Top 10 Plot Holes in WoW That Have Not Been Addressed Just Yet

[@robertlupa8273]

The fact that half of these are related to Shadowlands should tell you something. *EDIT:* not gonna lie, I kinda regret making this comment. I don't think it deserves this many upvotes.

[@johnj4471]

It tells me that people can’t think.

[@Kekkening]

Considering we had Warlords of Cut content... yeah Shadowlands was just horrible.

[@gmka3920]

retcon these filler expansions!

[@Hwarming]

@@gmka3920 DF should've opened up with us waking up next to that druid stuck in seal form in Dalaran and he says "Man that blow from Sargeras knocked you out cold. What? 4th war? Teldrassil burnt down? Shadowlands? What are you talking about? We just defeated the Legion, and apparently the dragons have sent envoys to the capital cities, you should go check that out"

[@gmka3920]

@@Hwarming I swear!

[@andrewshandle]

Related to the Jailer, kind of anyway, is in SL how the entire system for distribution of Souls in the afterlife not only has a single point of failure (the Arbitor) but if there are _any_ problems for any reason, every soul just gets routed straight to hell. _That_ was the system the First Ones came up with. It'd be like when a customer tried to use an ATM and entered the wrong pin it immediately set fire to all the money in the machine before exploding.

[@josejuanandrade4439]

I don't like to speculate about the FIRST ONES because i see it as big pile of shit that should have never been created by Danuser, since their existance will only cause a billion lot holes and just like Shadowblands, it hurts the game and makes it bleed near to death, BUT, assuming they don't get rectoned and deleted (i hope they do) the easy explanation is that, they are either too arrogant to believe a creation of their can fail, or EVEN WORST, they knew it was gonna happen, left it there so it would happend, because knew we were gonna fix it anyway, making them, simultaneously impossible smart and impossibly stupid! Because that means they could have prevent all this crap to happen, that it posed a risk to their creation, and yet let it happen because they knew we were gonna save it at the very last minute... But if they could foresee it to that degree, why not just prevent it to happen in the 1st place because it still means a lot of the machinery of death got damaged! And if you assume it had to happen because the new way things will work in the Shadowlands, with an Arbiter that is a more compasionate soul (Pelagos) THEN WHY DIDNT THEY DO THAT IN THE 1ST PLACE! This is why Danuser should have never been in charge... Because when you create something, you must think of the consequences of what you created... and he obviously doesnt have the brain for it... The First Ones are a giant can of worms... Trying to come up with a "flawless" being is such a bad bad idea. See, the moment you start speculating about the First Ones, everything fall to pieces. That and the "the titans are robots" are such bad ideas i can't even fathom they made it pass the "hey what if" stage...

[@JohnRengo-h4w]

This isn't even the greatest problem. That is with how Zovaal gets to be the "god" of the Maw, similarly to how the Primus or Denathrius is the leader of their lands. In truth, Zovaal was a prisoner just as much as any other soul sent there, therefore he shouldn't have risen to power. The anima flowing into the Maw would only make the true residents of the place more powerful, but not him. We even see Zovaal being chained down in the CGI trailer. I'd also say the punishment the other Eternal Ones forced upon him was too severe for what he'd actually done, but thats not necessarily a mistake.

[@JohnRengo-h4w]

@@josejuanandrade4439 To me, the explanation to the First Ones' actions seems to be that they'd know all of this will happen, and they actually wanted that. If this is the case, then its just a lazy and convenient explanation from the writers. Basically, the First Ones knew that they couldn't create something perfect or similar, therefore they planned out everything including Zovaal's betrayal, because that, in some way, will prevent the destruction of all existence in the future. And of course, we, the player characters, play a crucial part in their plan. Although its obvious this is just poor writing, Danuser and the others didn't actually write the First Ones as characters in the universe, they are just an idea they toyed with.

[@killerbee.13]

@@josejuanandrade4439 I didn't actually play during Shadowlands, but my understanding is that it's not entirely confirmed if the Maw is even a creation of the first ones, or if it was created specifically to be Zovaal's prison and what it was before was something else entirely. If that is the case, sending all the souls/anima there as a failure state might be fine. The lore of Shadowlands is a mess even aside from this, though.

[@teehasheestower]

Ya know? I played since before TBC and I still forgot that WoW has FREAKn STARSHIPS in it.

[@CaptainAdmiralMango]

Xavius can't get enough of getting beaten by Malfurion, it's secretly his kink.

[@lachlank.8270]

Hurt me more druid daddy

[@phantom0456]

Oh… OHHH, SHAN’DO!!! I’m a Naughty, NAUGHTY BOY!!!

[@ulfgaar7724]

So says the shadow of Xavius!

[@Leeloo-Foxx]

considering how danuser writing went i wouldnt be surprised if thats canon

[@Maljurok]

As part of the Dragonflight questline you are canonically thrusted all the way back in time to the Black Empire, as you make your way to Chromie one of the whispers is literally N'Zoth saying he recognizes who you are and what you will yet be. With the player being given N'Zoth's gift during BFA ,among other things, the prescience of the player has given N'Zoth the knowledge he needs to know exactly which timeline is the one that is going to happen. Unlike Zovaal and Denathrious, N'Zoth IS in fact the true architect of everything. Taking advantage of this valuable insight to steer everything towards his favor not only to make sure everything happens accordingly so this timeline stays its course, but also tricking everyone and everything else into thinking he was just another bumbling Old God. His prophecies from Illganoth are literally just him flexing the fact that he could tell you his exact plans and still come out on top with said plans knowing you can do nothing about it. This actually raises a fun theory to me, what if the cataclysm along with the Twilight Hammer perpetuating the hate between Alliance and Horde was literally all to break Garrosh down until he becomes the Warchief who's actions and choices would lead to the timeline N'Zoth had foresight of rather than the ideal timeline of the Bronze Dragonflight and perhaps even the Light itself.

[@Barsee23]

didn't those actions just lead to him getting killed later on in bfa

[@Maljurok]

That's what makes it so diabolical, he WANTS you to believe that he is gone for good just like the rest of the characters on Azeroth along with most of the player base. If he has foresight of the true timeline where he knows how he is imprisoned and knows his death, can you really tell me he wouldn't come up with contingencies for his and maybe even his brethren's return, contingencies like Xal'atath perhaps? Don't you see it doesn't matter how many times they foil his plans because that is what he wants, he can lose as many battles as he needs, so long as he eventually manipulates everything just right to win the war. I mean who better to weaken the rest of the cosmological forces of the universe than an army of champions who have been known to somehow face impossible odds and win regardless, one just needs to pull the right strings to direct them towards their next target.

[@Pugofkin]

​@@Maljurok "he predicted everything" is a bad excuse for bad writing

[@Mcgowanlol]

@@Pugofkin In the vast majority of cases, yes, but I think this could play out somewhat decently if the writers actually have a long term plan to weave his influence back into the story. I believe the old gods perceive time none linearity (or something like that), if so @Maljurok does have a point. The crux is how does Xal'atath's plans, whatever they truly are, benefit N'Zoth? Him having a vested interest in her plan's to succeed, to at least a point, would explain why he helped her, with the player also factoring in to his plan in a large way. I'm sure I heard something after N'Zoth's death from the devs regarding the gift player received from him (I'm sure it was asked of the devs if it still hold some purpose and they responded cryptically ). That could be his "way back". If the gift is somehow tied to him being able to remanifest then it would make more sense why, after giving the players the choice of his gift, he allows the one thing that can damage and ultimately leads to his "death" to do it's rounds. It's better for everyone to think him defeated and dead while things play out if he indeed can return at some point. In the end we won't be able to say for certain until the light and dark saga is well underway, as I believe Xal'atath's plans are a key part of a possible N'Zoth return.

[@JohnRengo-h4w]

Good wishful thinking, but the sad reality is that we truly defeated N'zoth and all the other Old Gods, permanently. We can theorise about "oh look at how this and that was always just part of the big plan", but then we would be no different than the writers. I mean, they could retcon it in for sure, but it really has to be a retcon in order to work.

[@vorrrgy1966]

So many 'Is he stupid?' memes in that one, The Man would be proud.

[@LeoUchiha812]

Why does the Jonkler?

[@alexkent9745]

As a long time decade plus Priest main, when I first saw the Nazjatar intro cinematic and Nathanos whipping out the dagger, I instantly thought HOWD YOU GET MY DAGGER. Felt very strange seeing it. I made up my own retcon in my head, where after the events of cleansing Sargeras’ sword, since all of its power had been expended my human priest deposited it within the vaults of the Stormwind bank (like all of us did with our artifacts after legion). An elite group of forsaken spies were sent by Sylvanas to retrieve the dagger, and that is how Nathanos had it in his possession to open the way to Nazjatar. Idk. Made WAY more sense to me than the actual story🤣

[@michaelpettersson4919]

And to cover up the theft they left behind a fake one.

[@viktorgabriel2554]

also the fact that the dagger was totally drained of all of its power went over peoples heads

[@LordFakeGodz]

In BFA, if you're a priest that have Xalatath, you actually have it. So if you have it on the bank, you have to take it out from the bank, instead of looting it like other players. You then bring it to Crucible of Storm and forced to leave it there, where Horde players (or canonically, Sylvanas elite agents) retrive it, then give it to Sylvanas then to Nathanos, then to Azshara then to Wrathion

[@LordFakeGodz]

​@@viktorgabriel2554 Xalatath is more or less "alive", so she can just stop the blade from using all of it's energy when we use them.

[@konstantinkunz2256]

The official lore is because the weapon whas drained in Silithus so your character threw the weapon away like an outdated green weapon.

[@Aurora-313]

Thing is for the DK, I distinctly recall there was an achievement for not killing any dragons when you got your mount. Because I knew the lore, I went out of my way to avoid and kite as much as I could to get what I wanted. I wish there were more dialogue to demonstrate whether or not you killed indiscriminately or did a smash'n'grab.

[@Dayz3O6]

There was an achievement for killing ALL the dragons and it was removed later on.

[@daleodorito]

Man, we have been killing dragons forever. Even in dragonfligth there are protodrakes on the waking shores that you can kill with no repercusion whatsoever. Aren't these supposed to be potentially as sentient as the aspects themselves? (cause they started as protodrakes). Like our characters are just mercenaries that get told to kill something for a reward, we are not heroes at all. Pretty sure we are actually one of the most souless an villanous kind of people ever seen in videogames. We just do whatever for any amout of personal gain.

[@iceman3317]

@@daleodorito Only specific proto drakes are intelligent. Like the Aspects, like Galakrond, and like the Encarnets. But no, not all proto drakes are intelligent. They might have some, but they were still evil. They attacked us when we killed them. They were attacking the camp. Even the Dracythr doesn't see Proto Drakes as intelligent. If you are worried about them being sentient, then what about gnolls, kobalds, murlocs, harpies, and so many more sentient beings we kill? It is because they are all a threat.

[@Leeloo-Foxx]

@@daleodorito so you wouldnt kill a gnoll because they are sentient even though gnolls have been shown countless times to be a massive threat to any civilization they crop up near? ok buddy.

[@CadaverJunky8]

None of the Shadowlands plot holes really matter, since that expansion isn't canon. It's okay guys.

[@samwellcheck562]

It's great when writing is so terrible you actually have to completely ignore a whole main story just so the very foundations of THE CONCEPT OF DEATH can still be remotely comprehensible in the universe.

[@MrOrcshaman]

Unfortunately they solidified it with the inclusion of Amirdrassil, since its story is connected to Ardenweald and the dead night elves, and the living night elves getting their immortality back. So it can't be fully ignored, shadowlands taint will last

[@Syphaxis]

@@MrOrcshaman Thankfully, nothing after Burning Crusade is canon for me, because that's when I stopped playing.

[@SH4D0W0733]

@@Syphaxis So your Gul'dan is still a calculating malicious power hungry schemer, and not a bullied kid who one day went to school with a [Fel magic] and killed his clan because they were mean to him?

[@ASNS117Zero]

@@MrOrcshaman That'd be super easy to retcon, to be fair.

[@Maliz_Ultraviolet_Lantern]

Didn’t the Vindicaar burn out its weapons when it attacked Antorus? Pretty sure this exact thing is claimed

[@godlygamer911]

It did, he's just dumb

[@Boxkar24]

Correct. I feel the actual plot hole is that it could fly all the way to Argus, without the portal, and back in such a short period of time.

[@godlygamer911]

@@Boxkar24 ... That's not a plot hole either, it's never been established how fast it is

[@Hypnotically_Caucasian]

The draenei just attacked Anotorius for it's fossil fuels to run the Vindicaaar Sargeras did nothing wrong he was a gud boi

[@Silly_Illidan]

Yes.... With the loss of Argus the unmaker, no new source of argunite exists and so the vindicaar only has enough of it to power it's flight around azeroth and basic operations...but doesn't have enough to use it's weapon systems.... Convenient cuz now it's a racial capital of sorts

[@tatalsaba]

The Vindicar situation always bothered me, the Alliance are so exceptionally powerful it's insane, and the writers doesn't seem to realise just how uneven the faction conflict was. The Alliance didn't just underutilise the Vindicar, they could have enlisted the Lich King: Bolvar Fordragon, one of the most famous Alliance generals, who literally stepped up to help against the Legion (imagine Thoras Trollbane in Arathi!), and then there's the ton of power they have from simple logistics (Dark Iron drill machines, Void Elf portals, ), really, the War should have been a breeze reardless of how ruthless the Horde could be.

[@iceman3317]

They have goblins which are one of the few races who haven't had a genocidal incident. They equal both gnomes and dark irons. Goblins have all of these things. Nightborne have portals as well. Bolvar was also not going to side with one or the others. In fact, he was probably using both to fuel his own army, which is why we see DK Allied Races. The Vindicar is the only things that unbalanced the faction war. Which is why they don't use it. And simply because it is Alliance, they see it as a weapon of mass destruction, which they refuse to use, because it would be no different than the mana bomb. The Alliance aren't out to completely root out the Horde. They have been defending themselves since Cata. And because they all have friends on the opposite side.

[@beastmaster0934]

@@iceman3317 The fact Goblins have not had a genocidal incident is really weird, considering now nucking futs those little green bastards are.

[@galten7361]

@iceman3317 Meanwhile the Alliance repeatedly engage in acts against the Horde like when Varian declared war at the Undercity or bombing Taurajo or killing Goblin workers.

[@Leeloo-Foxx]

@@beastmaster0934 honestly though, if gallywix didnt get his rolls kicked in during shadowlands he wouldve been the first to do so

[@cabrondemente1]

​@@iceman3317 but they have had genocidal incidents, first by deathwing destroying their island and then the alliance attacking the survivors (unprovoked).

[@LilianOrchard]

Actually DKs getting away with War Crimes isn't a notable plot hole. Every character not named "Sylvanas Windrunner" gets away with their war crimes.

[@KingOfMilfgaard]

she literally did tho, if anything Garrosh is the only one who gets put on trial and then hunted like a dog and killed

[@censuur12]

@@KingOfMilfgaard Kind of nuts they invented a whole-ass rule of law for his sake and after getting nonsensically acquitted he runs off to a (now much better) different timeline and fucks it up by starting another random war nobody asked for. Garrosh will always be the biggest clown in Warcraft, there is just no topping how much of a joke his character is.

[@khululyp]

​@@censuur12I think he is a good character, from the beginning in Outland it is established he does no know how to lead, it took Thrall a long time to see garrosh for what he really was, a childish raging fool.

[@censuur12]

@@khululyp He has like a dozen different writers who all did a completely different take on the character. Which Garrosh did you like? The somewhat sympathetic distraught Outland version? The childish imbecile yet somehow absurdly overconfident Northrend version or did you prefer the ? The moronic hypocrite Stonetalon version? The only consistent thread is his inconsistency. He is overwhelmingly obsessed with this idea of a "Horde" he was barely ever a part of while utterly abandoning his own people who had suffered him at his lowest point. If him not knowing how to lead was actually what the writing was meant to convey they did a terrible job of it, as everyone around him seems to act as though he is capable leadership material, but that never once manifests in the actual story. As it stands it seems almost like an oversight that they forgot to make him even a fraction as competent as everyone around him acted he was.

[@khululyp]

@@censuur12 I think people believed more in Thralls judgement than his actual capability to lead.

[@Keryusupercoologuy]

Speaking of abandoned WoD plot points, remember those Botani that escaped into the Barrens during the Mag'har Orc questline? Cause Blizzard sure doesn't seem to

[@iceman3317]

It wasn't just Botani, but saberon and arrakkoa as well. Not to mention they could have easily crossed over during the First War because the portal was wide open. The Dark Portal went unguarded for many years when the Horde crossed over, the Botani and saberon could have easily crossed over during that time as well.

[@beastmaster0934]

@@iceman3317 On one hand, the Botani might help the Barrens become not so…barren. Although they’ll probably enslave folks crossing into their turf. The Arrakoa might keep to themselves for the most part, not bothering nobody. The Saberon will probably be an issue though, attacking caravans and travelers and stuff. Not to mention the Goren that also crossed into Azeroth. Those little buggers are gonna be an issue too.

[@lorewalkermaohao4602]

​@@iceman3317 in the prime timeline, the horde had managed to kill all the botani and much of all other species were either killed or warped by the fel magics they unleashed. This happened before the dark portal was built. The birds specifically flocked to their homeland to avoid the Horde and when the world was torn apart the process killed all but the exiles.

[@origami83]

It is very fitting that the floor of zovaals bossfight is filled with literal plotholes.

[@Tue_]

What do you mean … that somehow a hidden place he didnt have access to before suddenly is linked to northrend? Coincidents can happen.

[@Tibainium]

I like how all these retcons came from newer expansions and also from Danuser.

[@josejuanandrade4439]

Thank Elune he "left".... That man had no business leading the Warcraft Lore.

[@Fabriciod_Crv]

@@josejuanandrade4439he actually thought GoT Season 8 was good, let that sink in

[@VermilionWake]

shhh lets not mention how he got handled afrasiabis lore especially the bit when afrasiabi gotten hellbent on the following and wrote this: Kill Sylvanas in BFA (at a time where she was one of the most favorite characters to the players still), the war causing the alliance to lose much more than teldrasill and I quote "The Goblins Megacannon is going to finally see some action" and much much much more. I am not saying Danuser is not to be blamed at all but he got pushed into a massive role in a bad time too, hell, shadowlands got 1/3th'd of it scrapped aswell and not for lore reasons but generally blizzards decision to ditch the expansion and move on to the next. I mean DF is more Danuser than anything out there and it is what it is

[@Fabriciod_Crv]

@@VermilionWake i was willing to give Danuser the benefit of the doubt, but after seeing how DF turned out, i was convinced the dude was just not good at writting.

[@VermilionWake]

​@@Fabriciod_CrvI agree to an extent. I think he may do well in a smaller role for the lore. Something akin to the stay awhile and listen. Xal'atath and N'zoth bits are his works I think he did well at it.

[@dimvots6729]

Catapults with 10 killometers range and azurite bombs that can destroy an Island size tree in 1 min ...........

[@LordMrF]

Well, that one was explained in the story " A good war" that the catapults were manned by Fire mages to enchant and magnified its power

[@cabrondemente1]

​@@LordMrFnot buying it, mages have a 40 yd range

[@Banana_Zach]

@@cabrondemente1 yea, but if a fire mage stands on top of another mage it doubles

[@saidolof-ors6626]

​@@Banana_Zachyou would need a tower of eight mages to get to 10 kilometres

[@gmradio2436]

The Jailer is not the antagonist of Shadow Lands, he is the victim ... Of the writers.

[@TheMrAmras]

The jailer is not the antagonist, he is the comic relief

[@baalslayer03]

He’s not the antagonist, the primus is

[@miriamweller812]

Jailer is a very well written antagonist, because he's very realistic and exactly how a manipulator works. You crybabies just want your usual anime and bad Hollywood movie bullshit, with some fancy cartoon villain with a stupid plan he loves to tell others. Zovaal is the antagonist, because he does not care about the life of mortals at all. That's it. And that's how evil works. Evil is all about not caring what your deeds do to others. Evil is not "BWUAHAHAHAHA! ME EVUL! ME GOT EVUL PLAN ABOUT WASTING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO STEAL ALL THE COOKIES WORTH SOME THOUSAND DOLLARS! BWUAHAHAHAHA! EVUL!" But that's exactly the garbage you would cheer for. You can't handle good writing, you WANT shit writing.

[@miriamweller812]

@@baalslayer03 Oh, yes, indeed, overall the Primus stays the extreme questionable one until the end and it would be no surprise if this comes up again. Afterall: HE created domination magic and distorted Zovaal. Denathrious' role is also something that is obviously not yet revealed to the fullest. The other two are likely just two "good girls" who just do their job and that's it, so neither good nor bad, more acting like the machines (they kind of are).

[@gmradio2436]

@@miriamweller812 What are you on about? Your response is poorly written if you are trying to discuss story structure and tropes. Fisrt big issue, being an antagonist does not require being evil or a villain. Only that the character be in opposition to the protagonist. Protagonist and antagonist being narrative roles, not moral alignments. Thus you can have villain protagonist and heroic antagonist. If you want to get technical, then yes, he is an antagonist as he is a force the players fight. That was not funny for a meta joke though. Second, I said nothing on Zovaal's character. His character can not be saved from bad writing of the Silvanas arc. I did say he was a victim, which is true. His primary use is more plot device than character. Your going out of your way pick a fight. Sad thing is you agree with me. You just don't realize it.

[@somerandominternetdweller]

It’s possible Smolderon, was furthering his rule and laid low. In case he might get assassinated, until he fully secured his rule.

[@PrimusValsar]

If I remember, the fireland was still in a civil "fire" war, and even when he was the firelord at the end of the questline. He still needed to find allies and show who is the new boss.

[@evilsizer4428]

Arthas: "I'm the Lich King and I want to eradicate all life." Terenas: "Without a Lich King, the undead will eradicate all life!" So the only thing stopping Arthas' plan...was Arthas?

[@laertesindeed]

Arthas was not the Lich King. Arthas was a body for the Lich King to ride around in like a radio controlled car. The Lich King was Ner'zhul, and he says so in Wrath. Which is why, when we defeat the lich king at the top of ICC, we see the human Arthas feeling panic and wondering if his torture is over.

[@evilsizer4428]

@@laertesindeed in one of the books they said as soon as Arthas placed the helmet on his head he had a mental duel with Nerzhul and became the dominant mind. I personally don't like that, but that's what is supposedly canon. Also regardless of whether its Arthas or Nerzhul at the helm, my point remains: the only thing stopping the Lich King's goal of eradicating life is the existence of the Lich King.

[@laertesindeed]

@@evilsizer4428 Firstly, books outside the game are not canon. Chris Metzen literally set the standard back in 2011 at blizzcon where he settled the fact that books outside the game are "NOT CANON". Then he finished his sentence in answer to the questioner that sometimes he and the wow devs might look at something from one of those non canon books where they like a mood or a statement or a character....and they might put it into the game. He explained that what they put into the game in that way is canon.... and "NOT" anything else in the books where they might have seen that character or mood or statement that they liked. The game itself establishes and proves that Arthas was never the lich king, it was always Ner'zhul and Arthas was the body that he stole so he could move around. Objectively, irrefutably, undeniably. That's it. I didn't say anything about your other claim. I have no dog in that race, so to speak. I'm not convinced his goal was to eradicate life, so much as eradicating life was a helpful method toward his goals of scourge dominance.

[@jordanread5829]

@@laertesindeedBooks are considered canon. The only ones that are not are the RPG books. Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects, hell even the Traveler series are canon. It was the RPG books that Metzen was referring to in Blizzcon 2011. Not the books in general.

[@laertesindeed]

@@jordanread5829 False. The books are not canon, he specifically said so. There is a reason that Metzen had to write a different kind of forward for the chronicles books to explain how he was treating them in contrast to his earlier rule.

[@wombatpandaa9774]

I'm pretty sure that the Man'Ari unlock quest chain shows why the Vindicaar hasn't been used since Legion - because the Army of the Light is more allied with the Alliance rather than explicitly part of it, and some Lightforged Draenei just jump ship (heh) and join fully. Regardless of the exact reason, it seems that the Vindicaar is occupied with maintaining a foothold on Argus and is under the control of the Broken Draenei there. This still probably shouldn't have stopped Anduin from at least considering using it in BfA, but perhaps we can reconcile it with a headcanon that he consulted with relevant people and decided it wasn't worth potentially giving up Argus entirely to use this weapon in the war. And #2 is admittedly weird, but it's made very clear in Exploring Azeroth: Northrend that the Scourge are being handled just fine and aren't actually rampaging across Azeroth. They appear to be going through the motions of what they were doing before Bolvar, actually. I don't know if this can be called a plothole because it's been addressed, with what I'd say is probably a retcon. Though of course, we'll have to wait until something in game confirms this, because we know that books are sometimes ignored or retconned themselves.

[@Larow17]

About your second point: So it IS a plothole, since there must not always be a lich king. Without him undead will rampage for a weekend or so (start of the shadowlands) but it is not some world ending event, and can be managed by DKs alone. It seems that we could have ended the scourge menance when we were still in a swing of things at the end of WotLK. Tbh, I always thought that this whole thing was a bit silly. If one guys controls all of the Scourge, can't he just march them into fire?

[@Shovelchicken]

The army of the light is led by turalyon who is the current regent of stormwind. I’m not sure how much more “part of the alliance” you can get.

[@galten7361]

@wombatpandaa9774 The Alliance and Horde just bloat out the rest of the setting with Stormwind/Humies being used too much.

[@galten7361]

@Larow17 WC3 already showed what would happen when Ner'zhul loses control (The Forsaken happen and resident Nathrezim seize control over all available Undead). What WotLK did was a retcon that was just pulling from Pirates of the Caribbean and also trying to make the Scourge more like a zombie apocalypse scenario.

[@literallypuni4091]

Yrel standing alongside Hellscream as he triumphantly proclaimed Draenor is free. Horde druids being okay with burning the World Tree, and then leading the war against the Alliance.

[@Majorfuckinghero]

Them Tauren must really have been questioning their decision to let the Orcs into their lands ever since Warcraft 3 on at least a dusin occasions by now xD Future expansion WoW: Make Kalimdor Great Again "Kick out all the orcs, build a wall and make the Alliance pay for it!"

[@allhailderpfestor4839]

I think they would have been on the list if he went #1. Fucking entire shadowland instead of letting it gobble half of the list

[@Servellion]

Teldrassil was made as a vain attempt by Night Elves to regain their immortality. The tree itself wasn't naturally grown and it's purpose was inherently greedy.

[@Majorfuckinghero]

@@Servellion So therefore burning a world tree is okay, and genocide is totally cool. Horde copeium at maximum levels

[@iceman3317]

The Horde did not agree with the burning of the world tree though. That was something that even Nathanos didn't like. Nathanos was an ass hole, but if he had the balls to stand up to Sylvanis, he probably would have stopped a lot of stuff.

[@mentalkitty789]

Another thing related to the overgrowth is that after getting the maghar into the horde a bunch of botenai also run off towards the barrens. So they could get into some shenanigans?

[@kyleellis1825]

Should have had them in a wailing caverns revamp.

[@beastmaster0934]

Along with Saberon, Arrokoa, and Goren apparently. So those four are gonna be a big issue in the future.

[@Augusto2]

Regarding the everbloom, at the end of the Mag´ar recruitment quest you can see various natives from draenor coming through the portal along with the player (or rather right after), among those there are some plant people who quickly ran away and dissapear into Kalimdor

[@godlygamer911]

The nerubian one may or may not be a plot hole. Don't forget, in midnight we are dealing with them a lot, we could learn something massive. It wouldn't surprise me at all that these highly intelligent bugs found a way to peer into the wrong of the dead, especially considering where they were living under and Odin had already done the same.

[@johnnyd1988]

And also in The War Within.

[@gHGhej]

Too many expansions after the questions are raised are plot holes not loose threads 😂

[@johnnyd1988]

@@gHGhej thats still true yep

[@JohnRengo-h4w]

It was obviously an error from the creator team, I don't think there is any denying that. But even though its a mistake, yes, they can still explain it with some shenanigans. Comparing them to an actual titan-keeper is a bit too much though, just because Odin could do it, doesn't mean the Nerubians could.

[@godlygamer911]

@@JohnRengo-h4w no, you just think it is. You literally have no way of knowing what direction things are going in. There is no reason to think that nerubians couldn't have found Titan keeper tech or notes or something else in order to peer into the shadowlands.

[@LobbeWOW]

Plot holes is one thing, bad writing is another - I'm looking at you, Sylvanas..

[@Kaotiqua]

My personal biggest plot hole is Pandaria. The Pandarens blame the rise of the Sha on the fact that the Horde and Alliance brought war to their shores... except, the Hozen and the Jinyu were _already_ at war, and the Mogu were already awake and plotting badness, before any of the player races set foot there.

[@dimitrijansen9872]

I always told myself that the war between horde and alliance held more emotions with is what the sha reacts to, than the war between jinyu and hozen.

[@Kaotiqua]

@@dimitrijansen9872 I've heard something like that suggested, but I'm just not buying it. Maybe as a soft excuse for suspension of disbelief. But the Mogu were fully a part of the origin of the Sha, so that's harder to write off.

[@varlak9061]

@@dimitrijansen9872 i would agree with that with a bigger continent spanning war of multiple races that have strong emotions about the other would give more of a effect, then you include the hozen/jinyu war and the mogu. if it was just the races of pandarea the sha would probably still appear but slower and weaker then when we got there they just violently exploded out chaotically

[@Kaotiqua]

@@varlak9061 agreed... but the expac made it seem as if it was entirely on us.

[@varlak9061]

@@Kaotiqua oh definitely but can you blame the natives for blaming us for everything going the wrong the minute our giant war appears on their shores

[@TheCrazyDcoolest]

The one that always gets me was in WoD after blizzard had confirmed the burning legion transcends timelines which basically ment that mannaroth followed through with the same exact plan as last time (except the horde on alternate draenor had not started attacking draenei yet) offered them demon blood and then was killed by the same orc that killed him last time.

[@DaWoWzer]

I wish they would have done more with the other races of Draenor escaping Yrel through the portal in the Mag'har recruitment questline

[@areawen8266]

Perhaps they will

[@Shiirow]

I wish they hadnt character assassinated Yrel just to make an excuse for draenor orcs on the horde.

[@laertesindeed]

@DaWoWzer That entire scenario is a plot hole...... which so many people do not understand. That scenario literally explains that the mag'har who come through are evil and destroying the planet......and Yrel was ethically correct and asking them to stop destroying the planet. Yet somehow many players didn't bother reading anything there and all of a sudden pretend that Yrel is bad. They even make up false claims about somebody forcing light.... when that never happened. I blame the liar bellular for repeating that false claim.

[@areawen8266]

@@laertesindeed Your career must be a jehovah witness

[@laertesindeed]

@@areawen8266 Totally opposite.

[@jcs7206]

I'm pretty sure it's okay for the Legion if you use void stuff as long as it furthers the overall cause. I mean Gul'dan literally summoned Xhul'horac and manipulated him into opening portals for legion troops.

[@Leeloo-Foxx]

the legion literally has a bunch of enslaved voidwalkers on the broken shore as well

[@DIEGhostfish]

14:44 I had assumed Smoulderon would still be missing in DF as an explanaton for why the elementals are an enemy,

[@pnjdumal]

For me one of the biggest plot holes created by SL is Lothraxion. HOW THE F*CK did no one saw he was not a demon but a being from the shadowlands ? The fact that not only the Legion or the void but also the light, who LITTERALY fused with him, did not see he was not what he is claiming to be is baffling to me...

[@johnj4471]

They’re literally master deceivers

[@josejuanandrade4439]

Just a detail. The light did NOT fuse with him. The light transforms beings. He was transformed by the light... is more of a "boost" if you will. He lightforged pretty much get boosted in endurance, strenght, etc. Also DEMONS in Warcraft are pretty much "aliens". The "demons" you know, are not inhabitants from the realm of Chaos. They are just species from the deepest regions of the Nether. The Pit Lords are the beings that can be considered the actual demons, they and the imps and the succubus. They are pretty much just creatures from the Nether. The Eredar are Draenei infused with Fel by Sargeras, and the Nathrezim were created in the Shadowlands. For a being like Sargeras i am sure there was no distinction between a Nathrezim from a Pit Lord. And with the Light, i don't think in the end they do give a lot of thought either... i mean, the light used Necromancy to bring back a Human to "life"... well more to undead realy... Something that we had only seen the power of DEATH do... Soooooo yeah....

[@alihorda]

Well apparently they are great spies

[@vjcn9378]

Furthermore… why have we done literally nothing about it? 💀

[@johnj4471]

@@vjcn9378 finding in game books is not necessarily canon

[@dancieta]

26:46 Plot Twist: There are higher beings above the Titans which are the Overwatch characters playing a DnD clone.

[@LordyT34]

As a Death Knight who rps as a fallen Paladin, I couldn't help but think the same thing when doing the "war crimes" quests. Like it would be nice if your character could at least object to things if you feel they wouldn't agree with them

[@R3ga1]

Something thats been bugging me, at the end of the maghar allied questline you see saberon and the overgrowth druids also ventured through the portal with you and you can see them run towards to the barrens and nothings been done with that.

[@powertrip8676]

Shadowlands never happened

[@ballsofsalsa01]

Shadowlands is better de dragon fly

[@zabuza3663]

Shadowlands was an awesome expansion

[@ballsofsalsa01]

@@zabuza3663 it was more fun than Dragonflight AP but not mandatory Borrowed power that could be progressed by oneself ZM / Korthia better than Caverns and Emerald But BFA was better than both

[@bowdyevans3171]

Lol that's how I deal with the plot holes and horrible writing decisions made in that expansion as well. I just don't view Shadowlands as canon. It had some great zones and the covenants were cool, but the lore and world building was an absolute MESS!

[@fireteaJK]

It was a fun expansion, but the lore ramifications of it are horrendous

[@Silly_Illidan]

Incarnates: we reject the arcane blessings of the titans...we rather become more attuned to the elements... Also farrak the incarnate: you, firelord....im your captain now

[@Adam-jn7nc]

Consuming shadowflame's made him part void and void also control the elements

[@Minerva_Sparkle]

To be fair it wasn't like that. I think Fyrakk merely opened the way for Smolderon to burn shit and he gladly went with it. In the raid Smolderon seems to think he's the one bossing Fyrakk around, which he painfully learns is false.

[@TheClandestineFox]

I think they sort of vaguely elaborated on it during MoP, but generally speaking my favorite plot hole was when Cataclysm dropped and they introduced Worgen Death Knights. At face value there's nothing too complex about that, but there are 2 core plot issues with it: 1. The alliance didn't have worgen troops during the Northrend campaign against Arthas, and the player Death Knights at this time were all raised to serve in Arthas's army. 2. Anyone who's ever played the Worgen starting zone battle for Gilneas scenario, or conversely the Forsaken quests in the area to experience the battle from the other side's perspective, will know that the ENTIRE point of the Gilneas people intentionally succumbing to the Worgen curse was because anyone infected with the worgen curse was unable to be raised in undeath. But then here we are; a Worgen Death Knight. Honestly I think Blizzard's retcon answer to this was kind of lazy, it was something like, "Well the Valkyr that were working for Sylvanas weren't powerful enough to raise Worgen-cursed corpses from the dead, but Frostmourne was!" or something. Basically Arthas just happened to have stronger, more powerful necromantic powers from his magical lich gear than the literal spirit Valkyries. For reasons.

[@merabledawnspark5827]

The Jailer one was the thing that broke me x.x SL, for me, was already a really bad expansion and just got depressed playing it (having to quit the game entirely on the second patch), but still tried to keep up with the lore and… the Jailer… Is a massive let down. He’s suppose to be one that orchestrated everything? I am having a REALLY hard time believing that. He’s an idiot. He left the Waystone There unguarded, he let us go when he controlled us, he let SYLVANAS live, the one that KNOWS his plans, and worst of all, he didn’t inform us jack until we took him down in the expansion. Like… He’s one of the worst big villains I’ve ever seen. He also tainted everything WC3 related since, apparently, all connected to him that, apparently, there’s something even worse what is to come (even though, nothing really happened since we were on break for five years and been riding dragons) Getting back to the info, you mean to tell me that he knows what happened with Arthas and Sylvanas who we were, but he never even talked to us? Like, he can squash us like a bug in the beginning, but imagine him talking and informing you what’s really going on despite the horror we’re seeing? Why did he do all of this in the first place? Questioning our motives for immediately allying with the others. He could of been a manipulator himself, but he was none of that (outside from Sylvanas, which isn’t saying much).

[@F14thunderhawk]

SL has the Fully Rendered Cinematic and Afterlives: Bastion. literally the rest of it is a list of Event Milestones and noncanon. and not because it damages the concept of Death but because the writing is just terrible.

[@Dayz3O6]

For the DK one during the SL pre patch event when the zombie plague happen, you can talk to the Agent dawn knights and they will mention " Do not think I have forgotten what the Knights of the Ebon Blade attempted at Light's Hope Chapel. We may not be enemies, but neither are we allies." Also during the Paladin Ashbringer skin quest where you go to the DK order hall, paladin mention that the DK owes them for attacking. They kinda forgive but still hold some resentment for DK.

[@kayrius]

Some open questions: 1 - why is the jailer in chains? Jailers aren't the ones who guards the locked ones? 2 - if we are the maw walker that can come in and go out of the maw, why can Sylvanas do it as well? Is she another maw walker from the prophecies? 3 - how can 1 branch of elves (that evolved from trolls) evolve continuously into more and more elves races and, yet, the trolls that stuck on troll evolution line didn't split into new races? 4 - why undeads raised by conventional means (scourge and forsaken shenanigans) have their corpses rotten and those raised by the light don't?

[@Majorfuckinghero]

To answer your 3rd question, the trolls that transformed into elves, are only the ones that found/was exposed to the well of eternity. The other trolls didn't want anything to do with it, and so remained trolls. edit: Oh and the elves that transformed from other elves, did so by continuing the practice of magic, and creating the Sunwell etc. Where as Night Elves decided to drop magic and go full in on druidism, until recent history.

[@samwellcheck562]

1/2- If you're going to start applying logic to Shadowlands you're never going to find a stopping point for the nonsense. Just do what everyone does and pretend it never happened. 3- the elves all have specific conditions that caused their evolution, generally exposure to magical waters. The real reason, of course, is that trolls are the pinnacle of evolution and don't need to change, elves are just weird, degenerated offshots like troggs or kobolds. 4- WoW has really dropped the ball on figuring out what "undead" really means in the universe, considering how prevalent massive undead armies and zombies with free will and powers of resurrection are. The only explanation I've heard is that death magic is supposed to make a kind of imperfect "buffer" between soul and body which is why zombies don't heal properly and apparently have dulled senses. But they also made it so holy magic hurts forsaken but still heals them... just to some arbitrary point of decomposition I guess? But Nathanos Blightcaller can get a fancy new body and Sylvanas was literally a ghost but got her old body somehow...? Obviously the real answer is that sometimes the designers want the zombie aesthetic and sometimes they don't, worldbuilding be damned.

[@robertlupa8273]

2: I guess Jailer lets her come in and out, since she's on his side. Or something.

[@galten7361]

@kayrius The Light Undead look how they do since they just figured ahead of time what Calia's broad role in future lore would be (as the forgiving and not threatening victim to Sylvanas' villainous victim). Her not being all grody looking reflects it.

[@Leeloo-Foxx]

4 is explained actually. during the reclamation of lorderaon. all magic can make undead, necromancy is necromancy afterall. and the light has been shown time and time again to reverse the rotting process, which is a MASSIVE lore point for forsaken priests

[@TheoryCrafter]

pertaining to future video ideas, how do you feel about the top 10 plot holes from specifically wow classic? ive only ever played classic and SOD so thats my only knowledge of the game. i see soo many cool things but im always told "oh ya, in classic that wasnt addressed or finished" so im curious which ones youd also come up with.

[@pentifexmonolith]

Just a theory, but since we used the remains of the Helm of Domination to create the Crown of Wills it is possible that the Crown of Wills has given the scourge the semblance of consciousness and is what is keeping them in check

[@FishManson]

The first time when I watch the BfA cinematic I actually thought that the Vindicar was called when Anduin look at his sword and golden flashlights appeared in the sky, then the golden beam over Anduin. Then I realized that it was just a bubble...

[@WikiHL]

I'm fine without having a LK. Feel "there must always be a Lich King" was just some pulled last minute decision to keep the LK/Bolvar around

[@patrickwilkerson1728]

Shadowlands in the whole expansion has a lot of plot holes I feel. The Jailer himself being the big bad evil that caused almost the issues in the previous expansions, Sylvanas acting so stupid being fooled by the Jailer where in previous expansions she is very intelligent, Elune being a terrible Goddess making her favorite people fall asleep while they are being burned alive instead of saving them.

[@galten7361]

@patrickwilkerson1728 Elune was just used for a faux-Book of Job.

[@Shikaschima]

The fucking Maw being the Failsafe. That's what I didn't get. "Oh, we don't know what to do with the souls, LET'S JUST THROW THEM ALL INTO ETERNAL DAMNATION." Like, ffs, Blizzard. The entire expansion was built on one of the most idiotic situations possible.

[@runenorderhaug7646]

It is because the maw was the original shadowlands. All the other realms were basically built on top it. This is pretty explicitely stated at a couple point too

[@F14thunderhawk]

@@runenorderhaug7646 it was, then it was retconned entirely in 9.1 maybe the single worst written patch ever.

[@magicalgirlanime]

I imagine Anduin saying he wants to use the vindicar to nuke people got a resounding "Go fuck yourself" from the lightsworn.

[@Efinem3787]

Such a fun and interesting video!! Can u do a pt 2 and 3

[@3DTyrant]

With number 8, there WAS an achievement for killing all the dragons in the Ruby Sanctum scenario, but was removed for reasons I don't recall.

[@madcat789]

Fun fact, during the attempt to retreive Tirion's body, the player is able to kill Argent Dawn NPCs, actual rep owning NPCs. I took full advantage of this and spent three hours doing this, making sure I'm*Hated* by them. Any Argent Dawn characters my Death Knight comes across, no matter what, attack on sight. Its glorious.

[@varlak9061]

that does actually seem to make it fit more inline with what you've done in the quest

[@madcat789]

@@varlak9061 Im also not allowed anywhere near Argent Dawn strongholds. I pull max level elites, and its great.

[@beastmaster0934]

Dude, imagine if the Death Knights were actually successful at retrieving Tirion’s remains. Horseman Tirion has a nice ring to it. And he’d be the leader of the Four Horseman too!

[@influx8450]

I leveled though drustvar multiple times yet I didn't even know this quest existed

[@guilhermecesar9185]

Great Video. About the part of the DK's warcrimes, in real world, many times their sins are "forgiven" since they are part of the "good guys" and they won the conflit. In both world wars( I & II), the winning side had comited several warcrimes, but they judge and condemn only the loosing side. About the last expansion( whose I refuse to say their name due to being the worst expansion in general), I Believe they try to create a new lore and universe, but they retconned many of their lore to turn the Jailer in the biggest threath to the very existence( but in this expansion) and I have to agree with the coment that says the poor writing let so many plot holes in the lore, that shows it will not be resolved without another retcon.

[@stevek4070]

But what about the great Goblin Cannon? They have this massive cannon in Azshara that I think we were promised it'd be used and has still just sat there.

[@mrvex6695]

Its more of a set piece than actual weapon, it couldnt hit anything in the first place, either it has such velocity that the shell would fly out of Azeroth or it doesnt and couldnt fly around the planet and hit Stormwind. And given its a cannon, not rocket ramp, once the shell is in the air, there is no guiding it to compensate for things like...planet rotation. If it wouldnt just blow up when fired, given its made by Goblins who dont care about safety.

[@galten7361]

@mrvex6695 Setpiece but not a weapon applies to a lot of the tech in Warcraft.

[@ungabunga115]

I think an interesting plothole that should have been covered is Saronite, and how Icecrown Citadel was made completely of Saronite, but everyone that was in the citadel, or was on the outside, or was even near it didn't succumb to the whispers (at least those who are susceptible to it). It's mainly more so about Saronite and whether or not it actually does whisper to anyone who comes into contact with it, or the citadel just doesn't give off whispers, or they created some sort of mental ward to block the whispers so they could finish the war. Because during Wrath, we had seen countless times how Saronite is corruptive and speaks to the people who use it, excluding the Undead. With Whispering Gulch, Pit of Saron, hell even the fact that it's literally Yogg's blood. I highly doubt that smelting and forging Saronite into weapons/armor (aside from the refined saronite that members of the Ashen Verdict uses), eliminates all of the whispers. That to me, is a major plothole that I think needs to be addressed and I don't see a lot of people bring up either.

[@beastmaster0934]

In the case of the undead folks, Undead are apparently immune to Saronite’s effects on them. As for the Alliance and Horde forces storming it, that I have no clue on.

[@galten7361]

@ungabunga115 The Old Gods are not well made.

[@seanstuchbery]

Arceus the Ebon Hold😂

[@MrSoulsed]

Glad I'm not the only one😂

[@trogdorburninating]

It's revealed in the N'zoth boss fight that he knew about the deal betweeen Sylvanas and Azhara, The whole point of that 2 boss raid was to see whether we were strong enough to defeat Azhara and thwart her plans. After proving ourselves he lets the horde take the blade to Sylvanas because without the blade Azhara would never have let us into the palace to free Nzoth

[@coryaustin7379]

Scenarios should've never been forgotten. They could've been used to explain/fix the many plotholes we have right now. The Alliance has a super spaceship they can use? Let's put together a scenario where the Horde players team up with the Gob Squad to sabotage it. But we all know Blizzard would rather use books to explain their shit in game story, "please buy the books now only $49.99 please buy we still have to pay Papa Bobby"

[@galten7361]

@coryaustin7379 Blizzard devs have not thought about what having all the tech the setting has circa TBC would lead to in it.

[@BasketChase98]

Xalatath’s disappearance isn’t a retcon, it’s a part of her history. It’s not the first time it’s happened either. For example, when Mogdud staged her attack on the wildhammer, her dark magics (later “revealed” i.e. retconned to come from being a wielder of Xalatath herself) suddenly and inexplicably failed her. Her final words being simply repeating the phrase “you promised… you promised… you promised…” over and overs It’s implied that Xalatath has abandoned all of her former wielders by mysteriously vanishing, even disappearing right out of their hands. I think it’s similar to how the Gorehowl you can loot off Malchezzar in Karazhan can be in your bags even while fighting Garrosh who now wields it, or how casters who completed Atiesh are still able to xmog it and create a portal to Karazhan even though canonically Kadghar has it now. You can still have knaifu sitting in your bank even though canonically she left you and reappeared in the naga’s possession.

[@DIEGhostfish]

8:37 I hate Maldraxxus SO MUCH for this retcon. I choose to believe we only SEE Maldraxxus as scourge-like because that's how our minds process everything. The Scourge copied the Nerubians, our characters just see Maldraxxus as the most horrifying undead we remember. 9:33 Danuser can suck it, I'm never accepting the Nerubians were just coppying his god-awful expansion. Nor the First ones, nor the pre-Zaetar Centaur.

[@samwellcheck562]

It's one of the most bottom-of-the-barrel hack writer tricks: take something someone else made that the audience already likes and say the thing you made was really behind it all.

[@Cloudyowly]

I would say that many Nerubians went to Maldraxus after death but I get the point I dont play wow for years now and thier bad writing still hurt me

[@galten7361]

@DIEGhostfish Wouldn't be surprised if Danuser called New Star Wars great.

[@starryskies9655]

I actually super appreciate that DKs still get to do some evil stuff after they’re out from under the lich kings influence. Too bad I never liked their kits much

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

If they have space ships why can't they draw a map of the whole planet of Azeroth? I mean they have to have scanners on that thing to beam people down right?

[@Leeloo-Foxx]

this is a world where entire continents can be hidden from even god like beings through magic. i highly doubt a mortal made machine can do better than actual gods.

[@NorthyStarrs]

I love that we have context for nerubians coming now!

[@katsarelas1947]

I feel like the “no Lich king” part is kinda like the walking dead theory that “yea all the zombies should have fallen apart by now” Yes, the scourge are magically risen, but in those 10 years warlords broke away from the whole that the lich king actually controlled. And, remember, the pre patch had us beat back an arrowhead force of those formally under Bolvar’s control. The fact is the “scourge-scourge” might be fairly small at this point. With any potential necromancers being part of warlord factions instead of “the” scourge.

[@galten7361]

@katsarelas1947 The undead in Walking Dead and Romero's films are a divine punishment for man. Not like the Scourge.

[@arcuscotangens]

There not being a Lich King makes perfect sense, actually. Remember that the warning came in WotLK. Since then, player characters have only gotten stronger and stronger. So it's safe to assume that a full scale invasion by the Undead would be a minor inconvenience at most. This also explains why the Scourge never attacked since then. Even if Bolvar wanted to, he probably realized that powercreep had made his entire faction redundant. So he huffed some copium and pretended he never wanted to attack at all. He was probably relieved to be finally taken out by Sylvanas. See? It all makes sense!

[@Sarik0497]

Personally, I’d not say the Xalatath questline with N’Zoth was a plotline (with the exception only really being Azshara still having the blade in Nyalotha, but that might be explored later on), as N’Zoth wanted the player character and the Heart of Azeroth to get to his prison so he could escape. Remember; the Horde is allowed to take the blade to Sylvanas, so that Nathanos can be led to Nazjatar, and therefore led to N’Zoth’s prison. Had the Horde not been giving the blade, they’d not have been able of finding Nazjatar on their own without the naga outright going “Hey big boy. Come and get me!”, which would likely have made everyone far more suspicious of her motives. But again, how and why exactly Azshara still had the blade in Nyalotha is a major plothole that makes no sense (yet), so we can only hope that it’s explained in a later expansion.

[@Grivehn]

Funny how Zovaal couldnt rewrite WoW's internal reality, but the entire lore was rewritten IRL to fit him and its still littered with plotholes.

[@XemoxxjediX]

I think the plot hole with Sire Denathrius creating the Nathrezim could explain why the Scourge architecture mirrors Maldraxxus

[@Adam-jn7nc]

so why they didn't addapt Revendreath architecture ?

[@XemoxxjediX]

That is a fair point Maybe it has something to do with the way Maldraxxus does things with runes and magic? Or maybe they didn't want to point themselves back to Revandreth to avoid questions or scrutiny?

[@TheRemulosEpsolonProgramme]

I still want to know why Baine didn't see his dad Cairne in the shadowlands...

[@cabrondemente1]

Because Cairne aint as popular as Garrosh or Kael

[@yoricade]

Especially considering that Baine did absolutely NOTHING the whole expansion... he could have at least gone on a personal quest to find his father

[@VermilionWake]

This is pure speculation but have we seen a single Tauren, Yangol or Tonka across the entire Shadowlands? Eyes of the Earth Mother and the rest of the Tauren Mythos talk of them being of the earth mother aswell as mention of An'she and Musha which we now know as Elune and her brother the Sun who has been oddly missing as figure in WoW far too long imo, however, now we know that the light gem in SoD is a tear of Anshe as well as other big hints at his return in the TWSS.

[@laertesindeed]

@TheRemulosEpsolonProgramme Uhhhh.... go back and do the tauren heritage armor questline and you literally see ghosts and including the ghosts of Cairne and his wife. Which Baine talks to..... then you get your heritage armor and go back to what you were doing. That heritage armor questline came out before shadowlands, by the way.

[@jamaldavis2480]

Simple really Cairne went to a place that we didn't visit within the shadowlands. That place is much bigger then we see.

[@Titan990]

Eh some of these are a stretch to call plot holes. 10 and 9: fair 8: it’s really just genre of game getting in the way of story. The “hero” has to win in some way 7: you pretty much explained it but the other angle is because it looked cool 6: not a plot hole as of yet. It’s set up for later down the line 5: the only legit plot hole. Like wtf happened? 4: it’s a “goes without saying” just assume it got destroyed at the end. A much better one would be some of the creatures escaping into Kalimdor at the end of the quest Maghar quest line 3. Same as 4. Just assume some void fanatic took it. 2. This is not a plot hole, the helm got destroyed and changed at the end of shadowlands. And with Zovaal gone, the need for a lich king is also gone 1. It’s set up for later.

[@Hissey1987]

what bothers me most about bfa is the narrative of: Oh my god, there is a giant sword in Azeroth, the planet is bleeding out, let's fuck each other up before trying to heal it.

[@moscanaveia]

Terenas wouldn't become omniscient about the threat the Jailer designed for Azeroth. It's almost like his notion that the good guys had a chance to rein in this world-ending threat was just a glimpse into the real threat behind the Scourge. The Jailer plotline was not planned when Blizzard wrote the original Wrath conclusion, but it fits Terenas' foreshadowing perfectly, without having characters in game spell out the plot for the players in neat detail

[@dashkataey1740]

My guess with the Vindicaar is that the Draenai wouldn't allow it to be used as a weapon like that for fear what it would do to Azeroth. What are the long term effects of using it's main weapon? It could leave some kind of risiduals that might be devastating to all life and as such, using it on Argus that was already pretty dead didn't matter but using it on Azeroth could have dire consequences.

[@normannseils3936]

I’m pretty sure before “ordering” the shadowlands they were more of less linked to the old gods, especially YogSaron the self proclaimed “god of death” there was plenty of time to adapt this architecture when the Neruda were acting on behalf of YogSaron.

[@mattphoenix4702]

lol oh come on. The blade vanishes as soon as it’s used. N’Zoth is definitely not dead. He’s in the blade. And I think this is the catalyst for Midnight. Corrupt the Sunwell with N’Zoths essence… or even just use it to straight up restore his body, but more powerful than before since he consumed the power of the well. The events of TWW are going to be a distraction to draw all eyes towards the threat to the world soul. With everyone occupied, it wouldn’t be so difficult for a powerful agent of the void to infiltrate the Sunwell Plateau. Someone who is intimately familiar with said blade, since it was her prison for so long.

[@wulfric7202]

Regarding the Vindicar after it dropped off our heros back on Azeroth I could see it returning to Argus before the portal closed and it hovers around that planet making sure no demons return. I like to think we have the beacons to teleport on board of it, but the ship itself has never made a trip across the cosmos to Azeroth. i highly doubt they have the navigation tools to detect the planets from so far away.

[@karmalotto8587]

My favorite minor, yet stupid plot hole: Kazzara! Read her dungeon journal entry. Then enter the raid and approach her. Let your jaw drop to the floor as her armor comes flying, snapping onto her. The armor that was supposedly put on her ages ago, literally according to the dungeon journal. I guess you could argue that she has weird mind powers and can control the plates to fly on and off at will, but no, tbh that's stupid. I think the devs just don't talk to each other and didn't use their brains in this case.

[@SakugaZai]

There was also the time when Mieve went missing in Legion. She was there up until the tomb of sargaras, but then was gone with no explanation during the invasion of Argus. Also the frost dragon lady somehow one-shot Odyn, the guy who took down Ragnaros, without any effort. Actually the whole power scaling of the incarnates is weird. We don’t know how their elemental power compares to someone like Niddog from legion, or the other elemental dragons of wow. They can one shot Odyn which makes them more powerful then elemental lords, yet the lords are so strong that they had to be imprisoned in the elemental plains to avoid damaging Azeroth. Supposedly they gave death wing a run for his money, yet they’ve never done any feat in game that ever compares to the damage done by the cataclysm. Vyrinoth is now an aspect of…storms? What does a aspect of storms even do? Every other aspect and their flight has an important job that contributes to the wellbeing of Azeroth while the storm thing seems to be a self-given title with no actual purpose, Etc. Speaking of the cataclysm, where were the primalists during all that? Lastly I have a classic plot hole for all of you: “Draenor is Freeeeee!” - Grommosh Hellscream for some reason at the end of WoD. (Honestly that whole expansion was unfinished and full of potholes)

[@dimitrijansen9872]

The draeno ending was just a quick finish. Allot was scrapped for that expansion, including lore. Shame cause what it did have was enjoyable.

[@фанатКуплинова-ь1е]

@@dimitrijansen9872 Yeah, the sudden pivot to Legion without really doing much with the Iron Horde was lame (Black Rock Foundry was awesome but it's obviously not what was planned as the end of Iron Horde). Hyping up a villan for it just to succumb to some other enemy is anticlimactic

[@goblinounours]

The one that really surprised me was the one about the Maldraxxus architecture, because I guess I convinced myself that Blizzard had retconned the Lore and was trying to imply that Denathrius' dreadlords had been sent to do crazy rituals to phase Maldraxxus buildings to Azeroth, leaving custodians of Maldraxxus to say "hey, where did the crypt/necropolis go?!". That would've aligned with the WC3 where you'd have acolytes on Azeroth making rituals to 'receive' the builds stolen straight from Maldraxxus. It was headcanon, but I guess it made so much more sense to me that I convinced myself it was correct. Danuser confirming it's still tied to Nerubians just confuses me...

[@kirbymaster5]

Remember Il'Gynoth speaking in riddles in the Emerald Nightmare? Remember when he said to drown yourself in the circle of stars to find N'Zoth? What could that mean? Turns out there's a place literally named the Circle of Stars, so I guess we were just supposed to take him at face value when he mentioned that one!

[@Kunori]

The DK thing with the red dragons bothers me, since I was very careful to do a no-kill run through the sanctum with my DK (you can sneak around almost all mobs until you get to the book, and then using strangulate on the mob near it gives you enough time to loot it without needing to kill them), and then blizzard basically had my character treated as a red dragon murderer anyway. And because I was Horde, I didn't even get to do the drustvar quest at all! As for all the shadowlands plot holes... yeah, they really should have retconned all of shadowlands out of having happened. There's just too much.

[@BeRightBackQ8]

I think Valen forbid the usage of the Vindicaar in warfare ( Offensively ) since both the alliance and the horde helped bring down The Burning Legion.

[@Viltreta]

Don’t we learn in Shadowlands during the Kyrian quest line that the scourge are attacking various places on Azeroth ?

[@Aernath]

Thank you for the real and very much needed, proper lore content. You're the best! (Hi to the team! ;P)

[@gmoddude12]

okay so i will be honest and say that i fail to see the whole nathrezime working for the jailer portion as a retcon yes they worked for the legion and all that but they made it clear in shadowlands that not only where they made there by denathrius so if anything it feels more like story adding more context to existing lore rather than retconning it and if that is a retcon then literally every expansion and game since warcraft 1 is a retcon as it adds new lore to what was originally made effectively changing it in some capacity the helmet part though is totally a retcon as they completely changed who made the helmet rather than simply letting us know why it was made and who actually had them do it in the first place

[@deployed246]

At the end of Legion, the portal to Argus closed and all that remains is the small tear in the fabric of reality that we now see as a red star in the sky. We should not have been able to return to Argus for the Man'ari questline without a significant ritual to reopen the tear. This is how the Dark Portal worked too. It was "destroyed" at the end of Warcraft 2 but a tear remained, a ritual using the Skull of Gul'dan was required to reopen it for Warcraft 2's expansion. While an off-screen ritual is not out of the question, it should go without saying that we would see the effect that portal being reopened.

[@Ricros_]

We return to Argus via the beacons that were set up there and which are still connected to the Vindicaar.

[@Treebobo12]

What is that mount addon you have? looks so clean

[@alvarobordeuisla3293]

10: I honestly forgot that in the Legion website it stated that Xavius was working with the Legion, I simply thought that he used the invasion to spread the Nightmare, even Cenarius says on the raid that he hopes this distraction does not cost too much in the defense against the Legion, and that he hopes after the invasion is over, the world could rest a little before the Old Gods made their move. Also, he is tecnically not "alive" in a traditional way, what we face during his expansion is his soul that is bound to the Emerald Nightmare, just like the other spirits that are linked to the Emerald Dream, that is a in-between the physical world and the shadowlands. His shadow can proyect itself into the physical world, but it is not as strong. 9: While Anduin is the leader of the Alliance, the Vindicaar is Velen's, and given his history, I really doubt he would like to offer space lazers against any living being... I have no argument against N'Zoth invasion. 8: Death Knights are globally hated by most races, it does not matter if they are veterans of the 3rd of 4rd wars, in lore it seems everyone hates the Ebon Blade after the events of Wrath, where they were seeking redemtion for their actions, but ever since they keep falling into doing horrible acts, that in lore is because of a psichological disease they have. 7: We may actually get an answer in the next expansion 6: That one is easy... the Jailer is dumb......................... that's it 5: There is some hints that could explain this. There is a group that you did not mention on this video that play a huge roll during the last raid of Dragonflights, the Druids of the Flame. If you check their documents, you discover that they have indeed been active way longer than the expansion, and since the Druids of the Flame need a link to the Firelands to BE Druids of the Flame, I think is implied that Smolderon may have been training these druids during BFA waiting for a chance to expand his power. 4: It is possible that the vines are a threat, but without a Genesaur to empower them the spread shoudl be much, much slower and manageble by the people of Stormwind. 3: With the time incursion into the war of the Elements and the Old Gods, N'Zoth is the only one that realize the time travelers and is able to see into their minds, so is HEAVELY implied that N'Zoth not only knew of his defeat, but planned around it. 2: In the web novel before Shadowlands, it is stated that Bolvar recalled almost ALL the lower tiers of the Scourge to battle Sylvanas, and all these forces were wiped out. The mayor threat the Scourge had in WotLK was the massive number they had, but Bolvar was both using the Ebon Blade to kill those not under his influence and keeping tabs on those that could be a threat if he were to lose the healm. After Bolvar lost his position, the size of the Scourge was hugely diminish, but as you state they are still a possible threat to the world, just not as dangerous as before. 1: Let me rephrase point 6, The Jailer is REALLY DUMB

[@Xero-Space]

The fact that in The War Within that Nerubian architecture and Maldraxxus still isnt touched upon afaik despite having an entire Nerubian kingdom to play in is wild.

[@jacoblong9393]

"Abandoned by Blizzard" That is a HUGE Understatement.

[@schrodingersbeer4751]

There's a reason why Danuser isn't writing for Blizzard anymore.

[@daniellewis3330]

To be completely fair, *a lot* of incredibly overconfident villains leave the heroes alive when they could kill them, because they feel them to be beneath their notice, almost like an insult..."you're not even worth killing" sort of thing. It *is* stupid, but it's also very...."normal"...for lack of a better word. So the Jailer leaving us alive when he had us at his mercy is certainly odd, but also, in a strange kind of way, almost kind of what's normal. A very strange storytelling trope.

[@samwellcheck562]

Well rampant HIV and water-born disease are normal in Africa, don't think that suddenly makes them okay. "It was always bad" will never be a good excuse for anything.

[@Nett11]

Xalatath is revealed to be this elusive 'Harbinger' later the full title being 'Harbinger of the Void' but Uunat, a lieutenant of Azshara and Zoth, already held that exact title. So how come Uunat didn't or can't utilise the powers of being the Harbinger in the same ways Xalatath can

[@Leeloo-Foxx]

because xal has the dark heart, uunat didnt

[@emmsnake]

I want to see you team up with Krakenlatte since she LOVES both BFA and ShadowLands, especially for their lore.

[@heramaaroricon4738]

Regarding the Vindicaar, the Draenei don't share their technology unless necessary, to prevent abuse of their advanced knowledge. Also, I read somewhere in the game quest texts that the Vindicaars weapon systems got destroyed when they used it to clear the way in Antorus. Aside of that, the Draenei are a peaceful species, which to some extent also includes the Lightforged Draenei. Just because they are very capable warriors of the Light doesn't mean they would use their advanced technology in every conflict. And having all of that into account, it would be pretty busted if the Draenei could just wipe out all of Azeroth piece-by-piece with a single ship from Orbit while no one could do anything against it. So they "retired" the ship in the story unless needed.

[@KennySpace]

Imagine one day all death knight characters will go to jail for a year and you can just log into your cell and do literally nothing 😂

[@TheAngelRaven]

The answer to most: Danuser can't write worth a damn.

[@ridingnerdy6406]

In Legion if you're a paladin and do the Corrupted Ashbringer 'quest', there's mention of the Death Knights assistance making amends for the Tirion business.

[@bobdole7451]

Right from the get go of shadow lands, The jailer kept referencing his "master plan" but never emphasized what it was. It was pretty clear the writers had no clue what they were doing on that one.

[@LightBrand]

Throne of Tides wasn't exactly retconned lore wise. It's that the original last boss was just an AFK sporadic adds fight until you're empowered and beat down the afk squid who then kidnaps Neptulon and abruptedly ended the Vashjir campaign. 10 years later in Mythic+ balance you can't have that as a last boss so they reworked that specific fight.

[@galacticdino]

Using the Vindicar was an excellent excuse to escalate the war and eliminate it. Imagine the Alliance using the Vindicar and Sylvanas using it as an excuse for a death ray in the skies, and the Horde doesn't have a way how to defend against the Alliance. Gallywix has all the reasons to create Azerite super weapons or even use his giant cannon. In that way, Blizzard had the chance to justify: - Heavy damage on the Vindicar. - Start an arms race around Azerite.

[@samwellcheck562]

Alliance: Capital ship with death rays Horde: Giant apocalyptic cannon in Ashzara BfA: Let's do nothing with either of these.

[@Zingarius]

They should have wrote that the Vindicaar went after Illidan to aid him with his fight against Sargeras