History of WWI Primer 107: US Winchester 1897 "Trench Gun" Documentary

[@RockandrollNegro]

My great grandfather was a shotgunner (officially, "trenchgunner") in WW1. He said the paper cartridge problem was overblown. What the troops did at night was use the melted wax of their issued beeswax candles and coat their shells top to bottom, which effectively made them waterproof. You could drop them in a muddy trench, wipe them on your sleeve and be good to go. In his words, the guys shooting brass rifle rounds had the most trouble because they couldn't apply wax without nullifying the primer charge. It was widespread knowledge to wax your shells from company to company, not an isolated practice. Anytime a supply deposit came through, the trenchgunners each got a case of candles. They also waxed their belts, bootleather, slings and shell bags and would do so for their fellow soldiers. They were stationed in France, and the townspeople would sometimes trade them their brass shells for the soldiers' paper shotshells. Apparently Europe had never switched to paper shotshells, so brass shells were easy to trade for if you really wanted them. I asked him about rumors about Germans offering bounties on trenchgunners, and he said that if that were the case, he'd never heard of it. He did know that Germany petitioned the League of Nations to ban shotguns, but nobody cared. He said the myth that shotgunners would shoot down potatomasher grenades like clay pigeons was BS, except maybe as a parlor trick for entertainment purposes. In his own words, he used his bayonet more than he did the gun itself. Al of his fellow trenchgunners made it home in one piece, which leads me to speculate that they weren't deployed as often as has been reported. His brigade never launched an offensive; they strictly held the line in the trenches.

[@georgewittmanjr9655]

L on

[@jackkilburn1829]

This fact is so overlooked by those who say the trench gun never saw the front lines. My dad got to shoot an 1897 Winchester shotgun and said that - as he was loading the original paper cartridges into the chamber - he noticed the shells had a wax coating which made them water proof and did not interfere with the firing process. Thanks for sharing your information!

[@jackkilburn1829]

I should add that I've seen big arguments for both sides; people saying that the trench gun was effective and that's why the Germans tried to ban its use, and then people who say it was only used to guard rear flanks, and was not long range enough to be useful unless you were charged by an enemy. Some say that there were fake eye witness reports made simply as propaganda so that the army would buy more trench guns. Can you give me some insight into the facts on this subject?

[@mandingo2480]

So did mine but he killed 50 men.

[@rainman2222]

Shotguns get hot, hot enough to justify a heat shield. The wax would 100% melt in the tube and jam the spring. I don’t believe this anecdote whatsoever.

[@edm240b9]

I read a reference in Canfield’s book on WWI weapons where a guy said that before a trench raid, guys who were equipped with the weapon would run all the cartridges through the weapon to make sure they fed properly and discarded all the damaged ones. Still doesn’t prevent damage in the field, but just a small anecdote.

[@jacobmccandles1767]

Wrong war, but my father carried a '97 in the Pacific. According to the empty hulls I found in his foot locker, he used shells with what appear to be galvanized steel hulls.

[@alganhar1]

@@vigunfighter That is not the problem though, fine, so you get rid of damaged shells pre mission, but that does not detract from the fact that these were paper shotgun shells, and they were generally carried loose in the pockets. You seen pictures of no mans land? You are scrabbling from shell hole to shell hole, occasionally hitting the dirt as machinegun fire rattles out near you or a shell lands, and you are carrying PAPER shotgun shells in your POCKETS..... These are not modern plastic shells remember.... How many of them do you think are going to be in a firing condition after an hour or so of that kind of activity? Sure, the shells in the shotgun will likely be fine (so long as its dry), but those in your pocketwill have a high likelyhood of having sustained damage that will at the very least render them unable to fire, and at the very worst, possibly render them *dangerous* to fire..... The point is ammunition damage prior to mission is not the issue, ammunition damage *during* the mission is the issue.....

[@buttahXD]

@@alganhar1 They... quickly did away with the paper shells though. Before the end of the war we switched to using brass casings.

[@jacobmccandles1767]

alganhar1 in all fairness, I have used paper cartridges enough be fairly certain that they would easily survive an hour of such conditions, would certainly fire if they would chamber, and would be highly unlikely to become unsafe to fire. What happens is that over days and months of humidity, rain, etc, they would swell or become out-of -round and fail to feed or chamber, thus rendering the gun worthless.

[@davidmiller9485]

@@buttahXD yes and they really never made it to the front in numbers great enough to make a difference. For all practical purposes they were still using paper shells.

[@REALjohnmosesbrowning]

I'm proud of this gun, honestly.

[@andrewhousley9911]

This is my zombie apocalypse shotgun of choice, next to the FN-SLP.

[@Railhog2102]

I think you watch No Country for Old Men where the main character buys a M1897 and cuts it down.

[@Berniessen]

I wish i could swap 5000$ to talk with the real John Browning for a hour but thats a dream that never comes true.

[@sethmcmanus1168]

@@Berniessen same honestly

[@daneschild523]

@@andrewhousley9911 m

[@lloydsims1573]

A story of a blunderbuss: An Amish farmer heard someone going through the family silver, grabbed his blunderbuss, and cautiously moved to the head of the stairs. Observing the thief, he proclaimed "Prithee brother, I mean thee no harm, but thou art standing where I am about to shoot."

[@Szariat]

Mam

[@abstractapproach634]

Would thee lend consideration to seising thy aforementioned intention should I seis gripping my hands where thy silver happens to be good sir?

[@maxasaurus3008]

Nice

[@danithefoot633]

I usually don't try to be crude but there's so many "that's what she said moments" when Mae is talking

[@georgewhitworth9742]

@@danithefoot633"I usually don't try to be crude" Proceeds to be crude...

[@Dominik189]

I love how they talk about how the AoE of shotguns, hehehe, made me chuckle. I believe Clint Smith says it best though. "Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns with the right load, at the right range, will physically remove a chunk of shit from your enemy and throw it on the ground."

[@john-paulsilke893]

Bojan Ljukovcanin I have had the misfortune of seeing such a thing. It is absolutely true and stomach turning.

[@itsapittie]

I carried a military-issued Remington 870 for COINops in Central America during the Cold War. It works. Just trust me, it works.

[@gabeelkins9059]

@William Halter 45 70 all the way in brown bear country

[@Myrlin187]

@William Halter how much you want to bet he wasn't up trying to fight him. That b**** is laying on the ground begging for help I can guarantee it. And that's just from birdshot.

[@edbo10]

Saw a clip of an ISIS execution via shotgun to the back of the head... one of the few times that video games with shotgun gore are actually fairly accurate to their real life counterparts

[@slowpokebr549]

My family hunted quail and pheasant heavily. We had paper shells still around when I was a boy. The damn things swell when wet alright, usually just enough to gum up the works. After they dry out they get brittle and will literally break apart from handling. I still get a sour look on my face every time I see a box of old paper hull shells. People collect them for nostalgia's sake but it just brings back memories of pheasants whistling past me while I'm trying to get my A5 to work.

[@hquiller]

I remember using those paper shells in my Remington 870, maybe 25 to 30 years ago. Remember those damned shells breaking after firing them, and using a long stick thru the barrel to take the metal part out. Shells were very brittle. Last ones I had, I opened them and used the powder to burn ant hills.

[@1st508thAirborne]

We were still using these in my Airborne Infantry unit in 1989 down in Panama. I was stationed down there with the 1st/508th 82nd Airborne (A Co.) and carried one during Operation Just Cause in 1989. Great video.

[@stevejohnson6858]

Did it see any use and how did you like or dislike it?

[@robertbarlow6715]

My daddy was in the 504th in WW2

[@1st508thAirborne]

@@robertbarlow6715 Hooah! AATW!!

[@charlesjones5580]

my Dad was Smaj of 508 at Kobbe 62/66 miss Panama great fishing and shrimping

[@KorbinX]

Blessed Be

[@StacheMan26]

While I too just love this gun and its appearance, as a resident of Connecticut, I am obliged to get sad every time I see an old American gun marked "Connecticut, U.S.A." from the old giants of Winchester, Colt, Remington any of the dozen other manufacturers who once called my state home. It's like looking back into a golden era that was largely over before I was even born and that was well and truly over by the time I was old enough to get seriously interested in firearms. I distinctly remember first learning about this particular piece and trying to research both it and Winchester's lever guns, only to have my quest for knowledge punctuated by the local news station announcing the closure of Winchester's New Haven plant where all of them were made. Really, it's all quite depressing.

[@Hopeofmen]

Not to mention, Malloy, and now Lamont, aren't exactly friendly to the idea of civilians owning firearms, therefore putting a hold on these manufacturers marketing to the civilian market. Also, the cost of living in Connecticut isn't conducive to blue-collar manufacturers...who work on the firearms.

[@kylewhite8434]

That factory should be considered a historical landmark.

[@sibire8284]

Connecticut used to be such a nice state. Glad I moved to Virginia, though; except now Virginia is approaching the same boat.

[@graysonwilliams4826]

Siún Coogan I’m in VA as well. The police chief of my county just fired a cop for holding an illegal wanted by ICE at the scene of a traffic accident for ICE to come pick him up. Apparently fairfax is a “sanctuary county” now, I don’t remember voting for that...

[@lamolambda8349]

Where were you when they built that ladder to heaven?

[@AustinLeeds]

Sleep weren't declared.

[@silas4lagoon776]

So true

[@prussr1885]

Indeed, brother.

[@jackandersen1262]

“I can’t imagine the riots that will follow.”

[@dak4465]

Amen

[@franciscoleonardodepinho6461]

@@silas4lagoon776777q.79vo8lbut5t as 7i66795

[@benjaminmiddaugh2729]

"This is why people liked Sears." Yeah. Sears was the Amazon of the 19th century.

[@edwardpate6128]

It really was, when they got rid of their mail order catalog business it was the beginning of the end.

[@therugburnz]

@@edwardpate6128 yeah, they should've transitioned to the internet while phasing out the paper catalog. They could've been an 'Amazon' and they had the advantage of having suppliers and branding in place.

[@yerroc9816]

@@edwardpate6128 but can you get guns on amazon?

[@BucketPukes1969]

They also used to sell heroin and cocaine kits complete with syringes 😂

[@therugburnz]

@@yerroc9816 Sears was better

[@ThatGuy-a48]

Who wants a C&R video at 3:00 in the morning? Me: OW BOY 3:00AM!

[@Furiereindulgente]

Luckily it's 8AM in Europe.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

I'm going to fold and sleep, I have work tomorrow.

[@ArrowheadAirsoft]

I'm on that Bandwagon :P And I'm in my C&R T-Shirt! (Othias, Notice me!)

[@Furiereindulgente]

@@ArrowheadAirsoft OMG I HAVE IT TOO I'm just so used to wear them.

[@Barabel22]

Just finished some homework for a college class and had this saved on KZbin ready to go when I finished.😀 Started about 1:30 am.

[@Valkyrie1166]

US Army and Marines: *Loads shotgun with malicious intent.*

[@thedemonlord275]

German Soldiers: *Dominating the battlefield* US Soldier: Huns gonna die tonight!!!

[@TechSgtBerry]

Air Force perimeter patrol, in Viet Nam. Shotguns ruled against sappers. Some sappers were women. Dead, just the same!

[@strider04]

@@TechSgtBerry Why does the gender of an enemy soldier matter? They are still an enemy soldier, and they are still trying to kill you, also they were communists, so who cares.

[@strider04]

@Black Dog Mate, you sound more like one than i do, and you also sound like an idiot.

[@strider04]

@Black Dog Mate, shut up, no one wants to hear your baseless insults, you're just making yourself look stupid.

[@TheNinjaGumball]

It is so weird, yet gratifying, finally seeing the Animation for the episode, after spending 4 hours last Thursday night listening to Bruno cut himself on the sharp edges of the loading port. GREAT JOB!!!

[@alganhar1]

As an interesting addition to this, my Great Grandfather fought during WWI, from 1916 - 1918, fighting on the Somme, Passchendaele, Amiens and finally being wounded in action in late October 1918. He recalled while he was still alive that the preferred weapons for a British Night Patrol in No mans land consisted of pistols, grenades, the trench mace (which was a mace head attached to the British Armys entrenching tool handle), and if one could get hold of one a carbine or two. I can see now how the pump action shotgun could be a useful weapon on that kind of mission, also as a secondary weapon in the jungle (though that is another war). I will always refute its use in an actual trench clearing action though. Great Grandpa made it clear that the king in that situation was the hand grenade. You always defended your bombers he said, we would spot for them, defend their flanks with pistols, riflemen would be stationed to defend them from attack over the top, but the main men in a clearing action were the bombers (grenadiers). It is why if you look at many photos of trenches of any nation during WWI you will often see literally BOXES of grenades under cover stacked at regular intervals, and virtually no shotguns.... Though Great Grandpa also stated not long before he died that some of his officers used to hand out light sporting shotguns for some guys to carry loaded with birdshot. They were to be used to shoot the German carrier pigeons. To my knowledge the British army never specifically issued such weapons for that purpose.... However, these were the days before mobile radios (in 1918 a radio weighed about 2,000 lb and required two trucks to carry it, you aint taking that across the shell torn hell hole of no mans land), when the telephones were (inevitably) cut, that left only two forms of communication, runners, and pigeons. Those birds were prime targets, so it kind of makes sense that some officer made arrangements that shotguns would be carried by some of their troops in order to take them down. EDIT: Actually it left three, the last was prearranged flare shoots, a series of different colours in rapid succession, but they tended to be limited to telling people behind either we are under a major attack, or for artillery to fire at pre ranged and pre arranged positions. So not the kind of thing you could change easily! DOUBLE EDIT: Oh, and remember, this is *Europe*, rain is a fact of life on much of the Western Front!

[@mattwalters6834]

Other countries used shotguns with birdshot to dispatch carrier pigeons, like you said. Grenades, improvised trench weapons and if possible, handguns were loved. Shotguns were pretty good in WW1 but really shined in WW2, Korea, and modern day.

[@simondudley581]

That was a truly amazing story mate thankyou. Check out black adder goes forth its about the great war.

[@williamflowers9435]

The British trench mace was an underrated weapon... simple yet effective.

[@mattwalters6834]

@@williamflowers9435 yes, blunt objects are simple yet effective; even in today’s modern combat, the rock, brick, mace, and tire thumper is ghastly effective.

[@DaveP326]

Apparently, the Germans had a different view, because they threatened to execute any US soldier who had a shotgun. The American response was that we would execute 10 Germans for every American that they executed. Nobody was executed by anyome. That was back when we Americans had the backbone to back up our troops-unlike these days.

[@frickinrick89]

"Hi, I'm Othias, and this, well...THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK"

[@phileas007]

surely you refer to the flintlock

[@julemandenudengaver4580]

@@phileas007 no army of darkness

[@DIEGhostfish]

WHen he missed that chance I nearly cried.

[@thurin84]

primitive screwheads were declared.

[@McPh1741]

S-marts top of the line.

Truly... Othias and Mae.. May?? This video is a masterclass in gun history.. I've been a fan for many a year now, and your channel NEVER seems to disappoint.. Actually it causes me to be spoiled when I watch other "gun Channels". Wow guys, what a great video.. Thank you for all your hard work and keeping history alive.

[@RichardNixion357]

GERMAN HIGH COMMAND: *Wait, that's illegal*

[@JNF590]

REEEEEEEEEE

[@badcornflakes6374]

* Evil hand gestures *

[@fugg3543]

@Tiglatus In the second world war, In very small numbers, made so downed airmen could deal with dangerous game in Africa.

[@mwnciboo]

ALLIES *Hey Germany Zero fucks given*

[@andrewmoore7022]

@@mwnciboo so you're telling me the Allies went back in time from world war II into world war I to tell Germany that they don't give a fuck? Or do you mean the Entante?

[@GeneralJackRipper]

Do not forget the sheer intimidation factor of a shotgun as well. Also useful during guard duty.

[@arthurgutfreund1766]

1957 Camp Carson guards had civil war PIKE bannots on 97s. Intimidating!

[@A.F.M.B.1234]

There better come a 10-15min April 1st Blunderbuss episode, Man that things a beauty, and I want to see May with a Pirate Hat firing that thing on the range! (Or on a boat!) ;D

[@mattwalters6834]

With an eyepatch and a parrot on her shoulder.

[@wallaroo1295]

When I was with the 118th MP Company (Airborne), in the late 90s - we still had these in inventory, with bayonets. Unfortunately, at the time (not much room for a curious 19 year old Private in that arms room - plus, I was 19...) - I had other things on my mind 😁 - and I only got to handle one briefly. We knew they were antiques, and they were treated in accordance with that understanding. I think I remember the unit turning them in, for final disposition, along with our M-60s... Mossbergs were the new shotgun for combat MP units. I might be wrong about that turn in though... it's been a long time.

[@cannonfodder6299]

We had them in our arms room in Panama and at Ft Campbell. Our CSM carried one.

[@1st508thAirborne]

We were still using these in my Airborne Infantry Battalion also in 1989 (1/508 82nd ABN INF - A Co.). I carried one during Operation Just Cause. AATW!! 🤜⚡🤛

[@mattwalters6834]

At age 19, you’re definitely chasing the girls 😂 I was the same way, a wild child!

[@DB-yj3qc]

Many of them were still in use at Ft. Knox in 1991-1994 at MASA then turned in. If I knew what I found out later, I could have swapped them out with new M500s. No one would care if anything they would have been glad. When I was there as NCOIC of guards, I started cleaning them. At the time, it had probably been 10 or more years since anyone had done anything with them other than count them and the mixed brands of shells. I signed for them as 12 shotguns and 100 rounds of 12ga buckshot No SN or make. I'm sure there were a few of WW1 vintage and WW2. 😢

[@msspi764]

I worked for a US law enforcement agency out west in 1990. We had one of the WWII versions of this in the gun safe, the last of those that had been surplussed to us in the late 1940s. While I was there it was finally condemned and sent off for disposal (read cut up for scrap) since our standard was 870s. I always wondered about it. This video brought back memories.

[@monkeylee4818]

Okay, now I really want to see a video about blunderbuss.

[@greylocke01]

Same here.

[@jamesfisher9594]

What the nice lady said.

[@M.M.83-U]

I second that!

[@swietoslaw]

I would love to see whole bunch of older guns, recently I was watching forgotten weapons colt dragoon history and I would love to see it in more detail, like two hours long :P

[@hanskc3302]

I suspect, it will upear in upcoming Shotguns With Mae series.

[@DarkSeraph95]

Germany: Shotguns are inhumane and shouldn't be allowed in warfare. Also Germany: LOL lets use flamethrowers and phosphorine gas.

[@alganhar1]

Phosphorine? You mean Phosgene right? Though the first gas used was Chlorine. Know how long it took the allies to whip up the first gas mask? 5 days after the first Gas attack on the Ypres... five days.... Sure, it was crude, but it worked. Both sides and all combatants used Gas, including the Americans, the AEF certainly used Gas shells during the Meuse-Argonne. The first actual gas attack was by the French, though to be fair they used a tear agent, so it was a non lethal gas, but they still used it. The Germans were the first to use a *lethal* gas, not the first to use a gas, they were also the first to use it 'succesfully'. While it is certainly very true that the Germans used Gas more than the Entante, that was not out of unwillingness to use it on the Entante side, but down to the fact that the German Chemical industry was the worlds largest prior to the war, so they could simply manufacture more of the damned stuff than everyone else (combined as it turned out). The worst gas was not even the biggest killer, it was Mustard, a blister agent, its a nasty, nasty gas, but so long as you do not breathe it in it is not fatal (though it is painful). That shit was used not to kill, but as an area denial weapon. Not a lot of guys would be willing to trundle through an area that was covered in a layer of mustard gas... fun fact, did you know WWI gas masks were not air tight? As for flamethrowers, the Germans were far, far from the first to use flamethrowers in war. Greek Fire projectors are documented as having been used over 2,000 years ago. Various forms of Naptha based incendieries have been used in seiges since at least that time. The use of flammable liquids in war is probably about as old as someone working out that hey, this fluid burns, we can fling it at Zogs tribe over in the next valley..... Not saying the use of such weapons is not nasty, or perhaps even morally wrong, but in a war like WWI, scruples sometimes get lost in the vicious, brutal nature of the day to day fighting. The first day of the Meusse-Argonne the AEF lost more men KIA than the US military has taken in all the years they have been involved in Afghanistan and Iraq.... And for a single days losses, they were no where near the highest, the British on the First day of the Somme sufferred 19,000 dead alone, and on August 22, 1914, the French army suffered 27,000 men killed in a single day..... To put this into perspective, an estimated 91,000 men were killed by Gas during WWI on all sides, 80% of those deaths were caused by Phosgene or Biphosgene, 91,000 dead is a months fighting on the Western Front...

[@DarkSeraph95]

@@alganhar1 I don't know why I was thinking phosphorine gas

[@alganhar1]

@@DarkSeraph95 I wouldn't worry about it, I make that kind of mistake at times, I was pretty sure what you meant. I was once giving a lecture and forgot the name of an organism I had been studying for over a decade! Literally had to stand there for five minutes wracking my brains trying to remember something that was as well known to me as breathing :). Sometimes it happens, your brain decides, for whatever reason, that today it is going to embaress you!

[@thelastneanderthal3171]

alganhar1 that’s called a brain fart .

[@GreenStuffConsumer]

War historians or internet warriors: REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[@MrLulzbot]

Othais busting myths and swelling cartridges like a boss.

[@julemandenudengaver4580]

on a nother forum i was blocked for saying that the shotgun's where crap in WW1 because of the cartridge

[@vaclav_fejt]

@@julemandenudengaver4580 Probably by some grammar nazi, lol.

[@badcornflakes6374]

@@vaclav_fejt ohhhhhhh got 'em

[@mattwalters6834]

All the while, he’s swelling our cartridges in the process.

[@WhipperSnapper51]

@@mattwalters6834 per Vert! I came here to say the same thing lol

[@ewicander9045]

I think part of the reason for a fair number of fakes on these is that many guys just want to turn a 97 into a trench gun in their own collection, and then that collection eventually changes hands.

[@MaverickCulp]

ewicander9045 I was thinking the same thing. I’ve been wanting to convert my 97 to a trench gun just so I could have my own fun with it, and never to claim it was the real thing.

[@john-paulsilke893]

Yup, most are imitations and not fakes. There is a very fine difference and even if money is no object, it’s so hard to find the real deal that it’s often easier to make your own even if it was more expensive to do so. Look at retro M16’s with faux lowers usually Bushmasters, with half a brain you can spot easily because semi-auto only.

[@planescaped]

I'd make one in a heartbeat, and I'd leave the magazine hanger on because I wouldn't be trying to fool anyone, I'd just wanna do some stabby-shootin' and there's no way in hell I'd spend 2k on an old shotgun personally. >__>

[@richardkluesek4301]

I have seen advertised new copies of the 1917 Enfield bayonets and lug and heat shield assemblies, though these dont just slip over the barrel but would require removing the original beat front sight on the muzzle end and properly cutting grooves for the 3 mounting screws in the proper position and depth. It can be done.

[@orphan9767]

I have one that’s a repo riot version i added the Bayonet lug on. I re enact WW2 and everyone lives this gun. With blanks and no recoil slam fire sounds really crazy. I do agree, I have never told anyone its original and anyone who knows anything about firearms will know by looking at it.

[@nathantran8041]

Next up on the C&Rsenal bucket list: "some pointless thing that one remembers at all, just another bump in the road I'm sure but this would take until, i want to say 1911 i can't recall"

[@Quartzkensai]

whelp, there's another year added to the wait list for the silly pistol. (joking aside, I feel he is running out of other arms to talk about)

[@FuzzyBrains555]

It's been built up so much lol

[@highbrass7777]

That beautiful weapon was what made the Wild Bunch the greatest movie ever made!

[@andrewwaterman9240]

Othais' Mom: "Othais, stop that slam firing! Use your shotgun like a normal person!"

[@sethmcmanus1168]

No momma

[@mattwalters6834]

“But mommmmmm....”

[@mattwalters6834]

It’s not a phase mom

[@jimvandemoter6961]

Othias and Mae talking about slam fire reminds me of the quote from Shakespeare's "Macbeth," "sound and fury signifying nothing."

[@randymagnum143]

The sound of shot ripping through the tree foliage around you is enough to make you take cover. Also, there were films dedicated to trying to get troops to not freeze at the sound the mg42.

[@georgewhitworth9742]

To be fair, Shakespeare hadn't heard the 97 slam fire when he wrote that, haha

[@ditzydoo4378]

I loved this video, great work Othais and Mae. I have an original Winchester Model-12 Riot, and like the Model-1897 Riot have found double-00 buck is best point blank out to between 35 or 40 yards maximum for good effect. Anything past that I top of the magazine with any Foster type slug which give me accurate fire to 100 yards. And if I really want even more accurate long range firepower I use Winchester "BRI" Sabot slugs which will hold inside a 6-inch circle at 150 yards. the Ballistic Reach Industry Sabot was originally developed for law enforcement for Cylinder bore shotguns. Even though when Winchester acquired BRI and their Sabot the box now says for "rifled" chokes, or barrels which is not true, they work superbly because of the tapered tail design. They fly much like a badminton shuttle-cock in that as long as air pressure flows across the length of the projectiles tail section it will fly straight and not tumble.

[@filianablanxart8305]

The markings on BRI boxes ( long since bought out by Winchester) are " True" to the extent that they are indeed excellent accuracy in rifled bbls . From fully rifle bbl they will give one hole groups @ 50yds .

[@MC1802M]

Its pretty amazing that this is one of the very few Great War weapons that actually became MORE effective in modern times than it was in its contemporary. With modern plastic/brass shells, this thing is a monster. Imagine if they had that back then.

[@matchesburn]

They did have brass shells back then. In fact, long case brass shells being made for shotguns is because of the (frankly overblown, it wasn't as bad as Othais makes it out to be) issue with paper shells.

[@medievalarmorexptert6827]

@@matchesburn lol state the source already

[@matchesburn]

@@medievalarmorexptert6827 =ewkey3tsYOI You can stop CSing me now. Also, look up Shotgun Forums were guys are giving tutorials on wax coating paper shells and how long it's been done.

[@Player_Review]

One of the two videos I've most looked forward to since the beginning of this channel. Now, just some prominent pistol that I can't remember the name of.

[@planescaped]

I'm still waitin' on that FN2000 episode....

[@janwacawik7432]

Some Belgian .32, I'm sure.

[@liammcdonough6832]

Is it the FN1910?

[@adamheywood113]

I'd have watched this sooner but I had to do the school run. Guys I just want to say that I really love your channel, the time and energy you put into these videos must be huge. Thank you for producing such fantastic content.

[@friartuck103]

My local pawnshop has a very nice example of one of these. Has the bayonet and everything. He wants a few thousand for it. He also just had a brand new out of the box M1D sniper Garand with all accessories. I was shocked when I saw it...

[@SpecialEDy]

The shotgun. Simply the most versatile of firearms.

[@johnalan6067]

Agree, bayonet practice is a must, only way to give an accurate review of the weapon

[@ItRemindMeOfHome]

The only other time I've seen Mae that happy was when she fired the Tankgewehr.

[@eddyguizonde401]

mae: "as you know, i'm american. i own a shotgun." tsa agent: "welcome to america, here's your shotgun and your bible."

[@Yomom12388]

**sniffle** I love this country

[@chris7brook]

Amen

[@khaccanhle1930]

If that were true I would say, "Can I have a 1911 instead?"

[@kungfukitten6735]

Khắc cảnh lê NO! single action only is stupid and should be left in the 1800s DA/SA for life /s but true tho

[@Nob911]

Yeah right more like you've been marked for a full body cavity search step aside

[@jacksonmacpherson6101]

Sorry Othias, but I heard from r/historymemes that these guns were the real reason Germany surrendered

[@ricardolaza5685]

I'm sad. I suffer off sleep apnea and the smooth voice of Othaias make me fall asleep every time, even when I like the weapon and the history of it. It's pissing me off not being capable of watching an entire video without dozzing off.

[@freddieellis8449]

Finally! My favourite. Thank you so much guys! 😍😍😍

[@milamber319]

"mostly *ciiiviliised?*" made me laugh. Perfect way to put it lol.

[@monkeyship74401]

I'm thinking the word might be mostly "subdued"? If I remember any of my history correctly, the last thing you wanted was any Philippine native to be angry with you as it would tend to wind up with you having a very bad day.

[@rickn8or]

@@monkeyship74401 Sometimes "pacification" isn't as benign as it sounds.

[@ETFRoss]

"Dripping with malicious intent" needs to be a t-shirt

[@ezeakiodarmey9448]

I'd wear the shit out of that shirt.

[@jackluisortiz1832]

In 1965/66 I used to carry a 1897 and 2 M14 mag pouches filled with 00 Buck, as my airplane arm when air dropping to 5th Special Forces Camps. We had a variety of arms in the rigger shed of which an 1897 and a raft of M2 Carbines were available. I never needed it

[@warbrush]

I brought out my 1897 takedown from 1925 out to watch this video

[@blairbuskirk5460]

Aren't they all takedown models?

[@cgunugc]

Did it learn anything?

[@greylocke01]

@@blairbuskirk5460 No, there were solid framed guns which did not allow for takedown. Local pawnshop had 3 1897's only one was a takedown, the other two were sold framed. They also had a beautiful Model 12 takedown that I'm still kicking myself for not buying.

[@hquiller]

@@blairbuskirk5460 No. I have a solid frame version made in 1898. And in this video, the riot shotgun is a solid frame version. Model 12 are all takedown.

[@pilgrimm23]

Me Too! :)

[@jakeroark6718]

12 gauge trench gun has to be one of my all-time favorite and just a cool part of history.

[@elfossea13]

Personaly, as a canadian, I think those would've been extremely useful in our military's hands. Getting to the trench wasn't the problem. We used a lot of diversion tactics and often performed extremely effective night raids. we invented the ''stormtrooper''. Litteraly, the germans created that type of unit after we used it against them at vimmy (and all throughout the war but seems like when they decided to do it). Othais talks about it in the lewis gun episode if you're curious. We used A LOT of hand to hand were shotguns would have been perfect (close quarters, extreme stopping power and that bayonnet is just... beautiful) though the lucky ones had lewis guns which I'd take over that, but you had one or two guys maximum in one of those teams with that gun, the rest were guards and reloaders. If the guards, who had to defend the gunners while reloading or at any point he wasn't dealing with just the front, had a shotgun? extreeemely effective. Short range, no second shot needed, and plenty of time to reload when your gunner is cleaning up that trench. Plus we excelled in urban fighting, especially in WW2, with mousetrapping getting us in close amoung other tactics. dunno if they had shotguns at that time, though maybe, since we worked with the americans often. Although, yeeeaaah, wicked witch. Paper cartridges just suck. It's such a system killer for such a great system. sad that brass didn't make it.

[@qounqer]

You need to be Americas Scotland

[@elfossea13]

@@qounqer I'll take that as a compliment XD Also, we almost were XD I'm French-Canadian, we almost joined the American revolution. British government bribed the Catholic church to stop us. Sadly worked^^u

[@mikmik9034]

In my days (c. 1978), we used #1 Buckshot. for 32 .30 caliber pellets on target. Ithaca Model 37 shotguns without disconnectors [That meant hold the trigger back, it would fire as fast as the user pumped shells into the chamber]. A wonderful shotgun as it loaded and discarded through the bottom port. No shells tossed at your side mate, all went to ground beneath you. Later replaced by the High-Standard Model 10 "Dick Tracy" shotgun.

[@TheMartinezSasquatch]

When you said uses involving pirates I thought about grapeshot before the Blunderbus...

[@billbrydon3725]

"Spontaneous disassembly."

[@independentthinker8930]

Excellent video, full of info and history, thank you. I remember using paper shells when I was young hunting with Dad, had some swell in wet weather Mae is my favorite gun gal!!!

[@Mastercdawgx]

You need to add this video to your US small arms playlist

[@rashton5730]

Great Video Othais & Mae , always love the banter at the end but this one was extra fun.... Big wolf kiss to the Princess of Centerfire :)

[@Payne427]

I own a 1897 16 gauge hunting model and a 12 Gauge M97 Trench Model. I learned a few more things about them by watching this video. Thank you for making it.

[@Primarch359]

I want to say your promotion of the 1895 book was effective and made me buy it. Unfortunately i already bought it.

[@cheesenoodles8316]

A dense episode with names in the same episode that is only surpassed by a few phrases. Bamnerman.. Browning....Dilbert. Desicration.... A superb episode.

[@Sean-ot4zq]

I have a bolt action 12 GA shotgun I wish I cold contact either Ian or Othais about doing an episode oh well

[@lucast3006]

This is amazing. I’m just sorry I didn’t find this channel sooner. Fascinating stuff!

[@wadeallen37]

Mae is my favorite love watching her shoot 😊

[@kingneutron1]

Mae.seems like a really cool gal :^)

[@myfavoritemartian1]

On the model 10, there is an adjustment for keeping the barrel tight into the receiver. Remove the fore end and on the rear face, under the barrel on the connector strap is a screw. The screw holds the slack adjuster. You can actually make the gun feel like one solid piece of metal. In most cases, it will need disassembled and cleaned before you can adjust it.

[@shimarinlogistics6616]

51:04 The Hague Conventions is misspelled with “Hauge”.

[@panthermartin7784]

Ok..

[@deedeldeedle]

I had a model 97 and Remington Model 10. Both SN’s at the “had been over their” range for WW1. Beautiful firearms!

[@ace_of_beavers9793]

Man I love the Winchester M1897

[@leoduf6019]

I carried this gun on post 1963 and was issued full metal jacket shells. Today they use Plastic shot shells.

[@rstroute4010]

I found this tremendously informative! I had no idea the history of the shotgun in combat other than the kick-ass premise behind double 00 buck in the close confines of a trench. I know the germans complained about it at the time. Thanks for the video. Subscribed.

[@ScottRuggels]

I had one of these, a 1920's take down model in high school, but I sold it when the fore end disintegrated. I still miss it.

[@Sedan57Chevy]

Damn, you've got all the cool scattergats together for this episode! I really hope that shotgun series comes to fruition :)

[@traviseastlick5342]

New favorite history channel

[@Tinman3187]

I imagine this weapon would have been useful in night patrols due to the lack of night vision at the time. If all you can do is shoot at enemy muzzle flashes then the relative inaccuracy of 00 buck becomes an advantage as an area suppression device. You get 54 random chances to hit an enemy before reloading with 6 (9 pellet) shells versus 5 chances with a standard rifle.

[@vidard9863]

the design of the ergonomics is also different, you point shotguns, you aim rifles. you can point at something you can't see, but it is hard to aim at what you can't.

[@pilgrimm23]

Othias (and crew): Today I found in a local Pawn Shop a...yep, I am not kidding: 1897 Winchester Trench Gun. It looked JUST like your demonstration one. Thanks yo your episode I knew exactly what to check. Yes, a real one, he even had a paper trail. The price tag of $2999 was probably fair. WELL beyond my pay grade, but at least I got to hold it. Thank you for a WELL DONE episode that as usual contained more information then I could remember (I came back and re-watched it to confirm what I saw today. THANKS! PS: I own a 97 take down I inherited from a grandfather. NICE Gun.

[@gunnarhassing5875]

For those curious the nickname “blackjack” came from his working with black troops and was used as an insult. Originally another word was at the front but black replaced it.

[@exidorcyanuro]

Man, this channel is pure gold.

[@atlatlista]

Othais, something you don't cover in your history on the military use of the shotgun that I think you would find fascinating is the use of the shotgun by the Māori of New Zealand during their wars against the British, most notably at the battle of Gate Pa, where the Māori used close-range double-barreled shotgun fire to decimate an assaulting British column.

[@xb0xisbetter]

I literally just finally got my first shotgun last week. It was a 30" 1897 takedown model, manufactured in 1898. I had been holding out until I pulled the trigger on one of these specifically. It is a bit of a mutt right now when it comes to furniture, but I hope to fix that. This seems to happen to me a lot with your amazing channel. I can't wait to see this one.

[@komradeklutch6215]

"to prevent spontaneous disassembly" Well I sure would hope so.

[@georgepobi3531]

I belong to the 1st Marine division association. We had a Gunny friend in 5th Marines who used a 1897 in Korea at Chosin. He loved it.

[@Kangaxxter]

When are you going back to being the .32 pistol channel?

[@seanmac1793]

No you didn't get the memo it's now the export mauser channel

[@dannyjames4216]

Spontaneous disassembly! Love it. Well done!

[@monkeyship74401]

Great, Thanks, (yes the sarcasm is on at 11 on the dial) Now, not only do I want a Winchester 1897 shotgun with full brass ammo, I want a book about another Winchester product. And after that? I want an 1895 in 7.62X57R or 30-06. Thanks Bunches!!!!! (yes, I have just ordered the book, My wife is going to be in touch.) I'm pretty sure the only fix for this is all brass shells, OR modern plastic shells. It's just a weapon before it's time. As always I think Mae likes recoil... You should hand her an M1 and see what develops. (my daughter wants to keep my M1 so there's that.) And as always thank you for the best in educational programming.

[@monkeyship74401]

Just so you know, the book came in Tuesday... Well at least one thing is going well. How long before I can afford the Rifle and or Shotgun?????

[@PhuVet]

Takedown guns were popular because trains would not charge you for a bag that fit under your seat. They required all long guns to be put in a case. This is why they were called Train guns. I witnessed a parachute grenade that was shot out of the air by a mossberg 590.

[@whydat684]

Great job guys. I think I read in WW2 they had alot of full brass left over from WW1. In Korea and vietman the 97 still served but plastic shells were common.Love you site.

[@nicholaspietrzak9992]

"sentinels is a word for guards"

[@mattwalters6834]

A fancy word for “guards”. 🧐

[@DiggingForFacts]

On a 'dem 3 dollar werds, cuz it's ain't even a 2 dollar werd.

[@Outlaw4-3]

I love my Trench gun it was one of my favorite to add to the collection

[@8aleph]

In the early 80's my issue long arm in the USAF was an M-12 trench gun

[@jela1277]

I'm not even a gun dude and I'm sold on this chanel. Othais is such a cool name too, like Damn!

[@GreenStuffConsumer]

Why tf would you put a bayonet on a shotgun? America: *SILENCE*

[@limozinis7854]

When you’re out of shells and there someone in shotgun range

[@GreenStuffConsumer]

@@limozinis7854 uwU

[@planescaped]

America: Silence? .... _attaches a suppressor to bayoneted shotgun_

[@GreenStuffConsumer]

@@planescaped now it's an axe

[@richardellis7484]

No no no. We put a shotgun on a sword. That's the American way

[@jmpetersrn]

You truly have some of the best historical gun content around. Thanks for the hard work and dedication.

[@n0tquitesane]

At about 19:30 it sounds suspiciously like how a bump stock works. Early 'semi-semi automatic assault weapon'?

[@RhodeIslandWildlife]

If you've never tried to research something in depth, you cant even begin to imagine the work involved. Very well done, I left with a new appreciation of my 1897 (Commercial 1909 rev D takedown) Load up a box of those Magtech full brass shotshells, you will love them.

[@joed2392]

I've wanted one of those Trench Sweeper's, since I was 10 !! Great review guy's & gal's !!! PS: As to slam-fire.... Maybe y'all could stage a small staggered group of 5 full length silhouette targets. To see how a full magazine +1, of 00 buckshot pellets. Make their mark at 25 & 50 yards !!

[@ZanyZed]

The synopsis of my viewership was spot on lol. I do like the minute details about guns I don't own.

[@rednecksniper4715]

I also heard a story idk if it’s true that the army used several long barrel shotguns like the 97 and Remington model 11 to shoot down carrier pigeons

[@alganhar1]

Now this is one I have also heard, my Great Grandfather mentioned that several of his officers actually handed out sporting shotguns to some of the better shots in the Company for that specific reason, but they were loaded with birdshot and specifically for killing the pigeons, his stories have been backed up by other accounts I have read, and not only of the British, but also the Germans, French, Canadians, and probably most of the other combatants as well.

[@Legitpenguins99]

@@alganhar1 than its possible (or probable that at least a few guys did anyway) the 97 was loaded with birdshot on occasion for "AA" (anti avian)

[@owenwolfco.8344]

Now this, I want. For an original trench variant they’re about $1,300 - $2,000 on certain auction sites, but I think it’s well worth it.

[@Win-lr4ix]

Finally a great video of one of the coolest guns ever ,Winchester model 97 trench gun.

[@Puckerupbuttercup261]

“But to what effect?” Oh boy!! Lemme tell you! To great effect!!!! Poor Germans complained mightily! I wish I had a true solid-framed trench gun, but the best I could find was a 1924 mfg solid framed 1897 “Riot Gun” version. Love it! BTW it will hold 6, 2 3/4” rds in the magazine tube.

[@mrjockt]

The British Army finally got around to using shotguns in combat in the 1950’s, they purchased a number of Browning auto shotguns for use by troops in Malaya when on jungle patrols, however they didn’t make any substantial modifications to the guns, they even kept the full length barrel.

[@CommodoreFluffy]

respect for skepticism of American imperialism and content warming.

[@therugburnz]

I'm not a Shotgun user. I've never fired more than a .410 break barrel. I don't care because this is great information about martial shotguns and the history of their use.

[@MachoMadness69420]

Mae is losing her touch. That's a really poor grouping.

[@DNulrammah]

It looked as if she was not holding the butt tightly enough against her shoulder.

[@silvermediastudio]

It must be that loose chin-weld and eyes-closed shooting technique. What a joke, they could at least have a competent shooter for the demonstrations.

[@mysticwizard1943]

@@silvermediastudio You realize it's in slow motion right? She's blinking, ya know, cause she just discharged a powerful, loud weapon that exploded and kicked her in the shoulder all in a fraction of a second. I challenge you to not blink even once when firing a 12ga. and link a video of the HD slow motion footage in your next comment. We'll wait, ya schmuck.

[@silvermediastudio]

@@mysticwizard1943 Oh look, Captain Saveahoe to the rescue. And no, we usually don't blink when shooting trap/skeet/sporting clays, kinda gotta keep your eyes open to catch the second clay.

[@mysticwizard1943]

@@silvermediastudio I dont see a video

[@ditzydoo4378]

The practical way to shoot both the Model 97 and 12 in slam-fire is from a low hip-height position. I've done this with both my Riot Model 12 and Field Model 1897. It is quite easy to stay on targets out to 30-yards with a fire shot string of 2-3/4 inch 00-Buck.