Hidden Weaknesses (What You're NOT Hiding) | EDHRECast 324

What is your commander giving away, and how can that affect your Commander games?
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[@ewokFTW]

Annoying gets you targeted way faster than powerful.

[@jandrem]

It’s why I basically can’t play my Ghyrson Starn, Kelermorph deck. The table doesn’t like all the 3 damage zaps going around.

[@ethanwetzel7]

@@ewokFTW 100%. put that rhystic study or smothering tithe in there to annoy constantly I am going to target you.

[@magnusprime962]

@@ethanwetzel7That is precisely the reason I refuse to buy a copy of either of those cards. I don’t want to deal with the heat they bring or have to remember their triggers every time.

[@oxtim394]

I have copies of Rhystic and ST, and I don't play them specifically for this reason

[@MasouShizuka]

I remember getting pinged repeatly for damage every turn from an opponent even when i have the lowest life and mostly empty board apart from my commander Raiyuu. I think its annoying when the weakest player gets singled out for burn damage everyturn whrn everyone else was far more threatening. But i ended up one shotting the guy anyways.

[@Nr4747]

A commander who usually draws a ton of attention and creates very uneven play experiences (heavily favoring combo players over any creature decks) is Judith, Carnage Conoisseur (the version that play 13+ extremely cheap Plague Winds). If you're playing against this deck with any creature-heavy deck, you have to focus on the Judith player without ever over-committing to the board, while also trying to keep Judith off the board and while also keeping an eye on the mana available to the Judith player at all times to see if they are able to recast Judith and a 1 or 2 CMC Plague Wind in the same turn (again). All of that while also trying to keep an eye on the combo and/or control player(s) who are having a great time while you're struggling.

[@alexleblanc6364]

My friend, you've been through some hard times...

[@Nr4747]

@@alexleblanc6364 Haha, thanks for your sympathy, it wasn't very fun to play against with my creature-heavy decks, but there are certainly worse decks to play against out there ;-)

[@TechtonixZi]

As someone who madr this Judith deck, can confirm. Though you find out who is chill and who big babies are. I switched to Obosh and started blastin!

[@Kyronex0]

Victory Chimes is fantastic in my Kruphix deck. Since mana never empties from my mana pool, I get to keep the mana from tapping it on each person's turn, meaning it provides an extra 3 mana every turn cycle

[@bkyang624]

Kaalia was one of the first decks I build from scratch and definitely one of my favorites. She is a huge target though so I’ve moved to running more protection, haste enablers and enough ramp to either cast her a ton or never have to cast her at all. Sometimes the threat of her coming out keeps my other stuff on board long enough to be in a leading position anyway.

[@Wadacup]

Pretty much the same her, although I find recursion / graveyard interaction more viable overall for the whole deck. The trick is to make sure every part of your deck is so threatening that they don't have enough answers for both Kaalia and the ADD's

[@xanderjones6239]

As the years have gone by, I've switched to commanders that don't draw as much attention. I love prosper, but he draws a ton of hate (for good reason) So I put him in the 99 and now run Florian. I win way more games now, and if I want to play a higher powerd game, I just put prosper in the zone. This is a great video about playing the players, not the game. Love this

[@RadishDoctor]

Same but with Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin

[@xanderjones6239]

@@RadishDoctor ob nixilis is more scary to me 😅

[@ImperialVersian]

Dude, I had the exact same experience. I have a Nekusar deck, he gets instant hate. I literally made the single change of making Nicol Bolas, the Ravager the commander, and sending Nekusar to the 99. The deck is exactly the same as it was before (Nicol Bolas was in the 99 already). Completely different experience.

[@xanderjones6239]

😅

[@xanderjones6239]

@@ImperialVersian do you notice yourself winning more games? Do people let you play the game now? 😅

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

HA! This is pretty funny because in a lot of my games, I'll straight up tell people what my deck is aiming to do, what my strategy is, and even a way they could just shut me down. It depends on the experience of the table, newer players, I'll do this more and provide more info.

[@Durtaz]

Hell yeah! I have a couple new players in my group. I started doing this, and then all on its own in turn order, the rest of my experienced play group followed suit. It’s been standard for us ever since whenever a new deck shows up. Reaffirmed my love of my playgroup real quick. More about the squad having fun than getting cheap wins on our less magic inclined friends.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@Durtaz Oh yeah, it's like when helping players with their missed triggers or suggesting a different order of events to get a more optimal result. I like for my opponents to give me a good challenge and I don't want to beat them just because I am more addicted to Commander and I have more knowledge about creatures, what they're capable of, and what their weaknesses are. I'll tell them the best way to defeat me and see if I can find a way around that when they manage to pull that off.

[@adamkarolak3544]

​@@ThisIsACommanderChannel i do that a lot during Prereleases. Ofc I will not tell them how to win against me if they don't see the line, but I will tell them after game so they can do better in next ones. But missed triggers if they are not "may" always, and even "may" ones 90% of time.

[@thriftypsgr]

I built Arna Kennerüde, and this is definitely one of those very scary commanders. I even built the deck to be casual but the effect from the commander pops off once and then it gets killed immediately once you copy 3 or 4 of your equipment and make your creatures 10/10 on turn 5 lol

[@0rcd0c]

Some of the new commanders are so busted that even in a super budget deck they just pop off

[@penguinbomb77]

I had a Kiki-Jiki deck that was mostly focused on copying big dumb Red creatures, and I can confirm that it is a bunch of fun. It drew a lot of heat because of the combo potential, so I've swapped in Jaxis at the helm and it works pretty much the same.

[@jasonhart543]

This warms my heart. Jaxis is my fav deck, & strong as it is, never brings down heat from the table. I think cuz the tokens disappear, you never look as threatening as you are. Just vague potential & a Commander no one knows too well.

[@ClexYoshi]

funnily enough, that's exactly what I discovered with my Zangief deck; even though it slowly chips at people's board states with fight effects, the threat assessment is right there and much like playing a Grappler in a fighting game, people take immediate offense even if, as a Zangief player, I have to do some work to get in!

[@brendans1983]

3:10 Hey Joey, althought there is no Legendary kangaroo YET, the Australian APAC plains has a kangaroo in the artwork. And that kangaroo's age is non-deterministic, meaning there is room to argue that it IS a joey 👍

[@washada]

There is also a wombat card in MH3, and wombat youngs are also called joeys! It’s a creepy, cursed, possibly undead wombat, but it implies the existence of cursed wombat joeys.

[@lightfut]

Hat day! This feels like a topic adjacent to being aware of your commander's reputation because that'll speak to your opponents strategy in dealing with you

[@danaroach29]

We were both having hair not working days.

[@lightfut]

Well, the official hair of the podcast was off, so it's understandable 😜

[@FatstaxMTG]

I run a sheoldred the apocalypse deck and noticed the auto hate to it so now the deck is actually a combo deck that uses sheoldreds a scapegoat effectively.

[@rizzzou]

As an aggro player, I have definitely shy away from the cards that deal incremental damage to the whole table for the reason mentioned around 18:15. As an aggro player you already kind of need to not have all attention on you and the easiest way is to convince the table at times that you are only going after the problem players. That doesnt work when you are Impact Tremors-ing the table down. I leave in cards that deal a lot of damage to the whole table out of nowhere (Chandras ignition) if I want the AOE player damage.

[@the_step_dan323]

another note on sidar is that it makes ALL creaures w/ power 2 or less evasive so that includes your opponets so they will consistently also be able to attack each other more easily while you continue to pump anthems on your own board that make your blocks even better while being unaffected by sidars evasion addition to your opponents boards

[@LegendaryMaeve]

I was playing Sergent John Benton against my buddies Sheoldred, The Apocalypse. He definitely felt pretty bad when I targeted him for the majority of that game. But when I'm giving blcard draw to two players, it's hard to not target the one who punishes card draw!

[@ethanwetzel7]

No mercy to anyone playing Sheoldred ever.

[@lunarlight3131]

this never happened

[@magnusprime962]

@@lunarlight3131Nothing ever happened. None of us were ever born, the universe does not exist.

[@danewirostek1903]

You didnt leave a comment and neither did I​@@lunarlight3131

[@louis-charlesnadeau3447]

33:25 I have an etb no combo kiki-jiki deck. It's super fun and tied as my favorite deck, but it's never a real "no combo". The deck really is more about "listen i tried really hard but i might randomly draw into a 3-4 card combo i didn't intend and now I'm infinite so I've got to make some cuts". Fun times tho!

[@Lootprechaun]

Joey! You mentioned Kiki-Jiki as a commander. I built a combo less Kiki-Jiki deck and my LGS loves it, there's so many cool creatures you can make copies of and you have some cool non combo related ways to win. It's wacky and I love it.

[@off-meta9962]

When we talk about commanders that make themselfes or the Controller a target. Wer also have to Talk about commanders that discourage the Same Thing. Its honestly why i am a big Fan of Henzie"Toolbox"Torre.

[@Bindersquinch]

Wow! I just built a hylda deck and before you even mentioned her I said "man I need victory chimes" lol

[@RadishDoctor]

Video kind of details why my $60 Tadeas, Juniper Ascendant (Dhalsim) deck is my most successful. A 1/3 commander with reach, hexproof unless it's attacking, and anthem of pseudo vigilance, low-power unblockable and keen sense. Like has a LOT going on it, but it isn't technically threatening... until I get out a toughness-matters effect, and flash in Stoneskin: Suddenly my 1/3 hits for 13 commander damage. I typically start wiping my most threatening opponents off the board one at a time by turn 6. Even an inconvenient boardwipe isn't bad because most of the deck isn't mana-expensive to setup. If I can't get into or lose buffs or toughness-matters, with so much draw I can quick draw into approach from the second sun quickly and reliably.

[@snowmanO07]

That sounded really cool till you mentioned Approach. Why have a really cool and unique commander + strategy and just slam approach in there because you have white? Pretty boring way to win and pretty boring for your opponents to lose to a “I win the game” card when it has nothing to do with the strategy. Don’t steal the win from yourself with Approach! It’s only satisfying like 2 times and it’s often regarded as pretty salty…..

[@vasylpark2149]

I want to have a thought experiment. If the Eminence player had to pay one mana anytime the ability went on the stack or the effect is countered, how would you feel?

[@mightyone3737]

I feel like it would be really balanced vs Ur Dragon.

[@vasylpark2149]

@mightyone3737 beginning of each upkeep, you may pay one until end of turn dragon spells you cast cost 1 less to cast. That means you need to cast two dragons to get a net cost reduction.

[@mystikx2205]

45:40 I do this constantly, and it definitely helps in seeing your deck's strengths and weaknesses from another perspective.

[@creditroll176]

ive got victory chimes in my teysa, opulent oligarch deck!! its excellent, basically makes my clues cost half

[@coolmccool1337]

Atraxa isn't that problematic, just promise everyone you don't play poison and abide by that 😂

[@TheKumaXKuma]

My partner just loves Atraxa's look and design and she's terrified to play her because people would just target her even though the deck isn't all that strong. She just wants to have fun with pretty cards

[@magnusprime962]

A possible workaround would be to find some partner commanders that decently support the deck and move Atraxa to the 99 in most games.

[@nsmjohn]

My Mogis deck and i are offended (but we totally have it coming).

[@eveninghat8715]

The thing about focusing on the things that specifically deal with you even with a bigger more general threat on the board is I might expect that other players will help deal with the general threat at the table, but no one else is going to help me remove the thing countering me.

[@devan9197]

i was playing a token deck against baeloth. All my creatures were 1/1s so i had to kill baeloth every time

[@Thoughtmage100]

When I first brought Marvo, Deep Operative to locals everyone always asked me how Clash worked because very few of them played during Lorwyn block. Now, almost everyone at locals knows how Clash works, and they know I'm rigging the Clash. It's a weird feeling when you use a Commander so much it goes from locally obscure to feared. 😅

[@hobez64]

Same, nobody at my shop knew to fear Ziatora or Kroxa and Kunoros until I brought them around. I even got two others to build those decks since they saw mine

[@protojman]

Maybe not a perfect example but Azlask was such a perfect card for me- 3 mana commander that does XP counters that can trigger on dies or tokens. Easily pods into Meren or Ezuri or Minthara. But now every time I play it I have to say "this is an XP counter deck. There might be 2 cards in here that happen to have a Spawn creature type but I am not triggering annihilator. And there's no reason my opponents have to take me at face value

[@paulszki]

Doing a whole lot of stuff but ultimately not all that much is a huge weakness of "the mothman" I noticed. I was radiating every player and really, what does it do besides put a couple cards in my opponents graveyards and MAYBE ping them for a lifepoint but people just freak out about it and I got focused down so hard. Like, mothman can still get powerful, but you REALLY need to run a couple of counterspells and some protection.

[@rizzzou]

My experience with the mothman is that its scariness has nothing to do with milling opponents or pinging them. Its that your FLYING commander quickly becomes a 2 hit or 1 hit KO with no help.

[@paulszki]

@@rizzzoufair enough but that kind of weirdly works against what you're trying to do. Like, there is this mill and a slight +1/+1 counter theme in the deck and then the mothman is like "aight, imma head out. don't need all that" and it's weird that now you just want to play stuff like Slip out the Back, Tamiyo's Safekeeping etc. to just not have him die immediately instead of casually concentrating on the jank mill thing the deck is trying to do.

[@rizzzou]

@@paulszki Agreed, running just a ton of protection and counterspells is probably the spike-ier way to build the deck. I was mostly commenting because in your original post it seemed like you were surprised that people were focusing you down just for "what does it do besides but a couple cards in my opponents graveyards and MAYBE ping them for a lifepoint", when thats really not the real reason. I think its a strong pre-con, but a poorly designed one because of this reason: that in play it doesnt really give a crap about its mill theme. The commander is just a overly beefy and evasive beatstick in a multiplayer commander environment.

[@vioussy]

​@@rizzzouAgreed

[@uhmatcha1167]

​@@rizzzouikr the milling is not the problem, it's just it gets bigger way too fast if left unchecked for like a turn or two

[@hellstocker7707]

When playing my Treebeard, Gracious Host deck I know I'm the archenemy. Having a 24/29 sitting across the table is scary regardless of whatever other players are setting up

[@Magical_Sound_Shower]

As a Mogis player I know I’m gonna be targeted and hate it out, but you know what I’m gonna have fun doing it. Smiling the whole time as life totals go down.

[@mybreakfast7668]

finally someone plaing Tivash in the Command Zone :) I got mine signed at MagicCon AMsterdam

[@rulamagic]

Very good episode! I feel like an alternative title could be: Who to focus first in EDH.

[@stephencampbell4819]

Where's the link to LC?

[@digitalk1llraymon448]

I choose my commanders based on what I can do with the deck, ESPECIALLY if the CMDR is fun or spicy. I like weird mechanics and fun interactions, and I worry less with the perception of it. For example, some of my CMDR decks are: - Ziatora, the Incinerator (Theft, Taxes and Death) = Act of treason > sac your stuff type of gameplay. - Saint Traft and Rem Karolus (The Saint and the Furious) = Vehicle & tokens deck. - The Rani (Wars Forever) = Simple Goad + constellation combo. - Dogmeat, Ever Loyal (Goodest of Bois!) = hurr deuur equipments go bork. - Faldorn, Dread Wolf Herald (Exiled Dreadqueen) = Exile chaos and wolfy bois (Yes I use Possibility Storm for the lols) Im also working on a weird 5 color Adventure deck with Niv Mizzet, Supreme (History Lessons) that is gonna do weird and wonky stuff with Adventure cards. Cause his effect works just like Lier's does.

[@chickencereal9387]

I just played my Araumi deck I made and I got a lot of hate in my group. One guy kept exiling my graveyard which is good, but didnt target anyone else. If anyone has some advice it would be appreciated I am somewhat new to commander and deck building

[@KCEBGaming]

Hey, I play Eriette, the Beguiler and I know exactly what kind of play experience I’m creating when I sit down with my beautiful witch. *evil witch cackle*

[@JaywoodJablowme]

MAKE THE BABY JOEY KANGAROO BABY TOKENS NOW WE MUST HAVE THEM

[@howlovely9631]

I can tell you why i personally dont play Victory Chimes and i have nymris deck and used to play alela. While it sounds good in theory, what are you really lacking when playing on opponents turns are colored pips. I would personally prefer more to pay one more mana and play unwinding clock so i can untap colored mana. It also has synergy with more stuff and funny enough that it doesnt even show up on nymris edhrec.

[@raonair]

You guys missed the link in the description

[@lokumo13]

I've stopped running Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines in my heavy etb decks. Even though she supercharges the said decks, she also is the silver bullet for those decks, especially considering the amount of cloning and theft cards going around these days...

[@filthystaxplayer7197]

My most powerful deck is a Jetmir aggro deck, and 100% most of the people I play with regularly know what turn I intend to try and win by - that deck is built with that in mind and it's a dynamic I enjoy, but you do need to be aware of that before you build commanders that say "I win you lose"

[@KingGimpo333]

I have some decks with rather obvious weaknesses, such as a Horobi list that can die to a light breeze. But that's just Horobi's effect. And so I prepare for it. But I have had an Ashling the Pilgrim list for years and over time I have noticed myself putting less and less and less creatures into the deck because the hidden weakness of that deck is it goes kaboom, and that kaboom does not discriminate. So the very few creatures that get to stay nowadays are the ones that *want* to get blown to bits.

[@Cabbrickk]

I was playing Stella Lee yesterday and notably the list i run does not include infinite combos like Cerulean wisps and instead tries to be a value engine and storms off more traditionally later in the game. I forgot to say this pregame and found myself focused out of fear of cerulean wisps. I eventually realized this and said i don't run cerulean wisps etc and the pressure eased immediately and that won me the game because I drew mana geyser and made a bunch of dragons 😂

[@RobThePrincess]

I definitely have a tendency to build decks that "dont aim". They just hit everyone at once, and hard. Ive found that i win better, when i am able to skip the politics and the minutia of threat assessment. However... sometimes politics are necessary. Sometime we all need to address the specific problem. And its super awkward when i have to just continue to burn out everyone while attempting to strike a deal. Lol

[@CalamitousCactus]

Played a full art jedit Ojanen and got hard targeted by the other three for thinking my commander was like the full art Omnath

[@TheRedKnightOfPain]

As someone who plays Jodah, Archmage Eternal as the head of my 5 color Angel deck, i tell people 4 things, if you ignore me for too long youre going to be dealing with the strongest angels in the game, if you see me actually play Jodah it means i am out of useful moves to make at the moment cause he'sthere for personal nostalgiafrom the 1st magic novel i read, the deck has a magical Christmas land that can puke all 38 of the angels on the board leaving the table 1 turn cycle to use one of like 8 cards in the game to deal with me, and if the game goes on too long i have maze's end to finish it 😅

[@danikaragnhild5198]

Anytime I play against a deck that can have infinite or near infinite turns I will just do my best to kill because you just don't know when they'll be the only person playing for the rest of the game

[@frandynamo2143]

I made a Thalia and the Gitrog Monster abzan landfall deck. It did also have Drana and Linvala in the 99 which could be seen as annoying / staxy but asides from that it was all landfall stuff. I made the deck cause I loved the flavour and I didn’t have a deck like this. Sadly it was short lived as when I took it out to play it was hated lol I asked a pod if it was ok to play and they said yes. And I told them it wasn’t a stax deck. So much complaining about having stuff enter tapped when it really didn’t change the gameplay at hand and so much aggro was drawn to me. It made the gameplay super unfun and one player was extremely spiky towards me. Not my idea of a good time at all.

[@jdlazin]

"Who cares about a deck named off themselves? No wait- I totally built Jon." It wasn't even like that, I just think he's neat

[@Borokok210]

Paused the video to say: everyone hates infect and some of my peeps wanna make it 20 damage, but it becomes a game of archenemy real quick. Gotta keep an eye out for myself and use corrupted conscience and tainted strike as player removal. Lol I use Kenrith to use all colors, but don't cast him. 😅

[@stephenbradford8524]

I'm not sure how eminence decks have a "cost" in deckbuilding. Isn't the "cost" to play a bunch of the same type of creature (along with all their accompanying synergies)?

[@ajaydassani9931]

I would like to know Dana choices for petty cards

[@grillburgerdaq5121]

My Kibo decks destroys artifacts and I get hated out of games constantly because of it. It’s gotten to a point where I play it less.

[@mathimus55]

First!

[@xanderjones6239]

You weren't even here! Get outa here, Matt! We missed you btw

[@Strumtreppen]

I wonder if eminence would be less frustrating if it came with a downside as well. If it played more like having a unique rule for your board rather than just a buff. Like gain 3 life on your end step but your maximum life is 30, or spells you cast with cmc 3 or less cost 1 more to cast but spells you cast with cmc 5 or more cost 1 less to cast. Or wilder things like: once on your turn you may play any single sided card face down as a basic forest, at your end step if you control more than three lands sacrifice a land.

[@DragonmasterSK]

I play Braids, conjurer adept ...

[@alexcurtis6180]

My Neheb the Eternal deck draws a lot of attention because it's group slug/punisher that pivots into stompy in the late game. When I play that deck, I resign myself to sometimes dying to my own Descent into Avernus

[@Ironpecker]

I'm shocked that group slug is so disliked lmao, like I play the new Ob Nixilis as a group slug dude and while he's scary everyone always has a fun time because the games are fast and everyone has to consider the trade off with life and casting spells and such! I'll be more mindful of that in the future, but personally group slug is my favourite play style, just get everyone in a brawl and see who comes out on top

[@Lazydino59]

I think it is disliked for the same reason chaos and group hug (and even discard) are, it kind of warps the game to not be coherent with how you typically expect to play your deck. We build our deck to play it how we want, but that breaks with certain archetypes

[@Ironpecker]

​@@Lazydino59 any deck in some degree does warp how you play the game, against a gishath player You've got to have an answer for when they have the mana to cast it, against wilhelt you have to be mindful of the opponing infiniting you, against a burn player you've to preserve your life total maybe by using more blockers and avoiding sylvan libraring for three. Same thing with group slug, you've to either pace your spells, bet that you're gonna kill me before I burn you off or use the burn to your advantage to pressure a player that is particularly weak to something like kederet parasyte. Also maybe I'm a bit biased because I've been a long time yugioh player and there every game you've to be on your toes from the second the game start, be ready to deal with whatever your opponent is throwing at you, compared to commander where (usually) players have some turns to set up and can choose stuff like blockers it can feel a bit too much pressure. I've never had any issues with me playing group slug but in the future I'll be mindful to make sure that everyone is okay with the type of gameplay the deck prompts

[@patonnight]

Eminence also means 1 less card in your opening hand, since you usually don't cast those Commanders. That's a card disadvantage that you're setting yourself right from the start.

[@healusion8912]

It's more like a leyline in your opening hand, that's untargetable and indestructible and have a powerful effect. Also you can play the card but you don't need to

[@Matazuma]

starts at 3:27

[@zelbekon]

I love building decks that work without the commander and then just put some random dude at the helm to throw people off. You think you're up some nasty combo stuff with Maralen the Mornsong? Wrong, it's a discard deck and I am never casting her because why would I want you to tutor for your best cards? You think you're up against some treasure shenaningans because there's Prosper the Tome-Bound in the command zone? Wrong, it's just a generic Rakdos aggro/burn deck and Prosper is only there to draw cards and provide some additional mana.

[@giancarlozambello5291]

I’m not reading all that. You’re dead

[@riverswater5688]

They start getting to the point at about 5:00 in.

[@leslievods3133]

why so many dislikes? edit:im assuming its Dana's hat

[@TravvyBear262]

This is too close to Richard's "playing good cards is bad" argument. Learn threat assessment please