Holy Post Podcast Episode 519: How Reaganism Won the Church & Skye’s New Book

[@hapennysparrow]

I love this discussion. So helpful. I have attended a multitude of "churches," throughout my 50+years of walking with my savior. The definition of church as a loving community around the gospel is exactly the conclusion I have drawn. Currently, I have been unable to locate a gathering of believers that is not hyper politicized, and believing in myths and nonsense. But I still see myself as a part of Christ's body, and connected to the worldwide church of Jesus. Thank you for thus important discussion. Bless you.

[@complexmindsimpleman6642]

"States Rights" is one of the most deadly combination of terms to Black life. Our lives are always just bargaining chips to our allies in the final equation.

[@veggiet2009]

It is something that I will say I am still in favour of, however it was pointed out to me within the last few years just how associated with racism the concept is. It has lead me to question just how important the concept is to me. I think it is alright if human rights and liberties were codified in a way that basically states have to abide by in order to remain within the union, or even to retain their rights in the other areas. A states rights to govern should not infringe on a person's right to free speech, no matter their skin color or gender

[@Justanotherconsumer]

The irony is that the CSA split in part because of other states refusing to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act. They weren’t for the rights of the states, just for preserving their way of life (that was heavily dependent on slavery).

[@jeffstewart3860]

I have been involved with fundamental churches since 1975. I at times appreciate, need, and follow others as helping me in my walk with Christ. Over the last few years my family and I have become more and more disappointed and saddened by what we now realize has been a huge mistake. The often not said but strongly implied is" You are not a real Christian if you think that", or "A real Christian wouldn't believe that or vote for that person " . I am a civil engineer involved in infastructure so climate change is real and a problem. Friends tell me real Christians don't believe that. I could go on. Point is that the Christian culture can teach us not to think, so thanks for your timely discussions to help us get out of this.

[@bkucenski]

It is so refreshing to hear an absolutely accurate take on Communion. You cannot commune with the body of Christ if you are exclusionary. There are no racists in heaven.

[@apolloniapythia9141]

I'm born 1966 in Vienna about 30 km from a border with a few dozend divisions of the Red Army and their more reluctant alliies. - not even 50 years before the world my familiy lived for at least a milenium had stopped sudently; - 21 years before the most devasting war ended finaly also the culture of this world - at least 6 m Jews had been slaughtered, most of the survivers left for the USA or Israel, more than 14 m Germans lost their home and livelihood and million more who had been anti-communists, many of them ended in Sibira; - 11 years before Austria got a independent state again (after German occupation 1938) and started the bif denial of Austrians part in the war as "Germans"; - 10 years before the Soviets finally destroyed any freedom in Hungary, about 200.000 Hungarians fleed to Austria, 70.000 stayed; - 2 years after my birth the same played in the CSSR but this time Soviet tanks also crossed more times the border in their fight; I was 10 years old when I came in Gymnasium (you may call it junior high but it was the elite end of the possebilities) and the fight Ford against Carter was at our mindes - 5 years before the mighty America had been humilated in Vietnam and the new generation who fought the status quo of their Nazi-parents also dispised the mass morder in Vietnam (Bombs, napalm, "agent orange"). Most of us thought the vote of Carter to president a good thing. A year ago in Helsinki the Final Act had been signed to create the CSCE process in Europe and life and peace seems to improve and the inveronmental movement got move: and 1978 the Camp David Accord added to this ... ... and then came 1979 - the Soviets started a war in Afghanistan, the revolution in Persia, the occupation oif the US ambassy and the dilitant try to free them a year later to save the election; at that time their had been a often used phrase in the more conservative circles in Europe: "Dear god, give us any support you want, but please not the USA!" And then came Reagan - most of Europes elites laught that only the USA would vote a third class actor for president and the left feared him because of his hateful acting in the McCarthy era; him followed Thatcher in the UK and cancellor Khol in Germany and most liberal and socialist goverments would be replaced by conservatives. Literature, art, cinema and TV but also news in TV and papers had been full of East-West-conflict, spy wars, proxy wars and hot wars, we lived with the daily knowlagde of permanent destruction discussing if the idiot starting it would be from the USA or UdSSR. The moves became darkr and military dominated - Dirty Harry showed us that a big gun solves all internal (criminal) problems and a expulsed Vietnam hero became the new savior of America and singlehanded saved the lost country from the bad left and then the world and destroid the mighty Red Army solo. In reality Reagan attacked freedom world wide if businesses (especially American) had been in danger and suppurtaed any bloodthursty dictator as long as he promised to fight poor people (sorry I mean bad communists). In America he destroyed the New Deal and unions and "god" became every third word a US politican had to say to be voted for. Weapons for Sadam Hussain and Osama bin Laden would haunt ´the next generation come to lead. And in Middle America he created the chaos which led thousand of refugies to the US-border: as long as GOP-donors needed these people to give them cheap unprotected worker nothing happened, after cheap labor left the USA other than agriculture) it became a political theme for the right. Enforcing civil rights in the south had been slowed down and ended with all states in GOP hands and the white "God was marching on ...", hate for gays and AIDS as gods reaction to them became depressing and the social gap closing in the 70s got bigger and bigger (I was haunted as a kid from the Anderson fairy tale "The little Match Girl" but I thought it a thing of the past - and now a teenager I saw the first time two men standing at a public trash bin looking for something to eat, one greedily licking the wrapping paper of an ice cone ... and our religious leaders lived in golden palaces and preached in golden churches but didn`t help the poor and the new Polish pope would send the church back in the middle ages. Other then the film ideal of Anthony Quinn in 1968. And hope came from someone nobody would have guessed, the new communisted leader of the USSR it gave us all the hope that with 1990 a new peaceful world would come, but the USSR gor destroyed and in the USA the last half sane GOP president brought the revival of the US military - now war became a victorious video show and generals again potential presidants. And the democratic alternative, a Vietnam fleeing hippy sold the working class to the Wall Street, people of coulor to the sub urbs and the LGBT-community to the religious zeelots - and Europe followed fast! Then came the insane Bush for president with his deputy incarnating evil ... BUT saved by Osama bin Laden - without 9/11 we would remember a stolen election, a vice president with his circle triing to recall the Reagan era and a presidant just surviving the henious attack of a breakfast croissant (the French opposed him all the time then - but the US payback are "Freedom Fries"! He would loose 2004 in an landslide - even in reality it needed one of the most hateful campaigns to discredite a man who fought for his country by a man who hid behind his family money in the Texas National Guard! But hate let the GOP ran from victory to victory - discrediting LGBT-members of society where ever possible and in as much ways as possible was the new GOP motto - and the religious right loved and lauded them for it. Kids sometime kidnapped by order of their parents and tortured in we-make-you-straight-camps, kids kicked out of religious homes or running for their live, living on the streets often only surviving by prostitution till AIDS got them ...girls raped by family members or friends to drive out their unnatural behaviour ... 8 wounderful Bush-years ... and then came the Messiah in form of a black senator who had to sold his soul to Wall street to get the support of donkeys led by the Clinton-Mob; and desolution led to Trump and that to lies, corruption and chaos and that finaly to today and the white old man in the white old house ... AMEN.

[@cindychurch335]

Thanks for your post. Always good to hear different perspectives. God help us all.

[@Qwack79]

33:20 Watching Kaitlyn crack up then trying to keep it together was hilarious

[@lindadodson1586]

I listened on my drive home from work, so I'm not sure of the exact words Kaitlyn said. It was something to the effect of how something that sounds like scripture, sounds familiar, said with authority, but isn't a direct quote with book/chapter/verse. This has been a real concern of mine for years. I have seen many Christians fall for what sounds scriptural but isn't. If they say it in my presence, I ask for book/chapter/verse. Most of the time I get something like 'oh, it's in there somewhere.'

[@mmladyg]

Phil and Team, I grew up in the Goldwater era. I was an elementary child in the appliance store with my parents with a dozen Magnavox TVs playing as they announced that Johnson was winning the election. As a sensitive youngster, a black cloud settled deep in my soul knowing that something "awful" was happening, and my entire life have carried a sense of not being safe in the world with "them" in charge as a result. A life with God has reshaped that orientation, yet the unsettledness threatens with every election cycle. It is an insidious disservice for Christian families to perpetuate this type of fear whether within their families or as a living witness before the world, for it is the perfect love of God that drives out fear. Your opening lecture gave me an opportunity to hear, as an adult, what I was experiencing as a child. In this transformation of broadening ones Christian thought and experience beyond the confines of fundamentalism, this episode is a gift that "soothes my doubt--which comes--and calms my fears" (Andrae Crouch). I'm grateful--SO grateful.

[@23Hiya]

Thanks for the show guys. You are very nearly the best. Really appreciate you as always. Three things come to mind: 1. I really appreciate Skye’s observations about freedom. It’s only possible to be free toward something we take to be the Good. A perfect libertarian freedom would be indistinguishable from chance, or chaos. I would take issue with the sentiment that the founders weren’t torn about the inequities of the country’s hierarchies. Jefferson’s “trembling” for his country in Notes on the State of Virginia indicates that many were not clear in conscience or unaware of the contradictions. 2. The other thing I’d like to propose is that the business interest isn’t something that has recently been an aligning force, but that it has for more than 100 years been an aligning force and we are just witnessing a more unapologetic alignment. A couple quotes from Eugene McCarraher on 19th century Protestant thought: The scottish Presbyterian Thomas Chalmers, “...maintained that economic laws were beautiful as well as utilitarian.” He, “...marveled at the ‘beauteous order’ of the market, wrought by the ‘presiding Divinity’ who ‘compasses all his goings. God’s grace could enrapture and fructify the apparently sordid dealings of business, ‘impregnating our minutest transactions with the spirit of the gospel.’” The somewhat infamous Thomas Malthus and others held that, “...privation was excellent news: that lashes of adversity and competition would compel us into moral and material improvement.” Malthus says, “‘The finger of God is, indeed, visible in every blade of grass that we see,’ and among the ‘animating touches of the Divinity’ is the salutary character of evil. ‘Evil exists in the world not to create despair but activity.’” The idle were justly to die. See The Enchantments of Mammon for a LENGTHY discussion. 3. Kaitlyn is dead on IMO when it comes to turning every issue into an excuse to “discover God’s timeless will on this or that topic.” It’s not just that it abstracts from the problem, but I think there’s good reason to think that it impedes us from putting boots on the ground. Thi Nguyen has written about the problems of moral outrage porn and I think it bears directly on this topic. Whether it’s grandstanding about how you’re on God’s side of the issue or reveling in being aligned with the grandstander there’s an instrumentalizing of our moral categories going on that is dangerous. For more, philpapers.org/go.pl?id=NGUMOP&aid=NGUMOPv1

[@bkucenski]

Anyone a Conservative calls a RINO is always an actual Republican, and the Conservative without a doubt would cry at the thought of Confederate monuments being removed.

[@andrewzook8648]

The 'conservatives' yelling RINO are not conservatives... imo they are all revolutionaries, mostly or fully authoritarian, mostly or fully lawless (ie they don't want to play by rules)... they are far closer to Lenin than Burke....

[@jdarrell9477]

Very good discussion. We need more of this type of analysis.

[@greglogan7706]

And historical data

[@marybethfarrell652]

Bravo, Phil! Your researched, thoughtful and spot on history “lecture” is so timely and shines light on the “nuances” and complexities of this movement. It was more than okay to have Skye and Kaitlyn listen along with us. And as a 60+ person, the personal experience we had with this is valuable, imho

[@djn5035]

Ezra Klein does a great look at politics in the 60s in his book "why we are polorized"... paints a nice picture of three parties. Conservatives, Dixiecrats, and Democrats... and think would say Trump and Republican party is now have Dixiecrats with the bullhorn and anyone that was conservative would be considered a Rhino's.

[@veggiet2009]

I mean... If what he meant by "Medicare will end freedom" that in a few years medical bills will be sky high and the insurance systems will stink....

[@SeasonedRookie]

You think that’s solely due to Medicare, and not inhumane greed from private pharmaceutical executives and politicians?

[@abaneyone]

I always look forward to Holy Post episodes! Listening from the Philippines. 🌴😎

[@2serve4Christ]

1:25:01 Thanks Skye!!! I think this quote is helpful to understand imperfect institution of 'church' “Don't expect or demand from groups what they usually cannot give. Doing so will make you needlessly angry and reactionary. They must and will be concerned with identity, boundaries, self-maintenance, self-perpetuation, and self-congratulation. This is their nature and purpose. The most you can hope for is a few enlightened leaders and policies now and then from among those 'two or three gathered in [God's] name'." ― Richard Rohr, AARP Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life

[@jcferg3370]

Great background Phil. Skye, I enjoyed your prior book so much, I made sure to get your latest one as soon as it became available. I look forward to any additional books you do in the same theme. Skye - You are 100% right. Modern Republican conservatism only benefits big business and no one else at the end of the day.

[@hapennysparrow]

It has always been about money and power. The Religious Right glomed onto Regan because they saw in him someone that would sell his soul for power. And he may have used them to gain that objective. American Christianity has never gotten it right. We as believers, are called to be salt and light, working for justice, truth, compassion, honesty, respect for others. We were never commanded to grab power and impose it on a whole society. Call me frustrated. I am so sick of the politicalzation of the Gospel or of using it to gaining advantage over others economically and social. Tying faith to Patriotism and Country is to miss the whole point, which is to love God by Loving our neighbor as ourself. How that is implemented will look different in each culture. Kindness, honesty, respect, humility, generosity, genuine caring for the other is what that love looks like.

[@bkucenski]

If God didn't want us to be free, he would have just skipped putting the tree in the garden. "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?" - 1 Corinthians 5:12 What the world is doing is of no consequence to Christians until it reaches into the church. Theocrats have never actually read the Bible. If the church did it's job taking care of the poor, there would be no discussions about socialism and communism which are government theories focused on the poor.

[@jvbenjamin]

Greetings from India!

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Curious how many parallels you see between Reagan and Modi or if you see that as fundamentally different.

[@jirensentry7609]

That was the best history lesson I've ever had!!! @40:17, this is a very powerful insight that I have seen but could never figure out exactly what the mindframe was actually revealing. Explaining these old men's view of what they thought freedom was and many still see it this way, helps me better understand just how messed up the policies and such were developed with this thinking in mind. Thus, is it not fair to suggest that there was/is a degree of systemic racial and women oppression in our government and other systems? This being so would not lead me to want to tear down society in a manner that has been suggested by multiple liberal groups, but this education can help us all view our decisions in politics and education and such a lot better to ensure it isn't based on gloom and doom and deception as has been presented by Reagan, the Moral Majority and others in the past and now.

[@benkopczynski2190]

Phil: We waited two weeks so we could talk about this topic with Kaitlynn (sp., sorry) since it’s her expertise and she seems really interested Also Phil: Shut up Kaitlynn, I’m gonna monologue for twenty minutes. Tbf, it was a good monologue, but something felt wrong there.

[@laurentsaint-laurent3659]

Or,to see things differently: he waited two weeks to do his monologue (exposé is a better word,perhaps) because he wanted her feedback and reaction because she's well versed on the subjects...

[@eliaspascoe5108]

Hey Phil and Skye, can we talk about Dominion Theology/dominionism and how that is tied to what we are seeing with Christian Republicans?

[@paulloeffler9124]

I've only got to the theme song and I'm laughing hard. I am so thankful for all of you for your wisdom and humor.

[@styot]

Of course 20th century history is interesting, but could you go to 1864 and find the same things!? It seems States rights, racism and Christianity all bundled up in a neat little package was just as much of a thing then. It didn't suddenly come from no where in 1964.

[@Cyrribrae]

Totally, but on the other hand, this type of reductionism is exactly what phil is providing this context to help ppl break out of, because it plays into the racists' hands to conflate all of conservatism or all of Christianity with their cause. (And if you're not charitable to conservatives, then you don't want to conflate all of Christianity with that either)

[@liberalepiscopalian8332]

Phil gets his history both right and wrong. Eisenhower became President in 1953 and did the bare minimum about civil rights for his two terms. During those eight years, people outside the South became less and less accepting of the racial segregation and oppression in the South. If you read the Republicans and Democrats' 1960 civil rights platforms, they read virtually the same. Kennedy won and started the ball rolling to take action to end the racial segregation and oppression in the South. The segregationists, who were all Democrats, felt betrayed by their party. The Republican Goldwater was the one national politician who stood up in support of allowing Southern states to integrate as they wanted to (which was not at all). Segregationists started switching from the Democratic party to the GOP, citing Goldwater. As Phil said, Goldwater wasn't a racist. In fact, he was a staunch supporter of racial equality and was responsible for the Arizona Air National Guard being integrated from it's inception and for the desegregation of the Senate cafeteria. But his desire for power and support for his libertarian ideas led him to stand up for policies that would allow racial segregation and oppression to continue in the South. Phyllis Schlafly and Ronald Reagan knew that by advocating for Goldwater's Presidential campaign, they were advocating for the continuation of racial segregation and oppression in the South. All three were giving cover for policies so odious that no one could argue directly for them. Phil makes them sound like heroes when they were as about as loathsome as you can get

[@whiteevangelicalswhiteevan6084]

liberal episcopalian, oh I bet you love this show ha ha. They're not with you yet but give it 5 to 7 years

[@lisacawyer6896]

So I'm old enough to remember most of this (with some gaps due to my Dad unplugging the T.V.). I don't really remember much about Reagan as governor, but by the time he ran for president in '80 he was no longer opposed to Medicare. Double digit inflation through the Nixon and Carter years were weighing people down (my dad literally lost his farming business after the bank called in equipment loans). There were race riots, the sexual revolution, tensions with the Soviet Union and Cuba, ineptness in Iran. It may have been partially good timing, but under Reagan (and Bush 1), inflation was finally brought under control, we had no major wars for 8 years (until the first gulf War under Bush), the economy boomed, taxes were reduced, tax rates were tied to inflation, freedom expanded, the Soviet Union collapsed, relations with China improved. Not that there weren't problems under the surface, but for most people the Reagan years were good times.

[@chrisjackson8858]

Skye’s take on classical freedom and modern freedom was great food for thought.

[@UpNorthica]

Would love you to discuss Doctrine of Discovery and the Pope’s apology

[@jpemarshall]

Has the Holy Post had pastor/author Mark Charles on as a guest?

[@UpNorthica]

@@jpemarshall Oh wow. Just checking out a sermon of his on that subject right now. I have not heard of him before but this is amazing, very insightful and historically sound

[@chrisipender]

Great research Phil!

[@bradthomas4071]

Needed more Skye in this discussion.

[@jdarrell9477]

I have to take issue with some comments you all made. What difference does it make if someone doesn't self-identify as a racist (Goldwater voting against the Civil Rights bill on some vague technical reason or someone saying they believe states rights but I am not a racist) if the net result of their actions furthers the cause of the racist? It's like a scene from a gangster movie in which the killer tells the victim that it's not personal just business. The guy is still dead. We blacks obviously have a much different definition of racism than I guess most whites.

[@eviewesner6231]

I loved the first two books! Read it with my teens. Looking forward to this one! Thanks so much, Skye!

[@trishakoury-stoops2372]

I will never step foot in church again.. so much trauma and now christian nationalism.. I am too scared of those who say I am christian .. so not sure what to do with that.. but you guys are helpful and great xo

[@luisbartolomey3988]

Thank You, I always love the historic breakdown. I learn so much.

[@timothymulholland7905]

My KJV only Baptist pastor grandfather, 1898-1981, hated FDR and LBJ and lamented the loss of the “biblical gold standard”. He would have loved Reagan and the modern Christian nationalists.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Biblical gold… Golden rule? Treasures that thieves cannot steal? Golden calves? With frankincense and myrrh? None of these seem to fit…

[@danielb.95]

Learned a lot here, thanks.

[@411dmwhitaker]

So glad that I wasn't the only one that had the paranoia of being condemned for taking communion.

[@cecilwinthorp4038]

You could have gone back to the Federalist Papers because the founders warned about the exact same things.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Well, they said they wanted the same things. Whether they actually delivered is another question…

[@djn5035]

when talking about freedom and how to think about it, recommend Isaiah Berlin and his definition of two concepts of liberty as skye discusses

[@MrMatthias]

You know, I had always known about Barry Goldwater's terrible loss to Lyndon B. Johnson, but I had no idea how cool he was. If he were to have run today, I absolutely would have voted for him based on the way he spoke of Jerry Falwell alone 😆

[@andreabrown4541]

Are you guys planning on renslaving black people again anytime soon? Sure does sound like it. And oh btw, nobody white thought slavery was racist either.

[@salimapeacejoy]

Phil was on a roll 🤣

[@andrewwhittaker2908]

Owe no phil is thinking again.🤦‍♂️

[@marybethfarrell652]

What is so funny, Kaitlin? srsly?

[@BrianReplies]

Does God want us to be free? Well…let’s remember that when Christians get their glorified body and enter their eternal state free of the influence of sinful flesh…. ….they won’t be able to choose to sin anymore. They won’t. Their will will always be in sync with God’s Spirit. So if God wouldn’t do it…you won’t do it as a glorified Christian. Now combo that with the fact that the Bible says that “who the Son sets free is free indeed.” That’s GOD’S definition of freedom. NOT having the ability to choose to sin is the defining characteristic of true freedom. That’s a lot of restraint right there. So if the world’s definition of freedom is “removal of restraint” then … surprise surprise… it does not align with God’s definition of freedom. Once again we see that the mind of the Worldlings is corrupted. They have a wrong definition of freedom and then, in seeking their corrupted “freedom”…they make shipwrecks of their lives.

[@nsaunders1981]

Where does the Bible teach that we will be unable to sin once we get our glorified bodies? Adam was not under the influence of original sin prior to committing it. The angels were not under the influence of sinful flesh when Lucifer and his cohort fell. Mere freedom from original sin or sinful flesh does not, in my reading, equate to the inability to sin. That being the case, the basis for your position falls apart. Not having the ability to choose sin cannot be God's definition of freedom. When Christ sets us free, He does not deprive us of the ability to choose sin. We are free now, in our present state, yet we still choose sin regularly. Christ's freedom is something different. It is freedom from the law, the bondage sin has over us, the guilt and shame associated therewith; His freedom is freedom from the power sin has over us. It is the freedom to live out the fruits of the Spirit without having the blockage of sin separating us from our Father. It is the freedom to once again have a relationship; a relationship in which neither party binds or restricts the other, and instead trusts the other to love him or her with his or her entire being. In love, God, through the sacrifice of His Son and the relationship that sacrifice enabled, removes our DESIRE to sin, not our ability to choose it.