Home Battery Storage Will Explode and Fire will Roast Your Family. NEVER put them in the loft!

Are the BSI having a laugh with PAS 63100:2024?
What are the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero playing at?
Fire fears holding you back from home batteries? We debunk the scary stories and explore the safety features that keep these systems under control.
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ChatGPT says:
Separate fact from fiction: Unmask the truth about home battery explosions and potential fire risks.
Safety first: Deep dive into the built-in safeguards and fire prevention measures of modern home battery systems.
Peace of mind, powered by knowledge: Equip yourself with the information to make informed decisions about home battery safety.
The future of clean energy: Explore how safe and reliable home batteries can be a powerful part of your sustainable journey.
Don't let fear dim your green glow! Let's talk home battery safety and unlock the potential of clean energy for your home!

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

I'd suggest having a gas boiler inside the house is just as bad if not worse.

[@bordersw1239]

Most people get their boilers serviced every year and they have cut outs if they detect a fault

[@hicksonb]

@@bordersw1239 batteries have alarms and cut offs, blue they don’t go on fire, gas does

[@bordersw1239]

@@hicksonb . Batteries don’t catch fire - are you joking?

[@hicksonb]

@@bordersw1239 understand the chemistry in these batteries vs other batteries before the debate.

[@stuartburns8657]

​@@hicksonbIt's not just the vague possibility of a thermal runaway, they also emitt toxic fumes: The measured HF levels, verified using two independent measurement methods, indicate that HF can pose a serious toxic threat, especially for large Li-ion batteries and in confined environments.

[@pmac6584]

I have 18kwh of LFP and have no worries about fire. Ignition point for LFP is about 6/700celcius. If your house is that hot then you have bigger problems than a battery fire.

[@caterthun4853]

Strange why batteries in loft space are being banned with no fires. But, If you are seeking to reduce speed limits in a village area. The government will not look at it until there has been crashes or pedestrian injuries.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Lobby, lobby, lobby. That seems to be the only way to get things changed. Unfortunately, those with the deepest pockets appear to be able to shout louder.

[@Adrayven]

In America they are doing the same stupid thing. They want a ‘fire room’ and lump all Lithium together. They don’t mention Lithium-Iron, they call it Lithium-Metal. I mean seriously, they couldn’t be bothered to actually know what they are regulating. ???

[@fje1948]

You are spot on…. I have been running a 20 kWh battery storage system since 2017 and touch wood my wife & 🐈‍⬛ and myself are still alive! Thank you for this video!

[@UpsideDownFork]

Ahhhh, don't get me started on the likes of Taylor Wimpey and their antics!

[@asabriggs6426]

I think there is a selection effect there. How many have had battery fires and have not lived to tell the tale? ;-)

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@asabriggs6426 they would be in the news, in the fire stats, case studies, etc...

[@mazdamaniac4643]

The UK Government has always been exceeding efficient at legislating for problems that don't exist, based on data that isn't available or is based on opinions from 'experts' and 'consultants' that have no real practical knowledge rather than facts from experienced people.

[@Sean_S1000]

I am understand the point but lfp is not immune to thermal run away which is what leads to a battery fire or the release of explosive gases, for lfp this takes higher temperatures and if a cell is faulty and has potential energy it can become a source of thermal run away. Both ncm and lfp when in thermal run away vent out hydrogen gas when the liquid electrolytes vaporise, if the hydrogen does not escape the battery or the loft it will build up and create an explosive environment. Now call for strict regulations, for instance saying the loft must have detection for that matter so should garages but thats another matter and if ajoined to another building the fire stopping between buildings must be correct and advising not to be installed within warm roofs/lofts would be correct. Although if you the pressure difference in a cold loft wasnt enough to diffuse or eject the hydrogen then that could be another issue. Its not quite as black and white as your making it seem, there shoud be regulaions but also safety guidance on installing within loft spaces. Also it really doesnt matter if the battery is wall mounted or not when the batteries blow the casing away and the batteries are all over the loft on our mounting of flammable stuff we store in the loft, plus if that did not happen then the radiant heat would cus the beams and other flammables to ignite given enough time. Best bet would be to create a plasterboard enclosure around the battery will self sealing vents leadong to the loft and extranal ducting to the out side with detection linked to the home smoke alarms and an indicator to make persons that the fire is in the loft Sorry this was written on my phone if bad grammar etc

[@zjzozn]

Plasterboard 30mins

[@Sean_S1000]

@@zjzozn correct dependant on the thickness, would probably recommend 2 layers of 15mm pink lined plasterboard staggering the joints and seal the internal joints with intumescent mastic just to be safe. Probably a good idea to have an induction and exhaust fan which monitor the temperature and to help control the temperature. To make it one better you could fully insulate it as well therefore in winter the excess heat that comes off the battery will make sure that the battery always stay up a decent temperature meaning it can operate still fully even in the coldest of temperatures outside, but this would make a very complex and expensive design to be honest

[@caterthun4853]

It's the insurance companies that will decide how save batteries in lofts are.

[@UpsideDownFork]

My home insurance company (Churchill) does not care about solar and home storage batteries. No increase in premium, at all.

[@tonyw999]

Nope. Insurance companies follow industry regulations.

[@ecoterrorist1402]

I'm an installer, 99% of all my battery & Inverter installations are located in the garage. mine is in my 1st floor landing, on the loading bearing wall below. Batteries & inverters also go well on a North facing wall.

[@melhiore]

Best rant this week... Love it... And fully agree with your view...

[@johnfreshwater3790]

Great video. I have had a rant at Artisan electrics about this as he says he won't put them in a loft. I mentioned the fact that most are bolted to the wall and look at what started Grenfell. Shall we remove all electrical appliances from our houses. Strangely I haven't had any reply The worlds gone mad!

[@bazcurtis178]

My friend was a fireman who was killed in a fire caused by a tea light that was left to burn. I bet more fires are started due to candle being left unmonitored.

[@norfolkecokiwi]

I have my batteries in the loft and have looked over the PAS document in question so was naturally concerned, however, I don't believe the main point of the document was to infer that the batteries themselves would be the source of combustion, but rather a hazard for firefighters if they fell through the roof. Hopefully amendments where batteries are secured in a fashion where they are not able to fall through the roof (such as being bolted to the wall or enclosed in a large server cabinet straddling multiple rafters) will be considered. The reason for not putting them under the stairs or in bedrooms is to minimise the risk of the batteries being "fuel" for an already existing fire - though I agree, the battery chemistry would play into the risk factor here. In my instance, I am considering fully enclosing my Pylontech batteries in a sturdy cabinet and will fix this to multiple points in the loft. The other options would be far more complicated and expensive so hopefully some common sense will prevail.

[@fredbloggs72]

As this, it's about what happens to batteries when there is a fire, not if they cause a fire.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for the comment David. Although others have reported it that way, that's not what the official explainer says that accompanies the document. "The provisions in PAS 63100:2024 are intended to reduce the risk of batteries in dwellings becoming a source of ignition, and to limit the impact of a battery fire if one occurs." You can read that yourself here : knowledge.bsigroup.com/products/electrical-installations-protection-against-fire-of-battery-energy-storage-systems-for-use-in-dwellings-specification?version=standard

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for the comment David. Although others have reported it that way, that's not what the official explainer says that accompanies the document. "The provisions in PAS 63100:2024 are intended to reduce the risk of batteries in dwellings becoming a source of ignition, and to limit the impact of a battery fire if one occurs." You can read that yourself here : knowledge.bsigroup.com/products/electrical-installations-protection-against-fire-of-battery-energy-storage-systems-for-use-in-dwellings-specification?version=standard

[@Jaw0lf]

Well said. It is not like gas pipes ever explode when they leak! The power demand of a home battery is tiny compared to that of an EV that can claim maybe 10x the load at any time. Therefore they should keep running for a very long time.

[@Group51]

Let’s see if they say to put hydrogen boiler outside.

[@joewentworth7856]

I had a cheap ebay no brand 18650 cell explode while on charge. No fire but unbelievably loud bang, ringing ears for an hour or more. Cheap charger and a cell without battery protection, it turns out. A completely different beast to a modern home energy storage pack.

[@metalhead2550]

Only allowed to put them outside just in case they spontaneously combust which is complete rubbish... So I can't use them as my target for my indoor archery practice!?

[@richardrussell7082]

Wait! What? Awwwwww...... 'sad twang' ☹

[@Pete-rf6zz]

❤❤ agree with this. We have storage in the loft, and have considered moving it but after going over historic heat temps of our batteries they stayed well within tolerance and it was hot last year, there is ventilation in our loft so not worried. And I think Givenergy would of tested them to the extreme for sure

[@davidclark2286]

Put the battery outside, performance of virtually any battery in the winter especially in cold snaps is very poor at just the time you need the battery to perform at it best. In the garage, it down the bottom of the garden, no insulation, only marginally warmer than the outside and long long cable runs. Build a separate remote building for your storage batteries and electronics, needs to be insulated to modern house standards to stop it overheating in summer or getting to cold in winter so 350/400mm walls required plus probably additional heating for winter. So a 4ft by 6ft enclosure is going to be 2m x 2.5m plus all that extended cable runs from the roof and probably need thicker wires to minimise voltage drop. Build an underground space, ah, they covered that, not only do you need an access but a second independent emergency exit as well. Build a compartment in a new building not allowed to be in the centre of the building where I have an unused heater cupboard which housed an oil boiler, and cannot be near a door. Can not see why anyone could think this paper is designed to make it economically unviable to have battrry storage.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Many good points!

[@OutdoorLiving88]

It's all about gov control. And who controls the gov? Big corporations.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Amen. Oil money has a lot to answer for!

[@jonthecont]

if battery was mounted to the wall in the loft, where is the risk of it falling through the ceiling in a fire?

[@edc1569]

How do you even get the thing into the loft without risking injury, they’re not light.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Most batteries are an easy lift into the loft for 3 men.

[@st200ol]

The ones that had a fire won't answer me, I shouted as loud as I could down the cemetery but no reply.

[@UpsideDownFork]

😂

[@CaptainProton1]

I always thought storing batteries in the loft was a bad idea as some lofts get to insane heat levels and humidity. I would never have anything other than Lifepo4 batteries in the house. I've built over a hundred ebike, solar and even some car conversion batteries. Hot wet environment for power hungry appliances are never a good idea.

[@UpsideDownFork]

A well ventilated loft should be dry. LFP is stable well into the hundreds of degrees. A loft at 40 or 50 degrees in the height of summer shouldn't pose any issue.

[@CaptainProton1]

@@UpsideDownFork I know the chemistry well. It's more the supporting electronics that can fail in high heat in Summer. many attics are sealed up like a kipper. I agree though that you can't lump al lithium batteries in the same risk factor.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@CaptainProton1 the interesting thing about the document is that it goes into specifics about spaces being well ventilated etc, it just stops short of giving a definitive checklist of which loft spaces would be suitable and which wouldn't.

[@smartjim]

I am getting my Solar array and battery next month. The installer will install the battery in the loft. To mitigate any concerns I'm putting in a smoke alarm and a camera monitor. I am not to concerned otherwise. However, my neighbour's house had a house fire lasy year due to a Dremel charger overheating and therefore caused the fire

[@bernardcharlesworth9860]

Happy with my lfp home battery.under the stairs my sister and two friends have them no fires no problems.tesla Berlin had vandals set light to some cars it burnt the interiors and lfp batteries were fine. Hives protects me as an installer and they are happy with batteries in homes.

[@tonywebb9909]

Its a good rant. Although there were a lot of companies doing a cheap job and not even considering putting them somewhere else. I always go for the utility room, it is just the same level of danger as a boiler, which are shoved into a cupboard. Also nowdays batteries and inverters are being designed to be modular and quite easy on the eye. A lot of loft systems seem to get ignored for years to.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Good points!

[@RaithUK]

We have a NMC chem battery and ours has been going almost 2 years and its not killed us yet lol this will be a result of what happens IFFF they do go up.. if one goes up its gonna be total house loss due to the inability to stop the fire..

[@UpsideDownFork]

It's a fair point.

[@hicksonb]

Never had an electrical fire Have my batteries (15kW) in the attic, on the wall, not the rafters. Have no concerns as the Lithium Iron Phosphate is not combustible! Also all wiring, shunts, switches are in line with Regs.

[@steve_787]

I think what the guidance should say is that the batteries should be mounted to a wall where possible in a loft. Or that they are on fire board with double trimmers over 2-3 trusses minimum to spread the load. It's what you'd do if you put a hot water tank weighing 200-300kg in there 🤷‍♂

[@johnxrv]

I have 10 kwh under my bed ( 4 x 200 ah 12.8 power queen ) and will keep them right there. Nanny state.

[@wajopek2679]

Some things need to stand “The Test of Time” before we truly find out things that can go horribly wrong.

[@UpsideDownFork]

It's a valid point. There are many millions of LFP cells in homes and cars and there is not yet any evidence that supports the stance this document takes when it comes to risk assessment. If they have evidence, they should cite it.

[@steve_787]

Buckinghamshire has one fire which mentions solar panels being on a roof, but doesn't specifically say it was the panels that caused it. Only mention of a battery fire (non e-bike etc.) was in a warehouse and a 1 ton lead acid battery was on fire.

[@bordersw1239]

There have been 2 close to me. One was social housing and they recently had solar installed - roof caught fire shortly afterwards.

[@steve_787]

@@bordersw1239 that in the bucks area?

[@bordersw1239]

@@steve_787 wales and Herefordshire

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for doing your homework and reporting to the class!

[@restfulplace3273]

Common sense should always prevail. Education is key, when risk is understood, things don’t look so dangerous.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Amen!

[@DavidJohnson-yg8qm]

Well I hate to burst people's bubbles but my opinion of net zero is the least of my concerns. Moving forward as being less energy dependant is a good idea over TIME. But all this knee jerk drive is essentially overkill. For example, solar panels, what are we going to do with them after 20 years they are the plastic of the future. An environmental catastrophe in the waiting. They can't be recyled so they are a stupid idea.

[@UpsideDownFork]

We're all entitled to our opinions so thanks for sharing yours. Solar panels are glass, metal and silicon cells. All of the component parts are easily and readily recycled. New centres are popping up to break the finish article down back into it's component parts. Surprisingly, the stats on the longevity of solar panels show that they are outliving the manufacturers expectations.

[@lawrie3448]

Got to look at insurance and what’s happening with EVs - do it else you won’t get insurance !

[@steve_787]

Whats happening with EV insurance? I did a quick refresh on what my premium would be and it's £589 for a 2020 MG ZS ev vs £524 for the same year/model as an auto or £480 if it's the manual. Given my car is between 2.2-4'.0s quicker 0-60 I'm happy to pay a little more for the performance model 😉 Also the difference is more than made up with in the drop on road tax from £190 to £0. With the £109 saving (best case) I even have enough to buy 1450kWh of elec on my over night rate @7.5p which will get me 4650 miles of driving @ 3.2mi/kWh.

[@hicksonb]

My EV insurance went down 48 quid

[@UpsideDownFork]

My home insurance company (Churchill) does not care about solar and home storage batteries. No increase in premium, at all. Working in the motor trade, I know a couple of VDA's, the issue seems to be a very localised and Tesla specific challenge. Part chain supply is the critical thing. It's nothing to do with fire risk.

[@ChrisJakins]

I suppose solar and battery installations might be a factor in terms of how easy a fire is to put out? But on the other hand homes with this technology tend to have the latest spec consumer units and generally better standards of wiring as they will have had that checked by the electricians. There is this narrative that batteries spontaneously combust but that is more from improper disposal or misuse of small cheap batteries. The regs should be informed by engineering facts not daily mail FUD. I do take fire safety seriously and have alarms and extinguishers as I always did. I don’t see solar equipment as high risk. Keeping batteries and inverters in a temperature stable environment should help with longevity and performance and somewhere where they can be inspected regularly is sensible.

[@justinclayton3022]

Think your assessment of Loft fires may miss some risks. If the lithium in a loft installed battery catches fire it can burn through most things (including bolts/brackets) and are v difficult to put out without specialist extinguishers . My understanding is that if the Lithium battery in a aircraft on a aircraft carrier deck catches fire, the solution is to push the very expensive aircraft overboard, to avoid catastrophic damage to the ship. Lithium battery fire did happen on a newish Boeing aircraft. Part of the solution was to put the battery in a steel box, with vents to outside of aircraft - ie from a fire point of view it was effectively outside the aircraft. Maybe putting house batteries inside a fireproof box on the inside of external walls with a suitable vent will become a solution for houses. I would not look at house installed battery fire occurrences to judge fire safety risk. So far just not enough data. Maybe if you looked at whole of Europe or other uses of Lithium ion batteries for reasonable stats. Installing new technology with a potential fire risk inside homes and waiting for accidents to occur before fire risk is considered fully is the sub-optimal safety process. Just imagine pre-Grenfell, if someone claimed that putting flammable insulation panels on the outside of buildings was safe because no building had yet burnt down yet!

[@UpsideDownFork]

You make some good points. I did search and search and search for other battery fires. I paid close attention to electric car fires which turn out to be much lower than ICE vehicles in both Europe and in the USA. I just can't find any evidence that supports this shift, at all. If the proposed revision to regulation has supporting evidence, then it should be cited.

[@jchidley]

House electrics cause fires, this is why AFDD (Arc Fault Detection Devices) are recommended and, in some cases, required under the wiring regulations. There are other regulations to mitigate fire risks e.g. "Regulation 422.2.1 states that cables shall not encroach on escape routes". Batteries can, and do, cause fires. There are plenty of other things that cause fires (like the time when I forgot about the oil in the frying pan I left unattended). I think that this is overdone (like battery fires in electric vehicles - petrol cars are worse) and I believe that there are people pushing false narratives. My brand new battery is installed outside because 1) I don't have the space inside and 2) I feel safer.

[@nicholaspostlethwaite9554]

It is just daft to have any of it in a loft. Obviously. I agree not that much of a fire risk though. Future batteries (NOT Batt Trees!) may use a new chemistries and have an unforeseen similar risk. Some of the caution seems to be based on not starting the fire but being a risk to firemen, power on, not accessible to turn off.

[@UpsideDownFork]

If they have evidence or data to support this new guidance, they should cite it.

[@nicholaspostlethwaite9554]

@@UpsideDownFork It is just daft, poor access, out of sight and mind to notice anything odd. There are YT installers that say they never have or would install in a loft anyway. Still it is only guidance for now, and if there is a big backlash it may either find evidence, or not get taken further.

[@UpsideDownFork]

​@@nicholaspostlethwaite9554 I take your points. For those of us who have the luxury, I could choose to have battery outside, in my garage or in the loft. All 3 spaces in my home have plenty of space for batteries, but unfortunately this guidance once again discriminates against those who aren't as fortunate. On the other point of it being out of sight, out of mind. 99 out of 100 people wouldn't have a clue if something was up, even if it was staring right at them. These systems have hundreds of sensors and self shut down and report if anything is a miss.

[@nicholaspostlethwaite9554]

@@UpsideDownFork I accept there will be some for whom the space is a problem. Some like those with flats will probably not have a roof for panels anyway! I suspect something like outdoor cabinets may come about, put up in any available garden space. Yes on the noticing things wrong a new light flashing etc. But there is perhaps the chance of some development of a warnings panel that is simple to see and understand. Can't cover every eventuality! From what I have seen recently, many whole systems installed are able to report faults back to base on line anyway. Even something as simple as resetting the main trip, or a fuse would be more awkward in the loft in the dark, were all power meters up there. Just not a handy place for anything but long term storage really.

[@richardrussell7082]

I wonder if it's so that the companies that build these cheap ass 'puke homes' (because they're thrown up) can continue to build sub-standard houses with all the structural strength of a crisp packet. 🤔

[@B0jangle5]

It's been interesting reading the number of posts and comments from electricians thinking this is a change in the regulations or that they have now been "banned" because of this guidance document.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Yep. That is disheartening.

[@bazcurtis178]

Mine are in my loft and I feel safe. I really should get a smoke detector up there. My batteries are LFP which I believe are much safer. I can understand the fire department worried about weight and them falling. As you said, don’t put your hoover board or e-scooter in the loft 😀. If I put them under the stairs, surely that might block my exit and much less air flow.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Good points! I'm pretty sure smoke detectors have been common fit for most installers over the last couple of years.

[@mistercohaagen]

Thankfully random KZbinrs have destroyed every kind of battery possible in every kind of way, so you can look up these things yourself and watch how they fail and what kind of hazards they present as they do so. It's all highly manageable risk with the enormous reward of robust home energy production for decades, and the technology to bake in all sorts of safety layers is easily affordable at any scale. People who fearmonger about Green Technologies have a Pro-Oil agenda, end of story. The answer to bad Green Tech is better Green Tech... not reverting to dependence on OPEC and obsolete polluting paradigms.

[@davidvincent5244]

Miss reporting. What they were saying is when you have a normal house fire there is more chance of the batteries coming through the ceiling when they are putting out the fire. Hence, it's the external fire that they are worried about.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for the comment David. Although others have reported it that way, that's not what the official explainer says that accompanies the document. "The provisions in PAS 63100:2024 are intended to reduce the risk of batteries in dwellings becoming a source of ignition, and to limit the impact of a battery fire if one occurs." You can read that yourself here : knowledge.bsigroup.com/products/electrical-installations-protection-against-fire-of-battery-energy-storage-systems-for-use-in-dwellings-specification?version=standard

[@tonyw999]

If this was the case then why not set specifications for how batteries are secured to stop them coming through the ceiling?

[@52gulfpapa]

My batteries, 98 2013 Leaf modules, have been installed for 5.5 years, although I haven't tested them, I really don't notice any degradation. I operate off-grid, and they are installed in my laundry room.

[@mark_just_mark]

I thought the main reasoning for this document was not the battery ‘causing’ the fire but the issues relating to the battery being in the loft if there should be a house fire…

[@UpsideDownFork]

Thanks for the comment David. Although others have reported it that way, that's not what the official explainer says that accompanies the document. "The provisions in PAS 63100:2024 are intended to reduce the risk of batteries in dwellings becoming a source of ignition, and to limit the impact of a battery fire if one occurs." You can read that yourself here : knowledge.bsigroup.com/products/electrical-installations-protection-against-fire-of-battery-energy-storage-systems-for-use-in-dwellings-specification?version=standard

[@keithwilson8971]

The document is not about 4:47 that the battery are a cause of fire but if a victim of fire could be a danger to the homeowner or firefighters if the fire causes ceilings to collapse. A 5 kWh battery typically weighs 50kg. A lot of weight to be installed in a loft. I know of 20 kw batteries. 200kg concentrated in a small area that is not necessarily designed to take it under normal circumstances let alone in a fire.

[@robinbennett5994]

No, it specifically says it covers both: "The provisions are intended to reduce the risk of batteries in dwellings becoming a source of ignition, and limit the impact of a battery fire should one occur."

[@edc1569]

@@robinbennett5994is the flaming battery falling through a ceiling a risk?

[@UpsideDownFork]

As robin has covered and quoted the exact wording, i'll leave it there. I believe others have intepreted the guidance differently and put their personal spin on it.

[@edc1569]

Nope I agree on this one, batteries shouldn’t be in your loft, neither should boilers.

[@UpsideDownFork]

I don't mind them making new guidance or regulation but they should provide evidence and data to support their position. If they had any of that data, surely they would cite it.

[@BassPunk]

Dvd-rw power connection caught🔥 in PC case. Drive had previously stopped working but I had left the power connected ☠️ Was able to power PC off before it damaged anything else 😅 Lesson learnt. Escooter fires are what I’d be most concerned with, very unregulated 😬

[@johnrea2115]

All this technology is it suitable as we enter the time of global boiling, we must follow the science