Navigating the Illustration Industry | Knowing Your Worth

[@Urukins]

Quentin’s input on the subject was truly invaluable

[@hollyexley]

Uru 😂 an expert in his field

[@momeraths]

I graduated from my illustration degree in 2018 and am just at the point now of having built my portfolio where I'm starting to build my career, and it truly feels like the worst time to be an illustrator. It's difficult not to feel depressed as this industry I've been working towards my whole life doesn't feel like a viable career option any more, it feels like it's being driven to being just a part time gig. I feel like part of the issue is that the market is too over saturated, so companies only have to ask enough people before they'll find one who'll work for free because that illustrator doesn't know what their work is worth because they're a hobbyist trying to make it professional. And so long as companies can take advantage like that, it will just continue to lower the value of what we do. I really don't see a way out of it at this point because there's just too many people underselling, who don't even understand different types of contracts and what they should be charging and that it's not simply 'per hour' type work. Which is why I'm so thankful for people like you Holly, drawing attention to the issue and using your platform to speak up and educate!

[@hollyexley]

asootsprite I’m so sorry you feel this way! I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but I also have some hope. It’s still possible to have the career you’ve dreamed of- there are still clients out there that will pay fairly, are respectful and appreciate the value of illustrations. My advice would be to focus on having the strongest portfolio you can muster, keep improving your craft, so you can feel confident in you worth. Seek out those clients that will pay properly (a hard task, but possible to do! ) and look at ways you can diversify your income. Having lots of different streams of revenue is really helpful eg for me I have KZbin revenue, sponsorships, a patreon, a shop (sometimes), private commissions. There’s also tutoring (online or in person), making online classes, other online content like blogging etc. Take note of what other illustrators are doing to make money and get inspired! 😊

[@josephinedellow6329]

Thankyou for speaking up here and for the helpful links. Feels very timely for me as I’ve just lost out on a job that was for a big household name because they wanted to own all the copyright. I did start to doubt whether I should stick to my principles as I would have been so proud to put them on my client list. I asked to see the contract hoping it may reassure me they were unlikely to exploit the artwork but heard nothing back. They’ll have moved on to find someone else and will have no problem finding someone because they’re such a big name. So frustrating. This video made me feel better for taking a stance and doing what’s right for my industry even though it meant I lost out 😊

[@palestblue]

I think it is time that people in industries like illustration (and animation, game design etc.) unionized in a big way. The world has changed so much and there are so many people in different jobs today that really need the protection and support that unionizing offers. I loved your take on this! ❤️

[@szpaqus]

I remember someone was getting really fussy about the price of unlocking a locked up car. "It only took you 5 minutes to do it, why are you charging so much for such a quick job?" "You're not paying for my time. You're paying for the years I spent on my craft to be able to do it in 5 minutes." I wish your industry the best. I'm a programmer and rates are very good but so are expectations of the employee (it seems like knowing well at least 4 technologies/programming laguages for a junior is a must :|). All industries have their problems, we just have to be vocal about it and not let it go (I mean it in a cheering up way, not patronizing way).

[@hollyexley]

szpaqus great analogy!

[@katboyce]

Illustration feeeeesss are all over the place! Thanks for standing up for the industry, I hate seeing on illustration FB groups people doing work for like $5 it’s my biggest pet peeve 😪

[@MaximumDull]

Some people find it weird to talk about money in any context, but not talking about it makes it so those exploiting inequality can benefit from our silence. It seems absurd to me that financial literacy is not part of our education system more generally when it is central to our experience of capitalism.

[@karolsartoasis4815]

Well Said and in art schools. They should know the about this side of the business they are training people to go in to and prepare them for knowing at least what to negotiate for to start with.

[@MaximumDull]

@@karolsartoasis4815 thanks & you're right that educators should establish industry norms including rates but also information like what this channel provides i.e. experience/contact with groups that advocate for better working conditions. I was talking about this subject more broadly before because in Canada there is a debt/housing crisis due to poor financial literacy & shame surrounding talking about money.

[@eireannClover]

As a freelance illustrator on the making I cannot thank you and support you enough for your channel. I saw so many channels just trying to grasp a few tips, and you're a living example by yourself ! You could totally publish a guide, if you ever feel like it one day. I completely agree with your cautiousness towards clients and your straightforward words all the same, you do manage perfectly this difficult balance. So, stay the way you are, Holly, because you're doing great !

[@hollyexley]

eireannClover aw thank you!

[@TinaHunter]

I really relate to this video, it applies to people who work for a company as a designer/illustrator too. I've worked in an office where the men were paid higher than women for doing the same jobs and another role where my boss laughed in my face when I asked for an increase in pay. It can be difficult to navigate the creative industry but if we started to stand up for ourselves a bit more it would benefit everyone.I still see so many artists wanting to work for the "exposure" and it's so frustrating!

[@joannaclaydesign8916]

I’m so shocked! How awful that your boss laughed in your face! The thing I struggle with is the attitude of ‘it’s a privilege to be working for us’ and ‘it’s such a good opportunity’. People deserve to be paid fairly whether it’s a ‘good opportunity’ (whatever that means) or a more ‘mundane’ one. X

[@ThePattiw]

Good encouragement Holly. People have to stand up for their rights. Many employers just take advantage of their workers and depend on the fear and non-communication between the individuals to carry on the unfair practices. I think that joining that Union you mentioned is a step in the right direction. Organised workers have always been able to better their work environments, have helped workers as a whole by standing up and fighting for all our rights. 👍🏽👍🏽

[@zywux]

I feel that someone (like you!) could start a new movement for the industry. I’m imagining a shared email signature (for example) that illustrators can adopt which directs clients to a clear resource (e.g. a dedicated KZbin video or website) that explains (eloquently, like you do!) the reasons behind your pricing. This movement could have a name and a website where members can post their experiences, quotes, recommendations and a rating system for publishers etc. Perhaps only available if you sign up as an illustrator (for free) so it does keep that privacy of certain client details. This might exist already (the union you mentioned) and maybe being free isn’t viable but that’s what comes to my mind. Great video.

[@hollyexley]

leanne reynolds Woa this is such a good idea Leanne! And very practical. I’m saving your comment for future I hope you don’t mind!

[@Fairychamber]

This was wonderful and honest talk Holly. I find myself in a pretty good place at the moment. Currently illustrating and fully focusing on my own project and enjoying it. There have been times when I have been severely underpaid as an illustrator and I am quite ashamed that I allowed people to use me that way, and that´s what it truly felt. Lesson learned and I've never repeated those same mistakes again and carefully select my clients now. I think it is vital that illustrators do talk about these topics and also the shared pressure there sometimes is to take those supposedly low budget clients because this is an uncertain industry. When I studied illustration in the uni (and I did my BA in a Welsh uni) we did have a bunch of courses about billing and getting paid for being an illustrator. I don´t know how that is in the rest of the Uk. I am from Finland and what I´v heard from my Finnish illustrator friends, those things are rarely in the curriculum, so it definitely depends what is the place you study and get your information.

[@bethanydrake38]

As of today I handed in my final units of my Illustration degree. I would love to say I am full of excitement for the next stage in trying to build my career but unfortunately I mainly feel worried. I am lucky in a sense that my course valued the business side of being a freelance illustrator and so we have had many lectures teaching us about negotiation, striving for higher rates, tax, creating business plans, and so on. In this sense I feel lucky. However I am constantly reminded that illustration is being treated as a hobby more so than a viable career. For instance, the amount of competitions I've seen going around recently is alarming and most of which offer ridiculously low rewards for all the time and skill involved in creating the work and of course the fact that 99% of those who enter don't receive any payment or recognition at all. As of yet I have not contacted any potential clients, but I do fear what I will be coming up against when I do. I hope for all illustrators sakes that everyone involved in this industry will start to recognise the value illustration holds and stand up against those who are set to devalue the whole industry.

[@karolsartoasis4815]

I love learning about the business side of art and illustration and in general but negotiation is very challenging. I am always a push over and just take what ever I am offered which has cost me a lot on my self esteem and respect from people in other professions. I am stopping today and asking for appropriate pay for whet ever job I do. This video is really great and I have watched your other video before but I will watch it again. I think you share a lot about pricing and how to navigate the freelance and illustration world. I agree there needs to be more transparency in the money for creative roles not just illustration, creatives are often short changed, it is often expected that we are happy to be poor as long as we are being creative. I think this movement is really great of people sharing and being transparent about payment. Industry's need us to make beautiful things and we should be paid a fair wage for that service. Some of those tweets you shared here were not even getting minimum wage, illustrators certainly dont need the training and years of work building skills to be paid like these people have tweeted. Well done for sharing that Holly.

[@LizLondonWWA]

Just discovered you, Holly. What a breath of fresh air. Thanks for speaking out. These are some of the issues I have run into my entire life as an artist. And it's part of the main reasons why I created Art For Your Cause. Which is a true art marketplace with a philanthropic twist. Every sale pays and artist and benefits a cause. We are a subsidiary of a public charity "Causability" which is coming soon. A revolutionary way for artists to create and benefit others. Call it "gofundme using art incentives". It's either brilliant or insane but I have spent the past almost 3 years and $300,000 from concept, development and launch. It's operational but we are still in beta...bare with us as we work through any kinks. I wouldn't do this if I didn't believe that artists can, do, will and are the change the world. Google says there are 2m artists in the US? Dunno about the UK? Seems like if we put our minds to it we can have the change we want. But we must create it. I created AFYC/Causability to help us od just that. Democratize the art market. Any illustrator that is interested in selling their original art on products or auctions and making up to 30% on every sale and while assisting causes... google: Art For Your Cause

[@garethgough4112]

Always appreciate these open videos you create on the industry Holly. I think this situation is similar in a lot of artistic industries. Personally I know that freelance animation is a shocker when it comes to fees for commissions. I've made less than national minimum wage for the past 3 months and i'm working 60 to 70 hours a week!! Maybe i'm just terrible at my job lol! But in all seriousness it is hard to see why anyone would get into an arts industry at the moment, I would be better off working the bar job I did 9 years ago at University at the moment. I know there will be something around the corner but juggling the uncertainty and working for shit pay plays on my mind. Would I be better off just dropping it all!? Obviously I won't...this is what I love to do but it is a niggling thought that follows me around. Negotiating pay is stressful as you say, I imagine more so for a lot of women and for people from minority backgrounds, my personal experience is always one of anxiety. The time it consumes can be infuriating especially when it is factored in to what you finally get paid. I'll even hold my hands up that there have been times when I have lied in negotiating prices by making out that I am in more demand than I am, which does work sometimes! But I shouldn't have to do that, or feel that I have to manipulate a conversation to get what I deserve for my skills and time. I wan't to enter a job respecting the person i'm working with and feel on an even playing field when it comes to what we are working towards. But more and more i'm approached by clients who wan't to manipulate me for their companies gain. I must stress that this is not always the case! But you can tell pretty much tell straight away from an email or a phone conversation if someone is out to play a game with you and not respect you and your skill set. All in all I would say to anyone looking to get into an arts career to A - watch Hollies videos on the industry. B - Join a group such as the AOI. C - Really stand up for yourself, your time and skills have huge worth! D - Look after your health (in ten years time your wrist and arm might be giving up the ghost!) Remain positive as there is great worth in doing something that you love! But that love has to be balanced with self empowerment and a strong awareness of the industry. Connect with other illustrators and artists and talk as openly as you feel comfortable to do so.

[@hollyexley]

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences Gareth, so valuable. Didn't know it was the same in animation, thats so disappointing. You said it perfectly: " love has to be balanced with self empowerment and a strong awareness of the industry "

[@andrada-mariapricop8986]

I appreciate you made this video, and all the other videos actually. They helped me so much in realizing how things work in the industry since I am a newbie. Not long ago an agency has contacted me regarding a possible collaboration and I spent so much time on figuring out what I should quote. In the end they picked someone else and although I appreciate the knowledge I gained through the emails and my research, it was also a bit frustrating that I had to spend so much time on figuring out what to charge because you just can't find info on that easily. You have to dig so deep to find guidance. In the end, it was your videos that helped me the most. Thanks for sharing what you know with us!

[@hollyexley]

Andrada-Maria Pricop I’m so glad to hear that Andrada!

[@jasoncasino9565]

That’s some high quality Quentin ASMR there

[@rachelscottart6908]

So much useful information again, your videos are so informative and honest. Thank you so much!

[@Aquarellina]

What we need as illustrators is a collective. What kind of artwork, style, in what medium and what size and complexity deserves what price, or if it's not fixed price, what is the appropriate hourly rate. If there's an illustration made from a photograph it should cost less than the one that needs 10 sketches to develop. Perspective accurate drawings, again from imagination should be more pricey, anatomy and things that take more time to get very skilled at - it's a job like any other. For stylized illustrations it's harder to determine the price but they have a value based on how original and well rounded up they are. Either way there needs to be at least the minimal price determined for every kind of illustration. Artists are afraid to put out price guides because they don't want there to be a price on art to begin with. We are first and foremost illustrators, it's different with fine art and original physical pieces of art that go into a galleries. Our jobs are to help other companies in their business so we need to get together and agree on some things as a collective - it's gonna be hard but it's better than being constantly underpaid and ruining our profession all together.

[@createparadise]

Ooo you are so right about not wanting to be difficult! 👌

[@tashedwards99]

Thank you for talking about this! Never gets covered in illustration degrees and leaves so many of us in the dark.

[@SwanCreates]

Because no one talks about what are fair prices for illustrators, when publishing companies approach illustrators, they think that the price their offering is a fair price and accept it, since they believe that that is what everyone is offering. I wasn't even aware that this was a problem until I saw your videos. It made me wise up, thank you

[@hollyexley]

Swan Creates 💙💙💙

[@PolinaKalina]

Wise words/advice as always, Holly! Skillshare should totally offer you hosting a proper class on this matter! 🙂 I recently had to stand up for myself and although it was very difficult, I'm glad I got it out there. I was worried about future relationship with the client (I'm their customer too hehe) but it looks like there was no reason for that! 🙂 Granted, illustration is my side hustle (feels like side-hassle at times >.< especially after making it an official/declared side-job) but thanks to you I've learnt how important it is to play fair no matter if you're a beginner or a pro! Thank you so much!

[@BUGHUNTER6]

Great video! Of course it's important to weigh the pros and cons with each client. But we should have a solid minimum pay. After all, the work we're providing is about as unique as it gets. Of course we try to streamline our work and the client experience, but it's about as far from assembly line work as it gets. That's my two cents. I'm also introverted and shy, but as you pointed out, that's exactly why we have to stand up for ourselves. Because most people will try to take advantage (and tbf we can't always blame them)

[@hollyexley]

Jesse O. Yes! Good point. The service we are providing is completely unique to us- there’s so much value in this!

[@Speaking4lines]

I've lost jobs for giving quotes that were too high for the client and always feel that is a blessing in a way just because I don't want to work for someone who doesn't value my time and effort. That being said that is a privilege to be able to think that way and that may change later. I've noticed people get VERY uncomfortable discussing their rate and I hope that changes.

[@paigel8777]

Your experiences are so impressive. I remember in my first year teaching when I first got all fired up about someone trying to come in and tell me i was doing something wrong. In a rousing speech to my colleagues: “WE know our kids and it’s APRIL. If they wanted to help they should have spoken up earlier.” 😂 it felt amazing

[@hollyexley]

Paige L ah well done Paige! 🤜🏻

[@fathimasstudio]

Thanks so much for your videos, Holly, always love them! And also thanks for speaking out on important issues like this and being that voice. Pricing is always tricky and not having even a ballpark for reference is detrimental to the industry - I've been in the design industry for a long time and do illustration as well and often find myself in that situation of having no idea where my pricing stands against industry standards (for illustration). This is just a thought I had while watching, forgive me if it's presumptuous or out of line, but I couldn't help thinking it would be amazing if people like you who have a wide range of real life pricing experience could be the ones to put together that kind of resource - a basic ballpark pricing guide (maybe based on the experience of several experienced illustrators like yourself so it doesn't put you alone in an awkward situation) for different types of illustration jobs, what needs to be taken into consideration, etc. As you mentioned there are probably books and things that do this but as you've also said, that isn't really enough and doesn't make it super accessible. Just a thought :) Thanks again!

[@hollyexley]

Fathima K this is a great idea! Thank you - saving your comment for future I hope you don’t mind! There’s quite a good data base on lite box that has some of what you talk about

[@fathimasstudio]

@@hollyexley Yay, so glad you think it's a good idea 😊 Definitely don't mind 💛

[@leighannenight]

Thank you for all the information and helping to empower fellow creators!! You're just awesome!!

[@hollyexley]

LeighAnneNight Art aw gee thanks Leigh Anne

[@ODarlio]

Thank you so much for this vid Holly! Your words are invaluable :)

[@loobyloo1550]

Thanks for this video 😊 I had a big de-clutter of everything to make things simple so I only use one social media now, so I wasn't aware of the issue with this company until watching this. I did a Graphic Design degree and there was no mention of how to make it into a business at all. Thanks for sharing all the new info 😊

[@cecile3414]

Thanks for talking about this again. And I don't think fees have anything to do with privacy, on the contrary they should be completely transparent.

[@artsquirrel]

Very relatable, although I don't have much freelance Illustration experience I used to get the same thing when I did freelance website design and completely burned out because of it and gave it up. I've been very guarded against art based freelance work in general because of past experiences with people wanting me to do unpaid work, and I know it can lead to hating what you love if you work with the wrong people. I was dissapointed learning about the Nobrow thing- never worked with them, but feel bad for artists who got burned, and left a bad taste in my mouth about the AOI becase Nobrow was on the board of directors. AOI doesn't give pricing advice anymore.

[@rozennansquer3948]

Super interesting thank you Holly ! :)

[@melissamejia1201]

I love you Holly! thanks

[@Mindabble]

A very important subject. Thank you for making this video. Where I live, the wages are pretty high compared to other parts of europe and I've actually had a client (former boss) tell me as a "friendly advice" that he could get illustration work at less than half the price of what I'm charging in Spain. And my rates are in the lower end of fair (I've done my research) as I had JUST graduated. Was able to keep a smile but my blod was boiling. Now, I'm in the VERY priveleged situation that my partner can keep the roof over our heads and I have savings to fall back on, so from the start I've been very adamant that these are my rates and while I'm up to negotiate, I have very strict limits. But what about the people who are not in my position!? It's very upsetting to see the industry eat itself up from the inside because the fat cats won't pay up for skilled work! I was about to reccomend litebox and then, you mentioned them 💚 Also, that lipstick is gorgeous and I agree it would be a shame to not show it off ^^

[@hollyexley]

Mindabble that’s shocking! No one should be telling you to lower your already fair prices! How rude. It is alarming isn’t it, well done for holding your ground. 💙

[@Mindabble]

@@hollyexley Thank you. While it is true that the rates are lower in other parts of the world, I'll have to remind myself and others that illustration and design work is a super personal skill. Yes, you can get the product cheaper if you just look at numbers, but the style is gonna vary. You go to a specific person for their specific feel and that's that. Stay awesome 💚

[@Aquarellina]

Perhaps charging the phone calls like an hour long brain storm session, also where you discuss the project details and possible solutions, should be paid to an illustrator. Doesn't matter how much but just get them in the mindset that your time and effort are valued and should be paid for. Again we should all do this, it should be a normal thing. We waste so much time emailing clients and forming possible solutions, offers, for nothing.

[@FelineFurKin]

You make some good points and I agree that unionising is one of the best ways. Naming those who take advantage seems unkind, but it seems the only way anyone gets held to account if they’ve set themselves up to gain from exploiting others. I’d heard of Nobrow and they were held in the highest esteem in the indie comics community, it’s very disappointing to find that they couldn’t also be trusted to behave well. The community sharing rates is very useful, there’s little way of knowing otherwise. I also love how you go from talking so politely and every so often drop in something like ‘probably cos the thumbnail looks so shit’, that made me laugh even more than Quentin snuffling.

[@teohyc]

It’s Carryl Naming the bully helps other illustrators.

[@hollyexley]

It’s Carryl agree! Thank you Carryl for your input

[@hbmoller]

Holly for illustrator's union rep!

[@BiancaHaeckDesigns]

Quentin makes every video better! XD But on a serious note, HOW has Nobrow gotten away with it for so long?? Also, the main reason the information on fees for illustrators is so well hidden, is because companies don't WANT a uniform pricing standard, they want to be able to misuse artists for dirt cheap rates. It's a sad truth. Our work makes or breaks a book, but artists are the least valued in the process...

[@carollangman1163]

Interesting video even though it doesn't apply to me but have to say i flippin love the colour of your lipstick

[@hollyexley]

Carol Langman thank you Carol! I’ve always loved how bright lipstick looks on others so I’m glad I finally joined in!

[@vanessad2873]

Oh LORDY the surprise WET NOISES right after the ad break UGHHH

[@ezgi6392]

1:45 I agree with you Quentin

[@MrsQuam]

Have you thought about trying to get an agent to take over the unpleasant parts of the job?

[@hollyexley]

Ashley Quam I had one for a short amount of time- but it wasn’t a good experience! I like being independent, but the option is one I am considering yes

[@deoko1]

agh this happens to me a lot when I freelance is so hard to get a reference on what to charge. I am not a full time freelancer, I do occasional jobs for when we need a bit more money (getting clients I hard). And even at my regular job talking money I hard, is as if I felt I might offend the company or client by answering the question of "how much?" :/ and then because I don't exactly always know my worth, or what is fair to charge I feel I might be damaging the industry but im not even sure about that either. @_@

[@misia.illustrator4840]

This is extremely upsetting to hear, about Nobrow I mean. All of their books are beyond beautiful, the paper quality, the binding, the sizing, and of course, the astounding illustrative work. Their children’s publishing house (Flying Eye Books) is an absolute favourite of mine in terms of books for my children, so I’m at a loss for words that a publishing house that creates such beautiful books has such ugly business practices. I thought they were a publishing house which took take their of their illustrators and authors as they had such an eye for quality, but I suppose you should always dig deeper into business as they will only showcase their best side publicly. Thank you for the video, it gave me a lot to think about, as I was hoping to one day publish a book with Flying Eye.

[@evamassey2068]

I'm so disappointed as well. When I first heard about this I thought, "well, those illustrators signed the contract, they knew what they were getting into" but if i'm honest with myself, as a new illustrator, it would be hard to turn down. Especially because publishers who seek that type of work are so rare.

[@hollyexley]

Eva Massey yes, a tempting offer for any new illustrator

[@LeahWriter]

Very pretty lipstick😊

[@hollyexley]

sunflower sadie thank you!

[@jennyveile]

Is there any update on your cookbook?

[@hollyexley]

Jenny Veile it’s coming!

[@nomi3456]

Why did I discover you so late! 😭

[@cetriyasArtnComicsChannel]

old video, but again if you can make more money doing a simple job, better to do that part time than to take a low pay headache.