around to see you fix your changes. I didn't like.. any of them really in the first video. But in this one I at least liked some of the changes, you earned a subscriber from me. Good luck rebalancing the rest!

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks!!

[@Agent51_afterdark]

@@HeyGrouch No problem! Good luck! ;D

[@pyroboss1013]

Red Tape recorder is good for spies on massive player servers where there’s like 20 sentries in the intel room

[@RetroCheats]

Suggestion: make backstabs not count, unless if the spy is behind the enemy for 0.15 seconds.. This means a spy has to do proper back stabbing, instead of face stabs. This is what I want changed the most... before receiving any buffs

[@MJS2389]

Time to watch this a second time

[@HeyGrouch]

Please do lol. It helps the vid grow :)

[@gremlinton9815]

red tape was also good for big engineer nests where the sapper is basically guaranteed to get removed and the spy can stay alive long enough to keep sapping shit due to all of the chaos. with the regular sapper the result is that nothing changes cuz engineers will just keep removing the sapper and the buildings are the same as always. withred tapehowever a lot oftimes the result is a bunch of level 2 or even 1 buildings that will need time to upgrade back to 3, perfect for a push. while you were busy making rebalances for weapons you've never used, I studied the tape in 2fort intel room

[@coprophagichobo2377]

Enforcers atk speed boost should last for a couple seconds after removing disguise, so similar but more like a burst of rapid fire for like 4 seconds.

[@occidere8437]

Red tape sould have a cooldown on application considering how long it takes to break me thinks.

[@thebestgummybear9744]

Bloody respect for keep going after last vid, it takes a ton of maturity to keep going after all that critism AND to admit the faults in said video

[@certifiedfunnyguy]

I was a hater of some of your changes but honestly I liked that you went far with your changes and I love that you are just giving it another swing with playtesting to follow. Super cool stuff

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks!!

[@Magmalime]

I love the idea for the wrangler, but I think the damage vulnerability needs to apply while the shield is active. If the shield only applies to the engineer while the wrangler is out, he can take advantage of the shield's downtime to tank with his sentry in 1v1 situations.

[@HeyGrouch]

True, and I think that could be interesting- Deciding between a shielded sentry and an active sentry

[@davidpettigians]

So now to kill a sentry i HAVE to rely on my team, beautiful

[@michaelnemo4593]

I actually really like how you're attempting to mix things up with TF2, and I'm interested to see both what direction you continue to take this mod and your new game. And to see other people's reaction to both in the TF2 community. Keep it up king 👑

[@HeyGrouch]

Yo that means a lot! Thanks!! :)

[@andreip2436]

I respect the honesty and the fact that game balancing is a lot harder when you also have to juggle multiple other projects so I understand if you aren't a tf2 youtuber that only plays tf2 and has never done anything else. The changes here are actually decently balanced and most importantly fun. Please keep it up, we need more people open to change in this community and I can't wait to try your games in the future.👍

[@HeyGrouch]

Thanks! Excited to see you on the server :)

[@jaderedacted9379]

Such a legend for eating all the bad pr from the last video for breakfast

[@HeyGrouch]

the hate was kinda validating ngl. made me feel like a "real youtuber" lol