How Many is TOO Many? Backup Plans vs Redundancy | EDHRECast 322

[@ryrysamurai92]

Six maybe being a Seven is far and away my favorite Joey magic joke so far

[@matustrophic]

I'm a dad joke hater, but that one got me and I'm going to tell it later.

[@brandoncreek5709]

But would six be afraid of seven?

[@Aerix]

Glad you enjoyed the "Challenge the Stats" submission I sent in for Mr. House. The deck might seem like a gamble, but the odds were rigged from the start. Never forget, the house always wins!

[@fastestdraw]

I think a lot of 'how much is too much' is down to how disruptive your playgroup is - the diversity in removal can make protection spells difficult encouraging more repeat effects to make sure your deck runs. Some effects stack with themselves. Goading everything isn't super important. Getting more hasty creatures almost always helps other hasty creatures. Affinity for artifacts likes affinity for artifacts. It comes down to tempo - If you are doing something powerful, and you do it multiple turns in a row in a way that puts you ahead, its great. Commander on 4, repeat on 5, commander on 6, repeat on 7 is great. I love it with raw damage - I rarely feel bad about having another Hurricane, fireball or earthquake in Atarka or Hidetsugu. If you need the tempo before you can stick the commander, protection all the way.

[@georgelantzy7975]

I have this problem, but not connected to my Commander. It's funny you guys brought up Tamiyo's Safekeeping and Heroic Intervention. Last year I started running a lot of "protection." My decks are very Commander-centric. It's hard to find that balance.

[@AntonioHachi]

Me: *nods along to all the good points the guys are making* Also me: "How do I fit a 32nd card with investigate into this deck?"

[@mcfluffikinz7365]

For me, this is why MDFC are so helpful. If I want to have X number of removal spells, I can offload some of those cards onto my mana base and then when I don't need them they serve a different(helpful) purpose

[@Controlqueen31]

That's why a lot of the new monocolored ones and some of the two color can be put in ANY deck without much trouble. They are lands in early game, and some of them come untapped, and in the late game they are useful spells.

[@Balendilin42]

put in some bounce lands and you can use the spell later on

[@minine6508]

46:06 ive found a pretty good solution to the board wipe / ward conundruum and thats to run more Soul Shatter or Pick Your Poison style of cards. Spend maybe an extra mana or two to 3 for 1 feels REAL nice

[@highlongkay4444]

How many opps you really got? I mean it’s too many options.

[@brandoncreek5709]

So many opps

[@nathanpavolko5861]

This conversation resonates so much, and is something I more recently have found for myself on how to balance the payoffs in my decks. I often double down too much and saturate my decks when I really need more draw or removal to smooth it out

[@will2jenk]

You’re right, this is a redundant amount of basics in my deck

[@jenniferpeet2748]

I know it's you Dana

[@Wojtek36762]

Interesting thoughts! A few of my decks that come to mind where this has come up: Hakbal is very dependent on keeping the commander and other Merfolk on the board for a few turns at a time before it can win. At first, I felt like countermagic was less effective in that deck with how often I’ll show it off the top, I focused on some board protection. After some games where I still couldn’t keep Hakbal down, I added an Earthshaker Giant and a couple other alternate finishers for that situation. I’d pulled Simic Ascendancy because it needs Hakbal down and felt beside the point of the deck. But more recently, the Constant Mists/Glacial Chasm issue you mention at the end has been a bigger problem than board wipes. I’ve added some countermagic (and when I’m using it for protection, telegraphing it isn’t the worst) and returned the ascendancy. I’m also considering Throne of the God-Pharaoh, which I usually use in token decks without other life drain to get past fog effects, the fact that it handles glacial chasm and solitary confinement effects is a big help, too. My most recent changes to Prosper have been adding more treasure producers. The deck can impulse draw fine without Prosper down and has plenty of payoffs, but when I have to spend a full turn in the late game recasting him, let alone when I can’t, I needed to make sure I was rolling into other treasures to run my engine and finish out a stalled game. Because I’ve already got so much gas, the treasures also complement what Prosper is doing, and I can’t really have too many unless I run out of impulse draw. My Caesar deck tossed most of the Fallout cards for 2 and 3 mana repeated token producers to make sure I can always get the engine started for Caesar. Just by having so many alternate pieces and the commander drawing cards while the engine runs, the deck has gotten pretty resilient. Caesar being able to 2/3 generate tokens, draw a card or burn face is great because he can keep my board and hand full (as long as I can protect the tiny attacking tokens, which turned out to be a bottleneck of the deck) and then shift to kill shots that don’t require combat damage. It still might want another life drain payoff or two, I feel like I’m gonna see more and more glacial chasms now that Urza’s Cave exists and green and white both recur lands so easily. I’ve stopped running Ravenous Baloths in my landfall decks, I’d rather pay less mana for smaller tokens that I’m gonna have to pump anyway, or pay a bunch of mana and get a bunch of tokens now off one card. My Maja deck runs 3 other “landfall make a token” cards, three token doublers/increasers, three things that make one token a turn while doing other stuff, five spells that make a bunch of tokens at once, and three more that make multiple incidental tokens once on top of their real purpose. The Baloths are just too clunky, I probably have to cast them for six, untap and then have a ramp spell still in my hand to cast if I want the value. I’m sure in like, Aesi, you do just have that and it’s good, but I’ve been trying to get Maja to durdle less and move toward the endgame. OTOH if you constantly stop combat damage against that deck, I can only really win with my Halo Fountain. Another deck that maybe wants a Throne, but I’ve been reluctant because it doesn’t necessarily swing out every turn.

[@mightyone3737]

I gave up on Rampaging Baloths in my Simic Landfall deck, mostly because it was too much mana for a dork that didn't scale especially well, Scuties are a million times better for half the mana, and Field of the Dead was also much better, especially since that deck is designed to go infinite, not just 'draw 7 cards', so infinite Scutes is just as good as infinite Baloths, and one is much easier to work with. The deck doesn't bother with things that make my infinites better, what's the point? A high point was realizing that if I give everyone else infinite tokens with Forbidden Orchard I can then The Great Aurora to win on the spot, that deck has too many ways to win and it definitely results in sub-optimal plays because it's so hard to see the lines! If you're worried about Chasm and you have access to Red, maybe Dwarven Miner/Dwarven Blastminer? They're jank, but you can deal with a Chasm (and it coming back won't matter either, they can blow it up again and again). In Blue you can sometimes drain people to death with Psychosis Crawler, Blue can often draw a lot of cards once it's set up, this can also get around Chasm if you're worried.

[@thechikage1091]

Week two of asking to please lower the volume of the music intro because it is so unbalanced and loud compared to the actual recordings of your voices I am going to get hearing damage moreso than I already have. Either way, fantastic and insightful episode once again. This topic is one that I sometimes struggle with when deckbuilding. Finding the sweet spot between things that do the thing, and things that benefit from doing the thing.

[@ntsmith2000]

In my favorite EDH deck with Jodah, Archmage Eternal, the backup plans to my build are Fist of Suns and tons of mana ramp. There are cards that allow me to cheat out expensive CMC cards but that's more of the payoff. Trying to short cut with a cost of WUBRG is more of the goal.

[@styfen]

I use the Holy Hand Grenade method of working out numbers myself

[@pauldyson8098]

Salubrious Snail (shameless plug--the dude's a genius) has a Radha, Heir to Keld deck that runs NO spells below 4 MV and almost all of the 4 MV spells are Explosive Veggies variants. So, the deck always drops Rad on T2 and virtually always jumps to six mana on T3. No Rampant Growh; no Cultivate; no Sol Ring, and the deck's better for it. The deck is a great example of how taking the time to really figure out how your commander functions, as a card that you almost always have access to as part of your overall strategy, is time well invested. Dana, wisely, doesn't run Sigarda's Aid in Ardenn//Esior because Ardenn has a similar effect (as Dana would say) baked in; Puresteel, valuable for its card draw, also adds redundant free equips as a bonus. I'm with Mat'Selesnya on avoiding additional anthems in Kylar. Great show as always, folks!

[@Stefke78]

Totally missed this one! And this was cast where I was shouted out 🥳... Thanks EDHREC cast for keeping this content going. For me listening to your show indicates the weekend has started.

[@chumbogrosso5133]

I was having an existential crisis regarding this topic last weekend. Not anymore. Ty guys for the great content

[@CSDragon]

you guys should avoid the sponsorships from better help, they are not great. they've been selling people's data which you're really not supposed to do as a doctor

[@bruvaroni]

They're probably under contract to give so many sponsor shout outs at this point

[@Onattamato]

That was resolved in 2021, long story short they were selling the same data that every company sells, it's just that since they're healthcare they shouldn't have included some of that. If you need to know more Cinema Therapy just put out a huge statement on why they still take sponsorships from BetterHelp.

[@kingmob___5224]

Omg who gives a shit. You don't dictate company ad time.

[@TheSmartCinema]

And it's a company that preys on the weak and vulnerable. Profiting off people's misfortune and misery by providing mediocre "professionals" is so weird to me. Here in Canada we have free access to this kind of stuff. SELLING therapy as a PRODUCT is weird as fuck, totally an American moment.

[@My_Grandma]

Are these bots? I swear ive seen these identical comments on other channels

[@Excaria]

A lot of great points, though the one example I'm not so sure about, and I could be wrong, was about Obecka and using things like Paradox Haze. The alternative to a Haze would be something that buffs or supports Obecka being able to hit harder or more reliably, but relying so heavily on your commander, a creature that can fairly easily be removed, could be dangerous to rely on. So for my list that already has a fair bit of protection and support to get Obecka to hit someone, Paradox haze and a few other equivalents are more consistent effects to benefit the rest of the deck over time.

[@marcoottina654]

35:30 to be honest, Paradox Haze covers Obeka a bit when attacking is rendered impossible. Niche, but non zero probability

[@TechtonixZi]

I've noticed I am enjoying Landcycling on creatures a ton. I'm putting a lot more basics in decks.

[@CmdrUD87]

I find the topic is really dependent on what kind of backup plans/ redundancy we're talking about: counters can double in the place of protection spells for instance. But then again, I have a Selesnya- token- deck that is running 10 anthems and another 5 overruns, and that turned out to be the density it needed to go over the top

[@michaelsaldana4103]

I apply this thinking with doubling effects (double tokens, double counters etc...) It at least opens up spots to try and play all the new cards that is being made.

[@steveme6664]

A consideration is also the type of redundancy, there are some effects that don’t stack or add onto each other vs complimentary redundancy. And recognizing that is important/helpful.

[@Rococorico]

That's exactly my style, I run the fewest possible redundancies to my Commander's presence and try to have as much support that is not dead without the Commander in play. This goes to Sammut, Voice of Dissent not running any other Haste granting cards, to Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain running low on other card draw effects, slots taken by ways to protect them. (kinda disagree on challenging Frontline Medic in Burakos | Folk Hero, speciallly because it's extremely cheap and the alternatives presented are somewhat expensive. Also because I love every White card able to counter a spell. Everyone should run more of those in non--Blue decks.)

[@mightyone3737]

I almost always 'do the opposite' when I build decks, if I run a Commander that provides a lot of card advantage then I don't run as much in the 99, sometimes dramatically less... this means the decks are less consistent though, because draw is what helps offset mediocre keeps, even in decks 'that only need to hit their land drops to go off'. Such decks are very good 'when they are working', but are often complete messes when they don't have their Commander. I actually built a bunch of decks that run Commanders that do incredibly little, and those decks often work quite well *specifically* because I'm not running a bunch of cards that require my Commander, the decks just stick to doing what their colours like. It doesn't help that the better I build a deck the worse it draws, but that's just life when your deck that's about half land and ramp sources can't seem to draw into lands, or when your removal heavy deck can't draw any removal.

[@leewmurdock]

Great show! 🎉

[@cread13]

For the omnath deck a good card that works like baloth but is more on theme is zendikars roil. It makes 2/2 elementals which are not as big as what the commander makes or baloth but synergies more with omnath.

[@vasylpark2149]

When talking about ward I figured out exactly where the number is that is too much of anything. the magic number is 3. I figured this out when I was playing Yuriko. I wanted to build a deck that was oops all ninjas, when I hit everyone for 2 no one cared when I hit them for 3 that was a set too far, 4 was immediately everyone turned their eyes to me. When people draw 3 or more cards or the potential to draw 3 or more they side eye that person.

[@Parodox306]

Congrats to Joey for getting a CTS segue in!

[@DarthChocolate15]

Agree on card draw, disagree on removal. I've definitely played games where I'm sitting with removal or multiple board wipes clogging my hand, and nothing to do to advance my own gameplan.

[@markbrierley6367]

I'll agree that Orzhov is the easiest color combination to get clerics. But I also say this: none of those alternative clerics mentioned do what Frontline Medic does. It is repeatable indestructibility to your whole board across multiple turns. That factors in a few ways. On previous podcasts (specifically the reports of the yearly statistics projects) the gentlemen have mentioned that their games tend to last around 9 turns and their win rates are 33% and 41% so they're very often dictating the pace of those games. In metas where that is accurate you probably don't get enough value from Frontline Medic. But I would posit that that is on the fast side. In metas in which Frontline Medic is going to swing 5 to 12 times that's a huge advantage over those one-shot indestructible clerics. Also using the Medic's ability offensively is easier. If one were to swing out with the Medic and friends then pop a board wipe after combat you get to best choose when to do that with his ability over a one-shot. You certainly can pop your Selfless Spirit to protect yourself in the same way, but that method leaves your semi go wide strategy open to common counterplay in ways the Medic does not, such as counterspells or Heroic Intervention style effects. Also you just lost your cleric when you pop it to protect your board. Not to mention having the option to cast the second board wipe post combat on a later turn. And not for nothing, but Crackle with Power, Villainous Wealth, Torment of Hailfire, Meathook Massacre, Walking Ballista, Exsanguinate, and a bunch of green tutors with X in them are popular cards and taxing those Xs by 3, especially Crackle with Power, can be the difference between losing on the spot or being able to tough it out. All that said, it never hurts to look at cards critically and ask yourself if they're doing what you want.

[@azazelmorningstar5631]

Essentially the medic is mostly meant to consistently enable attacks that would otherwise be impossible or unfavorable, especially in a clogged board, the options they suggested are instead meant to respond at instant speed to your opponents removal, the medic fulfills a different function not covered by the options they suggested

[@downundergroundman]

I agree. To get maximum value out of Burakos, you need her to be attacking and protected, both of which Frontline Medic achieves while also protecting your other attackers. While those are some great clerics Joey mentions, I don't think they achieve as much for the overall strategy. There are so many other clerics in the precon I'd cut before it.

[@rulamagic]

It's a complex topic. Some of us like to build decks having the commander be a synergy piece with the deck instead of building around the commander. In that case, protecting the commander is not a priority.

[@TheForeverRanger]

My main deck is Ojer Axonil and I have to be really careful about what other modifiers I put in the deck due to how replacement effects work in MTG. Any more than one or two can become redundant and actually hurt the deck. So my solution? I have two of the Chandra and an Immodane. That is it.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

Great topic as always

[@sunbro7853]

I have monolithic Abdel/Master Chef deck that lives and dies by the commander. Abdel is the payoff for the deck and it’s back up plans are Cryptolyth Rite, Song of Freyalise, Eternal/Timeless Witness, Jaheira and Rishkar for when he does die. It’s Norma for me to have like three lands and 15-30 mana dorks with one of these enchantments on board to bring Abdel back through commander tax.

[@enoesiw]

I know Lae'zel's Acrobatics is a nonbo with Mr House, but aside from some of the alternate win cons and a few synergy pieces, the entire deck is dice rolling. I don't run swords or path because they don't roll die or care about rolling die. I don't run Teferi's Protection because it doesn't roll dice. I could optimize the shit out of this deck, but i don't think it would be a better deck because of it. Sometimes, you need to embrace the jank.

[@TingusPingus269]

As a person who also owns burakos /folk hero frontline medic saves me 10 mana from recasting burakos and saves me from sacrificing my selfless spirit to gain 2-4 treasures.

[@fcl.]

No more Better Help please!

[@khathecleric]

I dispute Frontline Medic being overplayed. I use it to attack all 3 players and pressure life totals.

[@MFewwy]

I used better help once and the therapist I was recommended was sleeping on the calls. He was barely awoke 😅😅😅 so it's not great

[@thork_tv]

When you Cast a safekeeping you blank a removel spell, When i Cast a safekeeping i protect my commander from him selfe We are Not the Same (PS my commander is Hans Eriksson)

[@GrizzneyGames]

Idk. I have 1-3 back-up plans in my decks that could replace or compliment my commander.

[@JohnGarner-j5e]

im still gonna play as many possible extra land drops for a land fall deck

[@johnrogers9262]

I implore you guys to stop advertising for Better Help. I love your content but they are professional grifters and people who genuinely need help will almost never find it there.

[@hellNo116]

In my abdel Adrian the answer is 13 times.

[@darkstarfuture]

Why are people still getting sponsored by better help in 2024? Everyone knows they're a scam lmao

[@failfurby]

I don't play Manabarbs in my Ghyrson Starn deck. Intentionally. That deck is already VERY GOOD, it felt like a very extreme "win bigger" card that created a lot of needless salt. Never mind the fact that there are TONS of ping cards that can easily slot in, it also buys a lot of social credit in most pods when they hear that I made this choice.

[@lora5030]

Y'all, I really enjoy the podcast but when are you going to stop promoting BetterHelp? Like, how many times should they be exposed for terrible practices that actively harm people for you to stop accepting their promo?

[@scaredycat3146]

An aspect I kinda missed in this discussion is that all the redundancy also makes decks more linear and less exciting to play against. They become one trick ponies without flavor. Same way I feel about excessive card draw. Draw, draw, draw, draw, win. Boring. Please never ever complain about simic value pile commanders again when you do the same in a slightly different costume.

[@Crypt4l]

2 Backup plans is tooo much

[@drew-id]

Ramp and card draw

[@ElmoTheRed]

I finally disagree with a challenge the stats ... I also have a Burakos party deck. I have put a restriction on my deck that I can only play clerics, rogues, wizards and warriors (no shapeshifters or changelings). I have 9 of each class. Frontline Cleric is fighting for that last spot with multiple creatures. The other thing that is misrepresented is both runes and other creatures cannot protect the first turn out (yes they are only 1 mana so the come down earlier). The other issue I have is why I do appreciate the selfless creatures, they are one time effects unless you have ways of recuring them. Frontline will trigger until they find a way of removing it which is one less removal coming for your commander. On a different note I find it funny I am the complete opposite as Joey on my synchronization of deck list. My online deck list is my ideal list and my paper deck is what I have been able to put together as of now. It seems that we are complete opposites.

[@naonna1]

You may want to look into the allegations sent towards better help. otherwise, i do get how important sponsorships are.

[@dougclendening5896]

Protection cards are rough because they are always almost made pointless by having another counterspell. Obviously, non blue doesn't have many of those options. They really could throw out more tibalt trickery type cards to all colors, or make the protection cantrip much more useful so that it isn't always dead. Galadriel's dismissal is starting to get close. One mana to protect your commander or remove a problem creature for a turn, or doing it for a players entire set of creatures is nice flexibility. To make it really useful, it needed the "players can't win the game" on it too, though.

[@Matazuma]

starts at 4:18

[@moocowp4970]

They were starting to convince me, and then he said he'd rather Ancient Greenwarden (a 6 mana card) over Rampaging Baloths (a 4 mana card) and i realised he had no idea haha. If you have Rampaging Baloths and Omnath thats almost the same as having Omnath and Greenwarden, except that it cost you 2 mana more and if they kill Omnath you now get 0 landfall triggers if you have Greenwarden on field, but will still get the trigger from Baloths if you had Baloths on field. Sure, Omnath makes elementals which gives you 3 damage, but that hardly seems worth 2 mana. Also, if your excuse is "well im ramping to get to Omnath" surely you would rather play the Baloths first and then ramp so you can get two landfall triggers for Baloths first rather than 0 for Omnath/Greenwarden? I feel like there is logic for what youre saying, it just doesnt stack up very well compared to the alternative.

[@ARK-ep4bb]

Rampaging Baloths is also 6 mana. So it’s entirely what you value more. He prefers bigger pay off with higher risk. I would rather have the Baloths but the choice is definitely more personal preference.

[@dougclendening5896]

Sneak attack is not an auto include into kaalia unless she has a recursion sub theme. It cost you much mana and kills your beaters.

[@nilskaspersson]

If my Commander has the payoff built-in, my 99 will focus on setup. If my Commander has the setup built-in, my 99 will focus on payoff.

[@drew-id]

What concise way to explain it. I have a Kitt Kanto deck... And the commander is just meant to be turn 3-4 board presence... That's it... Just a light sprinkling of goad and bodies.... Meaning my 99 needs to close out the game as well as synergize....

[@RazorDevil1]

im gonna challenge you guys and say that too much redundancy doesnt exist in a lot of themes. i have a polymorph deck with illuna apex of wishes as the commander, and i need every single polymorph card in the deck regardless of illuna being a polymorph in the command zone. also you cant go wrong with having too many boss monsters to poly out. etb blink decks also use every blink/double etb effect possible, especially if your commander has a good etb. Etali primal conq and gyruda decks will run every single clone and will be just fine sometimes redundancy is good.

[@Jerhevon]

Joey! What on earth did the Frontline Medic ever do to hurt you? You'd think it was a Rest in Peace on a body the way you're saying people should stop running it. He's a cool older cleric who's been looking for a home for a while. Pretty sweet that he sizes up well, enables attacks, chicanery like your own post-board wraths, and can stymie an errant Torment of Hailfire.

[@Jerhevon]

As to redundancy, I still have commanders that are themselves the plan B, or even plan C of the deck. Like Vorosh sitting in my command zone to be my ready defense against opposing flyers.

[@domotoroOfficial]

super weird that youtube put most of the comments about betterhelp at the VERY BOTTOM for me… anyways guys, hope you can get outta that contract ASAP

[@travis_approved]

TBH they are the recommended comments in my feed before I click on the comment section so I think they’re getting to someone at least

[@KingSquee]

I use lae'zels acrobatics in Mr house just because roll dice is funny

[@Mulletdog1]

1:01 Matt the dad joke master

[@sharkrash]

19:30 Dude plays one of the most tryhard salty decks and complains. Just avoid broken commanders and you won't face hell queue. It's really fun down here, with low power stuff.

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

I understand where you're coming from, but you might want to check out Matt's deck list in the description. He's not really known for playing the most optimal cards. He's definitely coming at it from a more casual angle.

[@sharkrash]

@@Blacklodge_Willy ok, let's say its true. using a broken commander fucks up his matchmaking, and that would make his matches miserable vs true tryhards. would be much wiser to use another one.

[@joshua_lee732]

Ban reservist cards

[@cwill1090]

Matt, you play Rusko? you're the problem...

[@bradluck1108]

better help bad