Hobie Mirage Drive vs Old Town PDL

[@Charactermatters650]

In my third year in the Pred PDL - heavy use and no real problems. Running it in salt and fresh. You should use corrosion x grease made for marine applications and re-grease the prop shaft and sheer pin (small drive pin on the inside center of the prop. - twice a season (takes 10 minutes tops). I carry a spare prop and it is zip tied to my milk crate (out of the way). I also carry a few spare sheer pins (you can make your own by cutting hardened drill bits to size after you find the right size bit to match the old pin). Keep the sheer pin well greased as they can corrode in time and rust out - no problems if you follow my tips. Prop and sheer pins can be replaced out on the water if needed - carry the right wrench for the prop nut. I also grease the pedal shafts (10 minutes - easy to do) once a season and then they stay very quiet. I always rinse my yak well after salt water use -especially the prop drive part. I love this Old Town yak - even did the steering knob upgrade and it was inexpensive and easy to install. The instant reverse is key for many fish - both fighting them and staying back from disturbing a prime spot - you find yourself using it as instinct all the time. I also think the bulk of the pedal drive spreads the force of pedaling - compared to the Hobie stressing two small spots, causing problems over time. I also got this for exercise and find the pedaling motion is much better for fitness than the back and forth of the Hobie.

[@scotturner3178]

Thanks! Video didn't cover the ergonomics of prolonged use and that's important to me too. Just no way that reciprocating motion is gonna be fun for more than a half hour.

[@liamgarvey33]

Hi Jim, I understood from OT that the PDL drives are maintenance free, but of course what you said makes perfect sense. I am on my first season with a new (old stock) predator and I have had her out around 15 times in salt water and she is such a great boat. I wash down after each run, but I haven't done anything else yet. Perhaps you could tell us, exactly where you apply the marine corrosion grease, and I assume its not just a standard marine grease, but a anti corrosion formula, looked up "corrosion X" but couldn't find it. It would be good to know precisely where you apply it and how much. very informative and useful post, many thanks.

[@Charactermatters650]

@@liamgarvey33 Also, Navarre Kayak Fishing is the best you tube channel for OT PDL videos on maintenance and use (by far). This guy Nick is plain spoken and helpful - even has videos of some of the things I am talking about. He also sells some handy upgrade equip. for the PDL (floating prop nut and floating wrench are good things to have in boat for sure) - If my sheer pin broke that time, I could have fixed it on the spot if I had spare sheer pins and wrench - a floating one makes it saner. I have read of at least one guy hitting something and breaking his prop - so I carry spare prop - don’t want to be a mile out and having to paddle all the way back - prepare for the worst. I also have a rope bag under my seat attached to one side of the kayak so it makes it easier to “right” the kayak if I tip over. Throw the rope over the kayak to the other side and pull it over. Also, I always wear my PDF vest and carry a “Spot3” satellite locater in case of emergency - I go to some out of the way places.

[@liamgarvey33]

@@Charactermatters650 Many Thanks Jim, I will check out the floating prop nut/wrench for sure. I am relatively new in a fishing Kayak so I won't be going a mile out, however, I hit sea weed quite often here, North Atlantic inshore and I imagine that if you were going fast enough and the weed was strong, you could potentially do the pin. I noticed a slight intermittent squeak from the foot pedal coming in today, so I guess I will be lubing before the end of the season. Generally, I would say the PDL drive is pretty bomb proof but I will get a spare prop and pins and the tools and keep them onboard. Not sure what the life of the PDL drive is, but the boat will defiantly outlast it. Maybe it's an expensive idea to eventually get a back up PDL. I guess Oldtown will improve on the existing design, so interesting see what comes alone. kind regards and safe Kayaking!

[@Charactermatters650]

@@liamgarvey33 Thanks - I have never had to replace that prop, so the original is quite good - the PDL drive is also still good - 5 years now running it hard (I said 3 years, a year ago but was off by one year). I use it a lot. I live just north of Boston - fish NH and MA. Salt and fresh water. Where are you fishing?

[@dub5355]

PDL: 5 yr warranty, it floats, instant reverse, and oh so quiet! Enough said.

[@robertbuckley2108]

To add to the "repairability" section of the drives: While the Hobie drive is easier to repair overall, the cost of the parts is prohibitive. Fins tear pretty easily. Fins cost $40 or more for a single fin so it makes it difficult to keep spares on hand for on the spot repairs. The PDL drive is a closed system so internal repairs are usually not needed unless something crazy happens. The main parts that break are the props. Props cost about $5 shipped so keeping spares is easy. I point this out because some of us use these systems to get several miles offshore and on-the-spot repairs can save a day of fishing.

[@spiltmilt]

Good point!

[@richardbrown986]

I fish inshore during high and low tide covering miles , I have yet to tear my fins . And you can butterfly kick in really shallow water

[@nathanbutcher1864]

Not even that it’s 200$ now for a set of turbo fins

[@eddyaruda486]

The best comparison between the two I've ever seen! Great job! Thank you!

[@prestieb]

Very thorough review on kayak pedal drive systems. Interesting the PDL drive tested higher for torque as most people 'feel' the mirage drives produce higher torque. Great that you went through the trouble to actually test this parameter. Really enjoyed the video, excellent cinematography and great audio quality considering this video was shot on the water. Keep up the top shelf work!

[@peterbrown216]

A very useful comparison of the two drives. An additional issue for the Hobie mirage drives is a tendency for the mounting system to fail. Mine did last week, which is why I was interested in your comparison. In my hobie, and many others, the mounting bracket is under engineered and can not cope with the stress that comes from operating the drive. The hull cracks under the bracket, around the brass connection points. This is under the water line, so the hull can flood. You can possibly plastic weld the cracks, but not make the drive structural sound. Hobie are aware of the problem and lots of discussion online. Three year warranty not adequate.

[@ChristoCurrents]

What year was your kayak? I was under the impression from the forums that they fixed this issue. Sorry for your loss, either way!

[@Charactermatters650]

They are still cracking

[@ChristoCurrents]

@@Charactermatters650 I dont have any issue with mine.

[@jimoshier6957]

A2

[@Sdemmy980]

I feel in general the old town will out perform the test of time by a long shot between the two and 4life hull warranty. I watched a video of a dude go through like 5 360 drives in under a year and snapped the cable numerous times.. he paid 5,800 for the pa 14, 360 WITHOUT TAX INCLUDED. The pdl has way less mechanical parts and a replacement prop is ten dollars. It’s basically a metal gear and shaft to make it spin in a sealed case. Oh and 1,000-4,000 cheaper than the hobie pa 12,14 and outback. I think hobies are awesome but I’m not spending 6k on something that won’t last when the warranty is gone. I can just buy two or three pdl’s for that price. Old town provides that warranty for peace of mind but it’s pretty much bulletproof

[@jaaaake777]

' Hobie comes out on top in the cost category' That's a sentence I never thought I'd ever hear!

[@spiltmilt]

They make up for it somewhere else in there 🤣

[@fishhunt3471]

Personally, I’m a Hobie guy, but I see the appeal of other brands, between cost and instant reverse I can see the pros, but I think it ultimately comes down to the waters you are fishing. In deep water it’s a coin toss for me. The only two advantages I give to Hobie are being able to flutter kick in shallow water and the ability to have the fins up against the hull when fighting a bigger fish. A week or so ago I had a 21.7 pound carp I hooked walleye fishing keep diving and swimming around where my drive was. That doesn’t happen often, but my advice is to pick what you are comfortable with. Tight lines y’all!

[@brysche]

Very well done comparison. Possibly the best I’ve seen. I especially appreciate testing and comparing both mirage drives. For me, investing in a pedal kayak is a huge deal and I want as much info as possible before pulling the trigger. Thanks again!

[@spiltmilt]

Happy to help. I hope this helps you find the best kayak for your needs. Happy fishing!

[@jay-tea415]

same as bryce here. fish a lot of inland lakes in michigan i was set on getting the predator PDL but am now considering the less expensive and 1 foot shorter top water PDL. i will be using a trailer to haul it around. for my first pedal drive do you think i should spend more and get the predator or go with the topwater

[@GM-le5ti]

@@jay-tea415 i got a 10.6 top water kayak with pdl almost 2 years ago. I fish salt water marshes and channels in south Texas. I can throw this thing on the back of my truck without a problem. I love the fishability of this yak so much that i sold my hobie outback after it collected dust for a year. It was hard to let go for the sentimental value and memories we endure together.

[@docbailey3265]

I’ve used both. I like the instant reverse of the PDL. But it is heavy. I also snapped one of the blades of the propeller and couldn’t even tell. The blades were easy and cheap to replace.

[@timmoore9736]

In 2017 Hobie came out with a reversible drive (2 cables) and I think they have donoe some engineering upgrade in it. Not instant, but also does not require pulling up the drive and turning it 180.

[@kevintoepper2828]

I've watched countless videos on this very subject and I think you finally made up my mind thank you very much kind sir. Instant reverse floats.

[@Sdemmy980]

A huge difference between the two is the pdl drive has a lot less mechanical parts that may break and way more reliable over time. Sure the 10 dollar prop might break but way cheaper than the 200 dollar set of fins. The hobies have had a ton of issues in the 180 and 360 (current) in longevity. I saw a dude replace 5 of the 360 drives and 3 cables within 9 months.. for half the price I went pdl 120.

[@greg6162]

Which drive is faster would you say… Hobie’s vs the Old Town PDL? I’m assuming the Old Town’s the fastest bicycle/propeller style drive… or is there better/faster drives?

[@Sdemmy980]

@@greg6162 the pdl is faster especially if you go with the 120 or big water version. Just a slow cruise I effortlessly go about the max speed as the hobies. The big water version is even faster but less stable

[@socalangler723]

@@greg6162 The pdl has more thrust which should generate more power/speed, which is true with the bigwater and Salty models BUT there is also the hull design factor. The sportsman hull design is not meant for speed but more for stability.

[@MegaPeedee]

This comparison review was excellent. I have used Mirage drives for many years and never had a problem other than a rubber toe strap breaking and I never had any rattles or squeaking. I had the long turbo blades (on Hobie Mirage TIs … I had one, broke the boat and bought another). I am about to buy a Hobie Oasis and I noticed it comes with the 180 pedals, which are considerably shorter. I asked the dealer on the phone about the difference as I was concerned with thrust and he assured me that the new shorter designed blades were stiffer and had about the same power as the older longer blades. Thanks for posting this.

[@zlm2032]

I’ve owned several different Hobie kayaks and they’re great. However the capability of the PDL drive with instant reverse is a game changer IMO. I’ll be buying a new Sportsman PDL 120 very soon.

[@ArbitraryLifestyle]

The instant reverse is the only feature that stands out on a prop drive, it's incredibly useful when needed, but rarely do I need to quickly reverse. I absolutely love that the Outbacks and PAs have rudder controls on both sides now, that feels way more important and I use it a lot since I hold my rod in my left hand.

[@DinsmoreOutdoors]

More power and instant reverse!! PDL is my choice! Thank you for putting this video together!

[@Danxiong]

Instant reverse was the selling point for me.

[@the45er]

The ONLY advantage I see to Hobies right now is the fact that the fin system can be "fluttered" in very shallow water whereas the PDL cannot, so in floating vegetation, it clogs. However, I own a PDL kayak and it is very, very easy to quickly lift the drive and remove weeds. If I need to go more that a few feet through a weed bed, I simply raise the drive and paddle or push-pole through them. Hobie has countered the "instant reverse" feature of the PDL with a 360 degree drive, but to buy a boat with this feature will cost 40% more than a Old Town. The new Hobie Lynx has now gained another advantage over the OT PDL boats - WEIGHT. An OT Sportman 106 fully rigged will weigh 106 lbs. The Hobie Lynx is 61 lbs. BIG difference but you will pay $700 more for that advantage.

[@spiltmilt]

Yes but the Lynx is not very durable.

[@johnlieu]

360 is very nice, but man that mark-up over the OT PDL feels a bit absurd.

[@careychen7275]

I have had both the Hobie and the Old Town PDL. The Hobie I had was the older 12' model SUV and currently own the PDL topwater 10.5. As a cyclist the pedal drive kayaks are what made them attractive to me. I don't fish just wanted something I could get out on the water that I could power with my legs. So based on the overall package, drive system paired with their proprietary hull, the Hobie is a much faster kayak versus the Top Water. My top speed in the Hobie was 4 knots continuous. Where as the Top Water I can only manage 3.5 knots. Your comparison based on drive system design was fair. The overall design package should also be considered. The Hobie hull design is clearly more efficient. I have the PDL now as I had sold off my Hobie. But as the Hobie's price had doubled in the last 10 years the PDL was more affordable. But I could afford a newer Hobie I would have bought one.But despite the speed difference the PDL is more maneuverable than the older Hobie I had.

[@spiltmilt]

Get an Old Town Salty 120 PDL. Fastest pedal drive on the market

[@D0nk3yzz]

I'm in the market for one of these kayaks and this video was very helpful! I haven't seen many videos that put these two together like this.. Thanks!!

[@kerrypitt9789]

To me the mirage drive is the clincher. I'm not dead set against the PDL Drive but grass can be an issue. Pulling the reverse strap is no worse than driving a manual. Thank you for all of your work on this!

[@watchluver]

If you are fighting a fish having to shift forward and backward gets old real fast.

[@experimentalfishing1292]

3 years with my PDL..never broke. Still runs like new.

[@spiltmilt]

Mine too. Very reliable

[@motomattness5623]

This is the best review I have seen for these drives. I have been doing a lot of research and I think this has helped me make my decision

[@collieyak971]

I am from Western Australia, I have “Old Town PDL Drive” I had a warranty issue and had to send it to QLD Australia 4000kms away as there is no local service centre. I lost my drive for 6 weeks. On a positive note, it’s failed once and all my mates have had multiple failures with there Mirage Drives. Shallow areas are fine, it’s an extremely resilient drive, I’ve bumped into logs and rocks with out effect or issue and my mates have snapped fins ect so I think the PDL all the way in that arena

[@TC-yx1qt]

Your comment is now two years old... do you still think the Old Town is more reliable and durable than the Mirage Drive?

[@collieyak971]

@@TC-yx1qt I do how ever we have list service and support here in Western Australia and I have an issue I need repaired and can not get it done with out sending it to another country now so although more reliable over all as a product the customer service where I live doesn’t exist

[@winnieyyc-fox9612]

Thank you very much for sharing! I think I like the PDL more. Much appreciated your demonstration! Great job!

[@tigersaint124]

I'm Team Hobie because I fish the shallow marsh of South Louisiana. I never use my paddle unless I'm stuck. If I was fishing deeper water I'd probably have the PDL.

[@spiltmilt]

For sure that makes sense. I'd love to get down there after some reds and trout someday.

[@tylerchapman2511]

I’m in south Louisiana and going kayak fishing for the first time in a couple weeks with my son and a guide. The guide provides everything and uses predators. I was thinking the hobie would be more applicable down here. I’m hoping this is something we really enjoy so that we can invest in our own equipment. Are you fresh water or salt water fishing mostly?

[@tigersaint124]

@@tylerchapman2511 95% Salt/Brackish. Reds, Trout and Flounder.

[@mikemcdonald5147]

I dont own a kayak yet but have been looking hard at them. Im a Jon boat bass boat guy. I haven't seen a comparison video about the drives yet so this was really good and made me make a decision because of your video. Thank you for that.

[@dandexinventor]

I have neither, yet. I'm using KZbin to help make a decision. Thanks, good info.

[@Cliffdog155]

Right!? I just want someone to say this is the best ocean fishing Kayak. Go buy it lol

[@fishingbanditsilva8257]

Hobie I got the hobie mirage compass 2019 and I got caught by a nasty current in the ocean REDONDO BEACH/PALOS VERDES "CALIFORNIA" and I was able to make out after waves smacked me around and lost half my gear. Im looking at other kayak to get my girlfriend one but thinking of staying Hobie

[@mikesigncarver3803]

For fishing rivers and lakes PDL ALL THE WAY BECAUSE OF INSTANT REVERSE

[@TubeYou7]

Instant reverse is a really big deal especially when fishing. Don't let anyone tell you different.

[@Thefishingplumber]

Same man I’m thinking the old town salty 120 pdl

[@Captkid1]

Thanks for making this video. It is very helpful. Reading all the comments…. You seem to have a preference toward Hobie, and that is OK. It’s your video. That said, being an unbiased fisherman who owns boats (plural) and looking to expand my fishing into the shallows hurricane Michael left in our Bay, your video is a good find for me. In the same vein, Hobie is just shy of double a comparable Old Town, as of this writing. Hobie’s 360 drive is becoming the new Hobie high end standard and also cost $1000 with shipping. It is not available currently. Hobie outsources it parts, and the 360 drive is on eternal back order. Most likely due to being made offshore somewhere. The Hobie 360 Angler is $5500 and the Old Town Predator PDL is $2600. Given the warranty, the made in USA, the available parts and accessories and the price difference…. Old Town is a serious fishing kayak consideration for me. Thanks again, very informative and a big part of my pre-purchase research.

[@perfectten7077]

used both for years and i prefer the old town PDL drives . they just feel better and instant reverse is huge when in creeks to come to a stop on a dime to avoid sunken logs etc

[@frogdog5604]

The PDL is the way to go. Maintenance free 5 year warranty and it has reverse instantly. Its amazing. so smooth. and you never have to strip the drive down to replace anything. THE PDL JUST WORKS. and its not that bulky. its easier to install and uninstall than the hobie. and the kayak its self is cheaper than the hobie. Go with PDL. you wont regret and the 100 more is justified.

[@4WDG]

Very informative and helpful video. I just purchased a tandem kayak with 2x peddle drives and was wondering if I made the correct choice, but you’ve answered that for me 100% thank you kind sir 👍👍👍 from South Africa 🇿🇦

[@eddielikesfishing]

PDL has durability. If you hit a submerged object, the locking knobs are designed to break so the drive does not. Yes, the prop will break, but it is a five dollar part. If the drive goes out of warranty, they are repairable. Nick Lytle of Navarre Kayak Fishing produces videos on these units. He also makes and sells aftermarket parts for Old Town vessels.

[@TWC6724]

Wow, I didn’t know that it has a design feature to break free so the dive doesn’t break. I’ve been trying to decide between the Native drive and OT. I like the hull design and features of the native but preserving the drive from breaking is a great feature.

[@eddielikesfishing]

@@TWC6724 Indeed it is a great feature. I'd rather have a sacrificial feature that costs a few bucks than spend big bucks for a new drive. Those locking knobs are about $5.00 each as opposed to $1000.00 plus.

[@eddielikesfishing]

Geography can be a deciding factor. Get the yak that will best fit the bodies of water that you will fish in most of the time. What kind of fishing do you do? What fish are you targeting? You'll probably be happier with your decision if you do take this into consideration.

[@milton_quadros]

I always wanted to take this test, I never had a chance. Thank you for doing so. Because it is a human traction, to be conclusive, it has to be measured in force multiplied by time, that is, it has to pedal for at least 20 minutes adding the force applied every second and extrapolating the result to 1 hour of pedaling. .

[@saigonslim]

Thank you very much for your excellent experiment. I'm doing open water fishing and need much of thrust power so I know what's I'm gonna get - PDL. Thanks again

[@MrElvisr27]

I like your professionalism.

[@shulifestyle]

Thank you for the detailed review of kayak drive systems. We are aiming towards a Feelfree Lure II tandem set up in 2023 and I am now comfortable with the PDL drive system that comes with it. We look forward to more of your great presentations and wish you continued success with your channel.

[@spiltmilt]

The feel free pedal drive is completely different from the one in this video that is manufactured by Old Town. They are not at all the same

[@miamiwax5504]

I've owned my old town for about months now and have had PLENTY of situations where I needed to reverse immediately. Also I find when I fish in current I make micro adjustment pedaling forward and backwards to maintain my position. I could never imagine owning a hobie and having to pull a freaking latch each time I want to go backwards. It's ridiculous to even think about it. Funnier still is before the 180 drive came out people were saying how you don't need to reverse or you should take the hobie drive out and turn it around if u want to reverse 🤣 Prop drive all the way for me 👍🏿

[@ninjason57]

This is a great practical explanation. Most kayak users looking for a pedal drive are likely fisherman and having your hands free is the most beneficial aspect. Ive been on the fence between these two designs.

[@fufusabra1]

😂

[@jasondahl7580]

3 years later and this is still the best video I have seen on the comparisons thank you, I made my choice. PDL All day. I actually read better reviews on the weedless capability of the PDL, maybe better technology now

[@williamfleming4673]

I’ve read that the PDL is more muscle-efficient and for long distances is much easier on the legs. Great video! Thanks.

[@lineshooter5w]

That was a great review hands down! You helped me in my decision to get a PDL drive based on your comparison and questions. Thank you so much! I will share this video. 👍

[@roaddog1m]

Well you didn't read it from anyone who races kayaks. The MR340 is a 340 mile race and pedal division has never even had an PDL finish. Hobies on the podium every year though

[@pascalj4331]

100% of the reason for looking at this is the speed comparison. Max thrust is not as important, but it actually lets hobie cheat, because one jerk on pedals is the entire max thrust level. The test that would be useful is doing a 200m run and back including turn. Or a race then switch kayaks.

[@roaddog1m]

Look at race results. MR340 has never had a PDL finish the race. Many 30 mile races out there also. Literally no one is running a PDL

[@RobertHumphries]

Terrific video. Gonna go with the Old Town Sportsman PDL120.

[@spiltmilt]

I love mine! Fish it in the salt and freshwater now for over a year. No issues

[@eddielikesfishing]

I have an Old Town Sportsman BigWater 132 PDL.

[@roywheat4490]

I've got an Old Town Predator PDL, and when I bought it, the Hobie Outback was the same price (although I think there's about $400 difference now). The big thing that made me want the OT was that I didn't have to fuss with the reverse system to go backward or hold myself. I think that now with the 360 drive, Hobie offers the best pedal kayak available period, no questions, but you have to ask yourself whether you want a Predator PDL and Topwater PDL and some change or the Hobie PA 360. Hobie just keeps going up in price. They are nice, though. If money were no object, there'd probably be a PA 360 hanging in my carport.

[@hunterandfisherninja8947]

Great video for pointing out key factors between the two drives! Definitely helpful content. Thanks for sharing!

[@QuickCookie]

what would you buy if you wanted to buy a single fishing kayak for ocean?

[@spiltmilt]

Old Town Salty 120 PDL

[@bnap1444]

Great video, great information. Really helpful!

[@mikegallagher521]

Thrust wins for me. Thank you for this comparison. Well done.

[@mikesigncarver3803]

I’ve had both and although the weeds are a pain with the PDL (I saw a blade attachment the other day that cuts the grass so it doesn’t clog up so bad in the PDL) the instant reverse means everything when fishing and wins hands down, I haven’t even used my anchor since I’ve bought the Topwater over a year ago. Ps: Talk about hands free, you drive hands free a lot lol.

[@ClownfishDepot]

Do you have any info on the blade attachment?

[@mikesigncarver3803]

@@ClownfishDepot look up innovative sportsman, they make one.

[@ClownfishDepot]

@@mikesigncarver3803 Thank you!

[@j_b_mvp]

This video deserves more likes, thank u

[@terryd2634]

Enjoyed your comparisons. I've watched several videos on these comparisons. Made my decision based on yours. Going with Old Town Pdl, Preditor kayak. Thanks for great review.

[@spiltmilt]

That's awesome! It's a very versatile boat. You will love it.

[@donnysath9084]

One can pull the PDL up and paddle in shallow, right? Is there room just to lay it between the legs? Are there other companies that produce PDL drive beside Old Town? A dealer in my area had one for 2000.00. Sure was tempting but no cash to be had. Last I stopped in it was gone. I checked Old Town website, none was available.

[@spiltmilt]

You can pull the PDL drive up and lock it in the up position. Only Old Town/Ocean Kayak produce the PDL drive specifically although there are many companies producing prop driven drives.

[@92mx3]

Hobie Kayaks are more expensive than Old Towns, saying Hobie wins the price point war seems silly to me. I can't use the pedal unit without buying the whole Kayak, at that point Iv'e spent a thousand or more over an Old Town?

[@Gonzo1968]

Exactly, Hobie are much more expensive kayaks compared to old town..

[@tylerramsey3607]

He was talking about the drive itself, if you needed to replace one. The hobie kayak itself is more expensive.

[@XploreAz]

That's not what he said.

[@lawrenceblue8207]

My opinion, I would probably own both PDL for larger lakes and the MirageDrive 180 for the smaller lake, depending on the types of lakes and the aquatic vegetation weeds and algae that develop.

[@de1726]

PDL drive is bulkier at a glance but the big gray protrusion isn't part of the drive, it's a huge built-in dry box, and YES, that thing is wicked handy for keeping the Big Three safe and dry (Keys, Wallet, Phone). You can fit that plus a medium can of sunscreen, a charging battery and an air horn all in the box. I like the Mirage drive's relative indifference toward obstructions (mostly grass which will generally not tangle up the fins the way it does with any propellor drive system). One thing of interest, the PDL drive has three latches, two on the back that close over a stabilizing bar, and one on the front that closes over the front lip of the built-in dry box. If you leave the front latch open then you get a bit of a Jackson Coosa breakaway effect (without the Jackson Coosa pricetag). Basically what happens is if you hit an underwater obstruction or ground the kayak the drive system will pop up because the front latch isn't secured vs taking the full brunt and potentially breaking the latch. The drive would be fine because it's super solid, but you might break a blade. I use it unlatched in the front for easy pop-up (both manually and on impact) but it does reduce the amount of pressure you can apply to the pedals without dislodging (popping up) the unit. If I'm in open clear water where I want to go fast, I bolt it down. Otherwise I'm usually fishing, not racing. Unlatched in front for convenience and longevity. Overall I like both drives, both have solid pros, few cons. For me I chose PDL 120 because of price and didn't feel like I made any compromises on form or function at all. ** Update: I should mention that you can pedal pretty darn hard with the front latch unsecured before the drive pops up, so for any situation outside of panic pedaling when trying to make it back to shore before the sun sets or trolling lures for marlin (kidding) then you can typically go unlatched in the front.

[@Elephant_Butte_Lake]

This is the most helpful video I've seen! Definitely made my decision for me. Thank you!!!

[@mehmetdtx]

I am glad your car is still dry after that drag test

[@brianb6991]

Thank you the review it was well thought out and informative. Currently I am deciding on which type to buy. I am in Central Washington. As you know we have both shallow weedy and deep lakes, deep and rocky shallow rivers. So for me the mirage drive seems to make the most sense but the warranty and the attached Kayaks (Outback and Predator) make the choice infinitely harder.

[@spiltmilt]

It can be challenging. Each drive has its advantages even without considering hull and cockpit design. I hope you find the right kayak!

[@teamcq9204]

Great video. I’m wanting a yak and have always wonder which drive is for me. Now I know. Thanks again

[@Sanctified_EDC_Gear]

One of the best reviews and videos about both of these Great Kayak Models drive systems 👍👍 Great Great Job 👍👍

[@AllTheHobbies]

Really well done and fair comparison. Part of the instant reverse that was a factor for me was ability to stop. See a fish, subsurface stump, rocks or weeds and the ability to stop very quickly is awesome. Also allows maintaining position easier and even turning is easier in tight spots. More than just going backwards. I wonder if the quieter drive will effect fishing. There are some super spooky fish and the drive sound is amplified through the hull into the water. Is a low hum more or less threatening to a rhythmic pulse? Not sure if you could test that and factor out the visual of the flippers vs spinning prop. I never considered the drive price by itself to be a factor people might care about. Most of us look at the price of the kayak that includes the drive. I could see that being a factor after the warranty runs out. The upfront savings of the Topwater could get you into a kayak and on the water for 5 years before that drive price would be a factor. Since the drive well on the Hobies seems universal being able to upgrade buying new drives is something people might care about. I just never thought of it.

[@spiltmilt]

A lot of Hobie anglers end up shelling out the $$$ to upgrade G2 to 180 drives. With the PDL drive I really feel like you are paying for the warranty.

[@AllTheHobbies]

@@spiltmilt It would be more fair to compare the 180 drive with turbo fins price then. If you factored in buying a drive then upgrading that two drives. The difference in the price of the 180 drive and the PDL includes a better warranty AND a console. I know a console is more a part of the boat design and layout but its included in the price of the drive.

[@spiltmilt]

Yes you are correct but for some anglers reverse may not matter.

[@AllTheHobbies]

@@spiltmilt They may not but then its not just the warranty that is the difference. If they want that feature or not it is part of the features included as is the console. Apples to apples( as close to features as possible between the two) would be the 180 with turbo fins to the PDL. Pretty much the same price. You get a better warranty console and floating with one. You get lightweight, weedless and shallow with the other. Oh and the self repair. Which is a great point.

[@watchluver]

For fishing the PDL hands down, for pleasure or just a joy ride fin drive all the way. the hands free instant reverse is what sets them apart for fishing IMO. nice review.

[@battlefieldoutdoors]

Great idea with the scale and magnet! We've done a couple of tug-o-war "tests" with Hobies and 3 other pedal drives (Propel by Native, Overdrive by Feelfree, and the PDL by Old Town) and not one of them came close to beating the Hobie Outback or Pro Angler 14 180 & 360. Of all the Hobie Mirage drives, the GT shown in this video, is the weakest (and noisiest). We have a mix of creek and lake angler in our store, which the Hobie does well in both, but a propeller drive is all but useless in the local creeks here in TN - unless you want to be pulling up your drive every 15-30 seconds to avoid a log, stump, or limestone boulder. Since 2020 the Kick-Up fins ensure that you never have to pull up your Mirage drive, and the ability to still pedal while in shallow water is often useful. The prop drives are great on the lake unless there's vegetation, though it's not hard to clear the prop. Many anglers like the ability to mount a fish finder in the center on a Hobie, whereas the prop drives eliminate that option forcing you to use the left or right track mounts. While we love that other brands have joined the pedal drive category, it's hard to ignore the engineering and well-thought-out features of a Hobie.

[@spiltmilt]

Yes I've seen the tug of war videos. Problem with those is that kayak mass plays a role and as you noted which Mirage drive and fin matters too. Every single speed trial I've seen puts the Old Town Salty PDL and Predator/Bigwater PDL as the fastest kayaks followed by the Hobie Revo 16 (no longer made) and the 13. I can see the advantage of the Mirage drive in the shallow water situations of TN but here in the Pacific NW those advantages are largely moot. Most anglers here are fishing open, clear, deep water absent of vegetation. I would say for surf launching the Mirage drive offers a great advantage but for maintaining positioning over a reef, control of trolling speeds, and boat positioning the PDL's hands free reverse-forward is better even than the Mirage 360 which I would still classify as mechanically unreliable. I love Hobie's recessed transducer mounting options but Old Town still has a mount dead center as well, just not a well protected one like the Hobie.

[@battlefieldoutdoors]

@@spiltmilt The fish finder mounting I'm referring to is for the screen, not the transducer. What's the top 2 most targeted fish species out that way?

[@spiltmilt]

I've never seen a Hobie with the fish finder mounted in the middle aside from in front of the Mirage drive which is kind of stupid since you can't reach it. That's what gear tracks are for after all. Most popular fish here are trout and salmon.

[@manuelsfishnet]

Wow how excellent your show is on the power of the drives. Thanks for sharing

[@stevehogan8829]

OldTown warranty and customer service is unbeatable. They have honored their warranty for me on their 120 autopilot even beyond the warranty period. They are a stand up company. Very few companies offer the customer service provided by Old Town. Superlative.

[@NickWeissMusic]

Nice video. The PDL drives do indeed seem cool, but I’m glad I went with a Hobie. In San Diego you run into eelgrass and kelp often, in fact you often seek it out as a fisherman, and first off, you can “shuffle pedal,” for lack of a better term, where you just pedal a tiny bit with the blades wide, and just pass over most vegetation. If you do get caught up, just pop the drive out, usually not even all the way, the weeds fall off, and you’re back on your way, not even a 10 second process. I am indeed envious of the handsfree reverse, but where I’m fishing, a prop seems like a bad idea.

[@theflyingkayak1988]

I couldn’t make up my mind so I bought a predator MK great comparison of the best drive systems out there

[@jked7463]

Very good discussion on drives. But all I keep seeing is discussion about fishing. There are a lot of kayakers that don't fish, but I haven't found much discussion on drives for recreational use. To me, weeds would be a big factor. Since I am not trying to haul in a catch, instantaneous backing up is not a deal for me, although I see the benefit for fishing.

[@spiltmilt]

This is a fishing channel

[@jked7463]

@@spiltmilt I understand. I am saying that I am not finding and recreational channels. There are a lot of recreational kayakers so I find it interesting that I am not finding any recreational channels.

[@battlefieldoutdoors]

Weeds are simply not an issue with the Mirage drive fins. If you want something fun and light, check out the iTrek 9 or 11. We sell more iTrek 11s than any other non-fishing Hobie vessel because they're light (47lbs), very fast, and turn super duper sharp.

[@rickgarcia8481]

Funny. I think of hobie as the apple of the kayak industry. It as been considered the best for years but now the peddle drive in old town is every bit as good although in a little different way, yet cheaper. Cheaper parts, etc. Like old town has become every bit the equal. Just like cell phones they give the consumer options and the consumer ends up winning either way

[@dennishunter2115]

Great test video... I just picked up 10.6 PDL Topwater up here in Canada ...might have to put it to work Ice -breakin'... while I'm trollin' for Muskie..... this winter... till spring 20'

[@ryantalbot2588]

How are you liking the 10.6 PDL? I’ve been looking at it just to save some transporting weight since I have some elbow issues. I was looking at the pdl 12 but I may go with 10.5

[@chuckerroo5977]

Good video. I was just at a dealer in ft. Lauderdale an the rep was bashing the old town vs. The hobie. The new hobie was 4k vs the old town almost half that. Both are great systems but think im sold on on the old town. Mainly because of the new cost is lower quiter and just saw the mirage drive can sink!!!

[@dkat1108]

Coming ashore in surf conditions with that 20lb Old town drive seams kinda awkward and sticking up so high if you roll the kayak I bet it would not do well.

[@spiltmilt]

I agree surf landing the mirage drive is a simpler affair

[@richpitty]

It’s not completely sealed it’s just a pinion gear with a shaft and it’s totally fixable after your warranty is up

[@steven33068]

Just an awesome video bud. So well done. Most importantly it was a real non BIAS review. Thank you Thank you.

[@jeffmoore9487]

You did a well thought out comparison. Thanks

[@Mikelodeon72]

Great video. Thanx. Actually I have to make the decision. What about ERGONOMICS? which drive will make you feel more natural and comfortable (physically speaking). I have some light issues with my low back so posture is important for me

[@spiltmilt]

Its tough to say. People have varying experiences with back, knee, and foot pain with each drive. My feet get sore on the Mirage drive but I don't notice any other differences.

[@sirfinthetube]

Thanks for posting this excellent comparison.

[@cgmllr100]

One very important test that could only be done with identical hulls would be drag. I am willing to bet that when you stop pedaling, the PDL drive has more drag -- leading to less glide -- due to the non-moving propeller and the thick transmission component going down to the propeller. Personally, I prefer the Hobie drive and it has nothing to do with any of the points you described or the one I just mentioned. I prefer it because the circular pedaling motion like a recumbent bike (of all the other kayak brand drives) causes my knees to pop and hurt. The pushing of the pedals of the Hobie does not. If that were not the case, and Ocean Kayak would put a pedal drive in the super sexy surf-able and paddle-able Trident, my Hobies (minus the inflatable) would be on Craigslist the next day.

[@spiltmilt]

I was curious about the "glide" ability as well. If you take your feet away the pedal drive continues to rotate as does the prop. It doesn't slow as much as you think it would but a difficult test to do but if I could find a way to temporarily mount the MD in the Old Town I might try it. I hear you on the knee issue. I know another anglers who can't use the MD due to knee pains but has no issue with the bicycle motion. It's good to have choices.

[@mikemurphy3025]

Really appreciate that well thought out analysis. The marketing nonsense from both kayaks don't help. I'm on the Gulf Coast in Texas, with a lot of shallow water. I think I'm leaning to the Hobie Kat w/ the turbo fins. I now need to figure if Hobie has room for a bait well, dry storage, etc. Nicely done , sir! Mike

[@spiltmilt]

Hobie makes a livewell specifically for the kayaks that uses the scupper holes to cycle water through. It's a pretty neat design. amzn.to/2T8UDB9

[@timmoore6055]

Hobie has a live well in their gear section, so if you are making your won, I imagine it would be fine.

[@rockytalkndawoods3057]

Crazy something smaller and less parts than a bicycle would weigh more than a bicycle. Seems like they could make them lighter for that price. 💛💚🌲💚💛

[@jamessawkins3301]

And I know the Hobie angler 360 is a nice but I cannot afford over $8,200 in the US it's $4,900 and in Canada it's 7199 dollars before taxes so I went with the old town Sportsman 106 it's affordable especially if you compared to the Hobie

[@user-kw2yz4xh4h]

Love this kayak very stable on large waves in the Rapids even though it's a fishing kayak it was awesome

[@evan2156]

Great in-depth review! Thanx so much. You've made up my mind for me.

[@relevation0]

I wish there was an aftermarket for hobie. Could use dif style drives.

[@JoePeanuts68]

Great video...I've actually used zip ties around the pegs to both provide additional support and to limit movement of the parts to reduce wear. BTW...was seriously thinking about buying a PDL as a second kayak...going to get another Hobie now.

[@michaelknapp3702]

In my opinion Old Town should develop a simple, inexpensive weed guard for its prop driven Kayaks.❤

[@julianalderson3938]

Bro i think fins just more efficient. But then cant back up quick. Think both good but mirage just esyier on the legs

[@wallacelarry1813]

easy, the propeller on that drive does not displace much water because of its blades, just change out props and you will get tons of power and reverse on the fly! easy, prop over fins anyday :)

[@PaulMotu]

Hey Collie Yak 😃. I too am in Western Australia and own a Predator PDL as well 😎. I am curious what was the failure you experienced please mate? As for this comparison, I fish 99% in the ocean and have heard (even seen on YT) many Hobie yakkers who in the middle of their ‘production’ broke their Mirage drives. That to me is an absolute NO NO when I am offshore. For a start, I tend to be alone as I just can’t rely on anyone to be where I want to fish when I want to go. I just came back from 8 weeks up north kayak fishing (as we travelled around Exmouth, Giralia, Warroora, Bruboodjoo & Monkey Mia and there was absolutely no one around who had a fishing kayak to go where I was going at all. So being alone out there are the cards I’m dealt with. The only other option would be to not go fishing! (FYI I do have all the legal safety requirements including a marine and UHF radio, PLB etc). But reliability is a major factor in me being able to go out there alone and totally enjoy my fishing and time on the ocean. I was fishing off Monkey Mia over XMAS 2021 and the wind was a sou’ wester (typical WA coastal wind 😂) that makes it an offshore wind at MM. There is no way I want to fish with an offshore wind and an unreliable pedal drive. Even out on the ocean (so anywhere else other than the eastern sides of Shark Bay or Exmouth Gulf) with an on-shore wind (primarily a Sou Wester) that would blow me back onto shore - the problems wouldn’t end there. There are tons of reefs along the whole of our coastline (together with crashing swells) and running into those because you’ve lost drive would be freaking scary to say the least. I don’t care how light, cheap or how easy to repair a drive is, if it can’t be relied upon - it’s a waste of money! Fishing offshore wondering if today is the day that my drive would fail is NOT being in control of my life in my opinion. I also like to stay out there when the wind picks up and to keep fishing. The PDL can be relied upon to push through those strong winds and get me back home. Putting a mirage drive under 3,4 or 5kms of 35 - 30km winds with a yak full of me and my gear I fear would stress the drive a lot and as I understand it (the chain drive is a weak link) so it would only be a matter of time until the undesirable happens. I just couldn’t trust it and would not want my life to depend on it. As for my PDL drive I have full faith in it. If I owned a Hobie with a Mirage Drive, being out in the open ocean in strong winds HOPING it won’t break - that just is NOT a strategy. Just my thoughts but I love my PDL too. Cheers mate 😃🎣

[@spiltmilt]

I've never had a PDL drive fail on me and I've put thousands of hours on them. My Hobies failed all the time. Broken masts, torn fins, and cracked spines.

[@PaulMotu]

Wow .. just doesn’t inspire confidence at all. Thanks for adding to my knowledge SMP 😃

[@user-vt7ob9by1g]

The PDL definitely has higher energy output, but the key question is, which is the most reliable and which last longer? I don't know, because I only have experience of the OT PDL, drives and I would say they function for at least the manufacturers 5 years, and probably longer, although I have to open mine and re-lube it, after only 2 years. One advantage of the Mirage drive, is that you can go into very shallow waters with the drive fully in place, something that can/will lead to you capsizing with a PDL drive, should the skeg rest on a hard bottom. Both have their advantages/disadvantages, but I would love to know, how well the HM drives last in constant seawater use.

[@k9taxi]

How do these two drive systems compare when it comes to fighting a strong head wind to get back to the boat launch after a long day of fishing?

[@spiltmilt]

That will depend entirely upon the kayak design not the propulsion design

[@kevintoepper2828]

I have a prop drive but Hobie has a lot of features but i have Butterfingers and seem to break everything

[@raychoi9495]

The PDL drive is a nightmare for shallow weedy area. Hobie can go through most weed.

[@spiltmilt]

That’s true

[@michaelfinley9988]

What about ease of peddling between the two? If you were to peddle a couple miles which drive would be easier to peddle? The Mirage is a back and forth motion vs a bicycle motion.

[@spiltmilt]

That will depend on the individual and their own unique muscle configuration. I can pedal both all day maintaining 2.5 mph with no major fatigue issues. The mirage drive does leave my feet a little more sore though

[@Mrkellywilliamson]

Dear Spilt Milk: I am flat out asking you which Old Town Kayak you believe would be best for my fishing use: I will be fishing open ocean off California (Redondo Beach - launching out of King Harbor). I know I want a big kayak and stable to handle the waves, etc. which means heavy is not bad in this case. I will be trolling and drift fishing for halibut. And this might sound paranoid or funny to you, but I want it robust enough to withstand a Great White shark bite in case that were to happen. (I know of two guys who were knocked out of their kayaks by a great white shark near Lompoc, CA.) -- so it has happened. Thank you.

[@spiltmilt]

The Bigwater 132 PDL would be my choice for offshore fishing and Great White shark defense!

[@theloosemoose8200]

My kayak takes both and I have both, I use the fin drive much more, only time I change it out is for dock fishing (redfish and snook pull hard and I need that reverse)

[@jamesrohr7268]

What is the length and width of the PDL drive? Just the part the inserts into the deck opening.

[@spiltmilt]

Each Old Town has different sized PDL drive as a result dimensions depend on the model

[@timmoore6055]

That is a very fair analysis of the two. Since I committed to a Pro 14, short of getting an electric motor for it, that is how I float. Warranty may be short but repairs are an alternative the Old Town does not provide. I bought mine used and am happy with the purchase with one exception: the store installed a boondox set of wheels and they put them clear in the back (their either did not know about the rail adjustment or didn't want to be bothered to do it correctly). I like the width and length, the weight means a trailer (I already had one) and I am not going anywhere fast on a lake anyway. Now if I can get the boondox properly installed...

[@chrisivey4461]

I’d like to see how the PDL system would work for backtrolling in Rivers with current. Ie: for bobberdogging or backing plugs/diver and bait

[@spiltmilt]

In deeper water systems it would be ideal. Going over flowing shallow sections might be a little dodgy.

[@HansZarkovPhD]

Im sold on pdl. Worth the price, 5 years on warranty, floats

[@MC96701]

Im torn between predator 132 big water and hobie pa 14. Stability and being able to paddle in the wind is most important. Which do u think is better?

[@spiltmilt]

The PA will the stability advantage but standing in a Bigwater is easy. As for paddling the Big Water is better by a longshot

[@MC96701]

I just keep hearing the big water seat is so high it feels tippy but i think with the price plus the instant reverse and u saying pedaling in the wind is better, i gotta go with the big water. Thx my bradah

[@timmoore9736]

I have a PA 14. Weight wise I was not about to lift it up to put a cart under it, so I got the Boondox wheels. If you do that, you will need spacers from them for the back of the rail as it needs to go behind the seat. Mine were installed at the back of the kayak, and that will be remedied this winter. Between the two, it depends on whether you want to use your arms/upper body to propel the kayak or your feet. In wind, I would vote for the PA 12 or 14. If you are fishing, trying to paddle and troll is a bit more difficult...

[@stevelowry3214]

Which drive is more fatiguing on the angler for a days worth of fishing might be important to some. The PDL looks like it might get to ya after awhile but, if properly geared, maybe I'm wrong.

[@spiltmilt]

A straight comparison for me is difficult because my Hobies are much more streamlined than the Topwater. However, I feel at low speeds (1-2 mph) the PDL is less fatiguing. However, at or above 3 mph the Hobie feels more efficient. I have an Old Town Predator PDL on the way soon so I'll be curious to see how it compares to my Hobie Revo.

[@stevelowry3214]

@@spiltmilt thanks for getting back to me so quickly and answering my question.

[@TheRoastontoast]

I recently tested the Topwater 106 PDL. I own a 2019 Hobie Outback and have the PA14 360 on order. Which one is best? To be honest, the PDL drive was better for me at gentle cruising and trolling speeds. When I tried to get more out of it, it was awful in comparison to the Hobie Mirage Drive. I think if you don’t need speed, the PDL is definitely worth a look. The instant reverse is sensational and those Topwaters track incredibly.

[@DoyaknowwhatImean]

Nothing else matters if you can’t go through the weeds