HMV 102 motor - quick clean and test

Getting the motor out of a HMV 102 gramophone and giving it a check check and test
#gramophone
#hmv
#phonograph
#gramophonerepair

[@davidk6271]

Looks fine. Probably just needs a good clean and a mainspring service. I like working on the HMV motors, they are well built and rarely give problems if properly serviced.

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. Haven't decided yet whether to service this further or just give it an oil and put it back in the case to test. At some point I would like to properly service it of course. I agree though, it is very nicely made and is built to last

[@theantiquescollector2199]

Congratulation on getting a 102! They're amazing machines and always worth fixing

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. Yes it is certainly a nicely built machine. Maybe it will work just fine once I get it back together again 🤔

[@theantiquescollector2199]

@@mrrgstuff If the reproducer is all okay, you will be surprised how well these sound, i speak from experience since i have a red one

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. The reproducer looks OK. I'll test it soon

[@surfraptor]

@@theantiquescollector2199 Love those red ones.

[@terrycard6775]

These 102s are a great machine. Nice video my friend. Thanks for sharing 👍.

[@mrrgstuff]

I think it technically the best machine I own. Hopefully get it playing soon. Thanks 😀 👍

[@stevecoward3543]

Yeah super careful with the governor weight hitting the case at high speed, I learnt the hard way as a 12 yr old when one of the weights decided to part company with the motor flying across the garden and ending up in the fish pond! Runs lovely a quiet, any sign of hardened grease on the gears? Stiffness whilst winding? If not maybe a light greasing/oiling according to the paper instructions then reassembly and see how it plays a record or two....

[@mrrgstuff]

Fortunately nothing has broken on me quite like that yet, but a scary prospect! It does seem to run fine I agree, and the motor is a bit dirty but not excessively so. No obvious signs of hardened grease and the motor winds fine too. Thanks 😀 👍

[@surfraptor]

Good you ducked! ;-)

[@emilythorne8181]

I restored old decca 78. Spring was sealed and full of crap. I socked in wd40 and white spirits. Then melted vasalin and socked spring for long time. Good as new. Love the sound ❤

[@mrrgstuff]

Sounds good. WD40 and white spirit are very effective for this, though my workshop doesn't really have enough ventilation for white spirit and the smell is overpowering. I did read in an old book that petrol works well too! Thanks 😀 👍

[@Timothycan]

I find getting the governor adjusted right so that it spins nice and freely can make a big difference. The axle positions at the ends can be adjusted. Take care that the gear properly engages with the worm on the governor axle, too. It's nasty if it slips and can ruin the gears.

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. I'll have a look at the governor before I put it back in the case

[@GrandadIsAnOldMan]

You are in your element, stripping these gramophones down 😊

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. This one was a bit more of a strip down than intended, but worth knowing what state the motor was in. I seem to have a lot of gramophones related stuff at the moment, but hope to do some other videos too

[@Mrpurple75]

They certainly used all available space for that horn

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes indeed. Probably going to be quite loud too! Thanks 😀 👍

[@rebekahcrossman4690]

I’m still just amazed that from such simple parts comes out sounds so complex! It’s an incredibly gorgeous design the 102. I have the same model I bought in London 30 years ago. The spring/motor just stopped working. I’d like to use your video to see if I can make out what’s happened. Thanks for making this.

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. When you say 'stopped working', what are the symptoms?

[@rebekahcrossman4690]

@@mrrgstuff so glad you asked because after seeing your video I took it all apart and got to the spring case (like a tuna fish can) but it wouldn’t open. The crank just turns and turns. When I descend the needle the rotation stops after 1 second. No one here in Texas works on these. It’s my most treasured memorabilia from my life in London so it’s important to me to get it working. I’d be so grateful for any advise you have. (The motor did not spin at all. )

[@rebekahcrossman4690]

Okay, so I removed the bottom plate with the spool that goes through the middle of the spring barrel but as I was unable to open it and look at the spring, I put the plate back on and wound it again. I did this two times and each time something faintly clicked once then there was a bit more tension as I wound it up. But the motor didn’t spin. Gosh, does this mean I must replace the motor as well as the spring you think? Also, as I normally don’t tinker with machines I’ve no idea what motor grease and oil I should use as there isn’t any HMV grease and oil as recommended. If you’ve taken the time to read this once again, thank you!

[@mrrgstuff]

So if you are getting a sort of clicking noise when you wind the motor, it might be this problem: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aH6We5utrLx5nrM Basically in this case the spring is broken (or has come loose from its fixing) and the spring barrel needs to be opened up to resolve the problem. Motors do click a bit anyway as you wind them up, but a broken spring will wind itself down with a clicking noise. Some broken springs don't wind up at all. If it winds and seems to be taking tension, then check that the speed control is not jammed up against the governor stopping it turning Unless you have damaged gears it's unlikely the motor itself is damaged. If anything is broken it is likely to be the main spring. For lubrication I just use cheap motor/axle grease and also sewing machine oil for the governor. Best to avoid 3in1as it gums up over time. As I think you said you are in Texas, it is probably worth asking on: forum.talkingmachine.info/index.php To find someone more local to help fixing it. You will probably only need to send them the motor or maybe just the spring barrel, if you can determine it is the spring. If you can post some pictures on that forum or ideally a video link it would really help pinpointing the issue. Thanks 😀 👍

[@rebekahcrossman4690]

@@mrrgstuff thank you so much. Yes I did see more of your videos, they’re so nicely done, and I’ve determined it is the motor & perhaps spring as well. I will check out the link you sent thank you. But, even if I find someone to do all this intricate work and cleaning it’ll cost me more than I can afford. On eBay I’ve found motors but the shipping cost, understandably, is almost twice the price of the part itself because they’re all from the UK! I had a thought: My young daughter is in London right now for a semester of study. I wonder if you may know of any places for parts there. I might be able to ring them up possibly to arrange for my daughter to collect one. If I could get a motor and spring with barrel, I’m not sure how much that would cost me but as they seem more readily available there potentially less dear than if I try to get parts from here. What do you think? I know you’ve spent some valuable time here kindly answering my queries and I really thank you for that. I think though this may be the easiest solution.

[@schwarzalben88]

the main spring may be somewhat tired, especially if some one in the past has stored it with the spring fully wound. It could also be due to the grease inside the Spring case being too thick ( which is very likely due to its age)

[@mrrgstuff]

Surprisingly, now I have played some records on this machine, the spring seems to be still quite strong. It does need a proper clean and regrease though. Thanks 😀 👍

[@NippersLounge]

Not bad. You’re right a little cleaning and servicing, and you should be good to go.

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. It will be good to get it playing again

[@NippersLounge]

@@mrrgstuff you’re welcome!

[@rebekahcrossman4690]

It still amazes me that from such a beautifully simple design comes out such complex sounds. I also have a blue HMV 102 I bought in London. The motor or spring just stopped working after 30 years. I wonder if a complete novice like me can do anything to repair it.

[@mrrgstuff]

I find old equipment like this fascinating and completely agree its amazing how such a simple mechanism works so well. The motor however is the most complicated part. If the problem is just dried up old grease then cleaning the motor and applying more grease may get it working again. If the handle turns but it won't wind, then the motor might actually be broken and that is a lot more complicated to sort out. I haven't fixed a motor from a 102, but I did fix a bigger HMV motor which will give you an idea of the type of work involved: kzbin.info/aero/PLsCYUbO6xxnT2W0mIpLWhd5B6p-RARo9B Thanks 😀 👍

[@schwarzalben88]

@@mrrgstuff I have changed springs on a couple of occasions when a lot younger I also on one occasion redrillled a spring which had broken towards the outer end. I really don't advise messing around with a gramophone mainspring for a beginner. Its a very scary scenario especially removing the old broken Spring ( You need a sack to remove the old spring). Not sure how Id deal with it today. I no longer have the manual dexterity or strength in my wrists and hands.

[@mrrgstuff]

I've heard about the bag trick, but not tried it myself. I would agree though that changing the spring is the hardest and most dangerous thing when servicing a gramophone and I have only done it a couple of times myself. Here is me refitting the last spring, though in use it turned out to be fairly weak (needs a good wind to play a whole record) and other springs can be much harder to deal with kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYqnnqVqfsuIotE Thanks 😀 👍

[@rebekahcrossman4690]

It would be really nice to see how you strip down the motor, clean and service it! I’ll be looking out for that one.

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. Yes, I hope to do more with motors. I have several HMV portable machines which require attention 😅

[@rebekahcrossman4690]

@@mrrgstuff I’m chomping on the bits because last night I got my motor to run again just by scraping off so much of that dried grease!! It’s just a start because I didn’t want to strip it down too far without knowing what I’m doing. I got my superglue so I’ll just practicing on repairing those records. 😬

[@HCGramophone]

Good video, nice machine. I've got several 101 and 102 models. Surprisingly they all have differing motor units. I think it was common in the day for repairers to switch out motor units. I haven't been able to find a definitive guide on what motor was used on these. I wonder if someone can help.

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, there seems to be some variety in motors and HMV did tend to use up items so models can have a mixture of parts, even from new. I have a couple of 101s, which do have the same motor. Both motors are broken, but I think I can get a decent working machine between them. I also have a couple of 102s, but the other one is untested and I have not had it apart yet to look at the motor. Thanks 😀 👍

[@surfraptor]

Thanks! I just took my 270-D apart. From a 1938 HMV 102. Grease rather hard, spring looks good. Would you advice to remove the spring, clean it and then grease again? I fear for my eyes when I have to put it back. :-) Cheers from Holland.

[@mrrgstuff]

It's a good question. I so far have only removed springs where it was absolutely necessary to get the motor working again. If you feel the spring really needs cleaning but don't want to remove it, the I believe it is possible to soak the whole spring barrel in solvent to remove the old grease and then just apply new grease on top. I have not tried this though. Thanks 😀 👍

[@josephbruceismay6832]

huh. That mechanism looks suprisingly similar to what my Swanson Portable Talking Machine (Patent applied for) is running.

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, there were quite a few different motors, but many similarities between them. Thanks 😀 👍

[@Demo12345]

Stupid question, what if you were to put an aluminum diaphragm into a reproducer that was built for a mica diaphragm? Would it work better or worse since the box would have been optimized for a different material.

[@mrrgstuff]

I think it's a very good question. Certainly it's possible to use both in the same design of reproducer. As well as my own experiments, I have also seen an HMV No.4 on ebay which had an aluminium diaphragm. I think many reproducers were not scientifically designed rather were loose copies of other ones on the market. They therefore weren't really tuned for a particular diaphragm material and may work equally well or even better by changing it. Overall though, aluminium has the potential for the best frequency response, so could improve things. The aluminium diaphragm needs to be properly formed with corrugations. A flat aluminium diaphragm performs poorly. Thanks 😀 👍

[@19ghost73]

Looks to me as if the axle/spindle on which the speed governor's weights are rotating could need some lubrication. They should react smooth & quick to speed adjustments...and in the video they were quite slowly following. Just judging from this video, though.

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. Yes this motor really would benefit from a complete overhual. To be fair to the dealer, it was sold to me as having a suspect motor, but at least in these tests there doesn't seem to be anything seriously wrong with it. Your suggestion is good though as the machines runs slow. It gets to about 75rpm and no faster. Thanks again 😀

[@Useless_Inc.]

Where do i get the what is called the thing that sits on the record i have a hundred year old gramophone spins well but doesnt have the part that generates the sound

[@mrrgstuff]

It's called a soundbox (British English) or reproducer (American English). There were many different ones made, and there were several different fittings. Do you know what make or model of machine you have? These videos might also: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6HahGejf5uKe7M kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z5qUq6apZ8Rrmdk Thanks 👍 😀

[@Useless_Inc.]

@@mrrgstuff i donk know the model but its very old belonged to my great grandfather. I am thinking of restoring it but without all the parts whats the point

[@Useless_Inc.]

kzbin.infoQIchARtxKzc?si=aF4rnIaafyCXJocV

[@Useless_Inc.]

kzbin.infoQIchARtxKzc?si=aF4rnIaafyCXJocV

[@Useless_Inc.]

@@mrrgstuff looks very similar to this where can i send you a picture? Will do it tomorrow as i need to take it out and its night time over here

[@rebekahcrossman4690]

If anyone knows how best to clean the case, please let me know as I can’t make out what the material is, so I’m hesitant to try until I know. Thanks!

[@mrrgstuff]

I'm not 100% sure what material HMV used, however portable gramophone case coverings are often described as being made of Rexine so searching for that might help

[@rebekahcrossman4690]

Thank you - that’s so helpful. I looked it up and found this on restoring rexine covered amps, guitar cases, etc… kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHi4kpePZdOBd80

[@schwarzalben88]

@@mrrgstuff clean the case with Black Shoe Polish, apply with a brush then polish off with a duster.

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, should work well. My 102 has damaged covering so it will require some repair work too. Thanks 😀 👍

[@rebekahcrossman4690]

My case is blue. I ended up using saddle soap to clean and add back a bit of much needed moisture. I let that dry over 2 days before mixing good artist grade acrylic paint to match the color as it’s too difficult to find a dye or polish to match. It looks and feels now like it should.

[@rajamani6242]

எனக்கு HMV கிராமபோன் மிகவும் விரும்புகிறேன்.எனக்கு கிடைக்குமா கூறுங்கள்

[@user-cc3ek1we1y]

Здравствуйте ! Пружину смазать надо

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, the motor really needs a complete service. This video was just to see if the motor would run OK. Thanks 😀 👍

[@user-cc3ek1we1y]

@@mrrgstuff Удачи !

[@mrrgstuff]

@user-cc3ek1we1y Thanks 😀👍