High Court hearing: draft of ultra-Orthodox Israelis into the IDF

[@live_free_or_perish]

It's about time this issue is addressed.

[@subtronik23]

They don't neded to be Kravi, but they should 100% do 2 x years national service, such as hospital work, community work, and community support work. Everyone must be part of national service.

[@loricalass4068]

Why can’t they fight like all the other soldiers? What’s so special about them that other people have to put their lives at risks for their sakes? Nothing in the Bible supports their refusal to fight. On the contrary.

[@subtronik23]

@@loricalass4068 Kashrut, mixing with women, prayers, and keeping shabbat are just some of the obstacles facing Haredim. On the other hand, kippot srugot, (woven kippa) i.e. the religious zionists have higher levels of combat recruitment proprtional to all other segments of Israeli society, and maintain an observant religious life without issue, while conducting their IDF service. The debate has shifted somewhat and the Haredi population now agrees that more should do military service, but creating the IDF structures to allow Heredi integration will certainly take a long time. There are however some Haredi combat military units already in operation, although I don't know if that is true for standard service or only for milluim.

[@DeltaProphetdbd]

King David was Orthodox...He was a warrior.....

[@libafried5840]

Did the Israelite army look like the IDF?! With women, guys, mechalelie Shabbos, etc?!

[@TheCaniblcat]

I don't understand why Haredim are granted money by the government to study in the first place. It's not like I, as a secular Jewish Israeli, would be granted money by the government to study the Talmud were I so inclined. I'd be fine with religious study being treated the same as university study, but otherwise granted no special consideration. You can do religious study for four years first, THEN serve, or serve and then go do religious study. Also, unless these "students" are producing works of some kind (papers, theses, etc.) that others can read and gain insight from, how can they claim they are contributing to anything in any way at all. It would be like attending university, failing to turn in any work, then claiming you have a right to a full scholarship.

[@rafaelg.9962]

One possible answer is because they keep alive the deep core of your ancient tradition

[@davidcerullo7976]

Your comment is excellent even though I do not understand Israeli law or politics; however, I believe you suggested or said the Orthodox are not exempt from conscription by law, but the IDF is hesitant to incorporate them in the military. If I understood you correctly, please tell me.

[@nigel.w]

Your demonstrable ignorance is dangerous! And, FWIW, if YOU really want to study Torah you can get a stipend to do so, just like anyone else. The secular in Israel claim to have progressive values yet they oppose plurality unless it conforms to their extremely narrow views. They don't understand or want to understand Jews who think differently to them. They don't even bother to think how they came to be secular Israelis in the first place. They have no understanding of where they came from, nor do they care. They have a very narrow perspective and they think they're right and everyone else is wrong. They think they're better and cleverer, yet that's demonstrably false. Whatever you do, please ignore that in just six months many Haredim who want to go to university master what it takes secular Israelis 12 years to master! They master the secular subjects and the English language that they need, having previously studied only Torah. That's because Torah study trains the mind to think. How come the South Koreans know what secular Israelis do not?! Ignorance must be bliss, but it may not be quite so blissful if it leads to civil war.

[@rafaelg.9962]

Hey! I didn't suggest anything ... I don't know why IDF don't want them to be part of it if they are willing to learn how to fight@@davidcerullo7976

[@TheCaniblcat]

@@davidcerullo7976 In theory, the Haredim are exempt WHILE studying at a Yeshiva. In practice, most are only registered to study and don't actually do so, so they are exempt. They are also given a stipend from the government while "studying". SOME Haredim, but not many, do volunteer to serve, such as those in the Nahal Haredi battalion. Everyone else must either register to serve when they are 18 (those with medical, hardship or ethical reasons can apply for exemption), or else can defer conscription while in University, though they must serve an extra year or so as a result.

[@JC-cu3sr]

At the end of the day, who will fight for Israel 's survival?

[@theoBaba773]

Mercenaries.. who else?

[@chrisfarrell9894]

Every Israeli should shoulder the weight equally. In the coming years, Israel may not always have such small numbers of wartime casualties. Battles may take place where thousands or tens of thousands of Israelis will be called upon to lay down their lives. It would be an egregious injustice to all the Israelis who lose their loved ones in the battle to keep Israel free if any element within the demographic makeup of the state of Israel does not have to expose its children to the dangers of fighting in that battle.

[@MALIKAGAA]

You have no idea what's coming to israel if it keeps killing and demonising its neighbours

[@tomerdevorah]

Spoken like someone who doesn't live in Israel. Every single citizen is serving on the "front line" and is subject to the threat of death on a daily basis. Just this week, a soldier whose entire unit had successfully completed three months service in Gaza without any casualties, was shot while traveling on a public road in the car with his mom. ALL of our children - of every age - are exposed to the danger of war. That exists whether on active duty or not. In point of fact, the soldiers are actually better equipped to survive an attack than the civilians are.

[@nigel.w]

Every Israeli should shoulder the weight equally? Well, firstly, let's address the elephant in the room: there's no talk of Israeli Arabs being drafted. Secondly, women serve for less time and aren't compelled to do reserve duty. They also retire five years earlier and receive pensions for longer after generally contributing less. Additionally, there hasn't been a single female soldier killed in Gaza. Thirdly, as far as the casualties in Gaza, not only are they all men, but almost all are either conscripts or reservists, and disproportionately religious. How come hardly any the career soldiers have died? And how come secular Israelis and women aren't sharing equally in the death toll? You're talking nonsense! What today's Israel needs is a professional army, not a bunch of amateurs playing soldier making nonsense claims of being the people's army, which hasn't been the case for decades already. In the meantime, it could also stop placing conscripts in roles for which they are psychologically/physically/ideologically unsuited, and stop training technicians who have no intention of either making a career in the IDF or using skills gained after their compulsory service. Israel could also start treating and respecting its citizens equally.

[@bodac4353]

@@tomerdevorah your point is just obfuscation. Who do you think is more likely to be maimed or die, a soldier on active duty or a civilian? Statistics are clear. Simply because there is a constant threat to all the people of Israel doesn’t mean that the quarter of the population who doesn’t partake in military defense are of service to the country and its fate in any way.

[@totallydomestic433]

@@nigel.w There was a female soldier killed at a gate guarding Gaza. She was very young probably 18 i believe. I remember her because it was ridiculous to have an 18 yr old girl there up against hardened terrorist. Are your ultra religious males all wusses? Looks that way to me, or do they just not appreciate their country?🇺🇸🇮🇱

[@subtronik23]

No it's not a 'hot-potato', it's a 'flaming kneidlach'😅

[@AIRGEDOK]

I am not an Israeli but i was a volunteer at a number of kibbutzim in '90-'91 and I remember many young men and woman doing at least of portion of their national service by working in kibbutzim. Don't see why Haredim can't do the same. Don't see why they get a pass. Also they never really answered the question how did 500 exceptions in 1948 turn in to over 20,000?

[@krishnaveganathar]

They MUST study things besides the Torah. Law, medicine, engineering…. The things needed for the future of Israel.

[@avivacohen8785]

My Chareidi son in law was in the Army. He was in underground bunkers in Tel Aviv, Intelligence Dept When his 3 yrs of service was due to expire soon, the commander told all the soldiers in my son in laws group, Inc my son in law, that everyone did a splendid job and whoever would like to continue working for the Army as a civilian, please apply. My son in law applied. He was told. Oh No Not you! Yes, u did a great job. No complaints. But you are Chareidi You'll have a lot of kids. No, this isn't for you It will cost the Army too much money!!! You see, in Israel , soldiers and civilians worming these jobs, get Extra money for each child they have! Not only that He went Into Tel Aviv to apply for jobs. Not once was He asked what he can do, what he's familiar with. It was Oh You're Chareidi You won't feel comfortable here..... My son in law explained he is only looking to do the job Never was hired Secular don't want Chareidim Face it Period

[@calamari311]

Send them. No deferments for religion in a religious war.

[@Tsukonin]

Tough issue, on one hand, they don't want to join the IDF or work. On the other hand, they're having a lot jewish children which can counterbalance the lower fertility of the general population and especially the very low fertility of secular jews. Of course, these jewish children will mostly become part of the Haredi community too, so they'll become a burden to the economy too. There is in any case definitely a need to increase the number of Haredi men participation in civil society by working or joining the military, even if it's just for peace keeping tasks and local security in their own communities. We need a way to convince some of them or to condition the eligibility of the granted money for their Torah studying to a mandatory military service, again not sending them to war fronts but to take care of civil peace keeping and security.

[@NaProbablyNot]

It’s not good for society to require some to serve and others exempt. ALL should serve in some capacity.

[@maydavies888]

Mandatory enlistment fpr Haredi should also mean mandatory yeshiva studies for secular! Put Haredis in the force where they will prosper and contribute. If it is not on the front lines, it can be elsewhere, employing their skills.

[@davidcerullo7976]

The Ultra-Orthdox Israelis remind me of the Amish in USA 🇺🇸 The Amish are exempt (as I understand it) from registering for selective service (the draft) in USA because the USA government recognizes them as pacifists. I am not sure if this is the same reason in Israel. I always think of the movie "Witness" were the Amish boy saw an Orthodox Jew at 30th train station in Philadelphia. He may have thought he was Amish 😂 But, I digress 😂

[@TheJorrry]

The difference is Amish people do not accept any kind welfare from the Government and work hard But The Ultr-Orthox Jews live off the government welfare

[@davidcerullo7976]

You are correct! The Amish people work very hard.

[@walterarredondo3516]

Like in Colombia, indigenous are not to supposed to be drafted in the army!!!

[@rivkamargolis7368]

They need to make more haridi hesdar type programs. Incorporating the yeshivot with army service. We see from the dati leumi community that they work. The real fear is that the boys will become influenced/ lose their religiosity

[@elianayocheved770]

I said the same thing. That's the future. Widescale Haredi Hesder-type programmes. So they can learn Talmud Torah whilst the serve. They shouldn't even also have to be in combat roles if they don't want to. For sure, they should learn to us a gun and carry a weapon, but they could do so well in intelligence or communications roles. They have sharp minds from their learning, which could be put to good use, to protect the Jewish nation. These skills learned from the army could also help them get jobs for parnassah when they leave the army - like this Haredi hi-tech startup: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5_MZItvg9t6fq8si=jiZo8NbheuSJXoSD

[@tomerdevorah]

Anyone who thinks a synagogue or beit midrash is a safe place to wait out a war should just Google how many lives have been lost in bloody massacres which happened in yeshivas. No one who lives here thinks that any place is safe from the reach of our enemies. "Safety" is not the issue here. Survival is and there is a difference.

[@bodac4353]

What does your point have to do with anything? If they are in such danger then more reason to protect their country. Zealots like you will be the downfall of Israel.

[@avalerie4467]

Let the religious do what they do best - pray for the soldiers and all the world We could all benefit from being a bit more observant, imho. They are active working behind the scenes, supporting King David's army to Victory !! Am Yisraël Chai❤

[@bluaska]

Why can't they be posted along the Gaza and Lebanese borders and pray there?

[@avalerie4467]

@@bluaska it was my understanding that many are on the field and only a tiny percentage of the most religious were not on field. They are still very much involved in défense of Klal Ysrael. They have all my respect.

[@g40471]

Why is it a word 'orthodox Jew think a non orthodox Jew be less worthy of belief ?.Does the Lord not know every hair on ones head?. Judgement is the Lord's . Interpretation of tradition ,whose interpretation whose tradition ?

[@kittykahn8999]

As I say for the non religious as they enjoy there meal and refuses to Believe that it was prepared by someone.!!!!

[@davidcerullo7976]

I thought that the Orthodox were exempt from conscription under Israeli law. I guess the Israeli wants to reconsider that law, but not by, the Knessent, by the courts. It sounds like a "cop out" of the reps of the Israeli people to dump this in the courts. Maybe the courts of the world will run governments 😂 That's my take 😂

[@nigel.w]

No longer exempt. Political leaders like Lapid and Lieberman, as well as many in secular society demand that the Haredim are drafted. It's politicking at its worst and is part of a relentless attack against all things religious by many in Israel, which could lead to civil war. It is also supported by many in the judiciary. But the reality is that the IDF doesn't really want more than a token number of them. It fears what impact a large number of Haredi recruits would have on the IDF, and it is not prepared to accommodate their religious needs. Already the IDF doesn't like the influence of the national religious community that has always been drafted, and makes up the majority of the junior combat officer contingent. It also fears the growing Messianism among the existing traditional and national religious combat soldiers. These threats are very dangerous, and this extremism needs to be challenged, yet because the extremists who threaten to burn down the state are leftists, they are allowed to get away with it. And make no mistake, they are not idle threats, these people were already burning down the state before 7/10 in their opposition to Netanyahu and their demonstrably fake claims to be defenders of Israeli democracy. They were also intimidating anyone participating in anything remotely religious in public. As far as the courts of the world running governments. That's already the case in Israel!

[@kittykahn8999]

@@nigel.w And that is the main reason that Israel is going through hell because there never seem to wake up but as far as I know many have already woken up anď do you really believe that the G_D of Israel is hard up for our prayers. How many ignoramus or atheist there are that enjoy there meal but refuse to believe that it was prepared by someone bravo

[@tomerdevorah]

It's not enough to say "they don't want to do it" and not explain WHY they do not want to do it. The State has made no secret of the fact that they want chareidim to integrate (assimilate) into Israeli society whose values are western and not based on the Torah, very simply not Jewish and that it has been openly stated that army service can accomplish that. Another good and valid reason is that they believe - and it's true - that Torah learning provides a necessary defense of the nation as our Torah and mesorah have taught since Har Sinai. If all the Torah learners are sent into battle, the nation will be exposed without spiritual protection. I suppose the men who are no longer able-bodied enough to serve on the front lines could take their places, but what are the chances of that happening? Chareidim have a much better case for refusing army service than the secular have for neglecting Torah. If they are Jews, nothing makes them exempt from Torah study.

[@rivkamargolis7368]

According to the halacha is a milchemet mitzvah ( a defensive survival war or war for land in Israel - everyone is required to serves- so they can't say that their learning supersedes the mitzvah of serving - that is notvthe halacha!!!

[@bodac4353]

This is like saying sending well wishes to the fighters is of the same value as fighting for the country. Magic isn’t real you know.

[@annakortukov2845]

They aren't more Jewish than Zioni-Dati, who keep all mitzvah, have tons of children AND serve their country. Not to say Jewish traditions are very prominent in life if every Israeli Jew, not just haredin.

[@catbirdfeeder]

They should fight

[@SharkSandwich451]

What does the law say? What does Torah say? Then just do it.

[@rafaelg.9962]

his words were confusing ...

[@Chuck44442]

Are they physically fit too ??

[@TheCaniblcat]

Physical fitness isn't that relevant as they won't necessarily become combat soldiers. Most soldiers serve in non-combat roles, such as intelligence analysis, administration, logistics, etc. I served in a special forces unit and most of the soldiers there, (myself included) worked behind a desk, analyzing data, gathering intelligence, organizing and maintaining equipment, etc. Only about 15% of the unit, give or take, were actual combat soldiers.

[@Chuck44442]

@@TheCaniblcat thank you

[@reneburger4317]

They're ungrateful cowards.

[@Hesham_MK]

The answer is one way ticket to New York 😂

[@brettharman8921]

so the group who wants unconditional war, refuses to fight?

[@kittykahn8999]

Leave the orthodox it is because of they prayers Israel is protected and this is not meant for the non religious as they enjoy there meal and refuses to Believe that it was prepared by someone it is all the good Rabbis that Israel is doing well just leave them and stop going after them this is the main reason that Israel is always having problems when will you'll learn????

[@elianayocheved770]

Let those who want to serve and make it more enticing to and easier do so, in order to encourage more enlistment. For instance, perhaps make a large scale Haredi Hesder-style programme. But the focus should be on Sherut Leumi - national service. We are Jews and for religious Jews, chesed / gmilut chasidim is the highest way of keeping Torah.

[@dronestar1118]

They had 300000 troops! You fighting 30000 Hamas and you need more troops? Sheesh..

[@tomerdevorah]

So, we'll just have to increase our donations to the yeshivot to make up the difference. What the government contributes is a pittance and can be replaced by private donations. The government will be the greater loser as it loses the merit it gains from supporting Torah study. That will make it easier for the Erev Rav regime to fall and better for the entire nation that it does.

[@bodac4353]

What an idiot

[@AriZ-f6l]

😂😂😂

[@hannimalgray4978]

This goes all the way back to the time of Moshe and the Torah. It's tradition that Aaron's line were not chosen to be warriors and Isreal took care of their needs and their families. They have a different duty. Read Torah

[@Jsjsjejej-h7m]

Какую тору которую вы твари 1000000раз переписали и досихпор живете с этой ложью

[@8Ayelet]

So they are not Aaronic. It is every Jew's responsibility to read Torah, and develop a strong faith in Elohim. Then they can pray and make a difference, be a blessing to their neighbors and country. Moses helped during battles. Traditionally, Jewish men defended their communities and their country. Men are proud to take up men's work and men's duties, and are all the more respected for it. You can pray and then fight. The Jewish people have done this for centuries! 🙏🏼❤️🇮🇱

[@loricalass4068]

King David led, and fought in, many battles for his fellow Israelites. The Bible is filled with Israelites fighting for Israel. Not once do we hear of any fight eligible man shirking his duty and staying in his tent, while citing his particular faith position. Nothing in the Bible supports the position of those ultra orthodox rabbis. It is just part of their traditions of men which they go by in preference for what the Bible actually says. How does it look to me, a Christian American? I can’t help but wonder if those stay at home potential soldiers are just being cowardly.

[@Stevexnycautomotive]

✊🇮🇱👼👶👼🇮🇱✊

[@akko328]

How can a government force religious people to commit crimes? Makes no sense!

[@annakortukov2845]

According to you, every single country has done crimes, killing your enemy in a war does not count as a crime.

[@8Ayelet]

Defending your country is not a crime. Wake up!

[@walterarredondo3516]

I have a question, are the ultraortodox Levites? If so, they're not supposed to serve in the army! The Torah prohibits the Levites to be in the army, much less to go to war!!!

[@saul2491]

You definetly aren't qualified to rule on Jewish law if you ask something like are the ultra orthodox levites

[@8Ayelet]

It's an honest question, don't be rude to him.

[@walterarredondo3516]

@@8Ayelet thank so very much. May the Elohim of Abraham bless you greatly