Historical Mongolian Archery Analysis #2

For Mongolian Military Horse Archers in the 13th Century of Ghengis Khan, they usually carried 2 bows with an estimated draw weight of around 50-150lbs and the draw length is generally less than 30". But how did they speed shoot arrows?
This is the Part 2 of my Mongolian Archery Technique Analysis/Tutorial, where I also talk about how Altan speed shoots his arrows on horseback.
Although there is limited historical sources of how the Mongols shot their arrows during the 13th Century, most of this is based on logic and Ming Dynasty Archery Instruction Text.
Asiatic Archery Playlist: • Commercial Bow Reviews
Mongolian Footage:
by Altan Nergui
Thank you ATARN - Asian Traditional Archery Research Network
Music:
Rowan Hartsuiker www.rowanhartsuiker.com
Монгол:
сайн байна уу KZbin бол энэ Жек өнөөдөр бид Монгол байт харвааны талаар ярих болно. Хэрэв та онлайнаар хайвал 13-р зууны монголчуудын талаар олон видео үзэхгүй. Чингис хаан дэлхийн алдартай ихэнх хэсгийг байлдан дагуулж байх үед байт харваа. Энэ бол би энэ видеонд анхаарлаа төвлөрүүлэх гэсэн үе юм. Монгол харваачдын талаар онлайнаар үзсэн KZbin-ийн ихэнх видео бичлэг нь орчин үеийн Наадам харвааны талаар бөгөөд энэ нь харьцангуй өөр байх бөгөөд би харьцуулж үзье.
орчин үеийн наадмын монголд үзэхэд тэд сумаа олимпийн хэв маягийн уламжлалт тал дээр тавьсныг харах болно.
Монгол байт харвааны төрөлд монголчууд сумаа ердийн талд нь олимпийн байрлуулсантай адилхан байрлуулсан байдаг. 13-р зууны үеийн монголчууд нум сумаа татаж, сумаа нөгөө талд нь орчин үеийн Туркийн уламжлалт харваа шиг хийдэг байв. шалтгаан нь монголчууд морь ашигладаг байсан. нөгөө талаараа сум тавиад эрхий хуруугаараа хуруугаа байрлуулахад энэ хурууг маш тогтвортой сумаар өгдөг.
би дээш доош үсэрч байсан, гэвч сум нь унаагүй байгаа мэт
Тиймээс 13-р зууны үеийн монголчууд байт харвааг орчин үеийн баяр наадамтай харьцуулбал өөрөөр хийдэг.
Баярлалаа

[@malachimatcho7583]

The archer @ 2:29 moving through the house shooting is more exciting to watch than any Hollywood action movie I’ve seen in the last few years! Seriously.

[@zhangtony3372]

ASIAN LARS ANDERSON

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

that guy should enter guiness world record

[@phawang37]

Someone give him a camera so they don't film vertically

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Hi Malachi Was the audio volume too loud? By turning the volume down did it solve the issue or was it still unbearable

[@malachimatcho7583]

Historical Archery I think you meant to respond to someone else. The audio seemed fine to me. I had no issue with the audio. I know I’ve said this already, but I love your videos!! 😁

[@HistoricalWeapons]

More to come

[@andkonblack]

thanks for the awesome tutorials

[@whatsappuser3540]

shared!

[@markdennis254]

ok seriously why do mongols draw like manchus now

[@BibtheChib]

@@markdennis254 Just my uneducated guess, but I think the short draw length may have been due to the urgency of releasing an arrow on horseback. Most horseback archers only draw to a distance like their chin or lip so they dont take too much time to draw and release. Historical hunters would generally shoot with shorter draw also because of the urgency of being able to shoot their game before it escapes. But when you're standing and aiming at a stationary target for standard practise, there's much more time to draw longer and find an anchor point further down the path of the arrow, like at the ear or shoulder or something, and the Manchu bow style prioritised power over fire rate, hence the giant arrows, so modern stationary archery and Manchu archery have converged for the modern Mongols. As I say to everyone, the best and most interesting way is only by learning them all :)

[@bondvagabond42]

Very cool vids, thanks for taking the time. I think any discussion on draw length needs to take archer size into account. If they are 5' and have a 30" arrow, that tells us something totally different than if they were 6' and had shot a 30" arrow, just as an example. For me, I'm a wooden boat builder, so I'm fascinated by older technology that matches or exceeds modern technology. I'm also 6'5", so If I want to use asiatic recurve techniques to increase my speed I gotta scale stuff up to have the same ergonomics. If I'm like, I gotta shoot a 28" arrow, just cause they did, even though I'm a foot taller, it would be the same technique ya know? Also, where the heck do I get a 140lb horse bow? I'm asking for a friend, lol.

[@fire_lord862]

This is very educational. I hope more of these are coming. ☺️

[@logans3365]

As someone trying to learn traditional archery in America with no teacher, videos like this are every helpful, I hope to find even more detailed teachings when I dive deeper into your channel

[@whatsappuser3540]

amazing work temujin

[@andkonblack]

what is temjin

[@alexhage8092]

Your channel is phenomenal, thanks for everything :)

[@syedassadbokhari4824]

This is my new favourite KZbin channel! So informative and really helps me learn more about Asiatic Archery and the amazing history behind it.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Thanks a lot. Btw what do you think of the audio volume? is it too loud?

[@LouisGeorge]

Volume is fine

[@atune2682]

4:12 nice! never saw this technique before! looks great! thanks for sharing!

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Thanks a lot also is the audio too loud or it's fine to just turn down the volume

[@yourlitlesister]

I believe you mentioned in one of these that there were thumb rings from this period that have been found. I'd love to know more about this as the specific design may further inform us on the techniques used or perhaps even the poundage of some of these bows. Love your videos. I've learned a lot from you.

[@Tulsenus]

im a namnaa club member, altan is my teacher.

[@hurrdurr3615]

I'd really like some olympian horse archery discipline. How do you guys things the rules could look like?

[@HistoricalWeapons]

I believe it would follow same rules of the the Mounted Archery Association of various countries combined. I am also amazed that this is not in the olympics because horse sports are btw what do you think of the audio volume? is it too loud?

[@phawang37]

I'm that guy in total war that spams horse archers and ends up hiding in a corner to draw

[@andkonblack]

lol im the guy that spams levy infantry

[@jaafarkafiruddinkhanmuadza1353]

+Star trek 351 im the guy who spams the whole total war game with cheats and my own unit mods with upgrades

[@syangkhan]

Thanks for the explanation, very enlightening ;)

[@NoelJamesRiggs]

Great tutorial and very informative. I just finished listening to Dan Carlin's "Wrath of the Khans" (which is excellent BTW) and this video helped me to see just how the Mongolian Military Horse Archers did it. Amazing. Thanks!

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Your welcome btw I’ve been trying to listen to his older podcasts where you find them

[@NoelJamesRiggs]

@@HistoricalWeapons download an app called "Player FM" in Google apps or Apple apps as well. Then search for Hardcore History. You can also just do a Google search for "Player FM Hardcore History". All his podcasts are there for free.

[@vanivanov9571]

Great video! Your narration has improved markedly since the previous one. This was a pretty interesting analysis of speed shooting techniques for horseback use. I'd love to see a history show where archers competed with different techniques.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Thank you. Also I'm wondering is the Audio too loud that it hurts your ears or you could just turn it down

[@vanivanov9571]

@@HistoricalWeapons The volume was pretty good. It was a bit quiet in the first part where you speak to the camera, but all the other parts have a similar volume. I didn't notice it the first time, as it's pretty easy to adjust the volume. Too loud is better than too quiet, as some videos are barely audible at maximum volume. You could tweak the volume down slightly, but it doesn't need much adjustment, I think.

[@garychynne1377]

enjoyed. good coverage. goods shooting. thank yew

[@trodriguez362]

very informational this is the second time looking at your videos. I've subscribed looking forward to see more videos. Im thing ing about purchasing a Mongolian bow and learning to shoot with a thumb ring. I've been shooting traditional recurves and long bows, zthsnk you for sharing

[@saefeasf]

Great Video, this is very interesting! Thank you very much

[@kamilozdemir1903]

Dude, I remember you not being able to buy an asiatic 200+ # bow because it costed 6000 USD. Maybe you should look into learning and making your own bows. The costs would be minimal, it would be hard work though. I believe you can finish one until you get to being able to draw that weight.

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

the dude has a 240 english longbow...but its 500 canadian $

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Thanks it takes a lot of skill and patience to make a horn bow like that and considering I have 0 experience I might try it with modern fibreglass Also mind if I ask hows the audio in the video? im worried it was too loud

[@kamilozdemir1903]

@@HistoricalWeapons The audio didn't seem "loud" to me but I am listening on low quality headphones so don't take my word for it. Trust me I know how much skill and patience it requires to use traditional materials. I have been looking into making a turkish bow(me turkish) and then I started looking not in but away seeing the sheer amount of skill and work needed. I hope I will get to that point within a decade. My point here is, if you use modern materials as well you may be able to make 200 #+ bow asiatic composite sooner than later. Just go for it. Maybe later you will be able to make the real deal and I promise you if I get to that point earlier; I will make one for you.

[@aungkyaw5897]

Great video. Thanks for your explanation.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

My pleasure!

[@dsasd778]

this is amazing tutorial

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Thanks a lot. Btw what do you think of the audio volume? is it too loud?

[@TruthBeliever5557]

Your shooting 10 arrows with about 100 ibs bows in a minute and doing that to the enemies in battles that go on for hours would be an absolutely devastating loss to the enemies, that just comes to show why Horsebowmen were absolutely fearsome 🔥

[@LOFIGSD]

Great video, I'm in England, have done the Longbow thing, been shooting Asiatic bows now for 9 Months, Mongol and Kurkish, the Turkish is only 42 inches, so very unforgiving to shoot, but got the hang of it, posted a few videos. Next Bow will likely be a Grozer hand made at about 90-100 lb.

[@user-em8hp9ck7w]

Good Job, Mergen!

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Thanks!

[@tomtolentino7575]

Excellent observation Sir.......I also believe that certain situations, such as horseback archery, and archery used for close quarters combat, has its certain applications, as well as the individual archer’s preference method. Historically I agree with you, and it makes sense. I know a few archers that are relatively new to this discipline of archery, including myself, and we are experimenting different methods, as well as applying the historical way. It’s fascinating how one can be proficient once he , or she has found the right one. Thanks for sharing and happy shooting 😎😇🇺🇸🇵🇭🇺🇸🇵🇭🇺🇸🇵🇭🏹🏹👍

[@flavius22]

Love ur vids

[@HistoricalWeapons]

thanks man

[@sergeib8840]

people from developing country deserve more attention

[@andkonblack]

why

[@joelarson1733]

As an American I don't really have any say about it, but I would think that less media coverage of smaller countries is better, because as soon as they begin to "trend" they suffer from an influx of immigrants from first world countries which can stress the economy and corrupt the culture.

[@andkonblack]

man i wanna play mount and blade 3 now

[@sergeib8840]

im playing it ill sell it for 1000$ if u want

[@zhangtony3372]

@@sergeib8840 trolol

[@HistoricalWeapons]

it will take so long my grandkids can play it

[@sandorzoltangergely]

Very very THANK you. Thank you very mutch. 🙏👍🏻👍🏻🎯

[@lajoyalobos2009]

Very interesting way to defeat the Roman Phalanx. I think most anti-cavalry techniques relied on long spears but with a horse archer taking their time, picking shots at the gaps in armor and shields it's no good.

[@xiaotian5863]

Awesome

[@vaughnedwards1724]

The "roll" after the release is sweet..

[@phawang37]

more vids like this plz

[@MultiOhioman]

Nice makes sense.

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

Nice

[@MrHL5]

nice channel

[@naturebc]

The problem I have with Lars’ technique is that he is shooting a light bow which has no war applications. I think you have the practice in as real situation as possible. I think you could hold multiple arrows between your fingers, knock end up. Between your pinky and the ring finger and still hold the bow and have strength to draw

[@christinah6664]

nice

[@theokrisna]

Off topic but still related to speed shooting (kinda). Are you still monitoring the Medieval style SIL device? 'cause it seems like Tod's workshop took the idea of working together with joerg positively.

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

the instant legolas is pointless when u have skill, have u seen Altan shoot, he shoots faster than the instant legolas

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Also mind if I ask hows the audio in the video? im worried it was too loud

[@HistoricalWeapons]

I will make a video to attempt speed shooting a warbow and compare my speed with the SIL

[@theokrisna]

@@HistoricalWeapons yeah, a bit too loud, only a bit. Edit: I mean there's a bit jump in volume here an there, such as at 3:53

[@gizmonomono]

A very interesting video. One question though, why is your nocking point so low on the string? Don't the feathers scratch your hand when you shoot?

[@HistoricalWeapons]

I should of moved it a centimeter higher

[@dancummane3668]

Sick

[@FullMetalAmerican]

I think something to also think about with arrow length and draw length and the average size of people at that time. Most places (I have no idea about Mongolia) at that time people were slightly shorter compared to modern times with a modern diet.

[@nerhaci2074]

educational

[@theghosthero6173]

Hello, I wanted your opinion on why the hourglass quiver(presenting the arrowheads) fadded away in the late 14th century in favor of the flat quiver presenting the fletching?

[@phawang37]

That's so specific

[@HistoricalWeapons]

i don't know much about quivers sorry

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Also mind if I ask hows the audio in the video? im worried it was too loud

[@gfreeman9843]

​@@HistoricalWeaponsit was good mate 🙂

[@caseysmith544]

Fun fact, in the intro and end parts that is true Mongolian throat singing something my brother can do a bit of is that throat style.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

nice, does he have anything i can listen to? would be great if i could use some of his voice for future mongolian vids

[@caseysmith544]

@@HistoricalWeapons Not really from this. He is out of practice badly.

[@paweszymonjasinski7158]

This is big suprise. I figured that technique by myself (1:19) because it was one that fits shooting while walking much more than holding arrows in draw hand. Also it really works good with foam-head arrows.

[@sparkrain3580]

What music did you use in the beginning?

[@kan-zee]

I wonder how long the Horse Archers arrows were ?? I would guess , they were shorter than average hunting arrows, and you could holster them from the belt, or quiver easier. ??

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

Check out another horseback archer called Mihai Cozmei. Shoots very fast out of a quiver.

[@karlgunther-turkisharchery4272]

I don't believe, that shooting arrows from the bow hand was ever used in history. Are there any written sources about it? So far I only found, that arrows were shot from the draw hand or the quiver.

[@fatboy8420]

wow

[@dick_richards]

MAN!! THIS CAT HAS THE SKILLS TO PAY THE BILLS!!!

[@dillonlong9412]

You look fully legit actually practicing mountain archery with no horse. That's how you do it right there

[@dillonlong9412]

Mounted*

[@tengriguidesmysteps960]

Is this quiver type 13th century based?

[@jareth7456]

Jack , one other variable you didn't mention is timing, when shooting from a horse the arrow is released as all four hooves come off the ground so your not gonna be shooting an arrow every half second, more like every one and a quarter to two seconds per arrow. Now the reason why horse archers need to be able to shoot fast is because target opportunities come and go very quickly. I have a question for ya all ...since Slavic draw is so much faster...then thumb draw, then why is he only using thumb draw from horseback ? And it's got nothing to do with the stability of holding the arrows in the draw hand as the Assyrians did this from a chariot

[@Acroballistics]

How heavy where the arrows? what is the max weight in history?

[@HistoricalWeapons]

we cannot be sure based on archeological evidence since there is so little but based on my personal option 50lb to 150 lbs draw weights

[@HistoricalWeapons]

The heaviest arrow in that museum is around same weight as average Manchu arrow about 1000 grain

[@lorincszabo2452]

These primadonna fast archers do not embark on equestrian archery. The armor did not bother the archer because there were also armor-breaking arrows. The Huns always took horses with only arrows into the battles.

[@rjtwocircles]

One thing you might consider. A horse's gallop is smoother than the canter, which is much smoother than the trot.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Interesting but I think you would still not hold arrows at end of nock on string hand at full gallop

[@rjtwocircles]

@@HistoricalWeapons I saw this after commenting here. I’m not trying to prove anything . I just found it interesting, and it is sort of what I had envisioned. facebook.com/alibowshop/videos/2547926315524630

[@mohammedgazirsayed9083]

5.19 - what song is it?

[@amria5725]

4:20 lol

[@amria5725]

@Jack Fan need a better mic. But Its okey. Keep it simple..

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

meanwhile most of us stuck at home juking off

[@phawang37]

Where u juke? Ponn hub?

[@markdennis254]

can i juk with u

[@ryneagheilim9782]

Rate of fire? DAMN BRO DAS SUM RPG SHIT RIGHT THERE!!

[@shap7296]

Bro someone tell me how fast they can shoot

[@Melthornal]

the best way to hold arrows may not be intuitive, and may be lost to history. it may be something you’d never guess

[@shadowdeslaar]

Personally I loved holding the arrows in hand.. I found it faster, and more accurate. But required me to actually pay attention. But I’m no full time archer either… not after my bow……. decided to Twist. (My fault).

[@pmccord9]

Top speed for thoroughbred racehorse is 55 mph. Mounted soldier on pony sized Mongol horse might make 35, still really fast. Usain Bolt runs 28 mph in the hundred and no way he can shoot an arrow.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

My bad about the speed. I agree it was probably around 50kph for Mongolians horses with an archer

[@Daylon91]

The Turks held their arrows like that too speed up fire. They depended on shooting lots of arrows using that for both defense and offense as they didnt wear much armour. Whereas mongols were more known for their accuracy then fire rate

[@HistoricalWeapons]

where is your source for that, id like to read more

[@Daylon91]

@@HistoricalWeapons during the crusades they filled the air with arrows firing hundreds and hundreds. There was a story of the crusades of a Turkish archery having arrows in his hat and his boots and he fired them all in a matter of minutes

[@gizmonomono]

Interesting. But as far as holding the arrows by the nocks, points up, like Lars.... It's exactly what Mihai Cozmei suggests for shooting fast on horseback. And he wins competitions as far as I know.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

for shooting fast to win competitions yes. but if you want something reliable (especially if your wearing gloves), id stick to the belt quiver. rate of fire is not everything. often you want to make sure each arrow counts

[@gizmonomono]

@@HistoricalWeapons Depends on the situation I guess

[@vintagebowyer1692]

Thanks

[@brianzulauf2974]

It would suck to deal with armor well let me just blow out my rotateor cuff real quick

[@Daylon91]

Slavic was used a lot because of how fast and stable it was yet u say it probably wasnt done on horseback. U should do horseback archery before commenting on horseback archery and drawing and shooting. Mihai is a perfect example of fast slavic shooting on horseback like the persians did

[@mdstmouse7]

what can you tell me about those historical arrow weights? apparently turkish war arrows are around 600 grain. loving your videos. also assuming youve seen this vodeo. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gImvn5-IptScg6s

[@HistoricalWeapons]

I have watched the video and you cant really trust 20th century archery and compare it with 13th century archery. Its like comparing Victorian longbows with argincourt longbows. The closest thing we have are those 3 archeological sites I decribed in 1:25. You can see from the size of these arrows is that it is similar to 20th century Qing Arrows but just shorter draw length. I think therefore it would be between turkish and manchu weight. so around 400-1200 grain range. Keep in mind the mongols had light bows and heavier bows so thats why I give such a large range.

[@mdstmouse7]

@@HistoricalWeapons any good books?

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

@@mdstmouse7 Twilight

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Also mind if I ask hows the audio in the video? im worried it was too loud

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@mdstmouse7 www.academia.edu/40516369/Complexity_of_interaction_along_the_Eurasian_steppe_zone_in_the_first_millennium_CE?fbclid=IwAR0o_KpILIHVWl3UHf5ThMUJMtZTv7eHqe32bKQLaQaa2fUydtP7FQ1yBog

[@pignokor5536]

you look like a dude i met in university, did you go to waterloo?

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Some where else in Ontario

[@RTemiy]

so Legolas Is real.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

haha maybe. also what do you think of the audio volume? is it too loud?

[@RTemiy]

@@HistoricalWeapons yea may be a little, comparing to videos on other channels, you also need to put some nosie filters on your mic audio

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@RTemiy thanks. Was it unwatchable or simply turn off the volume solved the problem

[@RTemiy]

@@HistoricalWeapons it was watchable, but unexpectedly too loud)

[@phawang37]

It's a white guy throat singing, my mind is blown

[@AlfaRevoluzione]

White people living up North. Polaris, Atlantis. Nord America was white b4 the Asians came over the Berringstreet and kill them to Instinct.. Polarbear, Polarwolf.... all a dem living in the ICE Olation. Skin getting bright, and the Eyes blue n Gray.

[@zhangtony3372]

@@AlfaRevoluzione considering we have black people speaking chinese, chinese people speaking white languages and so on this is nothing out of the ordinary

[@phawang37]

@@AlfaRevoluzione I'm sorry but do you have sources to support your claim that the white people arrived before the Asians and were killed off

[@AlfaRevoluzione]

@@phawang37 take a map and look where the iceage was. Ppl or animals in the ice olation bright up... polarfox, polarwolf, polaris (pol arisch) Greek ppl pray to a blond man. A Pol o (from Pol land around)

[@phawang37]

@@AlfaRevoluzione that's not evidence

[@Hashishtani]

Firing rapidly is not a goal, there are only 30 arrows in quiver. It is rather a skill of last resort when you need to take someone who is approaching fast.

[@greatnoblelord]

my child, what do the Oirats-the current population of the MNR and Outer Mongolia-have to do with the golden-haired and blue-eyed, according to the descriptions of the same Rashid al-Din, the historical Mongols of Genghis Khan? Even in the history of the Oirats-Dzungars, it is said that from the first they "voluntarily" submitted to the Mongols, and then, in the 18th century. they fought with the Mongols and captured Mongolia Further, the reference to the Battle of the Karras is not correct - to compare the Oirats on their short-legged ponies and the Scythians on horses fed with oats and hay - and the Scythians and the historical Mongols had developed agriculture is impossible, the Oirat pony will never fulfill the order to attack a crowd of people, and the Scythian cavalry was able to attack on horseback and this kept the Romans in suspense. Especially since the Oirats did not know how to mine and process iron at the beginning of the 20th century last, what is the tension of the bows that are shown in the video? One thing is 40kg onions, another thing is 10kg, they often look the same

[@zhangtony3372]

NO you mentioned Lars Anderson, now u gonna get hated on

[@HistoricalWeapons]

video i did on lars anderson is also the one with 600,000 views lol with 50% like ratio

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Also mind if I ask hows the audio in the video? im worried it was too loud

[@t3ngrist620]

mongols are cool

[@Daylon91]

Horses do not run 60 to 70 km/h loo especially little Mongolian horses. Maybe 55, maybe

[@HistoricalWeapons]

My bad

[@nepaliangusyoung]

Archy infentry

[@stephengent9974]

So why would infantry just stand there to be shot? That sounds plain ridiculous. The Romans were highly efficient fighters. They would not do it. Techniques are all speculation. After all no one fights with bows anymore. In traditional cultures children would learn the skills very young. Native American children honed their skills by hunting insects and birds. So by the time they became teens they would be deadly archers. These skills were essential to their survival in hunting and war. There is no-one alive today that could emulate this.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

with exception of battle of carrahe and some others, horse archers' main job is slowing down infantry, harrasing, and enticing formation disorder.

[@bugger6881]

Nice

[@oackman9250]

nice

[@legntt3488]

nice