Hobbits, Water, Ulmo, and Fate | Down the Hobbit Hole - Episode 2

[@TerezatheTeacher]

Every summer, Ulmo lures Czech people to Croatia (and, in smaller amounts, Italy), where they undertake the noble quest of getting ludicrously sunburnt while swimming and lying on the beach. They then go back to Czechia, slightly changed (mostly dark pink and peeling), and continue their mundane, sea-less lives. It is the great calling of the sea - once a Czech person has heard the sound of the sea (and of Croatian souvenir sellers), they come back again and again, forever dissatisfied with their boring, hobbit-like life in a landlocked country.

[@michaelman957]

Ulmo's greatest strength is his resistance to saying "I told you so!"

[@danielmapp4522]

Ulmo is the distant uncle that comes and keeps the family from fighting or a kid from hurting themselves.

[@greenman6141]

Really lovely. So well done. I've no notion of who GNG is, not even her age, let alone her academic background, but her ability to do textual analysis is of the standard that one finds only in people who have done it for years in a critical setting, and applied to many authors, or artists. I have watched videos on no few Tolkien themed KZbin channels. Their quality varies enormously. There is only one other channel whose work is of such consistent high quality, and that channel is nothing like this one. Its strength lies in its very wide and deep familiarity of all of Tolkien's work, so the writer is able to bring out connections that are not evident to people who, well, who haven't dedicated so much time and thought to the Tolkien's work. It doesn't do literary analysis. This is the sole KZbin channel (that I've found) that does thematic, symbolic, and character analysis of a level that should be expected of a literature student who has studied at one of the best universities that the world has. This is particularly notable when she raises a a thought and then says that she understands that she is veering into the speculative. She shows she is self-regulating - not presenting all her ideas as as firmly grounded, but at the same time understanding that there is enough that is intriguing about the idea that it is nevertheless worth stating, if only for the enjoyment of it. Really superior stuff. Would love to know more about her. But love knowing about her only via the quality of her work.

[@Crabby303]

You know, it's only just occurred to me now that Gollum's longevity might have been due more to his excellent diet of raw fish, rather than the Ring. Plus he didn't drink or smoke, as far as we know.

[@dlevi67]

Well, the raw fish diet was interrupted with the occasional orc, still eaten raw. I'm not sure it's that healthy, so there must have been some other reason.

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Considering his mental health issues, overall demeanor, and stunning good looks. Yeah, sure, well worth it. I would feel like my soul was withering on a raw fish and orc diet.

[@larsdejong7396]

600+ years- all due to a good diet? I think that is taking it just a tad bit to far.

[@dlevi67]

@@michaelsmyth3935 "I would feel like my soul was withering on a raw fish and orc diet." I'm sure he felt the same, at least for a while.

[@ellerose9164]

Japanese diet, makes sense...

[@DarthFrayd]

What an interesting pattern, water breaking the status quo even up to and including death. Hobbits learning about the Valar and upon hearing about Ulmo, instantly being "hmmm, don't like that one." Great video, exactly the vibe I love for lore and themes.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I agree the connections can’t be entirely accidental. As you point out, turning away from the sea (or water more broadly) is clearly in some sense a negative, but just how Tolkien conceived of that with the Hobbits is unclear. Is it merely a sign of their isolationism (for lack of a better word) or does it go as deep as the notes of the Ulumuri? But that’s the lovely thing about Tolkien: some things are just on the edge of guessing, with huge mythic potential.

[@rothbardfreedom]

Númenor when aligned with the West were the kings of water. Their ultimate rebellion was a water attack against Valinor. And finally their downfall came by a great wave. Surely Ulmo was involved in this development.

[@tomlienert882]

Not according to “The Silmarillion”, where it’s stated quite clearly that the Valar as a whole laid down their authority and called on Iluvatar to deal with it.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Still only about 4 minutes in but when you read about the tower and being able to see the Sea from it, for the first time ever I connected that with the line from his allegory in The Monsters and the Critics about the man who built a tower from old ruins. And now I have to ponder this and figure out if there’s a connection and it’s all your fault! 😅

[@istari0]

Ulmo is one of my favorite Vala but I don't know that I have one favorite. I had noticed that while Manwë and Ulmo are definitely close to one another, it is Ulmo who more than any other Vala, except possibly Mandos, who would tell the others "I don't think this is a good idea." A video on the relationship between the two would be most welcome.

[@alanmike6883]

Ulmo is my favorite valar. He took the watch of keeping a eye out on the children very seriously for as long as possible as his influence Wained

[@jamesbell7696]

My favorite is Irmo/Lorien but I'm also a huge Sandman fan.

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

This was very interesting stuff, it made me think of the music of the rain, the watery singing of Goldberry and the dream of Frodo in the house of Tom Bombadil. Thanks GNG and keep up the good work.

[@michaelman957]

Ulmo is the best friend you can trust to say, "This is a bad idea," and who has the rather marked habit of being right.

[@brendanmooney7607]

Who **is** your favourite Vala, Lexi? If you've mentioned it in a previous video I've clearly forgotten the answer, my apologies!

[@ecthelion1735]

Melkor, probably 🤔

[@brendanmooney7607]

@@ecthelion1735 yup, that was reflexive guess - but then I got bogged down in the open-ended "does Melkor technically still count among the Valar in this context" question and wondered if she might have a 14-non-evil-Valar favourite 🙂

[@ecthelion1735]

@@brendanmooney7607 My guess is that she would like Mandos. He's my favorite, in any case.

[@brendanmooney7607]

@@ecthelion1735 Solid choice, Mandos is, as the kids say, a true G.

[@matthabir4837]

Just what I needed on this rainy autumn afternoon.

[@louisebrouillette5580]

Lots of things to think about. I never connected all the things you listed, and now I'm rethinking. Just what a good lesson should do!

[@danielmapp4522]

Food for thought but I always thought that Hobbiton stood on was land that Yavnnah first stood and watered the Dark Age's tree seeds with her rich song and power. That would explain why Gandalf said that it was a power that protected Hobbiton do to Yavannah visiting and hollowing out the land ever so often. Ulmo may protected it as well do the many little rivers and brooks there. Ulmo definitely had a hand in the fish seizing Smeagol's fishing line and him finding the One Ring.

[@Enerdhil]

Have to admit when I saw the title "Hobbits and Ulmo" my mind drew a blank. Can't wait to see and hear what you have to say.

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

Same here. 20 minutes of intense information later, the perceived bottom line: They are not connected. The magnificent Ulmo, and the healthy Hobbiton dweller.

[@hglundahl]

2:52 It seems that the parallel is pretty close to the Telmarines in Miraz' time with both sea and woods. One more parallel on top of the 40 I made - I am sure I hadn't noticed this one before.

[@eluthiccgol4715]

I really enjoyed this. Thanks Lexi

[@Astrobrewster]

Loved this. One of the best things about LOTR is that the backgrounded flaws of the Shire are revealed in the Scouring of the Shire. It reminds me of the 1001 Nights. Four friends have a dream of quest and adventure, only to wake up at home and find it isn’t what they thought it was. It takes a dream to wake up from a dream

[@stonefox2546]

Oh yes. I love this. How much of Ulmo's influence do you see in Gandalf's sudden knowledge that Bilbo _must_ come with Thorin&co's quest to Erebor?

[@Makkaru112]

I love your channel so much. A sign of great channels like yours cropping up and growing in majesty. Taking your channel as inspiration to let Tolkiens themes of his great works to spread through the world !❤

[@Makkaru112]

Hope someone gets to read this….

[@GirlNextGondor]

Read and appreciated ♥ Thank you very much!

[@digitalnomad9985]

@@GirlNextGondor You just plugged what I always thought was a minor plot hole. Aragorn speaking of Gollum "I thought this river journey would defeat him, but he is too clever a waterman." A proto-hobbit, however webbed, however river-wise, hiding behind and floating via driftwood, having to fish as he went, keeping up with competent folk rowing elvin boats? ULMO HELPED HIM. His memory and understanding of the Music is greater than that of Gandalf.

[@ecthelionofthefountain8267]

What is wrong with Ulmo? Is the bad boy Melkor your favourite Vala perhaps even though he technically does not count? 😄

[@KatarzynaMatylla]

Nothing is *wrong* with Ulmo, but Aule is better. ;)

[@Enerdhil]

Ulmo helped to set right all the Wrongs the Valar had committed on Middle Earth. How can you beat that? Aulë did most of the heavy lifting in the creation of Arda, but his creating the Dwarves disqualifies him in my mind for one of my favourites. Yavanna is way ahead of him, me thinks. Eru forgave him, but I don't have to like him. Sauron and Saruman come from his camp. 'nuff said.

[@jaytucker7873]

Wonderful video! I'll have to hit that like button as if I am the power of Ulmo bringing it to a transition point after which it can never return to the way things used to be!

[@Valdagast]

_Under the sea_ _Under the sea_ _Ulmo is better_ _Lord of the wetter_ _Under the sea_

[@bedlaskybedla6361]

I discover your channel recently and I really love your work. Your videos always give me new ideas, something I've never thought about before, and this helps me to better understand the world of Arda. Keep up in the good work! Btw. you have really sweet voice :). I am little bit curious - who is your favorite Vala? My is Ulmo (from obvious reasons). I am not big fan of Valar in general (because of their attitude towards Noldor and man), so Ulmo is exception for me. I also in some ways like Melkor - I think he is very interesting and complex character, he had truly great potential, it's sad how low he eventually fall.

[@mrmacura3421]

It would be really nice if you could do some sort of video about the other elements. Like how Gandalf talks about the winds or the association of fire with creation

[@EriktheRed2023]

Tons of water, indeed! Wonderful stuff, as always! 😀 I wonder how much Tolkien could remember of leaving South Africa? That must have been quite the 'crossing of the waters' moment for a little boy, and quite a water journey, too. (I just realized I am assuming the latter - I don't actually know how the family travelled.) I'm reminded of how Sam crosses the Brandywine for the first time, and thinks about how his old life lies behind, and danger ahead. But for all the water in Middle-earth, I'm wondering if there was ever as self-conscious and masterful a character as to have a Rubicon moment. Túrin has those qualities, but he's a little too rash to mythically re-enact that scene. And maybe he doesn't have quite Julie's flair for the dramatic. Túrin was the drama, where Caesar enacted it, but they both had plenty of drama happen to them as well.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Turin "I AM the Drama!" Turambar 😅 I love it. I imagine Sauron might have had a bit of a Moment when he hit the Gwathlo, I feel like he might be given to some Caesarian pose-striking.

[@JustFlemishMe]

Given how air travel would likely not have been readily accessible, crossing water was almost certainly involved.

[@IanHeins]

Nice work thanks

[@junior4900]

Wow, I sure didn't sea that coming. What a deep episode!

[@estherandreasen366]

Oh my gosh I never thought of that!!! I saw the name of the video and was confused about how they tied together, but it works so well!

[@shanenolan8252]

Thanks lexi . Happy Thanksgiving.

[@FairbrookWingates]

Beautifully spoken and elucidated video. One thing to note that may actually add to your thoughts on water. You say Golum is perhaps at his worst when he is 'wet' but my first thought is of his swimming in the forbidden pool to catch fish. He is fully immersed in the water here, more so than any other time besides the river Anduin. Yet, he is not thinking of the ring, not debating with himself, but simply hunting food as any man or hobbit might do. He is in a way returned to his ancient self for but a moment. The self that apparently enjoyed fishing and being on the river Anduin until the ring poisoned life for him. When fetched from the pool he is returned to land and to the present, horrible, time.

[@fredkrissman6527]

The various threads focusing on the symbolism of water was both completely new to me and amazing to have revealed... Thanx 🌧🌈🌞

[@Ngaemond]

I enjoyed this. Ulmo is by far my favorite Vala and I am intrigued by his role in Tolkien's mythology. I've also been fascinated by the topic of chaos in its various forms particularly in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament. My academic training is in Bible and Ancient Near East. I've started preliminary work on a "biography" of chaos that sometimes refers to the work of Tolkien. Your video gives me much to think about and I will probably cite you in my ongoing research into the nature and "narrative" of chaos.

[@eigenman30]

Volume fixed on this one. Thx.

[@grantburgess-xt2jd]

The pool at Ithilien is the last body of water before entering Mordor. A last chance to consider Gollum as a companion, a pitiable creature. The last place to fill their water. There would also seem to be significance to Mordor being devoid of fresh water, and hope and will fading as Frodo and Sam's supply dwindles.

[@margaretalbrecht4650]

Lately, I've found myself wondering "What if the Valar hadn't forsaken Middle-earth and left it to Morgoth to go live a cushy life in Aman (in a virtual paradise of light and beauty) where they tried to bring all the Elves to? What if the Valar stayed in Middle-earth and were there with the Elves the whole time and, then later, with Men?" In the end, everything works out in the Music. But I don't think the initial song had the Valar deserting Middle-earth and everyone in it to Morgoth's brutality. And when the second Music is sung the way it's supposed to be, I don't envision the separation that the Valar chose for themselves. In short, I see the Valar as seriously screwing up their charge because they were tired of fighting with Morgoth so basically threw up their hands and said, "Screw it. We're going to make ourselves the best refuge in the world and go hide out there." Then when the Elves were discovered, the Valar captured Morgoth, but didn't stick around to clean up the rest of the mess and leave a clean field for the Elves. And they didn't move to Middle-earth to be with the Elves and help them deal with the mess. Instead they decided to bring the Elves to their refuge and leave the mess behind for everything still in Middle-earth to deal with.

[@jarrodcarver9001]

Thanks Lexi!

[@user-ks5cg5cd7m]

Love your videos

[@jtmcailin4522]

Just can’t imagine what could’ve POSSESSED Boromir to go down the river like that… Twas truly a SHOT TO THE HEART, when I learned of his departure…

[@joshuapatrick682]

My fave Vala was always Orome

[@alanvatcher8374]

Hobbits would eat up all the food in Valinor, and all the immortal lands. The dearth from just two Hobbits feastings, followed by the arrival of Master Gardener; caused even Mandos to grumble from hunger for many ages thereafter.

[@Brandon-a-writer]

I think this adds to your ideas, from LoTR: It is probable that the craft of building, as many other crafts beside, was derived from the Du ́nedain. But the Hobbits may have learned it direct from the Elves, the teachers of Men in their youth. For the PROLOGUE 7 Elves of the High Kindred had not yet forsaken Middle-earth, and they dwelt still at that time at the Grey Havens away to the west, and in other places within reach of the Shire. Three Elf-towers of immemorial age were still to be seen on the Tower Hills beyond the western marches. They shone far off in the moonlight. The tallest was furthest away, standing alone upon a green mound. The Hobbits of the Westfarthing said that one could see the Sea from the top of that tower; but no Hobbit had ever been known to climb it. Indeed, few Hobbits had ever seen or sailed upon the Sea, and fewer still had ever returned to report it. Most Hobbits regarded even rivers and small boats with deep misgivings, and not many of them could swim. And as the days of the Shire lengthened they spoke less and less with the Elves, and grew afraid of them, and distrustful of those that had dealings with them; and the Sea became a word of fear among them, and a token of death, and they turned their faces away from the hills in the west.* tbey repeat the mistake of Numenor, with their fear of death and mistrust of Elves. Bilbo was a revolutionary hobbit and changed the generation after him, I think mad baggins is not so incorrect! Very good stuff to consider, first after Frodo is almost drowned by Old Man Willow the first time Sam saves him, and then they visit the Tom and Goldberry, and Frodo has damn visions and dreams - Ulmo is sender of dreams, this cannot just be the fan's headcannon; Tolkien is too specific in the mode and construction with the narrator he chose. I did not comment before listening, btw. Sorry! Edit, adding the paragraph before your narration picks up*, slightly before the quote you read at

[@dlevi67]

Funny thing is Tolkien characterised his Hobbits in the years 'around' WWII; the closeness, exceptionalism/superiority and inward-looking character of the current Shires, as reflected in Brexit, are still present. How much this is because Britain is an island and a (past) maritime power... anyone's guess is as good as mine.

[@bundayeti]

"Frodo's got that Took in him" is Middle Earth's equivalent of "he's got that dawg in him"

[@jimbombadill]

what can one say about Frodos parents drowning? A good start, they were hobbits!

[@bigsarge2085]

Interesting, thanks!

[@sayagarapan1686]

Another epic episode that just goes above and beyond. Always taken in with the eloquent analysis of my favorite lore by GNG. Always so thorough I don't have any questions. Many unique insights that paint a broader picture than what I already possessed. What are you going to do when you run out of Tolkien talk? What ever it is I'm subscribed. Happy turkey stuffing ugh my pants don’t fit any more day!

[@dlevi67]

Luckily, it's going to be a while. Nearly 10000 pages of text to analyse.

[@EriktheRed2023]

Start over from the beginning to see how new epiphanies and observations have coloured previous ones.

[@jamth118]

Great video keep up the good work

[@hewe4625]

Coincidence that you uploaded this video mentioning orcification soon after the one mentioning wraithification? 😉 I find your connecting of water and major plot points intriguing, especially when considering water's connection to 2 of the 3 Silmarils. Thank you for your insights. They bring a deeper appreciation of the lore that I have otherwise overlooked.

[@ibrahimissaiaawad2888]

Your ideas are spot on… thanks!

[@corvid...]

This video presents so many interesting, insightful ideas... I am so glad I found this channel. Since I can't sleep it is now time to binge 😊

[@larrykuenning5754]

Here's a minor text-critical matter, which doesn't seem to affect the substance of your reflections but only the wording of a quotation. When you quoted the Prologue at 1:53 I tried to follow along with the text, only to find that the text before me differed slightly from what you used. It turns out that the four copies in my house are divided two against two. The two from the 1960s (a Ballantine paperback and a Houghton Mifflin hardback) agree with what you read. The other two (the 50th anniversary edition, well edited but with a few errors caught only afterwards, and another more recent edition that sometimes goes its own way into stupid errors) agree with each other in giving the quoted sentences in this form: "Three Elf-towers of immemorial age were still to be seen _on the Tower Hills_ beyond the western marches. They shone far off i the moonlight. The tallest was furthest away, standing alone upon a green _mound_." [The rest is as you quote. Underscore marks indicate where this differs from your quotation.] I have no explanation for these particular changes, but there they are in case it matters.

[@Enerdhil]

Interesting. Tolkien must have changed his mind and edited it in later releases or editions.

[@kevint1910]

one wonders if Sméagol's possession of the ring and his...proclivities may not only have haunted the Stoors out of their ancestral holes but also instilled a certain fear of the unseen and most especially that which lies below the surface of deep water? it is implied that Golloum had become unwelcome and was resentful how much of a stretch is it for him to have been harassing boats tipping people in and killing them? and how many of these inexplicable deaths would it take to run them off to the shire for refuge? he was effectively immortal and there is plenty of time for him to have been taking vengeance on his erstwhile relatives for their rejection of him before they show up as shire hobbits.

[@joshuastamos2213]

In medieval stories water is often used as a border between the world of men and fairy land. You see this often in earlier Arthurian stories where a knight crosses a stream before he meets something supernatural.

[@MrTNT49]

I am almost envious of how insightful you are

[@mikeynth7919]

The Hobbits by nature are an agrarian, settled, homebound people. Thus, they are not into travel, and water crossings means travel.

[@pamelah6431]

I've watched/listen to lots of LOTR commentary, and I have to say yours is the most insightful. It helps that you aren't trying to use Renaissance Faire accents and tin can effects for reading quotations, etc. But mainly, I'm impressed by the insight. I've read the books numerous times and haven't picked up on these things, but as soon as you start linking things together, I get it - like when the company is leaving Lorien and the elves say the river can't protect them anymore. Same in Osgoliath. Keep up the good work!

[@keithhinke3277]

My birthday is on Hobbit Day.

[@HowieChicago]

Happy thanksgiving

[@alanvatcher8374]

Melko shoved Gollum off the Cracks of Doom to spite that upstart Sauron.

[@sainiharika]

Was curious, why u don’t like Ulmo as you said ?

[@GirlNextGondor]

It's not that I *dislike* Ulmo! But a lot of people name him as their favorite of the Valar and I usually pick Aule or Manwe (or sometimes Melkor). As I recall, at the time of recording I'd been getting some (friendly) teasing about that. Ulmo is great, he provides the voice of reason (and compassion) without being rebellious or overly prideful.

[@sainiharika]

@@GirlNextGondorgot it girl ❤❤❤ your clarity is soo on point. It’s such a gift 🌟🌟🌟.

[@Enerdhil]

I wonder if the Hobbits understood There was power in the Brandywine River that kept the Ringwraith from crossing it. Perhaps the Nazgul could feel Ulmo's power in the water. They were also hesitant to cross the Bruinen and ended up getting wiped out by a wave. How do we know that Elrond didn't call on Ulmo to create that wave?

[@TarMody]

Is it Deagol's coincidence with the One Ring at the call of his awakening master is its that the One Ring want to find itself, or is it one of Ulmo's plans? We know from various examples that although Valinor was separated from Arda, Manwë was able to influence Middle-earth with its winds. Ulmo may have had a similar effect.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I don't know if I'd go so far to say that Ulmo had Deagol specifically in mind, but I suspect that his will was somehow involved in the Ring *only* being able to attract a finder/bearer among a people that by nature had limited ambition and resistance to Ringishness. Even the very wise cannot see all ends, but Ulmo probably sees a pretty high percentage of them 😉

[@joshuapatrick682]

There was always an apparent dichotomy in Water in middle earth. Flowing and clear and dark and stagnant. Wonder if that was metaphorical…

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

Take almost any path you please, and ten to one it carries you down in a dale, and leaves you there by a pool in the stream. There is magic in it. But of course, you will have to set out. Something a hobbit tends to avoid, if he can.

[@Joemantler]

I wonder... if you compare Water and The Sea to Baptism and The Flood, what that means for the Hobbits? They seem super nice, but were resistant to change and isolationist. Conversely, Gollum was covered in water, but ended up chosing an evil path nearly all the time.

[@kataihallenchrish]

11:42 oh wow at the end of tolkiens scrapped final ending Sam starts hearing sounds of the ocean when he goes inside his house, which i always thought meant that he started to long for valinor and frodo, not another adventure 😄 thats awesome Edit: makes sense now that i think about it however, cause in that final ending he talks to his daughter about not having started to write in the red book yet, only having made notes, maybe sams story that he will eventually put in the red book is what is calling to him

[@christophersheffield9574]

I know super long content is hard to get new viewers on board with but my god I love your really long vids. I noticed you stopped recently, and I get it, but you will get my upvote and comment for the algorithm gods if you do any more. Thanks.

[@pamelah6431]

20 minutes is not super long...

[@michaeldavis9190]

Something I'd like to point out that I feel you failed to consider... Real life little people generally have an aversion to water because their bodily proportions make swimming much more difficult. Little people tend to have a hard time floating too. I think their fear of the ocean comes from it being incomprehensibly large while they are particularly small. As for Gollum, I think him becoming more aquatic is representative of his corruption. He was meant to be on land, he was a land creature. By becoming aquatic, he rejected his nature and became something unrecognizable as what he really was. I like the things you've pointed out, but I don't personally think it's nearly as meaningful as you seem to view it as. I think it's very cool that we both read different meanings into the same details, though, and I think Tolkien would like that we could both interpret it differently.

[@hoppish088]

Not only Tuor and Earendil but the Numenoreans e.g. The guild of Venturers esp as personified by Aldarion

[@KatarzynaMatylla]

Everyone's favourite Vala? huh. Mine is Aule. He's got all the reasons to turn evil (loves technology; two of his Maiar beame evil; the dwarfs situation...) but never did. I bet other Valar are looking weirdly at him. Poor Aule. :( Also, for a certain interpretations of Mandos (ie: "we don't talk about Mandos...") he's probably my 2nd favorite. Or maybe third. Melkor-if-he-got-a-redemption-arc-because-yes-he-could is 2nd. But that's not exactly canon. Varda is cool too... All of them are ok. Though Aule is the best. Even if I'm not that much a fan of dwarves.

[@ianheins650]

Nice work

[@paulgaras2606]

It’s shocking to me that there is any Tolkien channel on KZbin with more subs than this one.

[@ardaea2529]

I still think Red Book is the best one but the subscriber gap between Red Book/GNG and the so-called big channels is disheartening. Terrible channels like the Broken Sword getting nearly a quarter of a million subscribers for reading out Tolkien Gateway articles. These channels put out better content than NotR and he will hit a million subs long before these ones ever reach anything close to 100k.

[@adamhoward7277]

Hey, where can I find the first video you mentioned on the dystopic elements in shire society?

[@Enerdhil]

There was a mill in the Shire that must have given positive vibes to the Hobbits that lived there. They could see Ulmo helping them without actually seeing Ulmo helping them. They knew nothing about the Valar unless they spoke to Bilbo or Frodo, so they weren't being ungrateful about the river. I am sure they took it for granted.

[@nowthenzen]

hobbits fear water bc water means change.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Basically 😉

[@pamdaniels7861]

Ulmo just loved drowning hobbits

[@jessmith7324]

I didnt knw if ulmo was still present during the 3rd age

[@johnnelson1228]

The Withyindle valley where they meet Tom who rescues them Frodo nearly drowns 🤔

[@charlessoukup1111]

Yearning mystery creation yeah, but really only the endless rhythm the background theme, metronome, syncopation...I grew up on a bluff above Lk Michigan, listening all night to it's rhythm or quiet lapping. It runs in my mind constantly...wondering what rhythm they listen to that had no ocean waves, or river sounds.

[@claybird121바람]

Where can I find the video mentioned at the outset?

[@hglundahl]

1:06 If you know some Greek myth, you may notice Tuor meets Ulmo at Nevrast is a calque on Theseus meets Poseidon at Troizen. When I was a teen, I actually enjoyed both. Since I read Hippolytus, I take it Poseidon was a devil, and when Theseus accepted him as "father" he basically did the equivalent of "taking one of the nine" - it obviously cost him his son, and if I recall the tragedy correctly, his second wife Phaedra too. This has quite a bit spoiled my appreciation for what is _otherwise_ a very touching part of Silmarillion.

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Manannan Mac Lir

[@hglundahl]

@@michaelsmyth3935 Is there any parallel with Manannan Mac Lir to either Nevrast or Troizen?

[@danielmapp4522]

One of my favorite Roman epics is the definitely the Aeneid though I haven't read it in years. Never heard of the tale of Theseus meeting with Poseidon in a old city though.

[@hglundahl]

@@danielmapp4522 Troezen is still a small town. It's not in the Aeneid. However, Aeneid VI is, and you find a sibyl that looks very close to a voodoo medium. Guess that makes Apollon a Pythonic spirit. The kind of being that St. Paul would expel from a slave girl.

[@petersteres9441]

If you want a modern version of Sauron, think Robert Moses.

[@nowthenzen]

Thanks!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you! 🥰

[@christianefiorito3204]

This reminds me very much on the function of different elements, Earth, water, fire and space or air in the Indian and also Chinese mythology and medicine. Where water, although it can be very destructive is?also cleansing and a symbol of rebirth. Even in science we think water is where life originated and mamnals children grow until birth in a water filled smniptic sack And yes, every new life is change?and risk and renewal. Great video

[@thylange]

I think Manwe , Ulmo and Varda were on the same page after the Noldor rebellion. I think that Manwe is forced to be neutral for "political reasons". Manwe does not want to cause a split within the Valar. There is a passage in early Silmarillion about the evil of Melkor infecting Valinor. I believe this applies for the Valar as well. Ulmo was always separate, so it's much safer if he helps Noldor and the rest of Middle earth. Why else would they leave Middle earth and it's inhabitants alone against Melkor?. And all the rest of the Middle earth residents had nothing to do with the Noldor rebellion and kin slaughter! Maybe they were afraid of the hurts of middle earth if they intervened? They did eventually anyway and Beleriand sank into the sea. I think the Valars treatment of the humans that became the Numenoreans suggest that they had a guilty conscience.

[@Enerdhil]

What do you mean? Everything Ulmo did behind Manwë's back was after the rebellion of the Noldor.

[@thylange]

@@Enerdhil I think that Manwe and Varda approved silently but did not want to take action to support Ulmo and The Noldor openly. This was to avoid an open conflict within the Valar.

[@Enerdhil]

@@thylange Manwë and Varda working together can see everything on the surface of Arda, but not the water. Ulmo's actions would have gone largely unnoticed. He rarely went to Valinor. Why do you think they knew what was doing. He is the most secretive Valar, almost antisocial.

[@Enerdhil]

Also, I agree that all three were on the same page, as Ulmo was never reprimanded for what he did. This was because Eru had bent the Ainulindalë that way. Ulmo was his instrument in those key events.

[@Enerdhil]

Yes. The Valar definitely messed up things by first intervening and then by passively waiting while all hell was breaking loose in Middle Earth. Numenor was the least they could have done for the Edain.

[@DneilB007]

Hey! I just watched this after watching the Necromancy video, and a weird idea popped into my head. The hobbits being afraid of water roughly corresponds with the conclusion of their westerly journey in the Second Age, and their westerly migration occurs approximately after the Fall of Numenor. Is that a coincidence? Or did some of the fea of the ordinary people of Numenor, denied entry into the Halls of Mandos, inhabit the soulless bodies of some kind of wood-sprite, hill-sprites, water-sprites, some kind of semi-magical creatures with physical hroa but no fea, some kind of lesser kin to Tom Bombadil or Goldberry the River-daughter. So the theory goes like this: After being taken captive by the people of Numenor, Sauron slowly corrupts the people (not just the leaders) to fear death & rebel against the Gift of Eru Iluvitar. When Eru destroys Numenor through a great flood, he guides the fea of the people who remained on the island eastward, to inhabit the hroa of the local wood-sprites, hill-sprites, and water sprites. With no memory of their past lives, they still somehow feel the need to travel westward (the direction of the Hall of Mandos, before the way was bent); when they get to a place from where they can see the Elf towers that look to the sea, they are overwhelmed by a vestigial fear of being trapped & drowned by water, just like they were in their prior lives. So they settled down in the Shire, a race of hybrid beings with the hardiness of Men and the natural resistance to Evil of a nature-sprite with no fea for Sauron to bend to his will. And thus, even in Sauron’s greatest triumph, the Fall of Numenor and the Corruption of Men, Eru Iluvitar used the results of his evil to create the conditions for his own destruction. In this reading, then, the hobbits’ fear of water is not a sign of their own incipient corruption; it’s an inherited phobia from their ancestors’ vague remembrance of their pre-reincarnated existence in Numenor and how it ended.

[@nicknaylor9895]

Ulmo is the gigachad of the Valar, Ar-Pharazôn was right, and the Numenoreans did nothing wrong. That is all.

[@jamesm1494]

First!?

[@jdspencer60]

Fathers of men, fair enough, although I would like to recognize the women of Middle earth and also the female Maia - I feel like there would also be gender fluid maia

[@Enerdhil]

How SJW of you.....😆🤣😂

[@jdspencer60]

@@Enerdhil okay