Skill Based Matchmaking Ruins Halo?

[@Installation07]

I really liked how the SBMM was in season 03, everything felt chill unless you were playing FFa or tactical slayer or ranked.

[@arickhook370]

Back then Active player count was so low that it drastically loosened up the SBMM just so players could find games quickly. Since season 4, 343 has kicked ass with content and A LOT of players cameback, building up the active numbers strictening the SBMM.

[@Hollowtide]

player count was so low they were prolly forced to make it more relaxed

[@aaronadams4657]

When sbmm first even hit me hard was the mw2019 beta. Every game hit like a freight train. Back in the day you could get a new fps game and slowly improve your k/d among the general population. The most egregious part of sbmm is the gutting effect it has to social features

[@ates423]

I think the hardest thing to do for me was reaching a 3.0 kd in mw 2019. Especially when you’re not running meta load outs and just running weapons you think are cool like the kar98k or the ak47. SKBMM makes games really hard to just log onto and have a chill game after a long day. It’s why I prefer coop shooters over multiplayer shooters. I get my chill semi engaging shooter gameplay from there

[@darkspark5854]

I’m so glad everyone is talking about this so much. 343 won’t be able to ignore it anymore.

[@Hollowtide]

maybe....

[@bigdaddynero]

Or else what? They will ignore it and they will never mention it.

[@beastmode1915]

Even in ranked the SBMM system ruins it’s very concept. The point of ranked is to play against people who are YOUR rank, not against sweaty people who will be varied ranks. There’s no point in playing ranked after your placement matches bc you won’t go up or down very much bc of SBMM being so strong

[@westsideisdabest7825]

Exactly, that's why the 1-50 system in Halo 3 worked.

[@Hollowtide]

you arent wrong, im not saying im arguing against that either, its just like if theres going to be sbmm in BOTH casual and ranked... just keep it in ranked lol

[@Waynside]

I’m at the point where even if sbmm was meant for good but now is broken, the idea of a developer being about to put their thumb on the scale deeply bothers me.

[@maxoftheinternet5206]

Hoberman's model in H2 H3 was optimal IMO. Strict SBMM should be for ranked only. Social should have wide variance. This is especially true if social is going to have pistol/AR starts and random weapon spawns. Ranked is literally LESS sweaty than the H3 Refueled playlist right now because Bandit starts allows you to play less strict than when you start with pistol and there is only like 1 BR on the whole map and it takes you 5 minutes of walking around to find it. I have 300 hours in Infinite and finally gave up and uninstalled until 343 sorts this out. It sucks all the fun out of the game.

[@Hollowtide]

he is a smart dude

[@NutsorSomethingBerserk]

I think SBMM goes much deeper than just devs wanting numbers and to keep a constant player retention and a manufactured win/loss. In the gaming landscape of today with battlepasses and microtransactions and things that are designed to get players to spend money, most of the battlepass progression systems are designed around challenges or progression is heavily accelerated through completing said challenges. SBMM not only feels like a way for players to be on a constant even playing field and to keep the w/l in check but they also feel like they’re actively trying to slow progression/battlepass progression down by putting you in lobbies you are destined to lose or have a hard time winning. Not only that, it beginnings to set in a gambler’s mentality when you are on a losing spree and you feel like you haven’t been rewarded for the effort. So you look to the shop for anything to give you that seratonin that the past few games have just kicked the shit out of you. Modern SBMM genuinely feels like a casino with how little I win/get matches I enjoy playing. And because of how little I’m succeeding in some of these matches, my progression is heavily slowed down. Only having a bump every now and again.

[@Missilechicken]

I've never had more fun in an online game than when I was playing Halo 3. I'm not saying this is the absolute solution, but 343 definitely needs to consider it.

[@Legitti]

SBMM killed the game for me this season, all I get is swetys against me and bots on my team, that I need to carry? That's not my defentition of fun but frustration match after match begin MVP and still losing.

[@Hollowtide]

pain

[@RednekGamurz]

SBMM is good in concept, and it's been done well in other games, but it's very bad in Infinite. Every casual game I play feels like ranked (especially in the H3 playlist). Having the range of skill levels be tight in ranked makes sense, but it needs to be a lot looser in casual. I also hate how team balancing works. Instead of going "lets try to make sure each individual player is of equal skill" they instead go "lets try to make sure each team is of equal skill", so you'll have matches where one team is fairly balanced, while the other team has like 1 or 2 players carrying a team filled with scrubs, and that can feel really annoying. I also don't like how the game seems to say "well you won the last few matches, so we're gonna give you an unwinnable match" or vice versa. There's just, so so many issues with Infinite's SBMM.

[@Hollowtide]

not wrong

[@leosimvuiseng2926]

sbmm not giving you 50 50 nowadays more straight to 80/20 or 20/80 less 50/50 lack of balancing issue

[@Hollowtide]

yea its like they want to keep you at 50/50 but only by giving you a spree of 80/20 then 20/80 lol

[@1x1boop28]

I was really impressed by the search and destroy gameonde in pavlov vr. You would play by opening a server browser, not matchmaking. The lobbies stayed after game ended, and prox voice chat made it even better.

[@Hollowtide]

man

[@larrybrander9116]

Ya there definitely needs to be looser matchmaking. I want to feel like I've made progress. On the flip side I wouldn't mind getting in a game with someone really good so I can set goals for myself. It's cool to see a master at work.

[@DoggedlyHandsome]

Infinites style of SBMM where it handicaps you with the most bottom of the barrel teammates is just so frustrating and counterintuitive it breeds toxicity

[@bigdaddynero]

As one of those players that was usually at the top of leaderboards, it became an issue for literally every game I played. Even in BTB. I get the need to balance lobbies, but the objectively factual way they were doing this was wrong. Matchmaking 3, or 11 for BTB, players who play like they're using their feet with a single designated carry is not resulting in a fun match for literally anyone. It got to the point where I'd be happy to lose a game because I could easily predict that the next game would be slightly easier to carry.

[@InstruMentalCase]

Strict SBMM has killed all enjoyment in Halo and modern online gaming as a whole. I’m never touching Infinite again, but they desperately need to overhaul it completely for all non-ranked modes at the very least.

[@zeliph]

What about custom games, that has pre/post game lobbies? Most people use their mics there.

[@Hollowtide]

:(

[@doraemon5990]

The only relatively chill mode left is BTB (Fiesta). Except CtF BTB, that one always ends in 0 - 0 or a thriller 1 - 0 in overtime.

[@Hollowtide]

a thriller lmao

[@scrubz7441]

I can only play a few matches at most before logging off. It is draining and annoying to play most of the time. I have a 1.52 k/d and the game loves to put garbage players on my team that end up going negative every match, while the other team is always consistently positive. They need to fix the sbmm asap

[@adan507]

The best take on SBMM Halo I heard! Fully agreed, what we need is a bubble for lower 10% of player (very needed if we want to attract new players) but nothing else in social. What it kills the social playlist for me is the lobby balancing, i always have to carry 3 bots or matches are 2v2 carrying for nothing, should be social casual play, but the experience is extremely sweaty bad and repetitive. The only solution? dont play social, just go to ranked and at least you know your teammates will have your competence, although i have also noticed that in Diamond 2 there is lobby balancing in many cases, consequence of 50% win rate, you cant climb IMO. After a while i also quit ranked, reason? i dont like being killed constantly close range by a guy aiming with the thumb and using a CPU 7GHz reaction time to not miss a bullet, i noticed you are now using MNK so i guess you can feel the pain. Overall, not a funny exp, dont know how long before i quit the game and move on, leasure time is short so i have to enjoy it. Ii just wish 343 activated ranked input based and solo/duo back, at least try enjoy that while it lasts

[@Hollowtide]

thank you!

[@Wayf4rer]

The system isn't good and it's one of the elements that ruins infinite. Being hard locked to a 50% win rate to throw bones to terrible players is legitimately one of the worst mechanics ever added into a halo game, and FPS games in general.

[@Hollowtide]

yeaaaaaaaaaa, also i love hockey

[@HaloDieHard]

In my opinion the best type of match making is a mix of SBMM, CBMM and MMR

[@Hollowtide]

yeaaaaaaaaa

[@sootythunder3111]

While I do think SBMM is very badly tuned. With the new maps in H3 refueled I went back into MCC and played them on that for a comparison to how they feel, and my god, there are issues beyond SBMM making the games feel sweaty In narrows refuels we began the match and both teams within 5 seconds were taking pot shots at each other from across the bridge with VERY accurate fire When I played the orginal on MCC I began realizing part of the reason that things feel sweaty is how the weapons operate, going back into MCC I realized the guns weapon range was SHIT compared to Infinite. No ads on anything except scoped weapons, this allowed you to have far more breathing room because just because you could see an enemy and they could see you didn’t mean either of you could actually hit the other if you started shooting. With the infinite magnum this is not the case putting pressure on players CONSTANTLY That breathing room alone changes so much of how a match feels like you wouldn’t believe

[@Hollowtide]

yea the guns in infinite are much more like lasers lol

[@agookchild]

The new FPS niche to fill is a FPS with minimal skill based matched making.

[@gamermagnum]

I got to onyx in halo infinite, I never wanted to do it again. But now every game is like those ranked matches. I don't even play 4v4 anymore I want to sit back and relax not have a puddle of sweat underneath me when I'm not even playing ranked....

[@Hollowtide]

i got onyx season 1 in solo q and i just dont know if ill ever do it seriously again lol

[@mattemattics5667]

SBMM shouldn’t exist in social playlists. Ranked yes, but let everyone play with everyone in non-ranked.

[@redbrock-dh5]

As a father who is also good at halo means its hard to game with my son. Also after 2 month break I actually get matched with lucid first match back. Then getting awful under ranked players as team mates then go up against full squad of killers happens alot and thats when I get off.

[@Hollowtide]

LMAO THE LUCID MATCH. and yea its hard to play with friends or family

[@xcrimsonlegendx]

Honestly since Firefight dropped I haven't played PvP aside from a few ultimate challenges that force you to play it. Its just not fun anymore, if you're not giving the game 110% at all times you're going to get utterly curb stomped. My 3 other friends that have been playing Halo with me literally since CE gave up after season one because it was just so damned sweaty that they couldn't enjoy it.

[@darkmatter-mc5iv]

I won't say it ruins games. But its done wrong a lot. Personally think it should be in ranked or you could enable or disable it. I almost wanna lose to just have matched that are more fun. I don't mind losing. I mind losing 3-5 matches in a row against plat players. Ain't no way I'm THAT good. So now I'm in PVE custom games until Firefight. Now that I really don't mind cause it just makes the tension of your team surviving much better.

[@BTizzle]

so my response to the criticism behind sbmm is always, "what is the alternative to the current system?" because I see the content creators talk about it but rarely give a solution beyond just turning it off which to me just says that high skilled people, especially those able to make money off of their skill, just want to be able to stomp whoever in casual modes or playlists. I genuinely ask what is the alternative because the way I see it is while the 50 50 chance to win isn't good for us, reducing the sbmm considerably will just result in more casual players running into mint blitz more often instead of people that are supposed to be a similar skill level, right? Thus, the complaining about how sweating every game is would still end up being a complaint for a majority of the community instead of 90 to 99% of the community.

[@RJberger39]

Just gunna repeat here what the ex-halo 2 / halo 3 dev said: Halo 3’s matchmaking was based off of 3 types of games. 1. Games that you stomp 2. Games that you get stomped 3. Evenly balanced games He noted that the evenly balanced games were actually the most stressful to play Halo 3 had an even distribution of these 3 types of games Modern sbmm is exactly the same with the exact same types of games, with one major difference: There is not an even distribution of these 3 types of games, more like 80% evenly balanced games and a mere 10% for games that you stomp and 10% for games that you get stomped. This causes the game to feel stressful or “sweaty” all the time which is not fun. An even mix of all 3 types of games is tried and true for creating the best experience in matchmaking

[@BTizzle]

@@RJberger39 so again, this just feels like a formula for casual less skilled players to get rolled by average, above average, and elite players in social modes. I don't know how such fixes the issue though i do believe that would be an improvement.

[@RJberger39]

@@BTizzle theres really no solution to give the lesser skilled players a better experience On paper, it sounds good to match them evenly with other lesser skilled players, but these evenly balanced games are also the most stressful to play and they will just end up not having fun if they get these types of games all the time. These lesser skilled players are mostly just people new to gaming or that don’t game all that much. The ones that are new to gaming usually end up getting better and don’t stay in the lesser skilled category for long, usually ending up in the middle of the bell cure like the rest of us, thus giving them access to those types of games where they can stomp the other team. (They’re no longer at the bottom of the food chain) The ones that don’t game all that much usually stay lesser skilled forever and will kinda always just get stomped or stuck with these stressful evenly balanced games unless they play more and naturally get better like the other lesser skilled players The halo 3 sbmm is the best system for the majority of all the players who play the game, all of whom are in the middle of the bell curve between lesser skilled and highly skilled Even if you’re one of these highly skilled players, you still get those same 3 evenly distributed types of matches where you stomp the other team, evenly balanced “sweaty” matches, and even those matches where you get stomped believe it or not. Even if you’re a highly skilled player, theres always someone better than you that will stomp you, unless you are literally number 1 in the world, like for example mint blitz, who will do good no matter who he plays against and theres just nothing fair that can be done about it. Hes just better than everybody

[@DomyWomySalami]

I feel what you’re talkin bout, I was playin yesterday and I played bout 5 or 6 matches and I was playin the halo 3 refueled playlist and literally only won 1 game, all matches were close but one match though was one flag on that one map I forget the name but my team was just runnin out in the open just dying and the other team were just such sweats, one guy went 23-4 like what bro, they still need to make a ranked halo 3 playlist to get the sweats out, can’t prevent it but majority of them will leave us casuals alone 😂

[@Hollowtide]

pain

[@KantoKait]

It is a tough conversation, but it is safe to say that social playlists should be completely revamped. The Hidden MMR just means it is a hidden ranked playlist. It is fine to make inferences based on the data, but things need to be cooled down. We ended up not playing much of the Halo 3 MtnDew playlist, because it was ranked without the perks. If one cannot earn their onyx badge playing in it, why does it have to always feel that tough.. not to mention whatever teammates they pair you with. Also, ranked needs an overhall to. This video outlined things pretty well.

[@Hollowtide]

yea the halo 3 playlist just makes me play btb or squad battle more lol

[@KantoKait]

@Hollowtide we have been trying to play MCC. Tried Halo 5 again, and would have had fun if it wasn't for the 70 FOV. we are playing titanfall2 now. I wish they would fix halo.

[@arickhook370]

Personally, Ranked playlists should be fairly tight SBMM, social/pubs lists should be fairly loose imo. I tend to play HALO when I'm after casual fun. Usually play squad battle/BTB, fiesta/Husky Raid. Just fun to fuck around in. Don't touch any other playlist if you don't wanna get sweaty lol.

[@Hollowtide]

i dont even think sbmm really belongs in ranked, i think climbing the ranked ladder to achieve... the rank should be the way to go. but what do i know

[@BrassTheBarbarian]

just do what halo 3 did, and everyone will be happy. the core game is really good, but sbmm makes me not want to play for more than 2 matches a week.

[@RatbaGAMES]

They hey day of Halo and Call of Duty has perfect matchmaking and lobby’s even for the casual player Idk why they reinvented the wheel

[@frankjason3089]

BTB matchmaking sucks too, my team 100 kills, the other team just 22. Man

[@Hollowtide]

ive had those games lol

[@novacane7366]

Dude I was playing the halo 3 playlists and it’s nothing g but sweats bro… that mode ain’t fun at all for me, neither is team slayer or ranked because it’s the same thing. Lose 4 matches get a hella easy super win then back to sweating it out just to lose.. carry the team, go positive but still lose. That’s all halo is and it’s getting boring to the point where I don’t even want to play it.

[@Hollowtide]

yea i keep leaving the playlist

[@numenthehuman]

Ive put halo down because the matches are predetermined. Unless of course i push hard as fuck, suprise the system, and get handed some noodle brains while a 4 stack of onyx players roll over us next match. Not fun. 😊 All in social playlists mind you. If it was ranked thats cool I solo queued, were probably gonna get wiped. But quick play and shit, like come the fuck onnn

[@lfinsterl]

We cant even play social as a pre-made because our skill is to high. It wont put us into a match.

[@Hollowtide]

pain

[@gorillakingz860]

Played a shit ton in season 3-4 the sbmm imo was the best it was balance I even consider going for hero rank because squad battle was amazing I took a small brake before season 5 and let me tell you I am not playing infinite until it's fix ! Am a really good halo player and I can't play any 4v4 game mode because I lose every game so it's btb or squad battle but even those 2 I lose 4 out of 5 match I have not teammates so until I get loosen I am not touching this game there is even sbmm in infection! I mean wtf ! Sbmm makes it that u can't play any other game because they think after a month brake your gonna be as good as before the brake and don't get me started about playing with my friend ! They don't have fun at all !

[@Hollowtide]

sbmm was more relaxed in those seasons due to player count

[@switchboy2320]

When I get a high KD the game expects now to be like mintz blitz. This is what pushing me off halo infnite

[@Hollowtide]

painnnnnnnnn

[@agentnukaz1715]

Just popping for support

[@majidsgames]

💖💖💖💖

[@Hollowtide]

hey friend

[@wellactually7323]

I don't like match making that is shamelessly fixed the philosophy of aiming to make you lose 50% of your games is terrible because when you improve you start to feel this rubberband sensation of the game intentionally stacking the odds against you for the sake of the algorithm I miss when lobbies felt organically mixed it makes no sense to Solo queue for example placed on a team where players have less than 50 games under their belt going against aggressive top tier onyx or diamond players who seem like they queued together shamelessly trying to make you lose all that does is make me not want to play I'd rather have close sweaty matches instead of babysitting new players it's crazy that game devs worship this 50 percent mmr so hard that they shamelessly make me lose in a way that feels soul crushing and brand new players shouldn't hit the skill ceiling that fast that's what it feels like to complain about "try hards" because we shouldn't be queued up in baby sitting matches against top tier players no one wants to be soul crushed.

[@Hollowtide]

i get that

[@kilmatix1990]

Yeaaaaaa

[@JohnMSD]

Personally, I don't get why so many people are against this. To me, I WANT skill based matchmaking because it makes every game relatively close to my skill level. Even though I have fun when I completely shit on the enemy team 50-14 I realize that's only fun for me and it's NOT fun at all for the other team that is getting obliterated, and then I'll end up on a team where I'm the one getting shit on and it's totally unfair. How is it that people WANT imbalanced games? That seems way less fun and hurtful to new players especially

[@thisbetayne]

People don’t want that, they want balance. Especially in social modes. How is not being able to find games with friends because of sbmm a good thing…? On top of that. How do you know if you’re improving in the game if you’re going 13/12 every game haha?

[@JohnMSD]

I play with my friend every week and most of the time we find a match within 10 seconds. My friend is a newer player (coming from sony) so he's not nearly as experienced as me but we win about 50% of our matches which I think is great. It's more difficult for him because he plays against a few higher lvl players that are matching my skill, but the SBMM also usually has 1 or 2 players on the enemy team that resemble his skill level. I think this is very fair and how it SHOULD work. @@thisbetayne

[@JohnMSD]

this friend I play with actually quit playing gears 5 with me because we couldn't win a single match how sweaty it was. We play Halo every week because the SBMM allows us to win at least half of our games and it's a more enjoyable experience@@thisbetayne

[@Hollowtide]

is not that they want unbalanced games, they want variety.

[@quest1856]

😮

[@aceofaces1506]

Sbmm ruins games. As far as I’m concerned if the game has a ranked mode sbmm in the normal “pubs” modes should either not exist or be lenient enough that you can enjoy the game without being good. If I wanted to play a mode where I HAD to sweat, I’d play ranked

[@ymif-m9r]

stop complaining and get good

[@Hollowtide]

but... how do you know if you are getting better if you match people the same skill always and never feel improvement lol

[@ymif-m9r]

all you do is win wtf@@Hollowtide