Hopes And Dreams (No main melody redux)

[@jamierootwo]

Hi, I’m not a homestuck fan so idk where you all came from but hi

[@noideangl]

penumbra phantasm

[@venade9997]

Its cuz hopes and dreams (apparently) has the penumbra phantasm motif (penumbra phantasm is an unreleased homestuck song by toby) and people just found that out.

[@insertnamehere1398]

it's okay you just casually helped a large ammount of people hear a melody very important to toby fox's istory in a song they didn't know it was in so thanks :D

[@Zoukos23]

The fact that Penumbra Phantasm was so well hidden means that its inclusion was 100% intentional and has important story implications for Deltarune

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

Honestuck motifs have straignt up appeared in Undertale, as well. Aside from Penumbra Phantasm, we also have Another Medium veing a remix of Patient, and Megalovania being in everything Toby has done, including Homestuck.

[@theoneandonlyZef]

@@andyroobrick-a-brack9355 yes, but penumbra being in THE HOLY in deltarune has more implications for that theme in particular. Both appearances show up in angel-related context, so perhaps penumbra is the angel's theme?

[@MinorLife10]

What implications, exactly? We are gonna fight Asriel?

[@8pierrot89]

Which bugs the HELL outta me, personally. Homestuck's soundtrack was a collaborative effort of many skilled musicians and the leimotifs created for it are all more or less shared freely _when concerning music associated with Homestuck._ But Deltarune is very decidedly NOT related to Homestuck. I don't think it's right for Toby to use _Penumbra Phantasm_ - a song that heavily features and borrows from Usagi Buzinkai's _Doctor,_ a very influential Homestuck track made by someone who can't even consent to its use due to their tragic passing, in Deltarune.

[@MontycelA]

⁠Why does that matter at all, it’s like using Mozart music bro

[@astercorsiglia9391]

NO FUCKING WAAAAY HE HID PENUMBRA PHANTASM

[@SirLamington]

9 years later, I discover that Toby somehow managed to expertly hide a melody with heavy implications for the next installment he had in mind. What a genius, everyone.

[@jackatk]

In case anyone comes here to ask, it’s at 1:19 !

[@buny0058]

Yup. This is also in hopes of field in deltarune in a very vage way!

[@jackatk]

@@buny0058 Vague?

[@buny0058]

@@jackatk Apologizes. It was a typo at the time.

[@marcelinepink]

There's two types of reactions to penumbra Phantasm: Homestuck fans think it's cool And Deltarune fans lose their fucking minds

[@colon44]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT IT'S PENUMBRA FUCKING PHANTASM

[@groetaer]

im kind of both, i like penumbra phantasm from a long time, seeing the percussion it has now made me a little angry in the start but i slowly started enjoying the ideia and accepting it is a really viable possibility

[@luminalier1263]

NAH YOU DONT KNOW THE HOMESTUCK FAN WAIT THIS SHIT HAS BEEN FOURTEEN YEARS OF TOMFUCKERY

[@marcelinepink]

@@luminalier1263 Haha lol that's a more normal reaction than what I've been seeing from some homestuck fans tbf

[@Sebastian_guy]

that’s what happens when you don’t get a new chapter for more than 3 years

[@PokeRen]

STOP POSTING ABOUT PENUMBRA PHANTASM! I'M TIRED OF SEEING IT! THE SONGS IN HOMESTUCK ARE PENUMBRA PHANTASM, IN UNDERTALE IT'S FUCKING PENUMBRA PHANTASM! I was looking at boss predictions, right? and ALL OF THE THEMES were just Penumbra Phantasm. I-I showed Hopes and Dreams to my girlfriend and t-the melody I removed it and I said "hey babe, when the Penumbra is Phantasm HAHA DUN DUN DUN DUNDUN" I fucking looked at THE HOLY and said "THAT'S PENUMBRA PHANTASM" I looked at She's Playing Piano I hear the piano rhythm and I go "PIANO? MORE LIKE PIANUMBRA PHANTASM" AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHGESFG

[@marnie364]

You’ll shit bricks when you hear it

[@sarckat7021]

1:19 🧱🧱🧱🧱

[@bharatsachdeva6683]

"AT SHADOW'S EDGE, SHATTER THE TWILIGHT REVERIE." "The edge of the shadow, where reality and dream meet." "Three HEROES appear at WORLDS' edge." Penumbra Phantasm is present in Hopes and Dreams because of the parallels between what's happening in the Asriel fight and what will happen when we "banish the angel's heaven." We appear at WORLDS' edge (in UT, the edge between the underground and the surface; in DR, the edge of the shadow, where reality and dream meet) in order to shatter a barrier (in UT, the barrier; in DR, the twilight reverie)

[@whocaresaboutthename6850]

"The Twilight Reverie/World's Edge" is the Barrier between The LightWorld and the DarkWorld!

[@radio_0021]

thats really cool. im sure that smth like this will happen, toby didn't say that deltarune is undertale's parallel game for nothing

[@davisdf3064]

If we assume Penumbra Phantasm will be Deltarune's final boss theme, then Asriel being the final boss is still very much a possibility, holy shots

[@ediblepencil494]

i like the idea of asriel being the final boss again, but the roles are switched kinda. instead of us trying to save asriel, it's asriel trying to save kris and help them be free from the soul's control

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

I think The Angel will be the final boss, personally. Maybe they would be Asriel, Noelle, etc, but I think the Angel will be they're own character.

[@Undertalenjoyer]

this actually makes sense since he has Delta Rune symbol on his robe which would make him somewhat related to deltarune. I mean he is the absolute god so him going to different narratives and stuff would be on point.

[@leedlelel2373]

​​​@@andyroobrick-a-brack9355 Id say Noelle has the highest chance out of everyone of being the final boss, too much of the unfolding story is tied to her

[@g.t.nlastwish8410]

I was thinking W.D. Gaster or the Roaring Titans being the final boss battle of deltarune but what you guys said kinda make sense too

[@gesaltcrystals2233]

Wtf penumbra phantasm real???

[@StudioHyper1424]

I fervently hope that Toby Fox uses Penumbra Phantasm in Deltarune, if he purposely hid it in this song and it is also mentioned that he initially did not want that song to be revealed because it was for something beyond. It gives me hope.

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

A Penumbra is literally the edge of a shadow cast by an eclipse. The name "Penumbra Phantasm" has immense implications for Deltarune.

[@blunt_master]

he did. The Holy

[@ahmed4363]

THE HOLY blatantly uses it.

[@asteroid889]

Fun fact: In the original song, you can hear the penumbra phantasm leitmotif easier by removing your left earphone

[@Sebastian_guy]

im cooked bro the left earphone is the only one that works 😿🙏

[@qiriq_q]

If you go a little further than "oh, he inserted Penumbra Phantasm into Hopes and Dreams", then you can see almost 100% similarity of the segment 00:22 - 00:45 with the main motif of Penumbra And if you also take the fact that at the end of Penumbra you can hear something similar to the main melody of Undertale, then you can catch yourself on very interesting reflections

[@Conduit-SeaWing]

everyones going OMG HOMESTUCK OMG PENUMBRA PHANTASM! and im here for that too but this really still manages to hold up as a final boss theme even without the main melody

[@tsuchinokoball]

penumbra phantasm is the good ending while megalovania is the bad ending

[@stardust-reverie]

both? both. both is good.

[@Hikkiko2007]

Penumbra as a motif seems to be heavily connected to Asriel, given it's used in: - Hopes and Dreams 0:22 1:19 - Finale - Your Best Nightmare - His Theme - Memory in hopes and dreams, penumbra phantasm motif for some reason is almost impossible to perceive with the main melody, does this imply that Toby Fox INTENTIONALLY hid this motif? Interesting, right? very, very interesting.

[@SpamDustt411]

Motif Connected to one of the forms (Final Form) of the Main Antagonist of the game (Twitter's Undertale/Deltarune account posted like Flowey when Undertale came out, and now it's doing the same, but instead it's talking like Gaster for making the connection on Deltarune) Hope to see gaster's real form, and final form, having his Theme, remixed with Motifs from Deltarune and the final Penumbra Phantasm Theme finished (Also hope to see something like S Collide on Game, the track has like, A LOT of instruments, and, i could say, even motifs from UTDR and Penumbra Phantasm motifs (obviously bc it's final battle from Homestuck)

[@CG09_TMP]

So true hikkiko

[@whocaresaboutthename6850]

​@@SpamDustt411What if we turn Gaster good?

[@manufacturedfromabove79]

W.D. Gaster as the final boss battle does make sense though I think the Dark Ancient Titans or Noelle Holiday had a very high chance of being the final boss fight aswell

[@whocaresaboutthename6850]

@@manufacturedfromabove79 The Titans are obv gonna be bossess just not the final ones, as The Prophecy is completed after they are already defeated, so the final boss is def gonna be The Angel but what or who is The Angel is unknow, could be Noelle or even Gaster himself (tricking us into free him from The Dephts whitch is what The Angel's Heaven actually is, us banishing it means we're taking The Angel out of it in this context) but the truth is Gaster wouldn't be a actual Angel, he is The Devil he calls himself The Angel bc of his powers.

[@nikkari5780]

I had no idea wtf penumbra phantasm was before this. And now i'm gonna go down another rabbit hole. I thought I knew basically every secret in current undertale and deltarune.

[@D3NPC]

YOOO THEY ACTUALLY KEPT PENUMBRA PHANTASM IN AND YOU CAN ACTUALLY HEAR IT (BTW it starts before the your best friend motif and proceeds until said motif overpowers the hopes and dreams undertale melody

[@pyroinferno000]

Man that secondary melody just slaps so hard ya know, whenever it shows up

[@ugiugiyogyn.]

1:19 ON "SHADOW'S EDGE". SHATTER THE TWILIGHT REVERIE.

[@tada-sv7el]

Penumbra Phantasm hidden in Hopes and dreams and Hopes and dreams hidden in Penumbra Phantasm (piano ver)... interesting.

[@rin_reverie]

I fucking love penumbra phantasm jumpscare!!!

[@fluoriteByte]

This and gaster's theme being based on an unreleased tumblr tracks that was then uploaded to the homeztuck soundtest library means that deltarune will become tumblr in 2014

[@luxentmacaroni]

Which unreleased gaster Tumblr track are you talking about??

[@fluoriteByte]

@@luxentmacaroni Forest Dreams - Homestuck Sound Test

[@Jetster26]

ngl i think this is the only one i can find that is in the right key

[@elliottlava7784]

At this point I've given up believing that toby fox is a human being like no, you can't just make my favourite video game, then my other favourite video game, and then my other favorite video game and then it comes out that you've been foreshadowing this shit since 2011 and that secrets in the game are still coming out like you're only allowed to do one of those things 💀💀💀

[@sillypinkmoth]

we

[@colon44]

nice bea- holy SHIT is that Penumbra Phantasm???!!?!!?!!!!

[@saurie2466]

penumbruh moment

[@jwump]

is penumbra phantasm actually in the original? cant hear it on steam soundtrack ver at 1:19

[@xcenex479]

It is there, I think, but barely noticeable, since it overlaps with Flowey’s theme. You have to listen very carefully.

[@jwump]

@@xcenex479 i tried really hard and it is just barely noticeable at a few points, very interesting.

[@koth_harvest_final]

yes, here's the original with it more audible kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4i3lpaZhqukoaM

[@ajshitshed]

i genuinely thought PP was put in this for idk, the lols or something. but no its VERY faintly hearable in the original. toby fox has once again chucked hammers against my cranium, i think im losing my mind right now

[@spinomania1921]

@@ajshitshed "AT SHADOW'S EDGE, SHATTER THE TWILIGHT REVERIE" -Toby Fox when asked about Penumbra Phantasm "The edge of the shadow, where reality and dream meet" -Toby Fox tweet about Deltarune dream

[@invalid_user_handle]

Hm... it sure is strange that the figure that could be closely described as an 'angel' in Undertale is the one that has one of the most important lore-centric motifs (it's melody is also used in THE HOLY and Once Upon a Time, for instance) baked into most of it's music. That same character also happens to be absent in Deltarune, and supposedly will not return until the end of the week (If Ch. 1 was a Monday, than Ch.7 will happen on Sunday). Angel returns on Sunday... Angel's Heaven... Very, very interesting connection, don't you think? Not to mention the link that Undertale's implied to be told as a bedtime story, the dark worlds are influenced by the hopes and _dreams_ of the Lightners, some dark world themes (particularly the ones in the early part of Chapter 1) use *Nightmare Knight* motifs, and the supposed connection of the Phantasm motif to the Roaring/Twilight Reverie (reverie is a daydream)... it's almost as if Toby's trying to say something important here? I _would_ link this to my theory of "Hopes and Dreams are both extensions of Determination, and DT is required for both magic (manipulation of space) and saving/loading (manipulation of time) across Undertale and Deltarune, so if anyone believed they could enough, could they use magic even if they were a human and/or in the light world" but I don't have the energy to retype that whole thesis so I'm just leaving it at that.

[@GSavel]

Further plot twist: the leitmotif being present is actually because Asriel absorbed Clover's SOUL, since the motif (used in UT:Y as the Wild East motif) from Clover's portion of the Omega Flowey battle originates from Homestuck

[@lartts7483]

UTY is not canon

[@BamsyTheSergal]

i realized it was in the song when i played this in my car, it shows itself really well

[@LoiValdes]

So, he DID really use the Doctor motif for this song

[@CG09_TMP]

It's the Penumbra Phantasm version of Doctor but yeah he did

[@سائر_في_الطريق]

Too underrated

[@nelopprime1573]

actually though Penumbra phantasm is definitely gonna be a banger major boss theme in Deltarune near the end Everyone is eating good from this, but especially anyone who nerds out about gaster, antd even moreso any oblivion theory heads

[@g.t.nlastwish8410]

"Nightmare Knight" and "Penumbra phantasm" are definitely going to be used for future chapter of Deltarune a boss fight theme for the Roaring Knight, W.D. Gaster or the Dark Ancient Titans once chapter 3&4 finally come out the whole fandom will get so freaking hetic

[@saulgoodmanproductions2993]

Chat is this real

[@CG09_TMP]

yea

[@hhbthefella]

Bro that logo shaking so hard

[@CG09_TMP]

phantasm

[@PurpleSparklesHeart]

NO FUCKING WAY

[@doom64hunter]

The Penumbra Phantasm leitmotif is similar to the melody of "His Theme" -- the subsequence "A, C#, C#, D" appears 3 times in the latter. Penumbra Phantasm: {D, C#, A, C#, C#, D} and repeat His Theme: {A, E, D, A, C#, C#, D, A, D, A, C#, C#, D} and {A, E, D, A, C#, C#, D, A, D, F#, E, D, E} Penumbra Phantasm's leitmotif also has the same simplicity as Gaster's theme, consisting of 3 notes, raising and falling, endlessly repeated.

[@radiosilent0]

A? isn't it E in penumbra?

[@JestersDream5368]

Epic, this should have more recognition

[@nelopprime1573]

Penning the numbra on my phantasm

[@potatofarmer9488]

PENUMBRA PHANTASM!!!!!!

[@balala7567]

1:18 oh hi homestuck (listen to background piano)

[@clust3rpepis]

housefrozen: nurse

[@DandyDoondin]

1:30 how do you even manage to hear this over everything else in the original track

[@athan13590]

You ever wondered why in the Deltarune intro Gaster is cut before he can tell Kris their name? That POS just deadnamed them. He even switched from his Font to Regular Text when telling Kris how no one can choose who they are because he thinks harassing people to own the libs is anywhere near as cool as Sans's dialogue LMFAO The song that plays when you encounter the yellow/purple eyes basement dweller that captures his incel energy is Digital Roots because he's proven that he's got nothing better to do all day than harass a teenager for respecting their own opinion on what makes them happy because he can't accept people identifying as anything but the two digit system they were born with (their digital roots) Sans and Papyrus hide their relationship to him and you would too. Even the game itself hides him under mounts of RNG because Toby Fox does not want to be associated with that abomination. Gaster's Entry Nunber 17 is a cryptid text with lots of speculation surrounding it, but if one thing's certain is that HE USED A SCIENTIFIC DOCUMENT FOR AN EXPERIMENT WHOSE FAILURE CAUSES DOZENS TO SUFFER TO WRITE HIS STUPID FUCKING EDGELORD POEM. Gaster was there when Alphys was working herself to death trying to singlehandedly defy death in a flilthy basement because that's the only place where her precursor could belong, and instead of trying to prevent all the suffering that would result, he just let it happen. Gaster is singlehandedly responsible for Alphys, the Amalgamates and even Flowey's suffering throughout Undertale as Alphys was desperately trying to prevent it

[@petruciosxd1374]

is this a copypasta

[@radio_0021]

so true

[@stardust-reverie]

broke: gaster wrote the proper grammar entries and alphys wrote the lowercase ones woke: alphys wrote all the entries BESPOKE: alphys was the one writing all the entries and doing actual work while gaster was doing jack fuck and dicking around with darkness in the SAME EXACT LAB with his sole contribution of any kind of note being entry 17 which is completely irrelevant to the actual important DT experiments

[@vic-lk2in]

He switched fonts because the regular font isnt him its either chara, or some other secret gaster-like character we will discover later Gaster 'fell into his own creation' (got from the gaster supporters), meaning he probably created the core or DT extractor or smth. Also i dont think you know what 'easter eggs' are. Entry 17 had nothing to do with DT, he said 'photon readings negative' which means darkness which means the experiments were most likely related to dark fountains. Pretty sure the 'DeltaRune' is just an experiment made by gaster, because he basically hacked into toby's twitter because toby'd account tweeted a part of the Legend said by ralsei in a very similair style to gaster before deltarune's release, and also encouraged the players to test Deltarune, and then after that dtarune came out.

[@athan13590]

@@vic-lk2in Video game Easter Eggs are hidden/obscure details for the players to discover, like easter eggs irl. Entry 17 was written during Alphys's experiments because of its name, he just chose to let the amalgamates suffer because he's a loser whose family is ashamed

[@Maukustus]

PENUMBR

[@jamierootwo]

Hm?

[@Maukustus]

@@jamierootwo penumbra phantasm at 1:19

[@jamierootwo]

@@Maukustus ah

[@a.d.t.mapping]

can i use this as background music for a video?

[@jamierootwo]

yes

[@Artism_vpn]

PENUMBRA PHANTASM??

[@CG09_TMP]

PENUMBRA PHANTASM !!!! SHATTER THE TWILIGHT REVERIE, ARTISM!!!!!!

[@Artism_vpn]

@@CG09_TMP hi tmp !

[@CG09_TMP]

@@Artism_vpn hiiii !!!! i'm phantasming rn..... who up penumbra they phantasm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@CG09_TMP]

​@@Artism_vpn hey artism did you know that the Melody played by the Shreddage Guitar that starts at 0:22 uses the exact same rhythm as the beginning of Penumbra Phantasm That same rhythm is echoed by the String/Flute/Whatever Instruments from the same part (can be heard in the Right Ear, with headphones)

[@Artism_vpn]

@@CG09_TMP wait you're right holy smokes

[@zephclips-fr]

1:18 Penumbra Phantasm???

[@omeg5473]

If you didn't come here from Homestuck, you're lying.

[@autisticTreadmilleater]

i came here from a little rv pine

[@omeg5473]

@@autisticTreadmilleater your name says otherwise

[@Aresydatch]

I came here from Deltarune

[@potatofarmer9488]

I read homestuck, and im and ut/dr fan, just trying to listen to a remix THEN SUDDENLY

[@omeg5473]

@@potatofarmer9488 it's the curse

[@tm_k3628]

where bass?

[@8pierrot89]

I can't be the only one who sees this as wrong. I CAN'T. Even tossing out the whole situation with Buzinkai, this features far too much in Homestuck. _It's a Homestuck song._ Toby doesn't get to just take his entire discography with him when he engages in projects composed of people that aren't just him.

[@radiosilent0]

i agree with you to some extent. some part of me thinks that toby will go a long way to separate the penumbra phantasm in deltarune from homestuck because of that reason. and as for why the Doctor motif appears here, its probably just to hint at the song in a very obscure way? after all, toby created more than enough motifs for penumbra phantasm that he could use in deltarune, so Doctor probably only appears in hopes and dreams as a hint for penumbra and as a tribute to Doctor (i feel like it makes sense knowing how much that song means to toby)

[@luminalier1263]

I mean. He’s Toby Fox, he sort of can. Like, stepping aside whether he should, he was like the golden child of the music team, he literally made Undertale in Hussie’s basement, if he asked to use Penumbra *who the fuck would say no*? From an authority perspective Buzinkai’s passing really is the main block there, and tbh I think even that would be more Toby’s personal comfort with the matter than anything else.

[@8pierrot89]

​@radiosilent0 I still think it just doesn't work. Those notes will never not remind me of John getting up and becoming God Tier. You expect me to listen to Toby reuse those melodies and think about it in any other context than that?? The Deltarune Fandom is already metaphorically colonizing Homestuck music that doesn't belong to them as it is. I don't need The Famous Mr. Fox to do it as well.

[@8pierrot89]

​@@luminalier1263 The IP holders could tell him no. This song primarily features in [S: JOHN. RISE UP]/Savior of the Waking World. That's a key point in the comic, no matter how famous he is, he doesn't just get to break copyright law!