hobbyist vs. engineering carbon fiber (CF) filament - is there a difference?

[@idhardy]

My understanding is that it is the smaller particles that pose the greater health risk as they are more easily absorbed into body tissues especially in the lungs.

[@strelkomania]

@@idhardy exactly. Isn't it freaky how small the ones in the engineering one are ? But the average 3d printing enthusiast I don't think will be spending $260 Canadian on a 0.8 kg spool of Onyx 😅

[@eighty-eighth_section]

800cc of Onyx is closer to 1 kg actually.

[@truantray]

ItThe toxicity of materials in 3D printing is massively downplayed and the industry sells these materials with no test data at all for toxicity. Even some $120/l engineering grade resins that advertise ISO certification for biological safety are incredibly toxic after printing and post processing. The toxic UV sensitive monomers are a problem even after curing. None of this is tested, regulated, and the approach right now is to ostrich our heads. Not enough testing has been done on dental braces 3D printed. Carbon microfibers in lungs are as bad as asbestos. A famous F1 driver, Mika Salo, developed lung cancer later in life and the excised tumor tissue was full of carbon fibers from brake dust. Like asbestos, they do not break down and cause a chronic inflammation that eventually leads to disease.

[@chaschuky999]

@@truantray are any braces actually printed? My understanding was they typically print the guides for adhesion or the mold bases for invisalign. (invisalign is vacuum formed over 3d printed blanks)

[@tifauk]

This is why I don't mess with composite filaments...

[@802Garage]

Very interesting and well made video! I think some concerns over fiber filaments are overblown, but I will say I avoid touching my eyes whenever I work with them. I subbed and look forward to more videos.

[@Petch85]

The topic of 3D printing safety is super hot right now. Made with Layers also just made a video on ventilation when 3D printing at home. (3D printers are worse than I thought. Time to do something about it!)

[@strelkomania]

@@Petch85 I saw that video too! @NathanBuildsRobots you started a wave effect 🌊

[@Petch85]

@@strelkomania Nathan Builds Robots also have a nearly 3 year old video on ventilation. But there must be videos back form 2012-2015 when 3D printers at home took of. (But who can find anything on youtube anymore 🤷‍♂)

[@truantray]

The toxic nature of resins, and even fully cured resin prints is vastly understated. No one is regulating any of this, or even testing. A poorly annotated SDS is not good enough. What is even worse is that some suppliers are claiming lower toxicity fraudulently. An ISO standard is an industry standard, not FDA standard.

[@GoldenButteredBread]

Your video quality goes up with every upload! Keep it up :)

[@strelkomania]

Glad to hear you enjoy the small improvements :) thank you !!

[@JackZhao-b5v]

back in college, we did a semester of research on this for NCUR including a few other materials, it was tensile tested then put under micro scope to see the difference, pretty cool stuff.

[@PatrickHoodDaniel]

Very cool investigation of the carbon fiber filaments. Thanks for sharing! I would love to see the testing of tensile, flexure and impact.

[@Krzys_D]

I have one at work parts come out as strong as aluminum 6061

[@ualdayan]

Qidi has a GF25 filament that they say is 25% glass fiber rather than the normal 15%, but they coextrude it so all of the fibers are on the inside part of the filament with a layer of raw ABS on the outside. They claim the finished parts therefore won’t have fibers on the outside. It would be interesting to see if that’s actually true.

[@BowlGOfficial]

technically not 100% possible as the extruded lines will always have a start and end point where the ends stick out, probably means less of it, but problem is still present

[@AwestrikeFearofGods]

13:35 You misread the Chat GPT response. It was describing Nylon 6, not caprolactam itself. The function of caprolactam additive was never described, but unpolymerized caprolactam has an odor, and (as a low-melting-point monomer) would have very poor mechanical properties. If I had to guess, it's probably functioning as a non-contaminating lubricant, plasticizer, or coating. It can be dissolved in water or other volatile solvents. After evaporation of the solvent (if any) and upon heating, (e.g. during filament manufacture), caprolactam polymerizes to Nylon 6, removing contamination concerns before shipment to the customer.

[@jackshett]

Keep in mind that the two base materials have different weights. So the weight ratios alone don't paint the whole picture. Filled filaments are cool, but in most cases are not good except the few cases they're the best for. I personally use 3DXTech's filled filaments and some of their more exotic options that are still within the realm of the typical enclosed voron printer :).

[@strelkomania]

Noted - that is how the weight by weight percent ratios work. I should've done the calcs. The Bambu Lab PLA-CF has density of 1.22 g/cm^3 while the Markforged nylon-cf has a density of 1.2g/cm^3. Not too big of a difference but still not an immediate direct comparison. I pulled those numbers from the materials technical data sheets. Those are linked in the video description. Thank you for your comment !

[@BrentLeVasseur]

Bambu just released a new PPA-CF filament, which has me interested. I am less concerned with fibers getting stuck in my skin and more concerned with it’s strength, heat resistance, and durability as a possible competitor to other main stream PETG-CF or PLA-CF filaments. But it’s always good to know the health risks and wear proper protection while handling these materials.

[@Nemesishk]

Very stiff one, that, almost 10,000 MegaPascals in Flexural modulus.

[@testboga5991]

Yeah, the difference is that one says "engineering". But since that's not a protected name, it means little.

[@eighty-eighth_section]

I think the concrete takeaway firm the video is that there is some risk of fiber transfer into the skin with fiber filled materials (potentially any fiber filled materials). I would say there is no distinction between hobby grade and engineering grade. There are simply different materials with different carbon fiber sources, specs, and fiber loading percentage. Bambus PLA-CF is marketed towards engineering (more aesthetic than mechanical though), and especially Bambus other filled materials (eg PAHT-CF, PPS-CF...). And whos to say no one can use engineering materials for hobby use.

[@truantray]

With 3D print resins, my biomedical research lab's experience is that these speciality engineering resin companies in Europe are just lying about toxicity, while Asian sources will admit they never tested.

[@hrmny_]

Interesting comparison It seems like for most of the shots your camera would really benefit from more light, especially the ones where you're filming paper from above

[@guesswork]

Cool video idea. That Mark forged machine is pretty interesting.

[@Petch85]

9:55 It looks like the fibers get everywhere. You can see the under you nails in this shot. edit: You clear also noticed that 16:27 🤦‍♂

[@strelkomania]

I'm glad you caught that too! I was surprised how "everywhere" they go...

[@Petch85]

@@strelkomania yes it looks worse than I would have imagined. Especially rubbing the print after printing. I have never 3D printed carbon fiber PLA, I have never really had a printer that could print in a high enough quality that it would have made any difference. But 40% higher stiffness is super tempting when designing part with spring functionality. The combination of being able to print a stiff material like PLA and a "soft" material like a stiff TPU covers so many use cases. Especially if you can print in 2 materials for the same part. I have worked with insolation materials, glass fiber ley-ups, carbon fiber ley-ups, cutting and sanding in them. Mostly with protection against the epoxy. So I probably already have a lot of indestructible fibers inside my body, but I don't think there is any reason for me to start 3D printing with carbon fibers in my home. 😂

[@Splarkszter]

​@@strelkomania Imagine how are your lungs

[@backtoreality5849]

nice video. of course we all would like to see more and I particularly like the snapped filament shots. If you do test printed parts, please snap a piece off and show us a close up of the raw edge of a printed part, I would also like to know of any ways to clean most of the fibres off your hands like a sticky substance that could pull the fibres off.

[@backtoreality5849]

i was going to say "snap one of the frogs legs off" but that just sounds cruel.

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Hey, I’ve seen this one before 😂 Markforged is cool stuff

[@NathanBuildsRobots]

Can you do cf tow + raw nylon outer shell? IMO that would be the best of both worlds for strength + safety

[@strelkomania]

Thank you for the video inspo 😇

[@strelkomania]

Also unfortunately its not that simple. The Markforged system slicer is cloud based and called Eiger. It makes it "impossible" for you to print the fiber on the outside like a shell or to print only with the continuous fiber - it HAS to be inside the part. But you can pause the print to expose stuff strategically. I'm not going to say its actually impossible (nothing is) but I'd need to figure out how to get through the print file encryption and all the printer safety checks etc... would be a hannah montana moment for sure (best of both worlds).

[@roundcheesewheel]

Interesting results, I've always wondered what are the differences between real engineering filaments and hobby level filaments. Thanks

[@strelkomania]

@@roundcheesewheel no problem ! I think it goes deeper into the material science as well as the quality of each individual ingredient. On top of the manufacturing process. Mechanical properties can greatly vary in terms of consistency roll to roll. Thank you for stopping by and watching !

[@aware2action]

Only detailed video on the topic. Definitely plan on a overcoating, while using these materials. What would be it, is the next question🤔❤️👍👍

[@RichFreeman]

Hmm, I was kinda hoping for a comparison of hobbyist vs engineering CF nylon. Such as bambulab PA6-CF vs your Onyx brand. Lots of people have tested PLA-CF and other than surface finish it doesn't have much going for it.

[@x_ph1l]

Wow, I didn't think that the fibers will transfer that easily! Now I have less incentive to print with carbon or glass filled filaments, even if I really like them. Oh, production quality increase - verygut!

[@strelkomania]

Me neither to be frank ! Nathan's videos from the Nathan Builds Robots channel inspired the comparison in this episode. I have linked them both in this video description if you are curious. I was pretty surprised to see the fibers get stuck under my finger nails too. It was an insightful experiment.

[@fail_fast]

Love this!

[@brbubba]

Now add CF filled SLS prints and do another comparison. I'd like to see if any CF prints can be "safe".

[@elephantwalkersmith1533]

The real danger of cf is inhalation. Unlike CF-resin matrixes, the CF in these Onyx or other types of print filaments, the CF is not encapsulated by resin. The hazards of CF during 3d printing should be reduced by proper ventilation or inhalation filtration masks rated for the size of the particles in the filament.

[@Petch85]

2:19🤓 Me looking at the data sheets 😂 Surprisingly good data sheets. ONYX even shows a tensile test 👏

[@strelkomania]

Of course - I knew people would be curious !! Especially you haha. Markforged datasheets are quite good. They have a metal filament system too (not the one in the video, it's called "Metal X") and they have a lot of technical info on the metal structures of the parts and the properties after printing, and sintering etc. I'd surely hope as an engineering grade material and system that they have their datasheets and technical info dialed in. With the hobbyist spools its a hit or miss, specially the ones you might just randomly buy on amazon. It has made it hard a few times trying to find specific properties of an amazon purchased spool like (water absorption rate) when my group as writing a paper... noted to self.

[@eighty-eighth_section]

@@strelkomania what is the paper/research on? You mentioned on the video you were trying to reach someone in the Markforged materials team. I can help with that.

[@shakirsalam555]

Nice, Dora! Your video quality seems to be improving. What camera equipment are you using now? 👌👌

[@truantray]

Well done. In my research lab we came to the similar conclusions with 3D print resins. We were looking for a way to make chambers to grow human cells and after years of testing over 20 resins, including ISO certified resins, we concluded there was no difference in toxicity between certified engineering resins and consumer resins, they were all toxic. Various post processing protocols made no difference. It comes down to a poor ISO standard, which is a standard concocted by the industry. I would not print any plastic without external venting, HEPA and VOC mask filtration and children's toys should not be made by any method of 3D printing. I have serious concerns about dental braces made by 3D printing, as these are not adequately tested due to FDA loopholes.

[@GeekDetour]

Hi there! It is a nice video - and I got excited at the beginning when you said you would compare filaments with different fibre sizes... Unfortunately you didn't actually test any physical properties like differences in strength. Maybe on the next video :)

[@strelkomania]

Yep, you caught me red handed. Or, should I say fiber handed ? In all seriousness, no I didn't end up comparing physical properties in this video. My two reasons for that were, I just wanted to take a look at the fiber transfer/containment in this video. Also at the time of filming, the Markforged system at school was not set up to print yet and I was just using the few calibration prints that came off the machine while the technician was working. I'd like to actually print my own samples and test them and then collect that data in the near future if I want to do a video about the properties then just compare data sheets if that makes sense. BUT if I just compare data sheets it would be a faster release video - maybe comparing physical properties of all CF offered by Bambu or something... You've got my gears turning (they never stop lol)

[@GeekDetour]

@@strelkomania Looks like you need your own 3D Printer - they are not expensive. Ignore data-sheets, do your own experiments. You know the "My Tech Fun" channel by Dr. Igor? Check it out! He does lots of tests with filament.

[@viduraherath4008]

With more companies trying to get into the untapped low cost sls printing market, do you think that sls printers may use carbon fibre mix powders? I understand that they might not evenly spread out the same as with a filament and if the densities are different they could even just separate from the rest of the material in packaging but could it work?

[@GerManBearPig]

That's not how it works, the powders are made up from polymer particles with the carbon fiber and everything else already incorporated

[@MumrikDK]

Amount of CF: "proprietary" Jeeeeeeez...

[@marcustomlinson1433]

When capturing images with your digital microscope, try image stacking using software like Picolay to improve the image quality under magnification.

[@strelkomania]

@@marcustomlinson1433 I didn't know you could do this or that this existed... thank you for this tip I will look into it 🙂

[@Rob_65]

I normally get my MSDS from the company I buy my materials from - they are legally obliged to provide me those on request (and they will - it's even on their own website). But more importantly: Why are we so focused on the carbon content and how these fibers look ? According to the MSDS, there is no GHS classification for the carbon fibers . Why doe all the 3D printing "experts" think they know better than the people designing these categories ???

[@ytskt]

I came across somewhere that CF PLA has less tensile strength than Plain PLA , is it true ?

[@RichFreeman]

Yeah, there is really no reason to use PLA-CF other than for surface finish.

[@eighty-eighth_section]

No, not necessarily. Bambu PLA-CF published tensile is 38 MPa and PLA Basic is 35 MPa. Also consider the bulk material properties will be diffywith the printed part. The printed part has the benefit of the fibers aligning in the direction of the extrusion.

[@RichFreeman]

@@eighty-eighth_section I think the main benefit is in reducing the creep and bending of filaments like PA. The strength does improve as well I think. The benefit of CF seems pretty minimal of lower temp materials like PLA or PETG (though it would definitely stiffen the latter). Really though if I care that much about strength I'm going to be using a high temp material. I am curious how different grades of PA6/etc compare but the whole reason I got an enclosed consumer printer is to be able to use the high temp stuff.

[@eighty-eighth_section]

@@RichFreeman I agree the main selling point of PLA-CF is not mechanical performance. I'm just nitpicking that it does not necessarily have less tensile strength. And tensile strength is not the only strength property. Some PA materials suffer from creep due to moisture absorption, especially thin parts. (Like Onyx).

[@adamlam3080]

maybe pur a piece of each into a jar, with some benzyl alcohol, seal it up real good and leave it in the sun somwhere. should dissolve the nylon away and let u see the filaments seperately

[@strelkomania]

@@adamlam3080 I'll need to try this... Thank you

[@23lkjdfjsdlfj]

Oh my! I'm NEVER EVER using any glass or carbon fiber filament!

[@dsprecision4782]

Why are people like you so nonexistent. Technical minded and curious. Not to be a typical thirst trap but beautiful also. Like a needle in 100 haystacks... Seriously though, keep up the hard work, it'll take you far!

[@Splarkszter]

I hate these materials marketing because it's like if i say that adding steelndust to the filament will make it stronger. THAT'S NOT HOW THOSE MATERIALS WORK! 😭😭😭 The reason kevlar and CB work is because you make fabric-like sheets with them. Not by adding them like glitter at random.

[@eighty-eighth_section]

@@Splarkszter I'm a materials engineer. The additives do make a difference. I've done mechanical testing for 3D printing materials. It's not exactly random either. The short fibers align when they extrude out the nozzle. You'd be surprised at what other "dusts" are used in filament production are capable of.

[@Splarkszter]

@@eighty-eighth_section The thing I'm concerned about is safety. Handling carbon fiber REQUIRES dust masks and everything. But people don't seem to know that if it's on a filament? We seriously need to require and educate people on safety standards.

[@bennycarter5249]

Chat GPT ruins the soul. And those fibers will ruin your lungs.

[@AdventurePrinting]

Brava!

[@markfen88]

you should compare pa6-cf from both manufacturers. Not a very apples-to-apples comparison pla-cf with pa6-cf

[@glennfelpel9785]

Your videos and the content are very good. But please tell me why you go to all of the trouble to write out the technical information then don't even give us a good opportunity to at least take a screen shot of it. That would be very nice of you in the future. Remember we are not as quick thinkers as you are. Thank you for all the effort you put into your videos!

[@strelkomania]

Ah great feedback & absolutely noted for the next video! thank you !

[@eliprotiva222]

I can send you some bambu lab paht-cf and some polymake pa6 if you’re interested in testing

[@Nemesishk]

Nice video, i've been avoiding touching carbon fiber prints since I saw this thing about the fibers getting on your fingers, Now I'm using PEKK to replace all the carbon fiber items which I would usually have to touch

[@iopfarmer]

Not so easy from a maker point of view, but I also avoid fiber filled materials, so nasty... PC Polycarbonate is easy enough to print on consumer printers and really more than tough enough for every day practical prints.

[@Nemesishk]

@@iopfarmer I'm printing PEKK on a qidi x-max 3, it's going for about $769 Advertised as 350C extruder and 65C chamber, but it'll let you go to 359C extruder and around 69C chamber, 125C bed

[@alijah1539]

Mam I wish I could have gone to college.

[@solotekle2999]

Why can't you go now?

[@magatsu82]

white balance left the room

[@strelkomania]

the lighting in our lab room is SO yellow. like what you see in this video is how it looks - I used the raw footage and didnt even try balancing it out. surprisingly you are the first person to comment on how weird it looks - haha

[@s26me]

ChatGPT as a source. ok.

[@xantiom]

That's not how Chat-GPT should be used. Don't search for information that you don't know, you have zero ways of knowing if it is an hallucination or not. Chat-GPT must be used to improve productivity on subjects you already dominate, so you can check for mistakes.

[@xantiom]

Also, you can't cite Chat-GPT as a source of information. *Face Palm*

[@georgenovtekov4351]

The bigger the fibers the better as you lungs are very good to filter large fibers and very bad in the smallest particles.

[@novakinb]

definitely not opening my two boxes of PLA-CF!!! 🫣

[@iopfarmer]

Wear a respirator, handel it with gloves, then paint the printed part with transparent lacker. Should do the trick ;) But yeah this material is nasty.

[@novakinb]

@@iopfarmer ill stick to PETG ;)

[@eighty-eighth_section]

@@novakinb depending on the usage, I think the risk is a little overblown. I rarely touch my filament unless I'm loading. And very briefly. I don't rub the filament, and I don't generally rub my parts. I'm going to do some follow up tests like in the video though. Bambu PLA-CF is actually one of my favorites to print with. What colors of PLA-CF do you have? I might buy it off of you?