Hitchens on circumcision

Hitchens on circumcision

[@dilemmix]

It's child abuse to circumcise a baby. Whether circumcission is right or wrong is not the issue- it is the fact that the baby has no free choice. If he wants to be circumcised when he's 18 he is welcome to make arrangements.

[@batissta44]

The "circumcision for hygiene" argument is like saying we should cut off our fingertips so we don't get dirty fingernails. All you have to do is practice proper hygiene.

[@ubivermiscerritulus195]

Funny how they don't wait till the child can decide on their own...

[@AndMakrid]

+Easily Offended Don't Read This... They know pretty well what an adult boy would decide.

[@irishninja1999]

+AndMakrid EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@11Garrett11]

But they want him to look like his mutilated daddy for when they have those cock-comparing parties!

[@11Garrett11]

Zakaria Haque I have a doctorate in neurology - there are 16 neurological functions to the skin of the penis. To take that off is nothing short of retardation. The vast majority of men in the world are intact & they are fine with their penises. Stop infant mutilation.

[@larrycarter3765]

Well they can decide later but it's expensive & hurts a bit.

[@urdrem1]

Routine infant circumcision. Sexual assault and rape by instrument with mayhem, in legalese, and illegal, but is given exception because of the tradition of genital mutilation here in the US.

[@josh885]

Another problem is the terminology. Of course everyone's against female genital mutilation. Which is why they like to use the term female circumcision where it's practiced to make it sound better. The same is true for boys. Circumcision sounds like no big deal even though it's still mutilation. Until we get people start calling circumcision what it really is, male genital mutilation, people will continue to see it as an acceptable practice.

[@darkerforest]

I was born jewish and will raise my kid jewish (traditionally speaking, not religiously) but I will not circumcise him. My first ever paternal instinct :"If someone is approaching my kid with a knife, they better have a damn good reason to do so...."

[@penboyasgod6103]

I recommend a great book: *_Fighting God: An Atheist Manifesto For A Religious World._* by David Silverman. I highly recommend you read it. There is a great chapter on exactly what you posted: "being jewish -- traditionally speaking, not religiously. He very eloquently points out there is no such thing as being/eating/living "jewish" aside from the actual judeo christian "religion." Read it, it's too "complicated" to post by a comment only.

[@titistarr6480]

This is in Europe where people laugh about it cause they are agreeing how ridiculous it is.

[@RLaHive]

I'm European and circumcised...

[@stephenraynes2148]

​@classicalcorner1886 I'm really sorry. 😔

[@NellyNinja]

In America a long-lasting (as in still goes on today) trend started involving NON-RELIGIOUS circumcision, presumably because sexual pleasure and masturbation are these evil things we have to prevent... under the guise of "making the penis cleaner/healthier"

[@jozwamikoajcyk8418]

Man with an IQ of 360 knows best.He's my man!

[@tomgmaples]

Amen brother

[@pbmdh]

Hospitals will do this and I don't really think they have a religious reason (my parents did not), mostly because religious people lie and say it's healthier.

[@supercappuccino]

its traditional, and traditions are hard to break, it is perceived as normal, but now that there is more information out, we can choose wisely for our future children

[@titistarr6480]

where the heck did USA white americans adopt a practice that was not cultural theirs??? Their European forefathers did not practice it,neither did the Native American tribes.

[@jarnowebb6274]

It was forced by the hospitals

[@TeachUsomething]

The most common reason I hear that parents want circumcision is "to avoid him being made fun of in the locker room." Really? So, peer pressure at work even on parents for their infants. If more people did not do it, the locker room would not be majority cut and there would be no teasing.

[@josh885]

The cleanliness thing comes from 4 things. parents wanting cleaning the child to be easier and parents being uncomfortable with having to numberplate the foreskin to clean the baby. Also once the child is old enough they don't want to have to explain to the him how to clean under the fore skin. So in large part the non religious circumcision in this country is do to the the irrational embarrassment and discomfort Americans have about anything connected to the genitals.

[@mariachi031676]

josh885 considering the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis until age 10 on average.....no parent should ever be cleaning under the foreskin of a baby. If they are, they have literally ripped the foreskin from the head to do so. This is damaging and can cause problems. Once kids are out of diapers, they should clean their own genitals. I would not wash my daughters or sons genitals once they are out diapers. Totally unnecessary, they can do it themselves.

[@ajuiceboxxx]

so ignorance.

[@MartinWillett]

Women who see equal numbers of both kinds, or more uncircumcised penises, don't have that irrational prejudice towards the natural look. Also there is less prejudice in countries which don't think they have large numbers of uncircumcised immigrants.

[@lordlacolith]

Ah, well, that makes much more sense. When you put it that way, there's nothing at all wrong with circumcision! After all, who on earth could possibly object to taking a branding iron to your newborn infant?

[@dasadist22]

People who cause the most problems to others : white Americans, Jews, Israelis and Arabs, Muslims- all circumcised. Least problematic people : Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Icelandic, Swiss, Indians, Cambodians. Thai and other small Asian countries like Singapore and sri lanka- all uncircumcised. coincidence ?

[@robin-franswinkel819]

Atheists are in a frenzy, but circumcision isn't bad. Learn Arabic, learn Hebrew, and compare Noahide Law to Sharia. Then make a responsible choice. Hell is eternal...

[@carlosslim7437]

If hell was real you would go there for mutilating human beings

[@jx4219]

I wonder sometimes if circumcision is a deeply rooted problem in the human psyche and if the world would look different if there wasn't any.

[@Jemalacane0]

You are so full of shit.

[@jozwamikoajcyk8418]

Perhaps because they're all sexually frustrated that they can't unload on their bitch fast enough. I get that way when I'm drunk and unable to perform.

[@QwidgyboMan]

Surely you must realise the difference between advocation for medical reasons and advocation for absolute superstition. How many millions were mutilated and unintentionally killed by this practice before it's arguable medical benefits were discovered?

[@shadyparadox]

Irreverent is not immoral. Especially when the target has done nothing worthy of respect (and has done things worthy of disrespect).

[@poolopis01]

@romansionis Since you have trouble reading and reasoning I'll explain it to you: in Vietnam the American presence was terminal, in Japan we encountered a much more stubborn and isolated culture, in Germany we found people who viewed circumcision as a mark of membership in a religious minority. In the Philippines, the circumcision rate tops 90%, so that assumption can be returned to the behind you found it in.

[@shadyparadox]

@EliteDoomer But it's directed at the idiocy of the perpetrator, not the suffering of the victim. Big difference.

[@josh885]

That may be true but the fact is most people believe differently because no one gets educated about the subject do to their discomfort with it. So to avoid it all together they just get their baby circumcised.

[@Ryan18181]

Female circumcision has much more dramatic benefits than male circumcision we protect girls regardless of this, why cant we do the same for men? All the benefits of male circumcision are undermined by modern medicine or the ridiculously low rates of the diseases or infections they claim to prevent. For example as a man I am much more likely to develop breast cancer than i am penile cancer but yet men aren't scrambling to have majority of tissue removed from their chest.

[@DeconversionCentral]

Lets us clear some things up... we all can understand that in a certain sense we have videos of children who get hurt, and we laugh, but we would all agree it is another thing if we think it a necessary or desirable thing to have happened. So here we are, laughing at something otherwise thought cruel and it would not be hypocritical to judge the act of purposely do such to a child "immoral". Secondly I don't see Htichens laughing at the act, but the stupidity of those who thought it a good idea.

[@shadyparadox]

"Bigot" is quite a strong word, considering the rest of your post. Anyway, no, I don't have proof of what exactly went on at those hundreds of brises he said he attended. But I am quite confident that, whether he personally performed a hundred circumcisions or zero, he would never acknowledge the word "inflict" in either case, so I give him no credit for dismissing it.

[@erdnallewen]

Hitchens Rules

[@Neeboopsh]

actually india per capita is lower than the US. i retract that half :) but check the stats of the entire world. higher MANY place outside US. the country is not relevant. the circumcision status is, within a cultural and political border.

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

PART 3 .... negative insults at her. all he said was he raised his eyebrows. watching hitchens in several of his videos, he tended to have an "i do not care attitude". he would then insult the person because they said something insulting about him personally or something he believed. to some people this is not o.k. and to others it is. therefore hitchens may or may not have gotten mad at this lady if she was talking to him not harris. all we are doing arguing about morals is dancing in circles.

[@poolopis01]

@romansionis Indeed, they have, you're very clever. In Vietnam, their presence was terminal, in Japan they encountered a much larger less malleable population and culture. In Germany, they encountered a group of people who had for centuries viewed circumcision as a mark of religious minorities. The Philippines has a circumcision rate of 92%, so you can stuff that assumption back up the behind you pulled it out of. If I need to diversify my research, you need to learn how to read.

[@DeconversionCentral]

I will not put up with with too many lies, watch yourself, make sure you are explaining things in proportion with what is actually true. As to Hitchens "hating religious people" as I stated is false, he has open talk about what exactly he hates, and why, also about his feels for friends who are religious, you now are found claiming Hitchens hates his friends.

[@DeconversionCentral]

To Oregon- I would suggest you provide good reason for accusing someone to be immoral for hating others, and what it exactly means to equate immorality with hate. I would also like you to not misconstrue the idea when someone hates what people do as hating the people per se. Hate generally should be considered wrong, but immoral, not sure this follows? Would I be immoral if I hated child molesters? This does not necessarily connote how I would treat them, which should be the general concern.

[@shadyparadox]

It makes all the difference. Since when do criminals and victims fall under the same category? Hitch's quote in the comment up there was directed at a rabbi who cracked two jokes distinctly aimed at trivializing the unimaginable suffering of innocent children. Here, Hitch is exposing the logic of the circumcisers themselves as really fucking stupid. None of this discussion falls under some generic "don't make fun of religion" umbrella (???). Seems to me he believed quite the contrary.

[@DeconversionCentral]

The fact that Hitchens is not perfect should be what is irrelevant. And yes, you made a mistake, thank you for admitting it, not sure how conscious you are about how much a mistake you made, and on how many levels? I answered a question you posted on another video pertaining to circumcision, hope it is helpful. I am not mad, concerned a little. and you also have not not addressed the question above concerning hate and morals? Is Hitchens not allowed to "insult" or "hate"?

[@romansampo]

Indeed, I would be keen on taking a branding iron on all newborn infants, not only my own, so appealing is the notion.

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

PART 1 i would call you but i do not want to get into a heated discussion (im not angry either, i was taken aback, but it is really strange what can develop out of a simple peaceful conversation. so i will call you later and in the meantime we can talk through this). i did not see your question about morals because they were not in the linked response through my inbox. yes i realise morals are not neccesarily on an equal plain with everybody. what one person calls moral another person may...

[@aperson8438]

It’s weird hearing him talk about his own death and funeral considering the fact that he’s dead....

[@Garhunt05]

@EliteDoomer I didn't and apparently you missed my point

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

i do not see him laughing at the act either. i do see him laughing at the stupidity of those who thought it a good idea. thats the point. its ok for people like him to make the occasional rude immoral comment (snicker) which isnt very moral, when he is talking about morals the whole time. i realize that no one is perfect and is capable of error, including hitchens.

[@zekeedwards7904]

female circumcision

[@machida58]

He is talking about both.

[@DeconversionCentral]

I would also like add, that it seems just a little sad that this is the angle in which some people want to put the argument. I mean for goodness sake, here is a man vocally asking people to think about this issue, who and why it has or still is done, and if some laughter washes over the deeply troubling ideas, understandably making it easier to deal with such butchery and stupidity, and this is just one topic, my goodness, we now judge Hitchens to have "eatin his words"? Far from it.

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

PART 2 not call moral. yes some people would think that killing a child molester is o.k. then on the other hand you have people arguing that this would be inhumane to kill them. (see this all the time with death row inmates) i watched the debate harris vs. craig. harris was suprised when that one lady (one of obama's advisers) said that it was o.k. for ancient civilizations to pluck out childrens eyes if thats what they were told to do, yet she is brilliant on other things. he didnt throw any...

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

PART 2 ........... and other religious figures. i cant remember very much of it at all. therefore i should not have even said anything until i went back and watched the video. what i got out of (remembering some) the video however was that he hated religious people. this may or may not be what he was trying to say. i really wish i could find it. anyway we are arguing about something that is really irrelevant. like i said before no one is perfect and that includes hitchens.

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

actually irreverent and immoral are very similar. irreverent means lack of respect for things normally taken seriously and immoral means not conforming to accepted standards of morality (which is pretty serious in itself because that is pretty much what you and hitchens are basing your whole argument (what is moral and what isnt) on). im going to bed now so i will be happy to respond to your next response when i wake up.

[@11Garrett11]

People are laughing but this isn’t even a little bit funny. I was circumcised as an infant and I get made fun of for telling people that I am absolutely outraged by this. #metoo

[@ThorX89]

As an intact European, I'd be outraged too. I was even slightly mad for being baptized without my consent. But to have a favorite part of me cut off nonconsensually, I'd be beyond furious. I don't understand why people in the US haven't managed to ban it yet. It's a clear violation of a newborn's right to bodily integrity.

[@11Garrett11]

@@ThorX89 As they say, always trace it back to the money. They sell baby foreskins to high-end cosmetic companies and stem cell companies for $1000/vial without telling the parents - there’s an amazing video here on KZbin called ‘elephant in the hospital’ that is so illuminating. It’s so barbaric but then again look at Covid and the medical industrial complex as a whole - they’re so out of integrity it’s mind blowing

[@11Garrett11]

@@ThorX89 As they say, always trace it back to the money. They sell baby foreskins to high-end cosmetic companies and stem cell companies for $1000/vial without telling the parents - there’s an amazing video here on KZbin called ‘elephant in the hospital’ that is so illuminating. It’s so barbaric but then again look at Covid and the medical industrial complex as a whole - they’re so out of integrity it’s mind blowing

[@DeconversionCentral]

To Oregon- Let us get one thing straight, you may think he is slightly immoral for snickering (?), but you at least find the act of circumcision far more immoral, right? You can make an argument that male circumcision lightly dulls sexual sensation, but this is dodging the point of the procedure's purpose and plus it being extremely dangerous for the children (only if there is legitimate reason for such procedures far beyond superstitious brouhaha or sexual suppression) So... can we move on?

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

that does not matter. hitchen's himself said that religion is something that can cause moral people to do unforgiving things. he would have looked more moral if he wouldnt have laughed at all. anyway, no one is perfect, including hitchens, so he eats his own words without realizing it.

[@lordlacolith]

Haha, apparently our friend here was so embarrassed by his idiotic comment that he removed it.

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

are you mad? PART 1 yes i went back and watched a certain video and he wasnt saying f ' off to religious people, but to god, if he was asked to kill one of his children. sorry. please type in on the search bar - when hitchens gets furious. from 1:41 to 3:04 hitchens completely insults jerry falwell (even though jerry falwell insults 9/11 victims and the whole country) after jerry's recent death. in one video i watched that i couldnt find, hitchens says that he hates the dhali lama.......

[@harrybalszak7526]

they say jews are cheap. but at least they give their rabbi a tip after every circumcision 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@poolopis01]

@romansionis @romansionis You're a very clever boy aren't you. In Vietnam, America's presence was terminal. In Japan, they encountered a stubborn and nationalistic culture, and in Germany they encountered a culture which viewed circumcision as a mark of the religious minorities. The Philippines has a circumcision rate topping 90%, so you can put that assumption back in the behind you retrieved it from. How about, instead of diversifying my research, you learn how to read.

[@Garhunt05]

@EliteDoomer than comedy should be illeagal

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

are you calling the rabbi a criminal? i do not know how you got out of my response that i was putting criminals and victims in the same category? i was trying to say that hitchens says religion makes "moral" people (rabbi) do unmoral things. yet look at mr. hitchens himself, not only this video but almost every one of his videos and debates, he lets out an immoral statement occasionaly. therefore he is eating his own words about being moral (but its ok because god hating people think its funny).

[@GiraffesEatStuff]

:)

[@YoNiQe]

very inappropriate to laugh at that imho. weird audience.

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

you may have a point, maybe. but how do you know for a fact that he chose another word. he might have actually doing just what he said, officiating. another person could have been there performing the circumcision. you cant come to conclusions with information you do not know. the second you do that is the second your opinion becomes biased and you become a bigot.

[@DeconversionCentral]

You don't make any sense. I mean how are you using your intuitive moral scale here? On other topics you are quite dismissive of highly immoral things, yet here a man otherwise provoking people to think about the stupidity of such "real" immoral things, and you exclaim he eats his own words, by merely "snickering"... seriously. I am not advocating Hitchens is prefect in any sense, but here we find ourselves arguing a point I find feeble and lacking at best.

[@DeconversionCentral]

To Oregon- I personally would like to see you acknowledge your argument failed, and that you are clearly mistaken. You oddly claim that the laughter about the subject itself was a "rude immoral comment"? How skewed is your moral judgement, I explained that your view was misconstrued, with a simple analogy quite clearly, and if you pay attention, Hitchens in several debates even makes it a point to ask the people not to think he is being funny about such religious immoral actions.

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

thats to bad. i really honestly wonder how you can compare the rabbi to jerry sandusky when the rabbi said he never actually performed a circumcision he was only there officiating. good luck with that. now about moral people doing bad things because religion tells them to. i guess you did not watch the first 10 seconds of this video. please re-watch this video and then the video with the rabbi. maybe you might hear him say that he never actually performed a circumcision.

[@DeconversionCentral]

To Oregon- Why are you doing this... you are making little sense and I am being extremely patient with such nonsense. Do you honestly believe you have made any good argument? And lets us straighten things up please... despite whenever Hitchens may be immorally provocative, does that somehow make the subjects of his arguments void? Also, I did not received any PM about Hitchens, and I think I have successfully squashed the argument thus far, so I not sure what you can add in your favor.

[@oregonducksrpimpen]

sure thats why i said you may have a point because he may have switched words so he would not become an object of ridicule and scorn. on to you being a "bigot". bigot can mean someone who holds on to their own opinions or prejudices. i did not want to go into this because i wanted to be polite. however i will. you made the claim that the rabbi was like jerry sandusky. sandusky touched boys to get off. thats wrong - immoral! the rabbi was following custom he feels is right, not to get off.

[@Neeboopsh]

look at a specific area (say south africa, or something). high risk area - who has more aids. where there are other huge factors (such as socioeconomic, education, religious, etc) that invalidates the apparent difference. if you look at israel vs south africa - circumcision looks like a good plan totally. but there are large areas in south africa where there are no sex-ed, condom availability is lower, etc. the triels in africa arent perfect but better than false dichotomy comparisons

[@dannyboy141]

Who gives a shit about male circumcision you can restore it.

[@LandyYecla]

You actually can't. You can stretch out the remaining skin, and that has a positive effect for some, but it's not the same thing.

[@canaliculus]

Hitchens