Mhysa Is A Master: Daenerys Targaryen Was Always The Villain Hiding In Plain Sight

[@yellow5218]

The thing that I have still never seen mentioned is just Daenerys's flawed reasoning in regard to the iron throne. The fact that she would always call Robert Baratheon a usurper and an unrightful king because he won the crown through battle against Aerys II Targaryen, meanwhile the only reason the Targaryens had the crown in the first place was because Aegon the conqueror won it through battle some 300 years ago.

[@lostvarius]

The (arguably small) difference is that the Baratheons swore fealty to the Targaryens.

[@Anonymous-vr6ph]

As well as that they United Westeros and plenty of houses swore loyalty even without a fight. That’s no fcking argument.

[@DominionSorcerer]

@@lostvarius An oath of fealty goes both ways and the Targaryens broke it when they ran off with Robert's betrothed (in the eyes of Westeros), murdered Nedd's father and brother and demanded the deaths of both Ned and Robert.

[@lostvarius]

@@DominionSorcerer Of course, still it's different from Aegon's conquest

[@C_Clap]

Yes but also no, you could argue that the kingdom of Westeros only exists BECAUSE Agon unified it. The crown was theirs because they created it. Therefore, when someone takes it by force that someone is usurping the throne. Not saying that I fully agree with this, just that this is the reasoning behind a shitton of wars, both fictional and historical.

[@Holly_Fae]

I have always thought that Dany was a master. When she goes to the unsullied she is going to BUY slaves, not free them. When she doesn't have enough money to pay for them she steals them. Dany tricks the master by trading her a dragon for the fighters and then the dragon kills the master. That's when Dany frees them. But not really...when Dany tells the unsullied they are free they all stay. Why? Because they are grateful? No, because there is nowhere for them to go. The unsullied are taken from their families as children, so they have no family to return to. And as slaves they have no coin to purchase a horse or passage on a ship. They can not pay for food, clothing or shelter. The unsullied are completely dependent on their masters. If Dany really wanted to free the unsullied, she would have offered them some coin. She doesn't. She claims that they are free but they can not leave which binds them to her. She was always a master.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yes this is definitely a huge plot point that people seem to gloss over. Again, I get that GoT presented it differently, but Dany's attitude towards the Unsullied is very pragmatic in the books, i.e. she knows she doesn't have the money to buy them, she knows Westeros won't appreciate a slave army, and she knows that as long as they can be bought and sold, someone could buy them to use against her. Ergo, her decision to "free" them is largely driven by that. That's actually another aspect of the whole Mirri Maz Duur event that bothers me as well. She "frees her slaves" when they're in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by roving pillagers, and they have absolutely nothing in order to survive. And coincidentally that becomes a running theme with Dany, she "frees the slaves" except the circumstances that she creates or puts them in essentially necessitates that they follow her because if they don't then they'll probably die.

[@kahare9565]

@@HillsAliveYT You can also see this in people wanting to sell themselves back into slavery at all, that tells you the circumstances she created by freeing them were not tenable for so many freemen to be there. If she created the correct socioeconomic circumstances that shouldn't be necessary. That's a tall order, but it clearly wasn't done and is a perpetual problem with her 'freeing' slaves.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Totes, and I think that her willingness to let the slaves sell themselves kinda demonstrates that her liberation arc is a false one, as once the serious problems with Dany's lack of planning present themselves, she doesn't actually do anything to fix them.

[@whitediamond133]

When Dany frees Missandei she tells her if there was a place she wanted to go she would be free to and offered her a ship.

[@Holly_Fae]

@@whitediamond133 I don't remember that. Which book was that in?

[@bluebee7335]

It always seemed to me that Dany’s POV is like a delusional or twisted version of reality, something she truly believes but we have to be careful to believe it. Also for me the mad arc (although terrible done in GoT) has a lot of sense, it has really been hinted in the books or at least that something isn’t quite right with her.

[@YourGraceMyLady]

Exactly. Barristan even straight confronts her about it and says he wouldn’t have followed Viserys because he was mad

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

So like Cersei

[@triciacarey2288]

@@wolfsbanealphas617 no she’s far far worse than Cersi, Dany has dragons and has proven to be far more destructive and dangerous then Cersi could ever be.

[@justarandomgirlvx3578]

​@@triciacarey2288Cersei tortures people for fun, she rapes Taena, for fun, she only gives a shit about herself, while dany literally stays in Meereen seeing the mess she has created and wants to simply make it good again.

[@saintjst7]

I think a lot of times we forget what Dany's age is during the first novel. It's not an excuse, but it does explain a lot of her decisions.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Totally, I understand GoT's decision to age up the characters but I think that their real ages makes things actually more comprehensible and more terrifying at the same time.

[@harish123az]

@@HillsAliveYT Want to know what your opinion is about Sansa feeding a surrendered prisoner alive to his dog and killing an unarmed Lord without any fair trial. Was that choosing violence or just peace? What about Arya feeding sons to their father and exstinguising entire generations of family line without a chace for them to surrender (which at least Dany offered everyone you named, from Mirri to Tarleys).

[@HillsAliveYT]

@@harish123az Um both of those things are insane and horrific, obviously?

[@GameOn71213]

@@HillsAliveYT but then from a phycological point of view, when your father's head was cut off Infront of you. You were abused by joffrey and an old man man (little finger) was grooming you to be his wife, and Ramsay r@ped her and this happened while she was only a young girl as in a Teen. By the time Ramsey surrendered Sansa was already emotionally messed up. What Ramsay did to Sansa was NOT acceptable R@pe is not acceptable in any shape or form. He deserved to be eaten by his dogs

[@user-op6kt8pg9y]

@@HillsAliveYT also I feel like In GoT they removed some lines and the actor for mirri made it seem a little more open to her doing everything on purpose especially with the black magic scene she gives a kind of smirk

[@agent_11]

I have always believed that Mirri's prophecy of Khal Drogo returning just meant never. The mountains will not blow like the wind in the leaves, the seas will not dry up, Dany will never conceive a living child, Khal Drogo will never return. To me, it seemed likely Mirri was delivering cruelest form of false hope because she was going to die anyway - her people and way of life were dead, she is a slave, and here comes this whelp of a girl, flocking to her tent, crying "Spells, Mirri, Please!". Dany will live out her days chasing a fantasy and Mirri gets to laugh from beyond the grave.

[@karenholmes6565]

When I read that passage I think of it as a prophecy. That Dany will have a living child. and the destruction of the world will be a result of it. But I do agree that Dany took her words as a cruel curse, part of the reason she executed her

[@emilyrainflower25]

Dany always knew she meant never though? And dany, albeit ignorantly, tried to save her. Dany didn’t give the order to raid the town, kill innocents and r*pe women. She did the best she could in a position where she had little power compared to the khal and his men.

[@bigalsnow8199]

You were correct...those things will never happen so she was clearly mocking the young woman who tried to save her. Danny was quite innocently standing against an entire tribe of Raiders and Thugs in order to stop the rape and pillage. This witch admitted that she hated Drogo from the start and was glad that he died. When poor Danny exclaimed " but I saved you from the Raiders " the witch explained" you didn't save me little girl...I had already been raped " She purposely provoked her master challenging her to kill her. She chose death 💀....However Danny did show in this and many future slayings a cruel Targaryen heart and a lack of remorse which I not only observed but pointed out to my friends and family members all of whom loved and backed her throughout the series.

[@emilyrainflower25]

@@bigalsnow8199 what is she supposed to be remorseful about? Was Jon remorseful for executing a man who disobeyed his order at the wall? Dany was misguided in thinking she saved her but she’s not malicious. She executed her for killing her husband and her unborn child. I don’t see how she’s supposed to feel remorseful for doing so.

[@princessshei9171]

Daenerys already believes that she will never bear a living child, she knew Mirri was just pulling her leg to be cruel to her. She says many times on page that she will never have a living child and that upsets her.

[@Leo_ofRedKeep]

"It is not your screams I want, only your life". Mirri is not being punished, she is being used. She was not questioned, accused or publicly condemned either. It might sound like shocking news to some but anyone who starts a war to get something is doing just the same on a much larger scale. Daenerys' willingness to bring the slaughtering, raping and pillaging Dothraki to Westeros is already more villainous than the killing of one. Daenerys and her brother were presented as villains of the story the moment they appeared.

[@societyoflearning5571]

Yeah I did get that, it came across in the first book in the scene anyway that Dany had figured out how to hatch the dragons through the blood magic she experienced from Drogo and her son. In the book it seemed like she was sacrificing her both for revenge and because she knew the blood of a maegi would be useful for blood magic. Taking life to give life

[@BenefitCounterbench]

The first great red flag for me was when Jorah said the dragons were growing fast, but Dany replied "not fast enough", with an annoyed face. Despite being her "children", she saw the dragons as airforce only. That was unsympathetic regarding her character from my POV, then it escalated throughout the show.

[@twit9129]

That could be interpreted in many ways, not necessarily that her motherly love was a disguise. Remember her dragons were incredibly valuable, and people from all over are trying to get them, wouldn't it make sense for her to want them to grow as big as possible so they can defend themselves as much as possible?

[@haokun12]

My first red flag was when she was watching viserys die

[@ladyofnoxus6733]

​@@haokun12 same lol and the second was killing Miri.

[@justarandomgirlvx3578]

​@@haokun12This is not a red flag, this is one of the most human reactions ever. Why should she feel anything sad in that moment when he just threatened to kill her child, before that repeatefly harrassed her verbally, physically sexually ever since she was a small child? Even later in the books, after Viserys' death she does feel sad about his death and is deeply conflicted. This is what happens with victims of abuse all the time. They remember the very few good moments with their abuser, feel sad for some time about not being with them anymore. Dany however does know deep down how viscious Viserys was to her and avoids letting herself succumb to grief.

[@juliansaasumuoyana8670]

​@@haokun12me too

[@beatrizjardim8308]

I don't think its surprising for her to end up becoming a villian, but what is unbeliviably for me is that she goes MAD from one episode to the others.

[@SerbAtheist]

It's far less surprising when you realize she hasn't gone mad. She has simply stopped pretending that she isn't evil.

[@beatrizjardim8308]

@@SerbAtheist True. It just changed the point of view. Because we always get caught up in Danny's perspective, on her narrative. But when she burns the city down we see it throug the eyes of Jon and The people of Kingslanding.

[@anatoldenevers237]

@@SerbAtheist I still don't believe Dany was always evil. Yes she has had violent tendencies throughout, but there was a massive leap from anything else she ever did to intentionally targeting and slaughtering civilians with no purpose.

[@King_Cova]

@@anatoldenevers237 she did everything with no purpose, she walked into a situation and walked out smelling like roses, it finally caught up to her.

[@risky_busine55]

Yeah the issue isn’t that she shouldn’t end up there, more so that the specifics of the situation don’t make sense, Danny very much fancies herself breaker of chains and protector of innocents, even if its delusion she’d not easily give up any semblance of that image because she does truly believe it. Her most violent acts are always targeted if not at just an individual at least at a specific group. When she attacks the slavers she doesn’t go in dragons blazing even though she could, its just the flipping on a dime despite the fact that none of whats happening to her is anything new to her

[@general_paul]

As most people say, without dragons, Targaryens are no better than their Valyrian shepherd ancestors. Danaerys says that she wants to break the wheel, but doesn't she does it herself when she is even ready to get her hands really dirty to get back Iron Throne because it is "rightfully hers" Even a fool would give the credit of Aegon's conquest to his dragons and not to Aegon himself.

[@bonefacemulenga5107]

True even Viserys and Rheanyra recognizes in HOT that without dragons they are ordinary

[@avengersteve]

I really feel like a big reason that Dany's final act of villainy seems so Out Of Character / Rushed is the obsession with "plot twists" in modern day media. Show/filmmakers so badly want to shock the audience that they actively make their story worse. **Something doesnt have to be a plot twist to be satisfying.** They continuously framed Dany as being wholly good and just so they could have the burning of KL and her subsequent death be shocking, and ultimately pissed off a large swath of fans who had been basically taking them at their word that Dany was a hero.

[@UmamiNoodle]

I can’t help but think that GRRM is going to go that route. But. You know in two more books. 👀

[@AnnekeOosterink]

@@UmamiNoodle Sure, but he has also written her to be less of a good person. She kills lots of people, or commands others to do it, and not just "bad people". Many of those instances were changed in the show.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

I never read the books but only watched a bunch of youtubevideos about the topic, and feel comfortable saying that the writers of the show just don't relate to women at all, there was no woman in the writing room, in this last season where all female empowerment was rooted in petty catfights between women. I don't necessarily think quota will fix everything and a woman in the writing room would have made all the difference, because GRRM seems to do just fine with his writing regarding nuanced female characters. The showrunnees just really overestimated their abilities in finishing the story of this woman that they barely understood. It makes perfect sense that Dany, a woman that was raised as a slave, suddenly gaining power, would slowly go down the road of becoming the dogmatic ruler she dispises. Like, I think the goal is, that history rhymes and that she was starting to express herself in similar entitled ways as her brother Viserys did. The showrunners really made hee character just "snap" into this violent and destructive dictator and struggle to explain why that would happen. These guys just give off this vibe of men, that don't understand women and think they are emotional creatures that snap at them for no particular reason, they could not fathom that a woman would turn violent for any internal logical reason.

[@avengersteve]

@@corneliahanimann2173 @Cornelia Hanimann while i definitely agree that the show screams Men Wrote This, i disagree with the notion that the women were reduced to petty catfights in the final season. calling women character's issues with each other petty ignores the legitimate problems they have with each other. women are allowed to dislike each other or be at odds, eg sansa disliking dany.

[@Seraphina-Rose]

I disagree that the show portrayed Daenerys as a good guy up until she "snapped". Again and again her instincts were "It is my throne and I will take it with fire and blood". Her advisors tempered those instincts - Ser Barristan, Ser Jorah, Tyrion and Varys appealed to her better angels, her empathy; they counseled that justice didn't have to mean killing. But we the audience were manipulated by the show to see her as a heroic character transforming from meek victim into powerful benefactor; the framing shots of her receiving the adoration of formerly enslaved people, the swelling grandiosity of the music, and our own inherent love of a "little guy makes it big-time" story, conspired to make us overlook her attitude of entitlement, to interpret her in the best possible light (when she said she was going to break the wheel, didn't we want to think she meant the tyranny of absolute rulers, maybe the beginning of rule by council or elected officials representing the smallfolk? But she really meant the cycle of one House ruling then another, a permanent Targaryen rule!). We fell for it because we wanted to, but if you rewatch the series, you'll see that entitled, bloodthirsty, power-abusing Daenerys the Mad Queen was there all along, growing as her power grew, and finally unleashed when she ceased listening to the calming influence of advisors and felt that she had no one but herself.

[@boyroy4u]

When she immediately started saying stuff like "the iron throne is my birthright" in the second season, I had a very wary eye on Daeny. It sounded so much like her brother and it's amazing how quickly she adopted his fundamental beliefs like divine rulership or that she was a Dragon (or Mother of Dragons) in a very literally sense. Her utter confusion when people don't want to follow her is another sign that she doesn't understand her power, how the people view her as just another tyrant, not much different than the slave owners or other kings. Like does she actually do anything for the slaves after saying their free? She doesn't offer them land or gold, she just says "freedom" and thinks that means they should kiss her feet lol idk, she just felt like a lot more of a grey character than people saw her as

[@berilsevvalbekret772]

Read the fucking books.

[@aileenpi73]

But they believed they were kings by birthright, just like our contemporary counterparts. That is what a monarchy is. I don’t like it or believe in it but I don’t live in Westeros. I am pretty sure that if my father was a King and I was the only child, I would believe myself to be the heir. If on top of that I bring back dragons, that would give me some freaking confidence.

[@peyotebritta]

@@berilsevvalbekret772 this reading is perfectly in line with the books

[@Anthony_Gx]

but the iron WAS her birth right tho! Her father was king and there are no other relatives. So she is the only living child of the official king. Can't she just state what is true then? Espescially in such an important matter?? Renly, Stannis,Joffrey, Cersei, Margery.... all wanted to be king/queen while they weren't actually born for it. Only dany is held up to such a high moral state that every little thing that doesn't include her doing something for OTHERS, is considered selfish/evil/wrong

[@peyotebritta]

@@Anthony_Gx Stannis is the rightfully king if you want to get technical. Robert deposed the Targaryen’s by right of conquest and Baratheons became the legal heirs to the throne (besides the fact they have Targaryen blood through their mother and the Baratheons started as Targaryen bastards). Aegon conquered the kingdoms through right of conquest and Aerys lost it by the same manner. The Targaryen expceptionislim and their view of themselves as gods amoung men make them dangerous rulers, Daenerys included.

[@notlurking2128]

While I partially agree, I think that Miri did at least some of her actions with a kind of suicidal vindictiveness. One of my favourite lines of the whole series is 'you gave me life. Look at your Khal and tell me what the price of life is when everything else is stripped away' (paraphrasing). This is why I think she didn't try to kill Dany. Because she wants her to experience the pain of loosing everyone she loves like she did. Even if she could escape, where would she go? What would she do? Her life was completely destroyed by Dany/ Drogo. Now, I'm not saying Dany deserved what happened to her, she's certainly a quite self obsessed person but I think alot of people forget how young she is when she's making all of these massive decisions. She has never been taught to care about the people under her (her role models and teachers were all people who hyped her up because of her Targaryen blood), but she still trys to look after her people, she just has no idea how to. I think one of her biggest flaws is that she is a terrible judge of character. She seems to attract people who want to use her in some way or another, and has never had a relationship with someone who respects her for her personality and moral fiber, only her power. That has to fuck with your head somewhat.

[@joshridinger3407]

dany deserved far worse than what she got. yes, she was young. so was joffrey.

[@cervicalvertebrea]

Miri, the queen of suicidal malicious compliance.

[@BambiLena666]

This. The main reason for her decision to stay in the 3 cities is that she wants to learn how to rule and maintain peace in the places she takes over. Shes a child that was never taught how to rule or how to take care of her people. She was abused by Viserys her whole life and the life of the Dorthraki is brutal, their whole way of life is based on raping and pillaging, hell we are told that rulers of bigger cities just give them riches and slaves in exchange to not be attacked when they see them coming. And she still tries to dampen their brutality wielding the little power she has with Drogo at the time. Not to say Miri or her people need to have amazing gratitude to her or anything. But for us as viewers that know the bigger picture, her effort to at least make the slaves lives less brutal is such a big deal for the Dorthraki that it ends in Drogos duel and a death. She couldve just as easily just embraced the violence and Dorthraki ways as a way to gain power and her iron throne. In fact it would have been easier if the throne and power were her only goal and she had disregard for the people. But she constantly tries to do better and to change peoples lives for the better. Shes very young and dumb and inexperienced in many ways, but shes constantly shown she wants to do better. And I completely agree with your reading on Miri.

[@ladyofnoxus6733]

Saying Dany is young is just an excuse. We don't give that excuse for Joffery. Even though he is the same age if not a little younger then Dany. Sorry Dany is just a villain. A great one with depth but still a villain.

[@notlurking2128]

@@ladyofnoxus6733 but like- people do say that about Jeoffry tho? He's clearly a product of shit parenting from a mother who literally saw him as her but with a dick (and thus able to make political decisions) and a father who literally hated him. The commentary with Jeoffry, imo is not that some kids are just evil, but that feudalism lets literal children, who often have had an extremely weird and unstable relationship with empathy (as they are told that they are better than everyone just by being born) be in charge of an entire fucking country. And yeah, Jeoffry is an abusive POS. It's seen in Sansa's POVs that he clearly enjoys inflicting pain and suffering (I'm just not convinced that he would have turned out that way if he had a stable family). But if you read Danny's POV's and got the same vibe, I think that that's just blatant media illiteracy. If you want to read through ASOIAF thinking that there is a clear line between good and bad guys, and that if a person tallies up too many 'bad points' then they are a bad person and irredeemable, that's your choice I guess.

[@DivaQuinzel]

The show truly seemed to go out of their way to make Dany come off as a 'true hero' in the beginning while the books seems to show more of a grey area. An obvious example is Mirri, in the book it seems pretty obvious that Drogo's infection was his own doing, in the show they made in seem as if Mirri intentionally poisoned him. The show makes Dany's actions feel righteous, I didn't realise the underlying villainy of Daenerys character until she crucified the Masters in season 4, the main reason of this realisation being the fact that she picked her victims at random. Even then other viewers made me feel insane for having the opinion that what she did was wrong.

[@berilsevvalbekret772]

how in the world crucifying bastards who crucified 163 children is a villan move? I think she was overly merciful to be honest. You people bend over backwards to agree with the gal without understanding the books , the kind of world ASOIAF is , Danny's own experiences etc. read the fucking books again you certainly didn't understand anything that isn't surface level.

[@7Nebulae7]

It sure is a different thing, looking at things from the perpective of the books versus GoT. The show clearly frames Mirri's actions as intentional, as you mentioned, unlike the books. It's a bit confusing to watch this video, as it's not clear if it's talking about the books or the books and the show. Especially for a viewer like me who read the books years ago and doesn't remember anything...

[@violax3735]

Honestly, Dany killing Mirri never felt righteous to me. I sympathized with Dany (she just lost her son and her husband; the Khalasar left, her whole life seem to be in dust), but I never thought what she did was right. After all, even if Mirri was 100% guilty (which is debatable), she was just living her own life until the Dothraki came, destroyed her village, killed/raped/enslaved her people, raped and enslaved her - and all that just to get money for Dany's war overseas, which had absolutely nothing to do with Mirri or her village. It's not just that Mirri gets justice the only way she can; from her perspective, she's also actively stopping Drogo (and Dany) from killing more people. And Dany doesn't just kill her - she burns her alive for it.

[@Chrysobubulle]

In the show it never appeared as Mirri poisoned Drogo. People just know that a dirty blade wound can lead to an infection. But the show does imply that she made Drogo mindless on purpose

[@christianlouboutin4663]

Well I mean those slave masters did kill many children. She didnt pick them at random.

[@thedrakonishe5138]

The trap of Dany's POV is strong but the trap of TV series casting an adult in her role is stronger, because in the book she's a literal child when she's married off, and expecting her to act like an adult with a solid moral compass is kinda weird. She is a deeply traumatized teen who has just lost the last bits of her family, of course she burns the person who she thinks did it to her.

[@pushista9322]

Exactly what I've been saying for years. Tamzin Merchant would be a much better Dany as she still looked like a thin reckless youth compared to mature and tender Emilia Clarke.

[@AncientChi]

Long live the queen danaerys dracarys

[@SéaFid]

​@@AncientChiYou still simpin?

[@SéaFid]

​@@pushista9322Next you will try justifying Joffrey. Grow up.

[@aizazoie]

Maybe people want her to act with an adult moral compass because that's how the book portrayed her in the first place, or hadn't you noticed that? I have never in my life seen Martin's aim to judge his books by the restrictive morals of today's society, this is not a psychological book and his characters have a rather empirical development. Wanting Daenerys to act mature and less foolish is entirely natural.

[@Monada79]

My theory is that Mirri did intentionally seek out to kill Drogo and Rhaego for the inslavement and the whole Stallion who mounts the world but realised too late that Stallion was Danaerys herself . She killed the wrong person.

[@gamma00crucis]

not even possible tbh mirri went out of her way to ENSURE they knew what they had to do for the spells to succeed. not her fault Dany and co. were rarded and broke every rule she gave them.

[@noriyakigumble3011]

Danaerys’ moral Ambiguity is what makes her one of the best characters in the book for me, And I feel like the show has absolutely botched it by: A- portraying her as the unequivocal hero throughout the first half of the story. And B- portraying her as a genuine villain in the final stretch of the series. Ever notice that in the first book, A lot of Danaerys’ good acts are followed by a horrible act? And vice Versa? I feel like the books do a better job at highlighting that Danaerys is truly at a crossroads of destiny. A contradiction. She’s a brutal conqueror who doesn’t respect the agency of other societies, But she’s also a liberator who seeks to end the brutality of Slavery in Essos. She’s a noble soul who is compassionate and fair in her goals of liberation. But she’s also Myopic in her quest for a throne she believes she deserves, In a land she never lived in, this single mindedness has hurt many. Her goals are influenced in equal parts by her memories of slavery, And her heritage as a Targaryen. She knows what it’s like to be at the bottom of society, Yet has a subconscious tendency to put herself above it. She can be the altruistic and humble liberator, Or a condescendingly paternalistic god depending on which view of herself she draws upon. She ends the slavery that was the legacy of her Valyrian ancestors, Yet in turn she basically creates another Valyrian empire through Fire and Blood, Emulating her Targaryen ancestors. This is the dichotomy that defines Danaerys in my opinion, I feel like calling her “good or evil” misses the point. Rather she is a being of two different natures, imbued with world altering power at the precipice of history. It is simply a question of which choice Danaerys chooses to make at the right moment. That will be her defining moment. Will she liberate Westeros of the Threat of the others and bring and end to the violence that’s been happening for years in Westeros? Or will she continue the bloodshed by conquering the continent and rule Westeros with fire and blood. And more importantly, Will she make that choice as a Targaryen, Or as Danaerys? Power does not corrupt, Power reveals, And there will be a moment in the story where Danaerys will be the most powerful person in history, Where her decision could fundamentally change the world. That’s where we will see her true self.

[@CharismaticDad]

At what point was she an unequivocal hero? Even when she freed the slaves, she took extremist measures by crucifying the masters.

[@noriyakigumble3011]

@@CharismaticDad in all fairness, while crucifixion is a brutal punishment, Slavery is a brutal practice. The show suffers from not having Danaerys’ inner monologue, But I feel like the show should have played more into her delusions of exceptionalism and how her acts make innocent people suffer too. And of course, Have more characters question her acts instead of bootlicking on her conquests. You see the problem? Danaerys’ worst act that the directors call attention towards (before season 7) is her execution of slave owners, Which is more morally grey than outright evil. So when she finally does have that mask off moment, it feels unearned

[@jostockton.]

@@CharismaticDad not even that. She owned slaves, made money from nobles selling themselves into the slave trade, slapped Eroeh, had Mirri burned alive, had kids murdered and tortured. She has never been a hero except in her own mind. That's truly what makes her interesting.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Agreed Dany is a complex character, one who does good and bad when placed into a position of choice or power. I agree with "Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals", as it can show what one will really do with said power, not necessarily "change them". Dany is definitely a "Neutral" in every sense of the word, even if we do see her trying to be a kinder ruler

[@Cernunnnos]

I watched the show before reading any of the books and I called her out as a villain by the time she freed the slaves. I think the show did a really good job of telegraphing it to be honest. I really don't understand how it came as such a surprise for most people. I'd been saying she was going to be the villain since season 3 or whenever slavers Bay was. The foreshadowing was there. She just broke things and acted out of rage. They were clearly building a parallel between her and the mad King. I'd argued with the group I watched the show with all the way up until the end. And they still acted as though it came out of nowhere, despite me literally having called it for like 4 seasons at that point. I actually don't know what they needed to do to make it more obvious without having her kick puppies or something.

[@gwenjackson8583]

I always thought that Daenerys role as a “liberator” was merely a means to an end for her. She convinced herself that she was a righteous ruler entitled to rule everyone she encountered. She “freed” people and gave them the “choice” to follow her knowing full well that the majority of those she freed, if not all of them, would continue to follow her out of gratitude and necessity. Once she came to Westeros, her lofty idea of giving people the option to follow her seemed to disappear. It turned into “bend the knee or die”. That is when I knew she was truly a Machiavellian villain. She did good deeds, but only so far as those good deeds served her interest of achieving power. Once she reached a place where people actually had a choice of whether or not to follow her, she removed the choice entirely. She never really cared about freeing people…it was merely a means to an end.

[@C_Clap]

This is not true tho. Best example (and pretty much the only you need) is the scene when she is informed about King Jeoffrey dying, Westeros being destabilized and the Lanister at each other's throats. People want Daenerys to take her ships and go to westeros right then and there, yet she stays because she wants to solve the problems in Mereen and disband the sons of the harpy. It was not just means to an end, she was TRULY trying to do the right thing, and there is more than enough evidence that shows she really cares about her subjects and wanted to be a good ruler. She just didn't know how to (the revolts in yunkai and astapor after she left, she wanted to fix that as well, didn't know how).

[@C_Clap]

And another thing that makes your assessment pretty unfair is the whole her risking ABSOLUTELY everything to help John Snow. She stood to gain nothing there. Nothing at all. She actually ended up losing a dragon pretty much immediately and still she was commited and decided to help. She could have very easily taken Kingslanding and destroyed her oponents before they even stood a chance, but once again she chose to do what was the right thing and lost a lot in the process

[@gwenjackson8583]

@@C_Clap I will concede that Daenerys did care about the people to an extent. Her desire for power was stronger than her desire to help others though. I think once she started to gain power, she was desperate to hold onto it. Her staying behind in Meereen was a tactical decision though. How could she expect anyone in Westeros to accept her as their ruler if she were to leave Meereen in chaos, a total failure as a ruler? If she can’t rule a smallish city effectively how on earth could she rule 7 kingdoms? And as for her “helping Jon”…do you not see that if she did not help Jon fight the army of the dead then they would just continue to grow and eventually be at her doorstep anyway? If she intended to rule Westeros, and she did, then the army of dead marching towards Westeros was pretty much her problem as well. So I’m not seeing your point there. Daenerys was not a wholly evil or wholly good person. She clearly fell in love with power and felt entitled to it. I’ve yet to see any Daenerys fan explain to me why she gave the people of Essos a choice to follow her but not the people of Westeros? When Missandei said to Jon that they chose her as their queen…I’m not sure why his response wasn’t “Well, Westeros didn’t.” Tell me why someone who was so opposed to slavery didn’t see how telling people to bend the knee or die was no better than what the slavers did?

[@C_Clap]

@@gwenjackson8583 because the setting is completely different. Of course she is a grey character, everyone is, but her motivations are overall, good. She was told her whole life that the Targaryens are the right rulers of the iron throne, of course she felt entitled. And Essos and Westeros are just not the same. She gave the slaves a choice between following her or doing their own thing, same with the Dothraki. The only people in Essos that opposed her were the masters, and she dealt with them with a pretty firm hand, while also trying to be non violent about it (other than the crucifications obviously. Westeros is a whole different beast. In her mind, there is no other reality than her being the rightful queen abd everyone else being her subjects. Again, this is how she was taught the world works, just as all previous Targaryen generations did. And she did just as Aegon the conqueror did, give everyone a chance to bend the knee (we don't talk about the bells) or die. She can't let them just "go do their thing" as she did with the slaves, because for westerosi lords if they are not in Danny's side, they are against her. If she hadn't killed the Tarlies, they would have fought alongside Cercei. It would be politically moronic to risk your men and resources in a full blown battle when you can completely avoid ot by dealing with the lords commanding the enemy army. It's not about being good or evil, it is about being smart. And I don't think mereen was a tactical decision for her at all. She stood to lose way more than to gain by staying there. The tactical decision would be to put all the masters through the knife, stablish a loyal governmet, take all their riches and leave. That was the most tactically sound decision and she knew ot, but she was trying to be a good queen. As to the night king and John yes, she had to help obviously. She did NOT need to risk her life and dragons just to save Jon. She also had the opportunity to just conquer Kingslanding and deal with Cercei in probably less time than it took to find a wight, bring it there and have a peace talk. She had the army, she had the fleet (or not, i don't remember) and she had all three dragons. Kingslanding didn't stand a chance. But she CHOSE to wait for the slim chance of Cercei joining forces with her. Again, I'm not saying Daenerys is all light and good, she made a lot of dark and nasty choices, but that comes with the job description. A king must make this kind of decisions and live with them. And yes, Danny was seeking the throne for herself cause it was her birthright, but she was also truly trying to make the worl a better place and to improve the lives of her subjects (everything that happened after the bells tolled doesn't count cause that was just bs).

[@William-the-Guy]

She's not a great Machiavellian though. Machiavellians are calculating and precise. Dany often let her emotions cloud her judgement. The Machiavellians were Varys and Tywin.

[@kahare9565]

Also, Mirri and her village are instructive, this is what conquest is: pillaging and rape and captivity, maybe they’d only be peasants Westeros side but Drogo makes a ‘Feast for Crows’ to get to Westeros, Dany is confronted by that, makes a half-hearted gesture to save some women, is shocked when her conquests aren’t thrilled, and then burns them. If anything it seems a huge parallel to a potential Battle of the Bells as I believe you’ve mentioned before. When Westeros doesn’t go exactly how she wants and she doesn’t receive the validation she craves, ‘burn them all’, just like dad.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yeah agreed, Dany’s notion of what “saving someone” is pretty far off target and I think that will play a big role in her Westeros expectations vs. reality.

[@princessshei9171]

@@HillsAliveYT It's a great thing that Dany learned her lesson from Mirri and chose to stop working within the system to help people and to topple the system directly instead. It's almost like her character is a child at the beginning of the books who is slowly learning how to become better through trial and error with the best intentions at heart.

[@angrashadow2958]

@@princessshei9171 Except that ends up in failure at the end of Dance and she realizes that she is not meant for anything other than Fire and Blood.

[@princessshei9171]

@@angrashadow2958 LOL that's not true. By the end of A Dance with Dragons she realizes that the peace with the masters was unjust and not possible because she allowed them to retain too much power which directly affected her freedmen. She regressed into a scared little girl who refused to go to war or rule with the necessary heavy hand in Mereen which ended with the masters hollowing out her revolution, stepping all over her, and harming her freedmen. She learned more politics and took many measures for peace without the use of violence even though they were detrimental to herself. Her arc in ADWD is learning when to use soft power and when to use hard power, she is getting back in touch with who she was in ASOS with all of the lessons of Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen on her mind. Sometimes violence is necessary to achieve peace, complacency only benefits the oppressors and Daenerys is done with that.

[@Chrysobubulle]

@@princessshei9171 she is 14 at the beginning of the books. So intellectually speaking and given that she was never instructed to be a leader, she is a child.

[@andrewmize823]

The central theme of GoT is that power corrupts. Considering everything else that happened in the series, I thought it should have been obvious from the start that Dany was heading towards the dark side. That's not a defense of the writing for GoT season 8; it was a very poorly executed story arc no matter which way you slice it. I'm just saying that Dany's corruption wasn't thematically out of place.

[@poppag8281]

I think thats part of it as well as the human heart in conflict with itself

[@user-op6kt8pg9y]

Its the same as bran being king when you think about it it makes sense for him to be the king the rushed writing just went from a to z without any of the in between

[@princessshei9171]

George's writing has been more along the lines of "power reveals" not "power corrupts" else every ruler in ASOIAF would have went mad long ago and that's not the case.

[@andrewmize823]

@broski wavy She decided to destroy the city AFTER her soldiers had subdued the Lannister forces. The city had already surrendered, and she had already effectively won. All she had to do to accomplish her goal was kill Cersei. Everything else was completely unnecessary. She didn't make that decision for strategic purposes, she did it because she wanted to.

[@or6397]

Well then why isn’t every character with power punished for having it? By that logic the Starks should have been destroyed for being aristocrats. Bran should have been killed for what he did to Hodor. Jon should have been killed for being Lord Commander. Those characters have real power and there’s not even that much difference in how they actually wield it. The Starks summarily execute people, they keep serfs, aren’t democratic, piss on the rule of law and even have the same hyperbolic titles like Grey Wolf and Kings of Winter. He doesn’t actually punish Dany for having power. He punishes her for overtly desiring it and being melodramatic. Instead of the Starks who stone faced get given first half the Kingdom and then the rest of it on a silver plate.

I always thought it was a feature, not a bug, that we can't be sure if Mirri meant to help or hinder Dany. But your theory that the ritual to revive Drogo would've worked if Dany's baby hadn't been a Targ deformity is a fascinating way to bridge the gap.

[@kalinmaify]

I overall agree with your opinion. I want to add one thing. Rhego is dead anyway if we are to believe Jorah. Besides Dany was warned about the consequences to Drogo (There is a spell.” Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. “But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner.) I can understand why Dany did it, she was stressed out and losing everything she had but still. The only thing that surprises me in that story is that Mirri hasn't left Dany. I guess it may be proof that she actually is innocent. The most jarring thing is that Dany thinks of Mirri's action as a betrayal while deciding that she isn't going to punish slaves for rising up against their masters.

[@7Nebulae7]

I don't know how many of the Dothraki were left by that time. Would Mirri have been able to get away or would she have been stopped? Where would she have gone? Her whole village was destroyed by the Dothraki. Maybe it was because she was actually innocent. Well, not in the show. They made it quite clear she did everything intentionally. But in the books it's not certain.

[@C_Clap]

While I agree that killing Mirri was not righteous (in the book), I don't think it has absolutely anything to do with her being a slave. She is not punished for reveling against her master, she is not punished for defying her master, she's killed because in Danny's eyes she was responsible for the deaths of her husband and son. And I believe thay deep down she knew it wasn't, but the pain and regret of accepting her own culpability was way more than she could handle, so she forces herself to believe Mirri is an evil witch that got revenge on her. Let's not forget that in the books she is just a teenager that has just lost absolutely everything. Her only way to cope and move on is to reinforce in her mind her idea of what her destiny is and to pursue it.

[@YourGraceMyLady]

I thought it was fkd up that MMD was blamed for KD death when he was drinking and taking milk of the poppy when MMD explicitly told him not to

[@tsuritsa3105]

I never took Mirri's execution as righteous. One of the things I love about Dany's character in the books is the contrast between what she does on her path to power and how she views herself. She's a textbook example of someone being the hero of their own story. She's an incredibly conflicted character and I think at the end of "A Dance of Dragons" we are poised to see a Daenerys who is more honestly ready to embrace the violent conquest she has been perpetrating. I think we are poised to see her "villain turn" in a clearer light. But that's speculation, even if it is speculation I've had since Dance released - the year Game of Thrones debuted. I don't love Dany because she is the great hero of the books (that's Jon, and honestly sometimes his chapters irritate me). It's because of the layers and complexities there.

[@JediLordNathan]

I'd disagree Mirri basically committed murder outright; she deserved to die. End of story.

[@tsuritsa3105]

@@JediLordNathan I disagree, but let's say for a minute you are absolutely right and she deserved death. NO ONE deserves to be burned alive. That is torture, it's inhumane, and it's wrong. Mirri's execution can't be righteous because the method is beyond fucked up, and that method is chosen purely for Daenerys's gain. It's a major clue into who Dany is

[@JediLordNathan]

@@tsuritsa3105 I can think of a fair few people who deserved to be burned alive I consider it a valid method of executing murderers; also its a medievel fantasy setting, cruel and unusual punishment was the norm in pretty much every culture for crimes like murder. You are looking at this from a modern real-life human's perspective and certainly NOT from perspective of someone living in the setting and you are ignoring the broader narrative, a few cruel acts does NOT define a person completely if we are going to judge people on executing their enemies you are basically condemning any person who tries a war criminal or deals with wrongs; its only reprehensibly evil if you kill a child, which by the way Mirri Maz Dur was certainly did, that was the intent of her spells and child killers deserve the death penalty especially in a Fantasy universe set with a Medieval system of justice. Also are we going to assume all Targaryens are evil then you'd have to lump Jon, and his two murdered child siblings in there as well, as Daeron the Good, Baelor the Blessed and plenty of other Targaryen monarches who were good and just rulers. Also you seem to ignore all the good things Dany did like freeing slaves, refusing to kill children that were her wards that she had taken as hostages, actually fighting in the War for Dawn when she didn't HAVE too even to a point losing one of her own dragons to save the lives of people trapped Beyond the Wall, also not to mention how merciful she was to Varys a man who betrayed her father, her actually taking Tyrion in and not killing him AND forgiving Jorah Mormant. Also can we be reminded that she only snapped after losing a number of people that were close to her to bull shit writing AND characters who had no business realistically causing those deaths, first off Euron being able to kill Dragon bullshit writing, you aren't going to convince me that Show Euron who is functionally a discount evil Ragnar can take down a dragon, Book Euron potentially but he wouldn't want to he'd want to use Dragonbinder to control it. Secondly the very idea that Dany needed to send troops via sea is stupid, she could have easily marched her armies overland, worried about the safety of Missandai? Keep her in Winterfell or anywhere in the North or in ANY of the territory she had safely occupied at this point. Also the Golden Company siding with the Lannisters? No the Golden Company would certianly not side with Cersei not after all the murders she committed as they have standards with what jobs they take they'd likely stay neutral OR join Dany's side. Also if we are going to talk about the real villain of Season 8 its Bran Stark, he saw ALL this and did nothing to stop it he let it all play out so he could get power all for himself. He's obviously devoid of any emotion or care for normal people which means he'd have no ethical scruples about ruining the lives of Jon and Dany just to get power for himself. He's no better than Baelish in my eyes. If you were to have put me in charge of writing the final season changes I'd make, Cersei dies flat out, the Night's King is killed by Jon instead of Arya which made ZERO sense, and ultimately Jon and Daenerys would either both ruler as joint rulers husband and wife OR establish an elective monarchy or hell even a democracy or Republic, or just break the kingdoms back up into eight sepperate realms and have the two sod off over the Summer Sea to find a new realm to raise their children AND the Dragons in peace far from the nonsense. That would be a bittersweet ending, nobody sits the throne Jon and Dany have to deal with ALL the people that have died along their lives with all the mental and physical scars that implies, and well the Seven Kingdoms will have a better government then anything Bran can provide I'll tell you that much. Season 8's ending was NOT remotely bittersweet it was a tragedy, Martin's intent is for a bittersweet ending like that of the Lord of the Rings, the thing is if want that you don't have to kill off your two leads, just make it so their lives have changed and the world has changed so much that they can never return to their previous lives, Frodo couldn't stay in the Shire which wasn't even the same Shire he left because Saruman took over after escaping Orthanc with the aid of a band of brigands causing the hobbits to have to fight to free themselves; Frodo himself still had the scars from the Morgul wound and had to go to Valinor so he could be completely healed he left Middle-Earth behind, Aragorn never was able to return to the way of the Ranger he became the King of a nation and embraced his duties, and of course Gandalf, besides the fact that the Grey Wizard wouldn't be wandering Middle Earth as a grey Wizard because of his death, he has completed his task that was to defeat Sauron and he sailed away with the other ringbearers from the Havens past to the harbor gates and beyond to the White shores of Valinor and Eldamar in a realm beyond the world of Middle Earth. The Lord of the Rings has a bittersweet ending; GOT Season 8 has a tragedy at best or just sloppy horrible writing at worst and honestly I could have written a better ending that made sense. Hell if we arguing that killing someone is enough to exempt them from ruling Bran can be exempted by confining poor Hodor to his death by Wight swarm, we can exempt Sansa for having Ramsey Snow eaten alive by his own dogs, we can exempt Tyrion for murdering his own father, we can exempt Bronn for being a Sellsword who has killed a LOT of people, we can exempt Sweet Robin for throwing people to their deaths via the Moon Door in the Eyrie, we can exempt pretty much the entirity of the cast because every single surviving member by Season 8 had killed somebody in a brutal over the top fashion, its what happens in the setting its NORMAL in the setting judging it by modern morals is a stupid idea because the context AND civilizational norms along with technology are completely different. Anyway the point of it is that the last season of Game of Thrones was a collective shit by Dumb and Dumber on the fanbase and horrible writing for a finale they had TWO YEARS to make and would have gotten more time if they'd ask. Defending Dany's turn is like defending that season in general and lets be honest with Discovery's new management it will likely have to be retconned to keep the franchise having longevity because as it stands the only way to get back the fanbase is a retcon because eventually people are going to get the nagging feeling and remember that all the spin-offs they all lead to the same trainwreck of Season 8. Anyway, I think its awfully stupid of you to try and defend the shit writing of Season 8 and defend the child murderer that was Mirri Maz Durr, also one thing to note Dany thru herself on the pyre and it was meant as both justice and suicide for herself along with a funeral pyre for her dead son and husband, she had no idea that she wouldn't burn nor that she'd hatch dragons. Also can you really blame her for making the choice she made, if someone had done that to my relatives I'd see them burn alive too, but that may be my sadism but I will not stand by and let you call a child murderer and a murderer in general unjustified of death, its only the manner of it that changes, also she deserved to suffer, she made two people suffer agonizing deaths with her dark magic and poisons and rendered a woman near infertile; I'd say that death by being burned alive is getting off easy if it were me deciding her fate I'd have buried her in the ground and had her eaten alive by fire ants or have had her drawn and quartered by the Blood riders pulling her apart with their horses, or had flayed slowly to death, or had her buried alive or had her crucified; there are worst ways to die then by fire and to be honest I think that the US law on Cruel and Unusual Punishment is stupid with regards to execution criminals that have been proven guilty of murder, rape or other high crimes that merit death should have agonizing public deaths, it's only fair that for their crimes they suffer before they die. On that colorful note I only have one thing left to add that being that if we are going to talk about what should have been the end-game villain it should have been entirely the Night King, he was built up to be the big bad, killing him off in the middle of the season and in such a bull shit way made the rest of the season pointless as the real enemy that the show had been building up to died in the middle of the act: Night King is dead, story is over no need to create a new final threat: if you want a clear endgame threat it should be the one you've built up as the big bad since the first episode the White Walkers and their Night King, not take a character who was largely chaotic good for the entire series up to one stupid point and have her do a sudden complete 180% in character morals. The idea of doing that is just SHIT writing ok I've written fanfiction with better plot twists: Anyway I'm going to do the sane thing and write off Season 8 of as a nightmare that Bran had when he was still training with Blood Raven and create an alternative ending which to be honest Discovery is liable to have to do that if they want to turn a long-term profit from the franchise.

[@tsuritsa3105]

@@JediLordNathan You seem to have inferred a lot of things from my remark that I didn't say. I never said all Targaryens were evil. I didn't say there was one villain of Season 8 over others. In fact I haven't even seen Season 8 of Game of Thrones as I am mostly a book fan. I'm engaging in character analysis here. I didn't discount anything that Dany has done. I said that she is a complex character. She has done both good and bad things. I believe after the end of "Dance with Dragons" she is poised to take a more explicitly villainous turn in her book arc. That is almost the sum total of my remarks, and I'm not at ALL sure why you are so defensive about it. I said point blank that Dany is one of my favorite characters. I'm not going to debate morality with you. You can say I'm looking at things from a modern context but even in the middle ages, which I have studied, burning people alive was reserved for religious crimes and was still heinous. The time period doesn't make it less awful an act. If you think that horrific executions are appropriate for people, well...that's certainly a take. I disagree wholeheartedly. In any case, the overall subject was Dany as a complex character versus straight off hero, basically. I don't find her to be the pure "hero" of the piece. I don't really think anyone fits that bill, although imo Jon comes the closes - which often also makes him the most boring read. Happy reading.

[@JediLordNathan]

@@tsuritsa3105 You will at least agree making her a villain was bad writing and they should have just stuck with the Night King as the big bad, they'd already built him up no need to create a new twist villain when you already had a VERY serious villain and a major world-ending villain at that point. Again best option Night King is big bad, Jon and Dany both survive or if one dies then Berric uses his abilitie to resurrect the fallen, the encounter makes neither of them want to be ruler, Cersei gets toppled easily and a new system of leadership is put in place with neither Jon or Dany having any part in leadership of the Seven Kingdoms and instead choosing to live a life FAR from the nonsense of Westeros either over the Summer Sea or in Mereen where Daenerys was fine off and beloved hell it would keep the Slavers from ever returning to power and create a lasting legacy that won't die with her death, a new Targaryen Realm rulling over the Bay of Dragons and what remains of Valyria and potentially Qarth. That would be a good ending and the two passed away still scarred by the many losses and never able to return home BUT it would in place where both their hearts may rest. Bittersweet because of all the deaths but not tragic

[@JMD501]

She solved all of her problems by literally setting them on fire. Why did people think she would do anything else.

[@NeedsContent]

I said this for years while the show was happening and people shot me down. Daenerys only looked heroic because she was brutalizing people we are were supposed to hate.

[@mrbubbles6468]

And most of the time we were only supposed to hate them because Danny hated them. Not because they were worthy of hate

[@seekittycat]

I mean she got mad pissed at slavers torturing and raping the children not sure why we're not supposed to hate them. Her narrative is that she comes from a place of deranged privilege but was also a slave so she can relate to them.

[@daniig62]

@@mrbubbles6468 slave masters are worthy of hate

[@lilythiri]

Exactly

[@tenzek4635]

But all of the major characters did the same. The world wasn't as simple as pure good and pure evil until they ran out of book material.

[@iloveyourunclebob]

I've always felt that had Drogo followed her directions he would have lived, but she always knew he wouldn't. And that she knew all she had to do was what was asked of her and it would result in Rhaego and Drogo's end.

[@cervicalvertebrea]

malicious compliance!

[@enriquecabrera2137]

@@cervicalvertebrea that's not malicious compliance. That's regular compliance.

[@lizzystar5346]

I see what you’re saying about how it’s common that Targarian have those still board with the deformed babies but if you read the books carefully Daenerys clearly states that she feels her son kicking and she feels him moving around before she enters that tent the moment she enters the tent the kicking know feels like claws that are scratching her and tearing her up from the inside but that didn’t happen until she entered the tent so some thing that happened in that tent changed her baby

[@AmandaabnamA]

That's what I thought too. That Daenerys basically traded him for Drogo so that he could be alive. Or something in the magic took/twisted him as sacrifice anyway

[@manuelsilva6244]

Yep, I've said this since season 4. Dany never struggled with being violent and subjugating people to her will. Unlike Jonh who we see morally struggling for entire seasons for the fact that he has to bring justic to some people, dany always does it with pleasure and a revenge attitude. And the public applauded that because "badass woman is just giving those people what they deserve". Theres a very fine line between justic and revenge for the sake of personal pleasure. And most of the audience mixed them two in the show and probably in their own lifes.

[@Magdalenasfears]

I don't think Danny saw her as her slave. I think she thought she liberated her and the other women and didn't think past that. Probably assumed she was staying with them until she found somewhere to go, or had chosen to stay as a healer. Remember, Danny is very young in the books and lived a sheltered and abused life. She stayed with all her abusers, her brother, Drogo (even though she loved him, she was sold to him). I think she acted like a lot of abused children or children with traumatic upbringing, who don't understand moderation with their emotions. This person hurt me, I'm going to hurt them back.

[@ardenalexa94]

Yeah, in real life someone going through so much trauma would be able to go through therapy but in that world, they wouldn’t be able to.

[@wadewilson8011]

Daeny's character development is summarize in one sentence: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

[@maesterchris2120]

Daeny doesn't have good intentions though

[@anatoldenevers237]

@@maesterchris2120 Yes she does. She wants the throne, but she also does genuinely care about people. I though that was pretty clear when we read her POV.

[@saikeenra]

@@anatoldenevers237 Does she truly? Her ultimate goal is to conquer Westeros simply because in her eyes, the entire continent is her property. There is no slavery in Westeros, she won't be freeing anybody. She's not better suited to rule it, either -- she doesn't know anything about that land or its people. And she doesn't consider it her solemn, unwanted duty that she's somehow forced into; she only keeps repeating that Westeros is hers and belongs to her, like the country was a toy somebody took from her. And this -- not ending slavery or peaceful rule in Essos -- is her real, true aim all along, as she herself tells us. When it comes down to it, she's willing to raze peaceful tribes, sell slaves, and let hordes of murderous rapists and flying WMDs ravage a whole continent for no other reason than personal greed and entitlement. Dany cares about people when she's looking directly at them, but it doesn't really translate to any particular concern about the suffering she's causing and will cause on the grand scale. In this case, the road to hell is paved with very bad intentions, and the good intentions are essentially a window dressing.

[@Lex77755]

‘When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground’ the tv series messed it up, but we already knew, we just forget it.

[@redrackham6812]

Thank you! You have really put so well what I have been trying to say to everyone about this for years now. Daenerys was never good. Yes, she did some good things, such as abolishing slavery in some of the cities of Slaver's Bay, but there is a lot more to being good than being against what is bad, especially when the good you do is at someone else's expense. And lots of people tried to tell her what her father was, and what her family was, and she just never listened. And the Targaryens have no rightful claim to rule. Their rule was based on violence in the first place, and they were lawfully and legitimately deposed when Aerys II broke the reciprocal bonds of obligation that bind a king to his subjects. And people tried to explain this to Daenerys, and she just never listened.

[@kahare9565]

Mirri I always thought was trying to ingratiate herself to Dany, cure Drogo, deliver Rhego, save Drogo, etc. She’s been to Ashai and trained with Marwin, we don’t really realize how ridiculous this backstory is after GoT, but how outlandish that is for some random village healer only becomes obvious later. I’m not sure what she was working toward, getting her to Ashai? IDK. I do think she was working toward trust, not revenge. Mirri tried her best and Drogo and Dany caused their own issues.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yeah I think that’s a very good point, I mean presumably if a maegi wanted to bounce she could, and the fact that she realizes that Dany is going to resurrect dragons and doesn’t seem to want that also can’t be a coincidence.

[@tarvoc746]

@@HillsAliveYT What's really weird though is that even though Mirri didn't seem to want her to resurrect dragons, doing that only becomes possible for Dany _because_ of Mirri and her actions. There's something very wrong here...

[@jostockton.]

@@thetalesofelbek7042 a logical, airtight argument from Team Lizard when faced with canon as usual lol

[@tarvoc746]

@@thetalesofelbek7042 Hmm, so you disagree with this video? Hill's Alive seems to think that Mirri's presence on the funeral pyre was essential for hatching the dragons.

[@tarvoc746]

@@jostockton. What's "Team Lizard"?

[@kevindepuy5390]

I like to use Mirris death as the reason why Marwin will betray Dany, or be one of her betrayals. Marwin seems like he will be super loyal to Dany, but I believe once her learns that his pupil Mirri was sacrificed by Dany, he will realize he was wrong about her being a savior and betray her.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Interesting theory!

[@jostockton.]

Ooh, I like that theory

[@lilythiri]

I literally can't understand why people didn't see it coming 😂. I suspected her when she started saying 'Bend the knee' or ' I'm your queen'. I feel sorry for her but she got what she deserved

[@arianweneverett3910]

Your connecting Summerhall to Dany's dragon hatching is prescient, and makes me wonder if the person that Ser Duncan rescued in the maester's account, the one who 'would have perished but for the valor of the Lord Comm...' may have included the Ghost of High Heart. It would make sense why the document was smudged so thoroughly, if the royal family wanted her survival and Dunk's betrayal in saving her, hidden lest someone else figure out how to hatch dragons.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Oh yeah that would totally make sense!

[@Lynchy626]

@@HillsAliveYT I have another theory. That Rhaego's life is the life sacrificed to give life to the dragon eggs, and that the life Duncan saved was actually the soon to be born Rhaegar

[@anathemadevice1900]

Honestly, when Mirri said "there is not gonna be a stallion that mounts the world" i felt that. Well done, kween

[@harshagrawal1056]

I personally wasn't surprised by her mad queen arc but it was badly written. There have been signs of her going mad. She doesn't hesitate to kill Mirri, drags the wine seller, burns people with dragons for pleasure, killed slave masters. Also when someone has an opinion different than her she doesn't take it well except when it was Jorah. Look at how she just killed Randyl and Dickon Tarly

[@saddany3254]

Poor and arbitrary assessment. 1. She never burns people for pleasure LMAO. Never in the show nor the books implies she gets high or laughed or anything whenever she EXCUTED people by burning, go ahead cite me and prove me wrong. Even at the meerenese pit, she's disgusted watching people hurting each other. Your claim is severely arbitrary. 2. Rickon and Randyll. This always blows my mind whenever people make this as an argument for her mad evidence. First look at the context, Tarlys are Tyrell bannermen, and the Tyrell has sworn to be an allies for Daenerys cause. Meaning if Tarly's betrayed the Tyrell that also mean they betrayed Daenerys. Betrayal in and of itself is a crime that is punishable by death, no negotiation. Robb executed Karstark for breaking the rule, Jon beheaded Janos for disobeying a command, nobody questioned their decision. But now Daenerys executed traitors, that openly war against her, which is objectively worse than just disobeying a command like Janos, but somehow It's wrong for her to executed them? Added the fact that she gave them second chances to live TWICE. Did Jon gave Janos second chance? did Rob have Karstark second chance? The double standard is disgustingly too apparent. ANNDD ALSO added the fact that they're losers in battle. Losers in battle are either automatically executed or prisoners. What Jon did against ramsay a battle loser? Surely Jon let Ramsay live a happy life right? 3. 'She doesn't take different opinions well'. Well this is another arbitrary baseless claim. Keep it short, and concise. Jon, Tyrion, Daario, Hizdahr, Selmy, Varys, she has complied to many of the aforementioned people's opinions and advices, not just Jorah LMFAO.

[@C_Clap]

@@saddany3254 exactly. She never kills for the sake of killing. Mirri was in her mind responsible for her loved-ones deaths. The masters she crucified deserved that punishment since they did the same to their slaves just to send a message. Randy and Dickon Tarly did not "have an opinion different than hers", the Tarlies were sided with Cercei and thus her enemies. Had she not executed them or improsoned them, they, and their army, would have fought against her. Many more lives woukd have been lost in a full blown battle. Letting them go free would have been a moronic decision. But still, she did not take pleasure in killing them, killing them was what needed to be done if you take imprisonment out of the table.

[@abandonallhope.1040]

So it would make sense for Tywin Lannister to go apeshit one day and destroy King’s Landing too because of all the atrocities he committed? How many lords or kings had people killed brutally because they refused to bend the knee?

[@BruceWayne-fj9bm]

100%

[@BruceWayne-fj9bm]

@@saddany3254 Cope

[@breezy3392]

I always found it odd when people talked about Daenerys, a Game of Thrones character, like they expected her to come out a Disney princess at the end.

[@Millencyne800]

I VIVIDLY remember saying out loud to my husband when I saw Jorah walking into the tent with dany, “que pendejo she literally said there’s death in there and ur taking the baby…? No Mamés” 😂 hearing the book aspect of that story now def gives me 👀 on dany cause she always seemed so entitled even when she was spitting out “free the slaves”

[@anitat9727]

Honestly I surprised by the 'mad queen arc' because it was poorly written not because I didn't think she was capable of doing those things.

[@pebble8560]

I was always shocked that no one else seemed to realize that she was a villain! I thought it was clear and obvious from the beginning.

[@angela_merkeI]

From the beginning? I.e. when she was a 12 year old child bride repeatedly raped? Wtf.

[@thearbiterofwv8314]

Woah. I think George R.R. Martin was planning to turn the good guys into bad guys and the bad guys into good guys. Example: Jamie and Tyrion Lannister. Jaime was originally the Kingslayer, who's pushed Bran out a window, and mocked Jon Snow for wanting to join the watch. Later we learn he's the man who saved Kingslanding, who tried to warn Jon about the burden of swearing a life-long oath and admittedly did try to kill Bran, but only so his children would live. Tyrion was the tragic genius who's first wife was fabricated by his monsterous father, then humiliated infront of his eyes. He spent his years as a harmless party animal, but upon being thrust into the Game of Thrones, became a valient strategist who saved the family who (mostly) hated him. But most recently, he's the most spiteful of all of them. He killed Shae for the crime of daring to sleep with Tywin (who probably would have killed her). He manipulated Aegon? to attack Westeros, simply because he could. He mocked every political opponent he ever went up against, and was surprised when they testified against him. I wonder what ASOIAF will do with Cersei's arc.

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

I would suggest it’s more grey that is the conclusion rather than black to white, white to black; GRRM saying things are situational and messy, that even people like Ramsey, Joffery, Gregor, and Petyr have “good” reasons and/or justifications for why they do what they do. Ramsey IS the true heir of Winterfell denied his rightful Stark inheritance by the Starks, mother cast away. Gregor pretending to r-e a girl so his men wouldn’t and having nothing to do with Elia nor her children. Joffery was raised by awful people the “best” of them slapped him around as humiliation to punish him, Tyrion. Petyr is doing everything to save his actual daughter Sansa and give her the best marriage possible. For Cercei, one: by “true” Targaryen inheritance (maternal) she is probably the oldest Targaryen (Aerys and Joanna) woman and rightful heir to the throne, older than Daenerys and both of them are bastards (Aerys and Ashara for Daenerys). Two: she cares most about her children and does anything to try to protect them without judgement, whether or not they seem to deserve it. Three: will be fighting Dragon Queen Hitler.

[@mappingshaman5280]

@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 How is ramsay the rightful heir of winterfell? Even if "arya" was arya (which even the boltons know she isn't), Sansa is known to be alive. Not to mention Ramsay knows that theon never killed bran and rickon, so there is no reasonable argument that he is the rightful heir of winterfell, especially not from his own perspective. What do you mean pretending to R a girl? There's no indication that Gregor actually did that. Also Gregor admitted to raping and killing Elia and killing her children, and considering how bad that would be for him, there's no reason to assume he lied. Petyr does occassionally do good things, but only if there's some sort of benefit to himself. What are you talking about? Ashara Dayne and Aerys probably never even met. Not to mention when Dany was born she was on dragonstone whilst ashara was in Dornne. Cersei does not "care more" about her children. In the books she sees her children as an extension of herself, hence why her favourite is Joffrey, because he's as much of a metaphorical bastard as she is, whereas Tommen and Myrcella are far kinder.

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

@@mappingshaman5280 the pregnant girl in the black water in Bran’s backing up time vision is Lady (Ryswell) Dustin. She is asking for justice since she married Brandon by the tree. Grampa Rickon and Maester rejected the marriage instead to marry Brandon to Cat. Ned was the replacement til Brandon and Rickon died. Not sure at what point Benjen went to the wall but regardless, this left Dustin with a bastard that wouldn’t even get Winterfell even though they did marry. Even after the Stark boys she was given Dustin but he “died” at the tower (really probably sent to Lorath with baby Jaqen, killed by Euron for the “dragon egg” Jaqen sold to the Faceless Men). Most of this is overlapping allusions to fairytales like two for the Yellow Fairy Book and Beowulf. Beowulf: Jon Snow (sorta Ned kinda) Grendel: Ramsey Grendel’s mother: Dustin Victim from the Meadhouse: Rob Stark (really Baratheon) aka newest Reek at Moat Calian that can hold a sword Black water over Grendel’s mother’s lair: Black water at the Weirwood Grendel’s mother’s cave: Crypts of Winterfell Unlike the show Dustin will finish off Ramsey in the crypts. Ramsey Stark true born of Winterfell eldest son of the eldest son.

[@mappingshaman5280]

@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 This sounds even more batshit than my Ramsay is Azhor Ahai theory. Roose bolton literally says that he conceived ramsay by raping a peasant. Nothing about any dustins (whom hate ramsay, because he killed her nephew).

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

@@mappingshaman5280 Petyr’s motives are first Cat and later protecting his daughter Sansa. Money and station was so he could get the girl, later to put Sansa in the best royal situation possible. He only seems selfish though the eyes of the people we see though. Ashara looked to Stark at the tournament Aerys was at, none of the Stark boys stood for her; fans forget Lyanna was also there. Weirdly even the ones who know she was the Mystery knight. Anyway it’s the same pattern as Lady’s death. King Robert, Ned, Ayra, Lady (wolf) King/Stark men not standing up/Badass Stark girl or woman/Lady King Aerys/All Stark men at Tournament/Lyanna/Ashara Daenerys’ story is based in part in Oedipus. The servants that “stole her” riches (actually King Aegon’s not Viserys riches) now work for Aegon. They returned to the King once the coast was clear. Next book Daenerys will accuse Aegon of being false against the recommendation of Quaithe (Ashara) and Selmy along with Aegon’s crew. This will reveal the Aegon is who he said he is and in fact Daenerys is the bastard (Ashara plus Aerys). Haldon is Howland Reed, Tanner’s wife is Septa Lemore (Selmy will confirm who she is along with Quaithe). All similar to the reveal at Oedipus with his servants and his father’s former servants.

[@schmalzilla1985]

I don't think Mirri's live sacrifice was the entire key to hatching dragons. I would think, that, having the power of dragons would cost something more substantial to Dany. And, there are 3 people who died before the pyre is lit, who arguably have a closer relationship to Dany than the witch. Viserys, Drogo, and her kid. 3 lives for 3 eggs. I don't know if the timing is relevant though, but I think the dragon's names tell more of the story. Wasn't she going to name her kid Rheago? Another thing, is, you could look at those three, as her past self, her present self, and her future self. In her house's words "fire and blood", blood in this instance could mean bloodline, ending her bloodline through fire and blood. And if your conjecture is correct, and the witch is indeed innocent of any wrongdoing towards Dany and Drogo, well that could be symbolic of Dany slaughtering/sacrificing her own innocence. I've also thought that her kid dying was the price for her survival, pregnancy and birthing was pretty risky for many women in the medieval like time period, considering how advanced modern medicine has become, and is hypothesized to become in the future, a miscarriage would be just as deadly, we hear of many women dying in child birth throughout the books, seemingly healthy strong women, death in her dream was on her heels. The witch and Dany knew the price, so then why use the horse? Why not straight up say the kid? Seems roundabout to me, if she was trying to stay in Dany's good graces, or truly help.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Oh I guess I could have made this more clear but I mean Mirri is the key in the sense that the tragedy at Summerhall was almost identical to what Dany did except it was missing a dead priest/priestess/magic user or whatnot, so burning Mirri was what Dany did correctly while other Targaryens before her who tried to resurrect dragons did not.

[@trillionbones89]

I like the three lives for three eggs idea. Mirri was the conduit though.

[@Oscar_Lasco]

Mirri's speech after Khal Drogo's "death" was so good and moving you'd have to be super dense or a complete sc*mbag to think this woman has to burn. Dany would have realized she doesn't deserve the throne if she has to kill innocent people. And in that case, the throne isn't worth it. But Daenarys isn't able to put herself into Mirri's shoes and is convinced the Targaryen's destiny is to rule no matter what.

[@berilsevvalbekret772]

Yes but in the books she is a 13 years old girl who lost her unborn child , her husband her brother. She is as low as this woman was. Anyone who doesn't realize that needs to the books.

[@JediLordNathan]

Mirri commited an act of murder with her hexes' she killed Dany's child with her dark magic, cursed her, AND poisoned Drogo, those are some VERY evil actions and honestly she deserved to be burned alive for her crimes, she was a murderer plain and simple defending her is like defending Tywin Lannister, they both talk of something that seems good but they are evil beneath the surface. Rotten and cruel and just petty with a desire to use her revenge to murder.

[@AnnekeOosterink]

@@JediLordNathan Did she though?

[@violax3735]

​@@JediLordNathan Even if she did (and we don't know that for sure), Drogo and Daenerys attack her village, murder multiple people, rape and enslave the rest - and all that only to get money so that they can go fight Dany's war for the Iron throne and murder *more* people. Given the circumstances, Mirri would be completely justified in killing Drogo for his crimes against her people. With Rhaego, it's more complex - by an "eye for an eye" vengeance-based mentality, his life is fair game; by our standards, he's an innocent. However, there is also the "Stallion who mounts the world" prophecy, which (as Mirri and the Dothraki believe) applies to the unborn Rhaego. In that case, it's a "baby Hitler" scenario - would you not murder him if you had the chance, and even if you wouldn't, would you begrudge those who would? This is all assuming that Mirri poisoned Drogo and killed Rhaego and did both of those things on purpose, when there's plenty of reason to believe otherwise (see: the video above). But even if she did, this is not some great betrayal as Dany would have it - it's a slave taking vengeance on the masters who enslaved her and destroyed her home.

[@JediLordNathan]

@@violax3735 How many times do I have to say to stop judging the actions of people in fantasy universes by the standards of our real modern world, much less given the setting being a medieval one. This kind of behavior is NORMAL in the time period. Also, no I would not kill baby Hitler, even if I would be saving millions of people murdering an infant is EVIL plain and simple and indefensible, you can't give me any reason to justify things of that nature, time travel and kill Hitler as an adult fine but NOT as a child that is evil indefensively so you are snuffing out a human being before they even get the chance to develop their own sense of right and wrong, Rhaegal could have been an evil tyrant but he could just as easily have been a kind and just ruler you don't know for a fact what kind of person he'd have chosen to be he was robbed of that ability. Essentially you are defeating your own arguments by advocating for child murder. And again, what is good, and evil is ALWAYS a relative for the culture and religion, the Dothraki act this way because its the way their society works. Also Dany had zero control over what the Dothraki did with Drogo in charge, she was functionally a sex slave in her own right, she had some authority but zero control over military matters much less cultural traditions, besides her brother basically sold her to get an army to take his throne she is a victim and has only slightly more freedom then Maz Durr. Also stop claiming killing Mirri was murder it was not murder it was executing a criminal that had been convicted by the Dothraki legal system whether or not she was guilty is something you'd be hard pressed to prove either way BUT in the time period people were presumed guilty and fairly often people died trying to prove their innocence ever heard of the sinking test to prove a woman of being a which, if she sinks she's normal but also dead, if she doesn't she's a witch thus soon to die, you are dead either way. But most importantly remember the genre is fantasy meaning that the laws and norms of real life don't necessarily apply and modern standards are completely out of the discussion because not only are you dealing with an entirely different universe with its own established rules and cultures you are dealing with a totally different time period, things we consider evil in our modern world were not viewed as such in Medieval times, hell it really only became the defined way we know it after WWII when said laws were created before that the behavior was the norm thru ought history, the fact of the matter is humans are capable of good and evil equally. And lastly Dany becoming the way she was is straight up SHIT writting and unneeded when they already has an established big bad in the Night King, secondly her becoming a villain did not at all suit her character arc, and lastly she only snapped because of deaths caused by more shitty writing, not having the people she needed to council her and the people that survived were utter cunts only interested in their own self-interests, the only character you could argue was morally good was Jon but everyone else who was a shitty bastard who I might add did some of their own morally evil things: Tyrion murdered his father, Sansa brutally killed Ramsey by throwing him to his own hounds which by the way is a fate worse then being burned alive, Arya is an assassin who murders people on the daily, Bran mind controlled a human being in Hodor frequently and treated him as an expandable sacrifice, Varys was a treacherous bastard who betrayed everyone he worked for as master of whispers, essentially apart from Jon who is basically the only person that has any morally good traits apart from Davos Seaworth everyone else is just as much a scumbag as you think Dany is and she only became that way because of those people choosing to drive her insane and because of bull shit writing that killed people that mattered to her. Plain and simple you are defending the worst written series finale in the history of ANY series and one that had zero reason to be as shit as it was considering they had two years to make the thing and it ended up being a baddly written and baddly made trainwreck with characters acting stupidly in ways that make zero sense and bad decisions abound like putting your artillery outside the walls in front of the army, taking a sea route to King's Landing when the overland route was completely uncontested, and characters acting in ways that completely were contrary to how they behaved previously. Ultimately by defending this your arguements defend the worst written thing in the history of television and something that will sure as hell be retconned by Discovery's execs in a heartbeat. Its about as bad for the franchise as the sequel trilogy was for Star Wars.

[@gerardhunt1890]

Throughout the whole series leading up to the destruction of Kings Landing, she showed signs that underneath that pretty face, a psycho lurked.

[@Daniko2]

Huh. That reminds me of the last thing Dany said to Miri: "It is not your screams I want. Only your life." That statement seems to confirm your argument. Dany burned this woman alive, but specifically stated that the pain and suffering she was about to experience was merely collateral damage. Miri's loss of life was the point. That certainly sounds like something a person would say if punishment was not the goal. That Dany in the book made that statement while personally drenching Miri in oil for burning was unbelievably chilling.

[@berilsevvalbekret772]

in a fire she was ready to die herself as well? I think you people forget that part. Also after all she went through who can blame her? That line can be interprit like this as well 'You will die but I will not take joy of your pain' That is more than most of our main POV characters would have done.

[@Daniko2]

@@berilsevvalbekret772 Strangely, I have no trouble at all blaming someone for burning another person alive, even if she did it while grieving. It's always an awful thing to do, and that is well known in Martin's world, as it does not appear to be a standard method of execution. Anyway, that scene doesn't explain why Dany went into the fire, so we can only assume it was grief rather than an attempt to resurrect dragons. To that point, if all Dany intended was to die as well, why even take the dragon eggs with her? And I'm not sure how "I'm willing to immolate myself" means that burning someone else alive isn't incredibly cruel. Also "but I will not take joy of your pain"? Dany was the one choosing the manner of death. If she thought Dur deserved to die (for what reason again?) but not to suffer, she could have chosen a knife to the throat, beheading, hanging, a firing squad of archers, or pushing her off a cliff. Heck, even stoning would be less appalling. I'm not saying that other characters haven't also been cruel. If burning Dur was an isolated incident, of course it wouldn't necessarily mean Dany was a villain. But that her very first act as a ruler was to personally see to it that someone in her power died in one of the most agonizing ways possible, certainly sets a stage upon which villainy is unsurprising.

[@7Nebulae7]

@@berilsevvalbekret772 But it doesn't make much sense that Dany got on the pyre with the thought that she would die. I think it's quite clear she made the pyre and burned Mirri in order to send Khal Drogo on his final journey AND hatch the dragons. The show had already made it obvious that she was handling heat much better than the average person and she was also obsessed with the eggs. She might not have been totally sure how things would work out, but I'm pretty sure she didn't try to commit suicide.

[@laurafreedlund2899]

Sorry but no, in the book she says the " Thank you for teaching me this lesson" line that they have her say after Xoro Xoan Doxos betrays her on the show. She wanted Mirri's life because as Mirri taught her, only death could pay for life. She was doing magic to hatch the dragons and it was more about that then reveling in Mirri's suffering. Just saying.

[@berilsevvalbekret772]

@@Daniko2 as a muslim let me tell you burning kills you faster. WAY faster. Danny is also the one trying to abolish slavery actually stayed in Mareen to you know try to fix her shortcoming , locking her dragon because one child was cooked to crisp because of them and I love the wine accident because one; we don't know the girl's ages two; there was an actual assasination plan. I don't blame her at all for the ordering of torture. Cruel but effective from time to time. As for Mirri let's look; a 13 years old girl forced to marry a barbarian forced into sexual acts to the point she literally rewires her brain to get some modicom of enjoyment gets pregnant , watched her abusive brother die then the idiot husband gets himself killed. This is after she sees the actual cost of gathering forces. Then she looses her baby in one of the most horrific ways I can imagine so I am not least bit suprised she did what she did. I don't condone it but I understand it. Your precious John Snow pressed a girl's hand into the fire in the books. In that world being too kind without strong allies who will do anything for you will get you killed. This goes for double for the Essos if your city isn't named Braavos.

[@Mj_Jetson]

so... i have trouble understanding Daenerys, and it relates to this issue, the narrative of Daenerys X AGoT. I have no idea what she's thinking in that chapter, tbh. she seems to have a plan, there's the whole "You do not understand" exchange with Jorah, she's just had a bunch of trippy vision/dreams... is her goal really to use Mirri as a human sacrifice? does she think she's hatching dragons? does she expect to survive the pyre? she felt Rhaego kicking her, you'd think she would strongly dispute the whole dragon-baby thing, and ask to see the body... but she doesn't. In practice, we don't know what she's thinking to make the magic ambiguous, so that grrm didn't paint himself into a corner and remove the mystery of exactly how everything works. Its also to not spoil the surprise of dragons hatching (the whole "announced plan never happens" thing). Was Dany crazy and thought this would work (to revive Drogo and/or Rhaego and/or dragons)? was she just being manipulated/puppeted by Quaithe (that makes her a MUCH weaker character)? Did she figure out how blood magic works subconsciously (i doubt it cuz she's never considered doing it again)? its the same kinda thing when she sacks Astapor. The line "It made her wonder how many of them would ever have children" is CHILLING, but did she have a full plan in place (she clearly had no idea how to handle a giant host of freedmen)? what was her reasoning? did she intend to inflict so much carnage? did she care?

[@HillsAliveYT]

I think yes to all of the questions that you're asking specifically because of the Summerhall thing. I mean, the parallels are SO intense that it would seem that Aegon V also figured out how to bring the dragons back, he just didn't do it right. Of course it's possible that he somehow figured it out via research or investigation, but it seems like dragon dreams might be the source. As for Astapor, I think her reasoning there and throughout all of Slaver's Bay has essentially been "I need this thing, what is the shortest or easiest way to get it," and I think one of the most dangerous aspects of her character is essentially that she thinks that the ultimate most important thing is her taking the Iron Throne, and whatever carnage that results from that goal is collateral damage in service of a higher purpose. So basically, I don't think she puts a lot of deep thought into it.

[@andrew-hf9fl]

I would really enjoy hearing her have a discussion with David lightbringer, who does believe Dany is the hero and a genuinely good person

[@oglocop4693]

I agree with the assessment of the Mirri situation but I'd like to point out that that is simply the starting point of this character and her story is about learning what it actually means to be a good ruler and her intentions to be that kind of ruler who exists to protect those who cannot protect themselves seems genuine. You mention several times that this wasn't the last instance of her acting this way, but I can't seem to recall what the other ones were. The turn portrayed in the show makes no sense, because there is no reason she should believe that her burning the city is justified. Whenever she did something brutal or rash before, she believed it was for a good reason I really think her story is moving away from villainy and towards genuine heroism more than the other way around.

[@franciscobenavides4654]

Exactly this, we do see those instances where she is willing to sacrifice other people to gain whatever she wants, but her journey is about figuring out that the only live she should be willing to sacrifice is her own, and that is my prediction for the end. Dont forget that she sees Drogo beyond the wall, which means she will die there and I think she will sacrifice herself there, perhaps by burning the heart tree or something.

[@frankvandorp2059]

I think Dany's journey is a slow and gradual shift from being a mostly heroic character to being a mostly villainous character, and her actions surrounding Mirri are some of the first indications of this. She is still mostly a heroic character in the subsequent books, but I think her failure to rule Meereen as a peaceful, gentle queen is what really pushes her over the edge, as evidenced by her period in the desert at the end of ADWD when she more or less concludes she should become a dragon again and act like a dragon once she returns to Meereen. That also makes me wonder if it's a coincidence or intentional by George that "Mirri" and "Meereen" almost sound the same, as they will prove to have a similar effect on Dany. That seems a logical start of a new journey for her as a brutal and merciless conqueror towards anyone she perceives as an enemy, probably egged on by Tyrion who wants her to treat his family the same way. She'll probably burn the old city of Volantis, which is the area of the city reserved for free people only, and then continue towards Westeros. It's smart how George makes sure that at first, her enemies are slavers, among the most evil people in his world, so we as readers will easily agree with Dany that no punishment could ever be too harsh for them. But once Dany starts to treat other enemies the same way, enemies who aren't nearly as reprehensible and who we might even sympathize with, we as readers will slowly start to figure out we've been cheering for some quite horrendous acts all this time. Then when she arrives at the point of burning King's Landing, which in the books likely will have an actual military objective but is needlessly brutal all the same, we as readers will understand how she got there, even if at that point we don't agree with her anymore, we still will see how a mostly good person like book 1 Daenerys could eventually end up doing such horrible things. About her supposed double standards in killing her slave in book 1 and liberating slaves later, I always thought that her experience with Mirri might actually be the thing that caused Dany to realize the horrors of slavery in the first place. She never spent many thoughts about the institution of slavery in her first chapters, it's at her last chapter in book 1 that Dany suddenly frees all her slaves, right after she learns what Mirri has done to her. My theory is that Mirri's actions and the hurt they caused to Dany made her realize how Mirri herself was turned from a gentle village healer into a slave thirsty for the blood of her masters, because of the brutality she experienced when she was enslaved. That would have driven the point home for Dany how evil and twisted slavery is as an institution.

[@harish123az]

What mercy did Robb show to the watcher who was forced to watch? What mercy did Robb show to a littely boy who had seen his parents killed and eaten by wildlings? What mercy did Ned show to a deserter who had just fled in panic. What mercy did Sansa show to the man she fed alive to dogs? What mercy did Arya show to the kids she baked into a pie and fed to their father and the entire old family she decimated without giving them a chance to surrender? Going but but but Mirri while ignoring all the other main characters is hypocrisy

[@jostockton.]

@@harish123az what do any of those people have to do with Dany's evil actions? Absolutely nothing. Accept that you cheered for the wrong person.

[@harish123az]

@@jostockton. It helps to fully understand the topic before jumping into the discussion. The discussion never was if Dany burning King Landing was evil. The video is claiming that we had signs she was evil all along and uses the examples given. My counter point is that every single protaganist and main character in the show did same things but were cheered P.S. Never was a Dany fan and never will be. She is someone who faces no consequences because of her birth and dragons (unlike characters like Robb, Ned, etc) But its hypocrisy by dumb people I cannot stand the most The show makers screwed up and didnt show the evil turn properly. Accept that and move on

[@icoleman150]

@@harish123az First off, deserting the Night’s Watch is a crime. Whether that man deserted due to panic or what, Ned start legally had to execute him. Also, I don’t recall Ned Stark, Sansa Stark or anyone else being painted as a “savior”. Danaerys is the only one calling herself “Breaker of Chains”

[@harish123az]

@@icoleman150 ​ Come, lets not move the goalposts now. The topic was not about who proclaims themselves savior or what Danerys called herself, its about who showed signs of being a villain before. That's the literal title of the video. And no one says Arya, Sansa, showed signs of being a villain, despite those deeds I outlined

[@OneEyedOneHornedGian]

I was a little disappointed. She may have seen the direct/violent path, but she was always willing to be guided by her friends/advisors. I had hopped that they might be able to help her grow to be a great queen. The Targarion birthright of John Snow seemed a bit of an after thought. If that was going to drag Dany over the edge, then I wish they had let that develop in a way where it seemed like it was a growing development.

[@nidohime6233]

Speaking of the Tragedy of Summerhall, what if they needed to sacrifice the Ghost of High Heart for the ritual, but because at end (maybe she escaped, or someone saved her life instead) she wasn't sacrificed it created the disaster? It gets along with the fan theory about needing the blood of a priest of sorts, and covers some gaps about the character too.

[@arnigeir1597]

Mirri does outright states that Danny's son would have been another bloodthirsty conqueror, and she has nothing left to loose, so her motives to kill Drogo and ruin Daenerys are quite reasonable, given how they are the reason her live is destroyed.

[@laurafreedlund2899]

But all she did was get roasted, making Dany more powerful by being used to hatch the dragons, so maybe she was just fucking stupid.

[@Perceptionreflection]

She explicitly declared her intentions at Qarth.

[@xaidil8459]

For me who only watched the show Daenerys ending was shocking and mostly unbelivable (not fully because even when painting her as a hero the show does have scenes where she's doing questionable stuff) but i talked with my dad who is a hardcore book fan (read them before the show aired and got the whole family to watch the show with him later on) and he told me it made full sense for him and he had lowkey always expected her to do something big and "bad" for her ambitions. It changed my idea of the ending fully, to the point i didn't see it as a bad ending just a rushed and not well executed one.

[@otttimon5654]

Mirri is one of the funniest and most intresting characters in the books. She was one of the best healers and bloodmages in Essos but was in a random Lasarine village doing religion or something. Then she gets captured by Dany and tries to do her best but everyone else does everything she forbid

[@marieblade0613]

Just wanted to say thank you for this video. I never liked Dani however when I felt like she was supposed to be a villain, I became more invested in her story as it all started to make sense in light of Dani's behavior and characterization.

[@StormbornDragon]

i don’t enjoy that you didn’t finish one of danny’s quotes to make her look more villanish, i agree that she’s a complex character but that quote went unfinished. “she knew this was the price for the iron throne…but she would not pay it.” or something similar, danny’s conflict of the heart is wanting to be a comforting mother and a dragon lord conqueror so she doesn’t want to see more girls like her assaulted for her throne.

[@misskate3815]

Mirri symbolized for me the absolute turning point in Danaerys’ journey. Once she burns her alive, there’s no going back, because it’s not something she happened to be there to witness, as a princess, a khaleesi, a powerless woman who happens to operate as a symbol for conquest and power. It’s something she’s DONE, and she can’t escape that. She becomes truly trapped in her path, because turning back means admitting she’s done horrible things. It means changing and atoning, and she can’t face it.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yes I feel the same. I think she could have chosen to be better going forward, but she killed her slave in exchange for dragon power, largely embracing everything that the Valyrians represented in the worst way possible, and what makes it scarier is that she fully justifies it to herself and doesn't see anything wrong with it.

[@misskate3815]

@@HillsAliveYT that’s it. I mean, I do feel for her, she’s just a kid, I don’t want her dead. But at the same time, she never makes the choice to fully confront the things she does and to take responsibility for them. She says she does, but she never truly owns it.

[@HillsAliveYT]

@@misskate3815 Yes exactly, like there are other kids who do some unforgivably fucked up things in my opinion as well, but I can empathize, I understand why they're doing what they're doing, and I hope they turn back. Dany's life is horrifically isolated and depressing, she never learned to do the right things from anyone, and in a large way her entire path is heartbreaking and her choice to take power where she can get it actually makes sense. But I think one of the major questions readers are meant to confront with her is essentially, how long will you let your empathy for her excuse her actions. And obviously I can't say with 100% certainty that Dany won't turn back or try to be better either, but I don't delude myself into believing that D&D just torpedoed GoT's most popular character by a mile because they wanted to and gave zero fucks about completely rewriting the end of ASOIAF, and even within the book story she has done terrible things but keeps making the wrong choices anyway. As you said, she never fully confronts it or owns it, which is not going to lead anywhere good in the long run unless she actively changes.

[@misskate3815]

@@HillsAliveYT the thing about Dany is that she’s basically a lesson on why you shouldn’t give traumatized kids nuclear weapons. Which is a very specific lesson, but still a good one, 😝. Thing is, she goes from hearing only “no”, an abuse victim and child bride, to suddenly hearing only “yes”. She has dragons, and that makes her consistently one of the most powerful people in any given radius. But because she’s still a child who was never given any guidance on developing a real moral compass, she can’t use this power well at all. She has no real empathy, for example, because she was always having to protect herself and concentrate on herself. She has no real sense of responsibility because she was only ever concentrating on surviving her abuse, which coincidentally also left her helpless and dependent on other people’s responsibility. She has no real opportunity to heal from her trauma because she goes from powerless to wielding the most dangerous weapon on the planet. So, in essence, she’s an abused child who suddenly has the ability to destroy her abusers. Who all just happen to be dead. So what can she do with all that rage, selfishness, fear, anger, and hatred, except destroy the world? Even if she doesn’t know that’s what she’s doing.

[@NocturnalMelody]

@@misskate3815 This, exactly. I will always sympathize with the Dany that longs for a home, who longs for a place to belong, who is truly alone. That doesn’t make her less of a villain, albeit a sympathetic one. The quest for the Iron Throne isn’t one of a heroine taking what is rightfully hers and becoming a peaceful ruler, but a traumatized child lashing out at the world that wronged her, causing death and destruction in her path, fueled by vengeance and Targaryen hubris. Her goal are not ones we should cheer for, but ones that will lead to her destruction and the destruction of others.

[@oerthling]

Great video! Thanks. It's refreshing to see this after so many Dany-Superfans complained about the show doing her wrong and her change at Kings Landing being sudden or out of nowhere. She threatened to burn down everybody standing between her and her supposed "right" to the throne from the very beginning. She's not a simple villain and quite an interesting character overall in that she had a shitty childhood, super-shitty brother and had a bad start by being the offspring of a brutal shitty incestuous family tree. All that together with being sold to a warlord by her brother could damage anybody.

[@jdogsful]

the idea that Danny knew that killing Myri would bring dragons to life sounds like a massive stretch, simply because there is no text to indicate it.

[@Margatatials]

Nah, Dany continuously thinks about the eggs telling her to put them in a fire, but the fires she has access to aren't intense enough.

[@AlexisLopez-pb8ms]

This is what pissed me off the most when people were shocked when she goes mad queen in “the bells” episode. Dany showed very violent tendencies and regularly called for sacking entire cities with her dragons. The only thing that stopped her was her advisors. This happened a lot through the series but by season 8 she had no one to advise her and felt she was losing her right to the throne (thanks Jon Snow for not keeping your mouth shut. You obviously didn’t learn anything from Ned Stark) so I would’ve been shocked if Dany didn’t go mad queen.

[@arnigeir1597]

No, it was badly set up, the plot breaks it's back bending over to justify the people of Westeros supporting Cersei, a hated figure, with 0 legitimacy to rule, and had Daenerys make no use of her overwhelming advantage to just take over the second she arrived, because bad advice and concerns her dragons would cause collateral damage... that's completely undercut when she later takes the city with her dragon and 0 collateral, before burning down random civilians. Her cruelty towards her enemy's doesn't equal wanton destruction for no gain.

[@weldezzharris]

@@arnigeir1597 Facts!!! It wasn't the fact she became the mad queen the problem was how it was executed is was pissed people off... The Writing was piss poor and lazy to the point that the story was nonexistent, the plot made no sense, turning her advisors 2 of smartest people in Westeros into idiots giving her all this horrible advice which got 2 of her Dragons killed and both of her army's severely reduced, when all she had to was to take the dragons to the red keep kill Cersei and be done with it as she showed in the bells episode she could've done without collateral damage is just nonsensical and wasn't believable, she got no character development and because the writers were too lazy and wanted to subvert expectations just for the sake of it they completely destroyed her character's legacy and her entire arc was meaningless

[@arnigeir1597]

@@weldezzharris if they wanted to make her massacre believable, she should have said f*ck it after the 1st or 2nd attempt at diplomacy and burned her way to Cersei with no regard for collateral, it's not like dragons are precise, so it would have made the decision to kill her much heavier. having her go evil after a flawless victory and surrender is lazy feeding to the audience.

[@weldezzharris]

@@arnigeir1597 Exactly... foreshadowing means nothing if the execution is poor and doesn't make sense

[@lizd.8655]

As a read the books (after watching S1), I did wonder if Mirri gave the instructions knowing that Drogo wouldn't follow them. I watched a video a long while back called "foreshadowing is not character development". Even if Dany does burn KL in the books, the show failed to convey that act as something she would do through Dany's arc

[@jjh2456]

If you remember what she did in Astapor it was totally within her to do that…and Drogon wasn’t even big then.

[@icoleman150]

Thank you. I swear people act like Danearys was some great savior and paint Muri as some evil witch. She was honest about what would happen.

[@Nihilanth]

there's no hero or villain, this is asoiaf, kid

[@icoleman150]

@@Nihilanth first, don’t call me kid; comes off as patronizing. Second, I know that, but when you literally have someone who then starts calling herself Breaker of Chains, who then describes herself as a liberator of slaves, sounds to me that she believes she is “good” and has some sort of savior complex.

[@Nihilanth]

@@icoleman150 sorry, it's just that, for someone to think that way, i really thought you were a kid. can you please quote wherever she said any of that in the books?!

[@targaryen7029]

@@icoleman150 Nah, the Starks are the only good ones, right? Anyone else are bad.

[@S7-Envy]

she was flat out told that only death could bring life. it's not hard to figure out that the three deaths are the reason for the dragons coming to life

[@datguy3581]

I think there is a lot of great foreshadowing and setup for Dany's future. The problem is not the turn itself but the speed at which is happened. We got the beginning and end of her decent into villainy but we didn't get the in between. Dany was a morally questionable character who somewhat randomly became a full on cartoon villain. Ideally, there would've been much more time dedicated to her decent from the character she was at the beginning of season 8 to the character she was at the end.

[@Sinewmire]

Oh... OH.... So in this ritual, Mirri Maz Duur was to be Nissa Nissa in Dany's Azor Ahai ritual to create Lightbringer, in this case, dragons... and in Aegon's ritual, the Ghost of High Heart or maybe even Jenny of Oldstones was to be Nissa Nissa... and he couldn't do it. Couldn't bring himself to murder, because he was a good man, and the botched ritual caused the fire. Or, as I suspect... maybe he could do it, but Ser Duncan stopped him. That would make Egg a really good parallel for Dany, here - started out as an innocent, then became a hero and died a villain whilst trying to "save" the world. Hm. That makes a lot of sense, actually, with the idea that Azor Ahai was not a good person. I'm sold, I renounce my "dany isn't meant to be the villain" opinion, for now at least. How do you think she "learned" the ritual? Was it suggested to her by the shadows in the tent? I don't think she's fully aware of it. Could time-travelling Bran have made her do it?

[@Sinewmire]

Your analysis has blown my mind, thanks so much!

[@HillsAliveYT]

I think it's actually basically built into her DNA, I think the Targaryens grafted dragon DNA onto their own to give them power over dragons and so essentially her dragon side knew what to do. Like, animals don't need to be told how to reproduce, they just do it, if that makes sense?

[@Sinewmire]

@@HillsAliveYT you think an instinctive knowledge is coded into her DNA? I'm not so sure, there's something mystical going on, what with her dreams of the gemstone Emperor's and the like. I agree with the dragon hybrid stuff.

[@jessicar4934]

Dany was a dreamer. It was implied that she had “dragon dreams” which instructed her

[@Sinewmire]

@@jessicar4934 Oh, sure, there are plenty of references to the Gemstone Emperors, Quaithe and other things in her dreams. I don't recall anything that specific though. Could be Dragon Dreams, could be a dreamwalker. I wonder if all Targaryens get the urge to do this ritual and it's what causes their obsession with fire.

[@joetyrant4713]

Throughout the entire show Dany showed signs of wrath and violence. If they had paid attention then they would have seen the many contradictions in Dany's ideals and reality. First hint was her getting off on Drogo's pledge to her that they would tear down the stone houses and conquer Westeros. She repeated that exact pledge in the last episode. It shows her true nature. It was the same from start to finish. Another big one was when Jorah and Barristan advised her that anytime a city is sacked, innocents die and suffer. She naively said that she would only target her enemies, not the innocents, which shows she didn't care for their words. She was going to take the iron throne no matter what, so the only thing she could do is convince others that she wouldn't harm innocents. All the times she was steered away from violence by her advisors were more hints. The biggest development was when she found out that Jon had a better claim than her and she lost her composure. She had already killed the Tarley's that could have been captured and possibly convinced to help because Sam was on their side. That move made some of her advisors doubt her. The final clue that she was going to burn down KL was when Tyrion explained the bells to her in dragonstone. He asked her if she would accept their surrender after the bells. She did not reply to him and instead looked at greyworm and nodded to him as if to confirm whatever plan they had instead. She planned to burn it down before even showing up at the battle. Why? Because she viewed the citizens who didn't automatically side by her as her enemies. They made their choice and were no longer innocent. Plus she wanted to make an example of KL to the rest of Westeros. Notice how everytime Dany is at her happiest she is either in her relationships, when worshipped, burning something down, or killing her enemies. Sorry but the development was there since season 1 but most people got caught up in her political posturing. Season 8 was still rushed and poorly put together, but the only thing they did right was finish Dany's arc into the tyrant she always was meant to be. She broke the wheel by becoming the wheel and then the aftermath left the throne melted away. She is my favorite character so I was closely watching her development from the beginning and was eagerly waiting for the heel turn.

[@jeffbollen5276]

0:10 - The writing is on the wall in the novels. In Astapor, she sics the Unsullied on every freeborn over the age of eleven.

[@ForeverMCR]

I never comment and this may have already been said, but I wanted to just state the obvious parallels between Dany and Lawrence of Arabia. Both being seen as heroes in the “West.” But upon inspection, they both routinely infiltrated, used, and exploited the people they are credited as “saving,” despite the fact that the only reason they ever saved anyone was to exploit them for their own uses. Lawrence rallied disparate groups together so that he could use them in his proxy war. Dany and Lawrence only care about their people in the way a driver views their car. A tool to be used for a task. With some affection when others view the dynamic, for appearances. V excited to see how this plays out in the books. Also, I remember always dreading the show Dany Chapters but always really liked the book Dany chapters. The book presents a righteous, vengeful, tragically misguided person, whereas the show seemed to revel in the “girlbossification” and blatant exploitation of foreign people and their ways.

[@jessicacharlton7347]

I don't think Daenerys is always the most moral person and I don't have a problem with her becoming more and more of a villain as the series goes on. What I have a problem with is how quick she decided to burn Kings Landing and that she had no reason at all to burn the place she constantly refers to as her home. Also, Daenerys isn't shown to be much more "evil" than most of the other main characters. Most of the characters aren't moral by today's standards.

[@joshridinger3407]

all of the characters are "grey" but she's definitely on the more evil end of the scale. she's at least as evil as joffrey or stannis. many of the characters are, whatever their many flaws, not mass murderers. also, she was clearly planning to burn king's landing at least since the moment she learned jon snow's lineage. it was a practical decision as much as an emotional one. to the unsullied and other slaves of essos, she could offer "freedom". an illusion of freedom, really, but at least an upgrade in their status and dignity. to the common folk of westeros, she could offer nothing (besides bringing a rampaging horde of useless, murderous savages to their homeland in the dead of winter). they're already "free". she would become their absolute monarch, no different from the ones they'd already had. the only card she could play to secure her rule was abject terror. terror, and killing off enough people to perhaps "solve" the food scarcity problems her army had caused.

[@anatoldenevers237]

@@joshridinger3407 You think she's as bad as Joffrey? Joffrey regularly tortures and murders people for no reason other than because he enjoys. He has fun watching people suffer. Also, how was it clear she was planning to burn the city as soon as she learned Jon's lineage? It pretty clearly seemed like a split second emotional decision.

[@anatoldenevers237]

@@joshridinger3407 Also "all of the characters are grey" is not true. There is nothing even remotely grey about Gregor, Ramsay, Joffrey, Tywin or Roose.

[@anbuookami13]

Insightful. Thank you for putting into words the vibe Dany gave me from the start.

[@sarimanne6204]

The problem with this is you can say it about any of the characters, Jaime was always the villain, he pushed bran out the window… Arya was always the villain, she killed and made people into pies… sansa was always the villain she fed Ramsey to the dogs… Jon executed people who disagreed with him… theon was theon… Tyrion killed an innocent woman ect..

[@c.w.8200]

I think the problem is that the TV show was written by two hacks who don't hold the characters they think are the good guys accountable for their actions or can deal with moral ambiguity, they were handed way too complex characters for their writing skills and the result is that they wanted us to cheer for Arya cooking people into pies and condemn Daenerys for a badly executed last minute "madness" episode.

[@targaryen7029]

No, only Targs are evil, don't you see the theme????? /irony obviously

[@sarimanne6204]

@@targaryen7029 ahh yes, except for Jon snow of course because the starks purity neutralises the evilness.. or something..

[@pushista9322]

What is fascinating about ASOIAF is how many layers it has. There's material for earnest research and literary analysis for decades to come. On top of that, researchers will have to look at the typical reactions given by fandom and audience, as they add another sociological layer to the books. Because we see the story via POV perspective the common misconceptions tell us more about our society as we might want to know. Like this incredible Dany's popularity.

[@hankthepatriot3733]

Just because you can sympathize with a character doesn't make them the hero... Well written villains are (in their perspective) the hero of their story)

[@anatoldenevers237]

"Well written villains are (in their perspective) the hero of their story)." This is sometimes true, but not always, there can certainly be well written villains who are simply pure evil to the core. One of the best characters ever written is a literal embodiment of evil.

[@robinronin]

I always believed that villainy was a likely outcome, but that the last season of GOT just rushed a descend into madness. I still feel like the burning of king’s landing should have been handled differently, but now I think maybe it should just have been a more conscious choice rather than the clear hints of madness we get during it. Idk, my thoughts are still developing. You’ve definitely changed my mind about S8 a bit, though! I didn’t think I’d ever look at it in any kind of positive light, but you’ve done it, lol

[@coryphifish2775]

Your ASOIAF insight is so thoughtful and impressive. I will be happy with any content from you, but it'd be amazing to see a video focused on Euron! You mentioned him a little in this one, but I'd love to hear more about what you think of him and his overall role. Thanks for all the clear work you put in!

[@HillsAliveYT]

Thanks! And I'll definitely dig into Euron my favorite unhinged maniac at some point.

[@shivalishankersharma1562]

I actually always found that the most suitable contender to the iron throne was Rob Stark. He always tried to do what is morally right (except when he betrayed his arranged marriage) . He wasn’t tyrannical or mad for power. He felt as the rightful heir. And after him Jon Snow would have been a suitable contender.

[@bellamydoucette9530]

Jon Snow is the righteous heir of the iron throne

[@ruthmeb]

Yup. You'll never convince her Stans, though.

[@anatoldenevers237]

I still disagree with the idea that she was always evil, but yeah her Stans are really insane. I see so many people acting like slaughtering King's Landing was justified and saying that was her right.

[@bexclue3007]

I remember saying (even throughout the early seasons) that Daenerys felt rather self-righteous and therefore wasn't particularly "good" and I remember friends brushing it off bc they know I'm a cynical guy. But well...being cynical and being wrong are two different things

[@MissKashira]

I didn't pick it up from that point upon original watch, but I did pick it up with she got the Unsullied. I was watching it, like "Isn't that like buying a gun and then shooting the clerk in the face so you don't have to pay for it? I mean sure the clerk was a bad person, but that's not why she's killing him. She's killing him so she won't have to pay. Oh noes. She might not be the good guy."

[@gwenjackson8583]

Amen. She wanted the Unsullied army for free. She felt entitled to it….as she feels entitled to everything. The fact that the guy didn’t even suspect she might do this shows just how despicable a move it was. He was an awful person and even he couldn’t fathom that Daenerys would just kill him rather than pay the price she agreed to.

[@Nurarihyon2i3]

I feel like both sides are too extreme here. People say Dany is a villain or that she’s destined to go mad, then they point violent actions as evidence. But really she’s about as violent as Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives, and they weren’t viewed as mad. That said I don’t see her as a Hero either. To me, she’s just another warlord of her time period. Honestly, people who see any characters of ASOIAF as Heroes or Villains clearly hasn’t been getting George’s Message.

[@ericregis3912]

A little bit of tin foil, but I guess that Mirri predicted that Dany will die after having a living child and, as such, see Drogo as he was before on the after life, as most of what she said happened. "When the sun rises west and sets on the east": the Martell sigil is a sun, and Quentyn Martell set sail from Westeros and died on the east, on Meereen. "When the seas go dry": the Dothraki Sea is dying and becoming dry grass. "When the mountains blow in the wind like leaves": maybe is a different mountain, but The Mountain Who Rides is dead, and maybe his zombie body will be to rotten and will undo itself (or maybe he will blow up). So, isn't impossible that she will give birth to a child later down the line (if we get the books) and them she will see Drogo again, but, as his body is just a pile of ash, I don't think that the Others can bring him back as a sick joke, so she probably will die and see Drogo again. Now the question is: she will die as a hero (maybe Nissa Nissa 2.0) or as a villain like in the show?

[@HillsAliveYT]

I actually really like that interpretation! And personally I think Dany will be/pretty much already is a villain, and my interpretation of the whole Azor Ahai-Nissa Nissa thing is not generally "heroic" either, like yes it is presented as a legend of a hero but the notion that some dude who uses his own wife in a ritual sacrifice is heroic does not square with me one bit.

[@ericregis3912]

@@HillsAliveYT Fair enough, but my comparison was as in "heroic sacrifice". But I guess that a better prasing would be "She will die being reguarded as a hero, like Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai in the legends, or she will be reguarded as a villain, like probably will happen with Theon and Jaime, disregarding if justified or not".

[@HillsAliveYT]

@@ericregis3912 Yeah no I gotcha, I just find the assumption that Nissa Nissa or Azor Ahai are traditional "heroes" a bit odd. And obviously I personally subscribe to the notion that Dany is a villain and pretty much always has been, I think she's going to burn King's Landing down and I don't imagine any possible justification for that.

[@ericregis3912]

@@HillsAliveYT While I think that is very likely that Dany will be one of the final villains, we have to remember that King's Landing is a giant bomb because no one removed the wild fire, so she has an excuse until she start to think that she was actually right to blow up everything, as she always shift the blame onto other people

[@ACinemafanatic]

@@ericregis3912 she might have a dark turn especially with Tyrion on her side since he wants kings landing to burn. However jon connington and faegon might turn crazy with the greyscale infection and cersei is paranoid ever since Tyrion killed Tywin and how her uncle kevan is dead and Jamie burnt the letter she sent begging for help. So I can see her being mad there’s a lot of parallels of Cersei and Danys father and how they’re paranoia is a bit similar in a way. Dany however in the books is very lonely and questions herself even misses her brother. But I think her main goal was to bring fire to the others which will be the main threat and that will side track her quest for the throne and she might die in childbirth which would be a terrible ending but would continue the Targaryen legacy

[@nightshadoew436]

I hadn't reread Dany chapters of A Game of Thrones and I hadn't noticed any of this in my original reading as well. I thought Danys, lets say "iffy", actions started with her orders in Astapor. I'm really glad I found this chanel and this vid in particular

[@Kyle7885]

Good video; after I saw the of Game of Thrones I had two thoughts 1) the show did not develop her villainy well & 2) she was always a villain we just empathized with her since we saw the story from her POV

[@emilyrainflower25]

Violence is an intrinsic part of this medieval universe. Killing in and of itself doesn’t make you a master - owning slaves does. Jon executed men for disobeying orders. Every single main character in this show killed - on the battlefield, for revenge, out of rage, because they felt insulted. Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Ned. This is a universe where deserting your post is a punishable by execution. Dany did what Jon did, what Arya did, what every protagonist that wasn’t labelled insane did up until the second last episode of the show. I don’t think it makes sense. I don’t think the writers set her madness up properly at all. It just doesn’t track when you take into consideration the acts of all the other characters. Dany killed the woman who murdered her child and paralyzed her husband. She killed people who tried to kill her, people who threatened to kill her, people that left her for dead or betrayed her. The most extreme thing she did before the last season was killing the masters - aka slave owners responsible for crucifying children. And then there was an entire plot line where she learnt the nuances of the culture in Meereen and how not all masters supported the killing of kids. I just don’t buy it.

[@milkovich9633]

People need to read the books before having an opinion

[@lunahyacinth6335]

The way I interpreted the Mirri Maz Dur blood magic was similar to why you presented but I feel like there was a missing component. Inside the tent, as Mirri is doing the ritual, are the 3 dragon eggs. I feel as if the intent Mirri had was to give the horse’s life force to Drogo but when Jorah brought Dany in to the tent the life energy exchanges changed. Suddenly there are multiple vessels, clearly Rhaego was effected but my theory is that one of the dragon eggs trades life force with him. A second egg switched with Drogo, since the eggs were dormant it would explain the comatose state and his only real response being the warmth from the sun. The third egg doesn’t take but is potentially attuned to all the life forces which would have allowed the last life force switch to occur between it and Mirri in the fire. The number of times we hear about power in the kings blood had me thinking enough of it was being offered to the Lord of Light in that pyre unknowingly that the resurrection / reanimating of the Dragon eggs could easily be explained.

[@Porcelynnn]

A second egg switching with Drogo makes sense since the dragon eggs need heat/fire. Jorah did say that Drogo responded better when he was in the sun. Interesting interpretation!

[@Emma88178]

Thank you! Show viewers conveniently skip over the fact that for every season, since season one, Dany has always had horrible intentions. She has constantly burned people alive simply for not bowing down to her or if she didn't get her way. "Freed" slaves but only when it was convenient for her. And did nothing but act holier than thou and thought she somehow deserved to conquer people. There's a reason most people of color don't like Daenerys. And her "mhysa" scene solidified her racist white savior trope that she had. She was always evil. And people who didn't see that weren't paying attention. It's exactly the same in the books as well.

[@nevafails6185]

Iv been saying this for soo long. In the show version it’s not that surprising. Her whole story was about how she is slowly corrupted chasing the thrown just like everyone else who chased it. And how snow would be the one to take her down being on the opposite path mentally. Snow vs fire. In the books it wouldn’t have made as much sense, but the show ending like this make total sense to me.

[@karenholmes6565]

This video earned you my subscription. I have argued with my sister about whether Dany is a hero or a villain. She hated the ending for all of the wrong reasons. What I have noticed is that book readers ( I am a book reader) have a different idea of Dany than show watchers. I understand why show watchers would be confused about Dany, but the primary reason people do not see Dany's real nature is because most of us agree with choosing violence as a shortcut to obtaining our desires. The story rewards that perspective because people that do not choose violence often end up dead. Think about Ned Start and Jon Snow, both of them chose against violence and they paid for it. The story rewards Dany's violent choices with her successes.

[@lovetobe6118]

Excellent point. She has little by way of diplomacy. Most people, even those that think they believe in anti violence really do justify violence for the characters they love if it is for the right reason. This is found in both history and in the fanbase. Many Germans loved Hitler. He did so much good and was charismatic, but he still chose violence as the means to the end. Even if the end was perceived as good by the Germans.

[@kristinawrites238]

Great analysis. It all goes back to Mirri, and it is an interesting question about Rhaego being stillborn/deformed corrupting the ritual.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yeah I feel like Rhaego has to be a factor because why the hell would Mirri even volunteer to help Drogo if her ultimate plan is to leave him catatonic? Like, he was already dying, so why not let him die and not involve herself at all if she just wants to kill him in every way but name anyway.

[@julianhover5363]

That is honestly the most intelligent essay about the end of game of thrones. Danny HAS to be the villain in the end. Of course the series failed a lot in the final seasons, but not with that. Thank you.

[@thegreenmanofnorwich]

I think a lot of people, especially for the TV show, sort of forget that Drogo is pretty bloody evil, because Jason Momoa is hot. The dothraki enslave people and sell them to horrific fates. They enjoy murdering anyone they just happen to feel like. Danaerys doesn't seem to understand that being a slave to her is the sort of best of a terrible set of possibilities. Rhaego would have been a terrible curse on everyone he encountered. Danaerys does. Not. Care. She's willing to let everyone else pay the price.

[@SuicuneCutie]

My perspective on these characters has always been to sometimes pull out and picture my teenage cousin saying insane things like "I'll die for him" bc it's the promise of a child who hasn't lived. If you've dealt with teens and their romances, or remember your own it helps to bring the characters self importance down.

[@lastjohns9717]

I've thought about this alot, and I still can't 100 percent, say whether Dany is walking a villains path because she is to me a blank canvas colored purely by those she trusts, she hears their tales as though they actually happened as they tell it, she been shown misremembering certain facts as her own truth, it's more than vicarious living (thank you Preston Jacobs), George tricks alot when it comes to this part of Dany's story by adding alot of magic to it, there by coloring the whole thing in "because magic" (we don't see this much magic again in any part of the story, so far) . I honestly can't say if Dany is walking a villains path but I'm fairly certain she is going mad, slowly being driven mad by magic, George has shown us that magic is not wondrously beautiful like in Harry Potter.

[@berilsevvalbekret772]

...what? Are we reading the same books?

[@JotaP1n]

It was a problem of pacing and time. The seeds of Dany turning “evil” were there but her character needed more development to make it “real”. She turns mad because her best friend dies with 2 of her dragons, Cercei is a bitch, Jon is a Targaryen, and the northmen didn’t adore her; you can think “oh ok, that was a lot” but Daenerys faced rejection, lost and struggles before all that so at that point is not believable that these events turned her into a Hitler with a dragon. You need more storytelling to justify that and don’t get me wrong it could have been a great arc for Daenerys but well D&D decided that they got enough and they just wanted to finish the whole thing and enjoying the money I guess.

[@HillsAliveYT]

And unfortunately while the shortened end to GoT bothers me, I don't think a longer series would have solved it because I think D&D likely always had this in mind as the final "big twist" for the show when GRRM isn't really intending for it to be that way.

[@David-ud9ir]

I wonder if they wrote the ending by role playing as the characters in a D&D match

[@7Nebulae7]

​@@HillsAliveYT I think D&D's poor writing skills coupled with their obsession in "subverting expectations" would have made the end of GoT unsatisfying whether or not they had more episodes.

[@FormerTrucker]

All through the series she talked about burning cities down in the matter of speaking. What she did at king's landing was not a surprise.

[@bgm3460]

I hadn't seen it that way, but I think you're right, I think Mirri really wanted to help her survive her new life as a slave, Dany didn't follow her instructions and it went wrong. The fact that he stayed and helped her not only shows that he is innocent, but also that she feels sorry for Dany, she is nothing more than a 13-year-old kid married and raped by a warlord who almost died from pregnancy for which she was not prepared. The fact that she 'confesses', the only 'prove', I think, only confronts Dany's hypocrisy and although in principle she wanted to help, she sees the final result as 'not so bad' if it all gone well.

[@miraafloyd]

The problem with a lot of this line of thinking is that, most of the characters in the books & show are villains and masters by your definitions/standards. Arya routinely chooses violence lol, even more so in the novels. She kills a former brother of the Night’s Watch because he decides to live a new life in Bravoos in the books. On the show she ends House Frey, ending House Frey would mean killing all male heirs, that includes children. Jon does what he thinks is right at the expense of the Brothers of the Night’s Watch which ultimately plays a role in his death (unsure if he’ll be resurrected in the books). Robert routinely put his needs first and closed his eyes to the corruption in his court and bankrupted the Kingdom. Bran uses Hodor, his own direwolf & the siblings in the show then discards the sister like she’s nothing at the end. We could go on & on with just about all of the major characters. None of them are full heroes & few are full villains. Hell, even Varys kills Kevan Lannister in the books who probably was one of the few people who could have brought peace to Westeros post Tywin’s death.