Ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia? Where was Writing Invented? (3500-3000 BC)

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Writing has been an essential part of civilization, but where the first written language originate? Most have concluded that it was in southern Mesopotamia by a people known as the Sumerians, but there is compelling evidence that writing may have first been invented in Egypt. Take a look at the evidence and arguments for and against this and let me and the community of viewers know what you think in the comments.
Contents:
00:00 Intro
02:05 Origins of Egyptian Hieroglyphs and Writing
04:47 Egypt or Sumer - Where did Writing Originate?
08:36 Thank You and Patrons
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Quick History of Bronze Age Languages of Ancient Mesopotamia (Sumerian, Akkadian, Elamite, Kassite)
• Quick History of Bronz...
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#egypt #ancienthistory #bronzeage

[@WanaxTV]

Great video Cy! Impossible to say really. The margin of error in dating is too big to decisively conclude when debating something that goes that far back (5000+ years ago), plus the earliest 'discovered' writings are almost certainly not the actual earliest writings that each respective civilization created. I prefer to give both of them equal credit!

[@bosertheropode5443]

Love you're work by the way

[@HistorywithCy]

I agree, there are still so many unknowns and it's hard to date these things. There are still so many prehistoric sites that need to be excavated that who knows, more early forms of writing could still be discovered. Thanks for watching my friend and hope all is well on your end! We should chat soon!

[@HistorywithCy]

@@bosertheropode5443 me too! @WanaxTV is one of the most underrated channels on KZbin and one of my favorites!

[@faithlesshound5621]

What's the point of asking the class which system they they think came first?

[@WanaxTV]

@@bosertheropode5443 Thanks, appreciate it!

[@todayilearnedabout]

I tend to lean towards the 2 languages developing independently of each other. Cuniform is primary lines and hieroglyphics are depictive. From most stuff I have learned pre-dynastic Egypt was relatively isolated. Such exciting debate as to which came first! Great video.

[@HistorywithCy]

I'm also in the same camp and believe that the two more or less developed independently of each other. Thanks for watching!

[@alecstirner2412]

I guess it was aliens ;) BTW both egyptian and mesopotamian writing systems started as pictographic; Two different civilization that had to face similar administration problems came up with a similar problem solution; I think that how they evolved it's mostly due the the main media chosen i.e. papyrus in egypt and clay in mesopotamia

[@froggystyle642]

@@alecstirner2412 Yeah, an example of proto-cuneiform is the "head with a bowl" pictogram meaning "to eat", which eventually gave way primary lines.

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@vidren_14]

@@HistorywithCy My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@user-jwill]

Personally I think their writing evolved independently like convergent evolution. I dunno which was first but I think it was very close in time because their civilizations had evolved to be so complex as to require writing 🤷‍♂️

[@HistorywithCy]

I'm in the same camp...thanks for watching!

[@justicetruth5456]

Convergent evolution? How?

[@andysawyer647]

I think writing started long ago in North/Central Africa. People don't understand the cultural continuity of the Nile.

[@froggystyle642]

I suppose complexity is a subjective term. The American civilizations didn't develop writing (apart from the Maya, around 3rd century BC) and were extremely complex. I'd go with you on convergent evolution for this reason. Although only the Maya did it, they were (obviously) isolated from any other culture in the so called "old world" which also did it, albeit well before them (I'd argue a greater population/ more intermingling cultures/trade, as well as agricultural fertility would be the key drivers for it happening in the middle east at an earlier point in time). On the Sumer vs Egypt question, I'm on the fence really. Apologies for the poor construction of the above paragraph, it's a Sunday morning 🤦‍♂

[@justicetruth5456]

@@froggystyle642 How do you explain Cocaine in the body of Egyptian Mummies? No contact? Convergent evolution? Makes no sense. It does not exist.

[@richardarcher7177]

Given that the systems are so different and the earliest examples of both date from more or less the same time my guess is that it's a case of two different peoples, each having the same problem, independently come up with a solution that suits them best that just happen to be different. In the long run (use and development over millennia) certain scripts last better because they're more adaptable whereas others are attuned to a particular language. Cuneiform and not Heiroglyphics became the written language of diplomacy for the bronze age probably because the former was adaped more readily to other languages and could be written on a durable clay tablet more readily available to most peoples. It's noteworthy that the Ancient Levant - the place where they cultures if the two systems ended up butting heads - was also the source of the Canaanite/Phoenician aplhabetic script we use today. It would also be interesting to speculate on what influence the Eteocretan (Minoan) or Mycenean Greek script had on these developments as well (if any). In any case - another excellent video from History with Cy.

[@andysawyer647]

The PIE culture took over rhe Ubaid culture (Summerians). We only know of then because of the Akkadians from the same PIE culture. To me the Summerians or Ubaid would be a mix of Nile valley and harrapan cultures.

[@adam-k]

The developed systems are different the early forms are not.

[@jennypoussin3866]

I would like to think both evolved in parallel, since there must have been some contacts between those two glorious civilizations. Another great video thanks!

[@Scribe13013]

yeah!!!

[@nikosmihalo4706]

first writing system is in europe and in africa in europe we have found vinca writing system of 6000 bc is in Danube river we have found and in Greece writing system of 6000 bc we have found and in ancient thrace writing system of 6000 bc and in france of 28.000 bc like and in africa.

[@holdingpattern245]

It also seems quite likely that Elam was involved too, since proto-Elamite fits into that same timeframe.

[@Wayfaringwolf]

I think it's best to describe findings similar to these as the 'earliest known', as it is unlikely that what has been discovered are the earliest examples.

[@Topicushistory]

Totally I wouldn't be surprised if they find another find some day that would push those proposed dates back further still.

[@SkyFly19853]

I think it's Sumer since Ancient Egyptians used pictures as an alphabet...

[@HistorywithCy]

You know I'll admit I'm a bit biased towards Mesopotamia because I've been studying that region for so long and was always taught that the Sumerians invented writing (remembering S. N. Kramer's book History Begins at Sumer which I read perhaps 15 years ago!), but the arguments made by Dr. Dreyer are indeed compelling. Early proto-cuneiform was also a pictographic script so in that sense there are similarities between the two. Interesting stuff! Thanks for watching, really appreciate it!

[@SkyFly19853]

@@HistorywithCy Oh... That's interesting... So, it might be both ways... 🤔 You are welcome, btw.

[@charlesspeaksthetruth4334]

Another great video Cy. I been meaning to ask, have you ever done a video on Nabta Playa? Possibly the oldest astronomical megalithic site in the world? That's now considered to be at the southern tip of the Egypt border but in ancient times was considered to be Lower Nubia or The Nubian desert.

[@HistorywithCy]

No, not a full video but I mentioned it I think in an older predynastic Egypt or the Kush/Nubia video (I forget which one). It'd be an interesting topic to delve into further. Thanks for the suggestion!

[@tommyspeed1434]

Wasn´t there writing discovered in Georgia in 2020 that was thought to be the oldest . I was there. Thank you for all your content ,I really enjoy watching

[@StellusBattersea]

If that's the one that i'm thinking of, and I had to google it, it was dated back to the 11th or 10th century BC, making it roughly 3,000 years old. Cuneiform dates to between 3,500-3,000BC, mamking it anywhere between 5500-5,000+ years in age.

[@neva_nyx]

Cherokee symbols were designed after European contact by one individual in a very short period of time. It is nothing like the Latin based languages. Egypt may have done the same after seeing the chicken scratch of merchandise managers counting products to and from Mesopotamia. 🤷‍♀️

[@MrWolfstar8]

Writing is one of those social techs that humans tend to quickly adopt due to the obvious advantages.

[@dg-hughes]

A weird thing could have occurred. Egyptian hieroglyphs repurposed by Phoenicians the concept made its way to Greeks, then to Romans and then to Vikings. The Vikings were in eastern Canada in the year 1000 imagine if they left writing there. The first nations; Mi'kmaq, Maliseet and extinct Beothuk or Inuit there may have figured out what it was and made their own writing system. Actually a Mi'kmaq friend showed me a writing system or technically a logram they used before Europeans arrived at least verified to at least 1,800 years ago. The call it gomgwejui'gasultijig which means "suckerfish script".

[@user-eb5ge2bk9y]

Sumar of course did you count little images of animal and other stuff writing system

[@jeevso7433]

one of the best history channels on this site

[@HistorywithCy]

Thank you, I'm honored! More on the way, stay tuned and thanks for watching!

[@historybuff7491]

If there was any borrowing of writing, it could only be the concept of writing, not the writing system itself. However, historically, there are many examples of independent developments of nearly identical concepts and actual tools. So, it seems just as likely that writing was invented independently in these two places, especially since their systems are vastly different.

[@HistorywithCy]

Yes, the concept of having signs and pictures to represent words might have come from one or the other, but I also believe that the actual scripts were developed independently. Thanks for watching!

[@SobekLOTFC]

Eeeeey- new History with Cy. It's a great day! 😊

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, hope you enjoy it!

[@2logj]

Nice video about where and when Writing originated.Perhaps we should also compare the writings not only of Egypt and Sumer but also of Harrapa. Harrapan script are much older to some Sumerian scripts.We need to compare all three together.

[@raminsadeghi7358]

Thanks Very nice video as usual

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it and more on the way...including Elam! Stay tuned and thanks for watching!

[@ancientsitesgirl]

I just watched, brilliant!❤

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks! By the way, Dynasty XIII coming up, stay tuned and thanks for watching!

[@AndreLuis-gw5ox]

You are learning portuguese? My condolences! Haha jokes aside, thank you for the new video! It helps me keep focused at work

[@HistorywithCy]

Haha yes, I can actually a speak a decent amount from living in Brasil for about 4 years, but as I've not been there since 2015, my Portuguese is getting a bit rusty. Thanks for watching and hope all is well on your end!

[@robbabcock_]

Great stuff, Cy! It's probably that we'll never really know which was first; it's likely lost in the mists of time.

[@HistorywithCy]

Yeah unless we have a time machine, or some discoveries with even earlier writing are uncovered, the jury will still be out. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it and stay tuned for more!

[@jamielondon6436]

@@HistorywithCy Much older writings have been discovered in the Danubian area.

[@padmagovindaswamy9058]

Good content Good narration

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, appreciate the feedback!

[@abdelra7man87]

I am Egyptian so I might be biased. Aside from which one was first, I believe both were independelty develped.

[@vazak11]

Interesting!

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

[@henkstersmacro-world]

Thank you Cy, don't know who was first but I've learned something new, just after waking up😁👍👍👍

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks my friend, always great to learn new things...enjoy your day and thanks for watching!

[@GuavaConQueso]

I know it's not a big empire or even a popular early civilization but will you ever do any videos on pre Roman pre Carthage iberia?

[@adrianokury]

We usually take writing for granted. But its invention happened so few times in mankind's history, it's amazing... Even the cuneiform was used to write clearly unrelated languages, with the syllabic Sumerian system inadequate for Acadian for example.

[@thadsul]

Cy! Sempre que vier ao Brasil, em especial ao Rio de Janeiro, seja muito bem-vindo! I didn't know you learned portuguese or visited our historical sites

[@HistorywithCy]

Sim, trabalhava e morava no Brasil por quase 4 anos, a maioria do tempo na Sampa, mas morei no Rio de Janeiro por ses meses. No meu coracao, sou carioca! Meu lugar favorito no Rio? BB Lanches em Leblon...melhor acai no mundo! Talvez vou visitar janeiro o feverero...te aviso! Valeeeeu amigo, thanks for watching!

[@thadsul]

@@HistorywithCy vem sim, fevereiro tem carnaval e faz calor, ótimo pra tomar um açaí

[@maykonjunkes6027]

@@thadsul Poxa, é sacanagem convidar alguém para o verão carioca com seus 59C, hahahaha...

[@maykonjunkes6027]

​@@HistorywithCy Wow, even 'Cyrus The Great' loves açaí!

[@roykay4709]

Thanks!

[@HistorywithCy]

Thank YOU for watching and your support, really appreciate it!

[@roykay4709]

@@HistorywithCy - finally to where I can make contributions to the people who have been creating. I especially like your prolific entries, including areas usually not even mentioned.

[@HistorywithCy]

@@roykay4709 Thank you, that means a lot that you enjoy this sort of content! Lots more on the way, stay tuned and thanks again!

[@Lufe6301]

Great information. You would think if (either) of the two societies were aware of, or copying the others need for writing there would have been some similarities between the two. This seems to be the case in other parts of the world where civilizations near each other may have different languages but use a base system to write the words they use.

[@Topicushistory]

What a difficult question I would say the first writings from both regions developed within a very short space of time of each other no more than a 100 years at most. One would have started doing it and the other would have come up with another system of their own. Both needed it for accounting taxes, recording of commodities and transactions. Actual writing in terms of stories, history and prose came later.

[@promiscuous5761]

Thank you.

[@HistorywithCy]

You're welcome!

[@erikprank4611]

Sumerian Lexical lists would also be an interesting topic to cover a more thoroughly.

[@channel_archistoriac]

I heard an opinion that there are no cultural levels under the Ancient Egyptian cultural level, that it came there in the ready made form and didn't develop there.

[@ALIKN1-1]

Egyptian knows mesopotamia is the origin but due to Nasser these claims were established

[@harwn999]

They developed on their own and until a historian, archeologist, or linguist show a suemrian tablet with true writing that isn’t “proto writing” that isn’t giving substance grammar and isn’t just for an accounting system but not conveying thought. They never show and have yet to show the Sumerian text that supposedly dates to 3500 BCE. The Kish tablet only has proto writing, he isn’t conveying thought, Egypt tomb UJ is clearly conveying thought on the tags (Buto etc). And they can’t truly dare the true writing either based on recent scholastic sources. Until they find a suemrian true writing artifact then they should never place it ahead of Egypt until evidence is found. There are many biases, narratives and agendas in the academic world.

[@LuisAldamiz]

The so-called Vinca script (a diverse array of likely ancient writings from the Balcans) is older, dated to as early as the 6th millenium BCE (Dispilio tablet). The Iberian script (or a primitive form of it) may have been used as early as the 4th millennium BCE, what competes with both Sumerian and Egyptian writing systems in terms of antiquity, vide: forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/09/chalcolithic-iberian-script.html

[@HistorywithCy]

You know, I want to do a video on the Vinca culture and other areas of southeastern Europe, just haven't got around to researching the topic in depth. Recently I got a book on Lepenski Vir from a used book shop and thumbed through that...fascinating stuff that I need to research more! Thanks for watching!

[@LuisAldamiz]

@@HistorywithCy - Lepenski Vir is cool but it's hardly related to the Neolithic cultures of the area which (arguably) first developed writing of some sort. They seem to be even unrelated to local Paleolithic and represent some sort of intrusion from Ukraine rather. As for Vinca culture, the term "Vinca script" is somewhat of a misnomer or common place that doesn't really describes the whole phenomenon. As I said before, the oldest text is from Dispilo in West Macedonia, Greece, which AFAIK was culturally related to Vinca, however there are other texts further East in Bulgaria (Gradeshnitsa tablets), which is another quite different cultural group (most related to Central European "Danubian Neolithic" instead). Another important first development happening in the Balcans (same cultures approx.) was the first ever bronze (and quality tin bronze in fact, not that poisonous arsenic ersatz). In this case however, even if Vinca was involved too, most of it is found in Bulgaria. Vide: forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2014/01/first-ever-bronze-was-smelt-in-balcans.html Neolithic Bulgaria was quite close to achieving all civilization traits: advanced metallurgy, writing, even monarchy (Varna burials) were present. Urbanization was however less advanced as far as I can tell. Critical here is the Karanovo Tell of NW Thrace, whose thick stratigraphy encompasses all pre-Indoeuropean periods: early (Vasconic) Neolithic (red-beige painted pottery), middle (Tyrsenian, Vinca-like) Neolithic (black-beige painted pottery) and late Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Bronze (Vasconic) Danubian-derived and Cucuteni-related Neolithic. It's a complicated subject because it's prehistory and lacks any obvious relation to later history (the flood... erm, the Indoeuropeans... flattened it all), unlike what happens in Egypt and nowadays also in Mesopotamia, where late prehistory is largely just the prelude of known history. But if you truly want to get into it, I strongly advise to dig into all the region, notably also Bulgaria and Greece. Cucuteni further north (Romania-Moldova-Ukraine) is also fascinating and is somewhat related to the cultures of Bulgaria but is more a peripheral story relative to the Balcans, where some of the most important advances of Humanity may have happened first (and maybe spread from there in a refugee scatter after the invasion by the Indoeuropeans).

[@loke6664]

There is a third possible option, the Vinča symbols (also known as the Danube script). Those aren't proven to be writing so we can't be sure and if they were, they were only used to write short sentences, names and words, no anything longer. So however was the slightly later Indus valley script so it should still counts if they indeed have meaning and isn't just decorative. The Indus valley script are a while after the others so it wasn't first at least. The Vinča symbols showed up a couple of hundred years before the other 2 so there is a possibility neither of the 2 contenders invented writing first. I do believe they were invented without influence from eachother though, the only likeness is that both of them are writing systems. Both had good reasons to invent a way to record things since the kingdoms started to become large and writing is more or less required in that case. Trying to memorize what all jars contain and who you are storing them for in an actual city is far from easy and what happens if the person who know the order dies? That is not even considering taxes which certainly requires writing to really work. It is kinda hard to prove which came first but new finds might prove one or the other in the future (and if the Vinča symbols is writing or just decorations for that matter, I am leaning towards them not being writing but it is impossible to be sure. Some linguistics experts have looked on them and said that they could be).

[@Texasmade74]

The Vinca culture definitely had a written script and the Indus Valley civilization is up there with Egypt and sumer

[@loke6664]

@@Texasmade74 They might have, but at this moment we aren't sure. If we could find something with a bit of longer writing on it would be proven. I think there is a lot of more archaeology just waiting for us in that area and it is a shame it doesn't get as much attention as many other areas. As for the Indus valley civilization it was an important and ancient civilization but their script was later then cuneiform and hieroglyphs so it depends on what you mean with "up there".

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@loke6664]

@@vidren_14 What does that have to do with writing? Don't tell me every single archaeologist since people started to excavate the area in the mid 19th century is part of a conspiracy and have hidden all the writings, that is more far fetched then the galactic beings part. Now, I don't have any problem with a 15 000 year old town from the area, that is certainly plausible. Jericho is 9000 and Boncurlu tarla is 11 500 . But the mainstream media keeping quit on something they would earn money on revealing? That doesn't sound very likely. And any archaeologist worth their salt would love to excavate a 15 000 year old town. Do you think they all are part of a world wide conspiracy? I'm sorry but "the main stream media" and "the main stream archaeologists" are conspiring is rather silly claims. Something like this would be in their interest to reveal. God kings is certainly in the culture of the area and claiming your lineage came from the sky (or the underworld as some did) is not really evidence that they did in either case, most cultures thought the Gods came from either of those 2. I sincerely doubt they said they came from "the galaxy" though, rather the heavens. But I am curious, can you show us some example of their writings? Because it would look nothing like cuneiform which we have rather good evidence gradually evolved around 5 000 years ago (and hieroglyphs dito).

[@mikehart5619]

Interesting video. It really shows that even though we continue to learn more, we don't know a lot of things and considering how long ago it was may never know for sure. I assume that the Egyptians and Sumerians developed writing about the same time independently of each other and did so to meet similar needs as their civilizations became more complex.

[@andysawyer647]

It would make the most sense that writing and language came from hunter gathers. Look up the Hadza or San and see how they hunt. You also have to understand that Medu Netjer was the sacred language of Ta-Meri, but the common written form in Nubia.

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@chubbymoth5810]

Writing obviously evolved from trade and the requirement of traders to keep account of things and send messages to remote employees. No doubt some court official saw the use of that and would have introduced it at court. Or possibly a court requiring higher volumes of goods would have developed it's own version.

[@faithlesshound5621]

Why must it have been traders? An ordinary housewife who has more than one identical storage jar needs to know what's in each, and how old it is. If more than one person works in her kitchen, memory alone becomes less reliable, especially if the jars are easy to move around. They need to mark the jars in some way! That applies as much to 21st century Tupperware as to prehistoric earthenware. How do illiterate people cope nowadays?

[@micha2909]

I think writing developed independently in Egypt, Sumer and the Indus Valley.

[@Amadeu.Macedo]

Great video! This topic has been highly debated throughout sites such as Quora, of which I am a member. As such, given my inescapable love of Ancient Mesopotamia (particularly Sumer and Assyria), I have no doubt that the cuneiform script was the first known human writing system! Naturally, I confess that I am relatively biased on this matter...

[@jamielondon6436]

It was predated (and probably influenced) by 1500 years by the Danubian culture script, though.

[@johnnysmall]

Wow just rewatched the Scorpion king video last night where you mentioned this! Thats crazy lol

[@HistorywithCy]

Man I've been meaning to watch that movie for the longest time! Heard it's interesting...not historically accurate, but interesting. Thanks for watching!

[@johnnysmall]

@@HistorywithCy from what i remember from when i was a kid it’s entertaining for sure, but i don’t think you’re missing out on much having not seen it :D

[@HistorywithCy]

Yeah that's what people have told me but I still want to check it out. Heard there's a guy in it called "the Akkadian."

[@johnnysmall]

@@HistorywithCy oh that’s cool must have forgotten that might have to rewatch as well now haha

[@bkohatl]

In an abstract sense, isn't Lascaux Cave Paintings of handprints symbolic writing, a symbol of individuals whose prints they are, going back 15,000 years.

[@holdingpattern245]

You can find very ancient symbols, but writing is a type of language, if it isn't a language then it isn't writing. (Also, cave symbols go back 40,000 years.)

[@devinsmith4790]

I'd say both scripts were probably invented roughly the same time, and we can never be certain who came up with proto-writing first. I'd also say that while it's possible Egypt might have been influenced by the Proto-Cuneiform of Sumer, it's also possible they conceived of writing independently. It wouldn't be an alien concept, we know that China and the pre-Columbian civilizations of Mesoamerica invented writing independently after all.

[@AngryHistorian87]

I think that Ancient Egyptian writing developed differently from Sumerian writing. However, I am NOT saying that they did not have contact with one another (they did). I do believe that they developed simultaneously, whilst separated from each other if that makes sense.

[@blain20_]

The first rulers of Egypt answered to the ruler of Sumer. They came from there before settling on the Nile.

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@stefanodadamo6809]

Writing was likely born in multiple places, several times, and abandoned. One of the most important cradles must have been the Danubian culture of Balkan Europe in the Vth millennium BC, which seems from vague archaelogical hints to have developed the first hyeroglyphic script.

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

As every school boy knows, writing was invented in Sumer around 3200-3300 BC. {:o:O:}

[@HistorywithCy]

True, that is what we're taught in school, but there is a growing group of scholars starting to challenge this... interesting arguments on both sides. Thanks for watching!

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

@@HistorywithCy Irving Finkel would disagree with you. 😉 {:o:O:}

[@HistorywithCy]

You mean with the Egyptologists. I'm not supporting one or the other in this video. As for Irving Finkel, he's one of my contemporary idols! I recently read his book on the first ghost and ghost stories...fascinating stuff!

[@Texasmade74]

@@HistorywithCy what's the name of his book on ghosts I may buy it?

[@HistorywithCy]

@@Texasmade74 it's called "The First Ghosts." I got it on Kindle from Amazon but you can also get a hard cover copy (which might be out of print). A paperback version is supposed to come out next year.

[@markwagdyel-magrisy6620]

I personally think that the title of the oldest writing systems should go to Egypt because Symbols with phonetic values were introduced into the Cuneiform script around 3100B.C before that was the proto-Cunieform (3500B.C.) Script which had no phonetic values but rather many symbols and signs that represent items to keep record of taxes and belongings. Meanwhile, in Egypt Phonetic values were used as early as King Scorpion I and tomb U-j dating back to 3200B.C - 3400 B.C, these symbols found in tomb U-j were not just pictographs like those found in mesopotamia but were actually symbols with phonetic values that described the name of the city they came from. I watch a documentary about predynastic Egypt and in it, Gunther Dryer read few of them and clearly stated that such form of writing never existed in mesopotamia before the Jemdet-Nasr period (3100 B.C.)

[@at0mly]

lmao you mean the guy who discovered u-j thinks it's the oldest and therefore he should get credit for discovering the oldest? no bias i am sure.

[@markwagdyel-magrisy6620]

@@at0mly he did not think, he actually read it in the documentary. Even if you take the most recent dating, it still predates phonetic writing in Mesopotamia.

[@charlesspeaksthetruth4334]

People forget that before sumerians came up with cuneiform, they started off with pictographic writing. Maybe the Egyptians came up with pictographic writing that heavily influenced the Sumerians before they switched over and came up with cuneiform.

[@HistorywithCy]

That is one argument, that they got the concept of writing from Mesopotamia via traders who journeyed to the Levant and eastern Mediterranean. I personally think that both systems developed independently. Thanks for watching!

[@Texasmade74]

@@HistorywithCy I strongly believe they were created independently

[@HistorywithCy]

@@Texasmade74 Ah I understand now. That's an interesting point. I do know that most scholars of prehistoric and ancient Near Eastern history believe that people likely migrated from the east, west and south into Egypt and not really the other way around, so the argument is that if one influenced the other, it would have been people from the east, west and south influencing the Egyptians. But the other way is possible too, I just haven't read about it. Interesting stuff nevertheless! Thanks for commenting!

[@HistorywithCy]

@@Texasmade74 Same.

[@_robustus_]

The Ubaid people who came before the Sumerians, made pictograms that predate both Egypt and Sumer.

[@ArturHolanda91]

You speak Portuguese, nice! Greetings from a Brazilian viewer.

[@whycantiremainanonymous8091]

I recall reading once about a very early find of the Indus Valley script that can rival the early Egyptian and Sumerian finds. That was in a news article, so it might have been very preliminary or totally misinterpretted. But I wonder if anyone here knows anything else about it.

[@PacdemonStudios1]

According to Wikipedia some people think they may have figured out a Dravidian-based reading of some inscriptions, but it's very preliminary and they themselves stress that it isn't proof of anything yet

[@faithlesshound5621]

They've been known about for at least a century and are usually called "seals," but may have been labels for goods. They disappear from the archaeological record a few centuries before the end of that civilization - did they just switch to perishable materials? No one has been able to verify whether the symbols encode a Munda, Dravidian or Indo-Aryan language: that seems to be more a matter of faith at present. Similar seals have been found beside the Persian Gulf, and those have slightly different combinations of symbols: do they encode different languages? Do they have practical or commercial information, or are they religious amulets? Some may depict mythological scenes. I have a vague memory that a few may be associated with objects resembling tefillin.

[@Hfil66]

I would guess that given the differences they were developed independently. The thing that I feel has not been adequately addressed is how written grammar developed, because it is the advent of grammar that to my mind distinguishes a mere recording system from a full blown written language.

[@HistorywithCy]

Interesting points. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it and more on the way, stay tuned!

[@joeshmoe8345]

History of writing is def top of the list

[@HistorywithCy]

Something I want to delve into more for sure! Thanks for watching, really appreciate it!

[@SilverSquirrel]

I think the pot marks might be to help tally up the number of pots each porter carried, like signatures to make sure the workers pay was correct.

[@HistorywithCy]

Hmm, interesting and totally possible. Thanks for watching and commenting!

[@freefall9832]

Labels for who was taxed by head bully of the day

[@RatzoMcFatso]

Good video. Nice comparison of writing systems. I have say I think cuneiform was first. It lends itself to so many languages. Egyptian hieroglyphs are unique to ancient Egyptian.

[@HistorywithCy]

Yeah I'm a bit biased towards cuneiform too, but that's only because I've been studying it longer and was taught it's the oldest, but I have to admit the Egyptian case is quite compelling. I'm not an expert and can't really give a qualified opinion on the subject, just that I'm impressed with both!

[@maykonjunkes6027]

É uma surpresa muito boa saber que você está estudando português! (wish you luck with the thousands of verb conjugations: even natives don't master them...)

[@HistorywithCy]

Oi amigo, espero que vc esteja muito bem! Sim, na verdade posso falar porque eu morava no Brasil por 4 anos e aprendi la. Mas preciso melhorar e aprender mas! Thanks for watching.... valeu!!!!!!!!!

[@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526]

I think both writing systems developed in parallel but following an older background. Way before writing systems being invented there were already mathematical symbols in clay tokens. They were created circa 7.000 b.c for commerce during the neolithic and its use was already widespread circa 3.400 b.c. everywhere. Probably both civilizations got the idea of writing signs from there but developed separately, having different concepts and insights of how represent animals, words,objects,ideas,etc It is also possible that other writing systems existed before Egypt and Sumer ,following another parallel evolutions.See the Vinca symbols.

[@fatosdour2518]

Your opinion is very insightful! 👍

[@toddmaek5436]

I have a feeling that the more Golbeke Tepe is unearthed that we will see writing that predates both Egypt and Sumer

[@LuisAldamiz]

Just look at so-called Vinca script, which includes texts from areas unrelated to Vinca culture in the Balcans, notably the Dispilio tablet because of its extreme antinquity (6th millennium BCE). Surely the first languages written were ancient Tyrsenian (Vinca-Dimini cultural complex) and ancient Vasconic (Bulgarian cultures such as Gradeshnitsa). I can't find anything older but Iberian script may also be as old as Egyptian and Sumerian ones (4th millennium) based on recent resarch on isolated "writings" on clay objects. Said that, writing is not necessary for other kind of acomplishments, not even farming was in the case of Göbekli Tepe (affluence and some sort of "potlach culture" may have been more important at least in this impressive site from Kurdistan).

[@HistorywithCy]

Oh one of the sites I hope to visit on my next trip to Turkey... Thanks for watching, really appreciate it and hope they continue excavating G. Tepe as I feel they've only scratched the surface of the area.

[@incasolja1]

One of the examples of cuneiform presented in this video looked auspiciously like the us flag. I looked it up and the one glyph that resembles the one i saw in this video means “house” kinda interesting. Coincidence? The eight pointed glyph means “god or heaven” and it became the symbol of ishtar and inanna who were godesses of sex among other things and would be the parallel to the morning store venus in greek and roman religions and then later lucifer in christianity who would the adopt the eight pointed star as their own symbol (the chi roe symbol originally but then intersected with a horozontol cross for obv purposes). So who knows

[@fatosdour2518]

Maybe they could have influenced each other via intermediary peoples. Lower Egypt could have been the place where these ideas could have been exchanged.

[@ArthurSum]

BUT, the oldest traces of civilization in Egypt are in the south..so..Don't think so...

[@Rog5446]

Are hieroglyphs letters or words, as I seem to remember someone saying they were sounds, where as Cuneiform is supposed to be words?

[@GloBoyLoLo]

They're words that are represented by sound

[@vikingdemonpr]

Egypt was a pretty isolationist civilization. I would think the 2 systems developed independently around the same time

[@HistorywithCy]

Yeah I believe the same, though I'm a little biased towards Mesopotamia being slightly earlier... let's see what archaeologists find in the future! More on the way, stay tuned and thanks for watching!

[@mumblingmercian]

I don’t think we’ll ever know exactly when the first writing system was invented. We might be able to figure out where if we find an example that is significantly older than any other current know examples, but even then how do we know if the first written systems were actually written down on perishable material? There are so many ancient cultures that had large towns develop that it’s hard to definitively prove. We just have to go on the evidence we do have. For myself the evidence is slightly stronger for Mesopotamians being first, but it’s really close and the margin of error has an overlap.

[@chalinofalcone871]

"It seems now fairly clear that there were three systems of writing in Egypt, and each of these is first known with a different race. The geometrical marks of the alphabetic system appear with the first prehistoric people, who seem to have been Libyans. They belonged to the west, and were the source of all the Mediterranean alphabets. Secondly, the later race of prehistoric times, seems to have come in from Syria, and brought in the word-signs, or ideographs, several of which used by them were common in later Egypt. Lastly, the dynastic race brought in letter-signs, by a group of which a word was spelled phonetically. The latter two systems mixed together became the later hieroglyphic system, while the oldest western alphabet continued in use among the foreigners settling in Egypt and perhaps among the lower classes. Long after all this, the Semite got hold of the alphabet and proceeded to spoil it. He degraded the vowels to be variable, owing to his phonetic inflections; he used vague cursive forms instead of the clear uncial signs; and he invented fancy names from the similarities of his shapes of the signs to irrelevant objects. This naming of the signs has nothing to do with their origin, but is like the Irish naming of all the letters from trees, in which there are enough resemblances to the Mediterranean names to show that both come from a common source." [Ancient Egypt, British School of Archeology in Egypt]

[@StMiBll]

Rewatched this one after reading some books about human development from the Paleolithic to the dawn of Jericho. It got me thinking that writing as archaeology has recovered seems already to have a sophistication to it that-based on what we are learning about human development over the past few million years-makes me wonder if it isn’t representative of a system that was already hundreds or thousands of years in the making. The sudden explosion of writing wouldn’t be unique (given how little time humanity took on tech and advanced tech over the last 120-130 years) but I do wonder if there aren’t stones somewhere with the ancient predecessors of writing carved on them by some early pastoralist trying to mark his grazing area or a farmer recording his harvest or even some hunter who in having a success decided to record the moment on a cave wall or otherwise just wrote his name while he waited for his prey to show. A bit romanticized I know but, I still wonder who the first people were to decide that symbols should have a constant meaning that everyone could recognized.

[@mathiasandersen3401]

I think the earliest writing is the "Vinca script"

[@Emcee_Squared]

Regardless of which came first, it is truly fascinating that both of these first writing systems developed roughly at around the same time. Is that a coincidence or is there some kind of influence from one culture to the other?

[@HistorywithCy]

I personally think they developed independently of each other, but there are many who believe one of them (mostly the Sumerians) influenced the other. Thanks for watching and more on the way, stay tuned!

[@Emcee_Squared]

@@HistorywithCy wow its crazy to think there was hundreds of thousands of years of human history and all of the sudden two writing systems develop at around the same time! Its kind of mind blowing.

[@HistorywithCy]

@@Emcee_Squared It is!

[@VerrouSuo]

Hey Cy, great video! I’ve always had a running interest in linguistics. Quick question, though: How do we know the pictographs discovered on the U-J tags were not simply ideograms (which I would argue doesn’t constitute a proper “writing system” because they don’t encode any linguistic information)?

[@HistorywithCy]

Yes, great point, and there are many who agree with you. I honestly can't say but from my understanding, the reason some Egyptologists believe it’s the start of a full writing system is because a few of the tags have combinations of symbols somewhat similar to the Egyptian hieroglyphs that we are familiar with today, and that since the latter are known to constitute sounds and language, the argument is made that the ones from U-j must do the same. That’s what I gather from what I’ve read, but my knowledge of ancient Egyptian language is limited (I've studied some Akkadian and Old Persian, two totally different systems). If I find a more specific answer, I’ll definitely let you know. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it!

[@VerrouSuo]

No problem! Thanks for increasing my understanding.

[@richardarcher7177]

@@HistorywithCy Could be that the formal writing evolved out of the pictorgrams. What started as picture to denote the contents of a container or who owned said container then becomes a list and then a writing system. Unfortunately archeaology - no matter how comprehensive - still only presents us with a splinter of information and lots of blank spaces. Even if we somehow managed to get the great Egyptian Scholar Imhotep back from the dead he would not be able to tell us much on how his writing developed as it was old even in his day.

[@chubbymoth5810]

@@richardarcher7177 Writing is no requirement for civilisation. Plenty of those without writing.

[@ajithsidhu7183]

@@HistorywithCy by caveman

[@lachbullen8014]

You want to know what I think in different parts of the world it takes time for societies to develop and adapt every Society around the world ancient past and now present had their own time period of evolution and establishment and we will never exactly 100% know who invented the writing system and to put it in one way or another I believe that the Egyptians and the ancient Mesopotamia both invented writing in the same time period...

[@FernandoVinny]

Apparently they both developed independently and around the same time.

[@brettmatthews8061]

Chinese and Mayan are very different writing systems, all inscribed on different media. Could it be that many societies reach a certain level of urbanization and centralized state control and if the pressures towards scale and hierarchy continue, necessity becomes the mother of invention?

[@CharlesOffdensen]

Very, very rarely in history do people re-invate writing. It doesn't matter if the Egyptian hieroglyphs don't look like the cuneiform. Two things are clear, there was influence from Shumer in from of trading. The idea of writing is hard to come by. We also know HOW the Sumer cuneiform evolved from a much earlier proto-writing system, that existed for thousands of years before true writing was invented. The Kish-tablets can already be considered writing. So this is no question for me. Just like almost anything else, the Sumerians were the inventors.

[@user-pi7ud6ip8d]

Of the two I'd think that Cuneiform was a more efficient script at least for transcription, also it's alphabet was used for other contemporary languages not something Hieroglyphics could claim.

[@tawan20082008]

Cy, did you see the iran exhibition at villa ? one week left of you didn’t see it yet

[@HistorywithCy]

Yes, I saw it back in May. Honestly, I was a bit underwhelmed, thought they'd have a lot more Achaemenid artifacts. I loved the short Persepolis Reimagined video though, saw it three times!

[@tawan20082008]

I’m glad you saw it ! sorry it sounds like you weren’t really into it , but I’m glad you liked the film !

[@tawan20082008]

I think you would like it more on a second viewing . Try to come again

[@HistorywithCy]

Haha actually I'm going to another place that I think you'll agree will be better... you'll find out later on this year, stay tuned!

[@nimmira]

by the way, didn't they also discover some early writing samples in China that date to ca. 7000 B.C.? (or I could be mixing up with something else?)

[@HistorywithCy]

I know there is something about oracle bones from I think the Shang Dynasty, but I'm not sure if there is a consensus on how old they are. Would be something interesting to look into. Thanks for watching!

[@nimmira]

@@HistorywithCy Still waiting for stuff about China - you promised 😉

[@markwagdyel-magrisy6620]

@@HistorywithCy The Oracle bones date back to 1200 B.C. but I guess he's talking about Jiahu symbols which date back to 6000B.C. They are very similar to later chinese writings, some historians consider an undeciphered ancient Chinese script similar to Vinça script in Europe (5500 B.C)

[@nadineodil7060]

my opinion is they probably attained writing simultaneously just as humans across the earth evolved simultaneously. Could one have gotten the original idea from one another , who knows…they are so different that no matter the first picture or writing both cultures developed their own

[@TutemRa25]

Egypt is the child of Nubia/Sudan/Ethiopia…. Writing and math started in inner Africa… knowledge traveled down to the Nile Valley to the delta where all other peoples benefited.

[@Vintage_Recreations]

I am pretty sure they were contemporaneous. And I also believe in the literal tower of Babel and the curse that befell mankind because of it.

[@andybeans5790]

I wonder if one could have inspired the other without any direct influence? If you were a trader and a rich foreign trader explained how they "tagged" their goods and recorded inventories using marks representing the items so they could keep track, how difficult would it be to create your own tags/symbols? I don't have a horse in the race, whoever was first has my thanks because I love reading

[@gracegg5485]

you can thank the Egyptians for the reading and letters since the alphabet developed from their writings. the cuniform didn't develop to survive todays writing

[@andybeans5790]

@@gracegg5485 the symbols used are irrelevant in my view

[@gracegg5485]

@@andybeans5790 it was the blueprint for the alphabet of today. I think its relevance is highly underestimated. we can also thank them for the 12-month calendar and the 24-hour day cycle. there are many things used in ancient Egypt that the Sumerians haven't really utilized as much. if their civilization was important at all. we can say yes it was a great civilization, but its impact on the modern world is towered and meniscal when compared to that of ancient egypt.

[@ian6796]

@@gracegg5485 The sexagesimal system we use today came from mesopotamia, not from egypt.

[@empireofengland6039]

Easy Latin and Cyrilic writing came from Greek,Greek from Pinecia,and they got it from Egypt. That's all. However Sumerians also invated their writing system we don't use it. There is no much material for long video,so I don't know why youtube recomended it

[@Zebred2001]

What was called "Neken" in ancient Egyptian - Hierakonpolis or the Narmer palette?

[@owlthemolfar4690]

Thank you for the video! I think these writing systems were developed independently. Because writing is necessity for civilisation and, in this case, both have much 'local flavor' for corresponding regions. As for the age. It is hard. But, unless some forms of actual texts and not only labels would be discovered, I will consider Sumerian oldest. As, if I remember correctly, Sumer finds were actual tablets with full text, so it indicates, in my mind, existence of some form of grammar. Which we can not deduce from words or short sentences fron U-j. But tgst is how I understand it.

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@magd4570]

Chinese pictorial script is the oldest and then the Harappa scipt is next, after Sumeria etc.

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@enki4345]

5500-5000 BC, Tartaria tablets.

[@dr.banoub9233]

We’re missing the big picture. Egyptian hieroglyphs are either older, compared to Chinese , or ancestral to all writing systems in use today. Therefore, Egyptians developed the greatest of writing systems.

[@AGS363]

I think it is rather ridiculous to argue if one or the other civilization discovered writing a few decades earlier than the other. Both had their own systems that worked well for them. However, everyone who disagrees...good luck convincing the Chinese to step back. Because this debate is going to be heated and nasty.

[@channel_archistoriac]

Also, I've always been doubtful about radio-carbon analysis provided by different organizations. I guess they do they job really bad. I can't imagine how the Egyptian Civilization is prior to the Sumero-Akkadian one with its sophisticated hieratic script. Really, how? The Sumero-Akkadian Civilization looks way older being more primitive at the first glance. It's ok to a prior archaeological culture to be more primitive than a later one, isn't it? So, to me the Egyptian Civilization has always looked younger due to its too sophisticated statues, metalworking skills, arts and stuff while the mesopotemian looks a culture of way older period once it was of the "Clay Age", as if not even the Bronze one. So, there seems something wrong with date recognition ....

[@billyyank2198]

Those weren't jar labels, they were Fred Flintstone's vacation photos.

[@bugsytv6852]

was hoping it would be an ancient history on the Chaldeans 😢.. everyone leaves Chaldeans out. the bible mentions the Chaldeans by saying “ Babylon the pride and glory of the Chaldee’s “ .. great stuff though.

[@Paulftate]

howdy,,howdy from Virginia

[@Tony_TheAncientWorldReimagined]

Look into Proto-sumerian architecture

[@sidjoosin6549]

I want to add that as TCP/IP protocol did not appear by itself slowly forming by thousands generations in different places - so is Writing. it is purely intented artificial invention, that can be copied, modified, forgotten and changed but can not emerge from nothing, it is invented thing. and I know 0 tradition which doubted that inventor was someone other than Hermes/Tot/Idris/Enoch and ofcourse Egyptians knew that Tot is named Hermes by Greeks and Greeks knew he named Enoch by Israelites, etc, so there is consensus about invention of writing and it's inventor (despite all effort to erase his name from history, while most time in history volume of Corpus Hermetica was ≈ 1/2 of all written text )

[@karldubhe8619]

I've always been a fan of ancient tourists (err, traders) who exchanged ideas as well as goods. They heard rumors about what other peoples were doing, I'm sure of it. Even if there's little to no evidence of that.

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@karldubhe8619]

@@vidren_14 Fek off with that ahistorical nonsense.

[@elizabethpengson8244]

no doubt, they developed independently.. but there is such a thing as synchronicity as Carl Jung have discovered.. all these major civilizations developed in tandem from each other.. yet, having similarities to each other.

[@Henk-bk6kw]

Summer more older I think 🤔

[@HistorywithCy]

That is the scholarly consensus, yes. I also tend to agree though have to admit, the U-j findings are fascinating and have caused me to reexamine what I thought was well known. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it!

[@madderhat5852]

Have they done any archaeological digs on Sesame Street?

[@HistorywithCy]

Not to my knowledge but it'd be interesting to watch if they did! "A is for archaeology..."

[@f.j282]

Eyjept was the first before summer destructions.

[@tralosum9854]

Cy, thank you for your videos. I truly enjoy them. People can be very bias when speaking on this subject. When focusing in one area more than others. Ta-Seti was before ancient Egypt, they had a writing system as well as Nubia, these areas were in the southern area of what we call Upper Eygpt today. They migrated Upper and Lower Egypt. it would great to see your findings regarding Ta-Seti.

[@IosifStalin2]

When did classical/ standard Egyptian hieroglyphics first appear?

[@IosifStalin2]

When was it standardised?

[@HistorywithCy]

I want to say some of the basic ones during the 1st Dynasty, and then many more were added Dynasties II - IV. I need to check to confirm though. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it and more on the way, stay tuned!

[@gracegg5485]

the question should not be who invented writing first or who influnced who, but which of these had the most imopact and use and survived to todays world. WE ALL KNOW WHO THAT HONOR BELONGS TO.

[@rafaels.3969]

The word "without" in Latin?