Horizon Zero Dawn: Solving The Mystery Drains The Appeal | Castle Super Beast 295 Clip

[@masterxl97]

As with most modern media, Horizon was a cool standalone experience that was forcibly dragged kicking and screaming into being a franchise that no one asked for.

[@robovinefilms1811]

It's quite strange how hard they push this franchise. I mean, it's got a cool aesthetic but I never thought Guerrilla Games was going to be "The Horizon developer" for two whole console generations.

[@Foostini]

@@robovinefilms1811 It's also just nothing special beyond the aesthetic. It's another AssCreed/Arkham combat styled open world game that there were a ton of at the time and like Pat says the combat wears thin the moment you "solve" an enemy but even then most of the time i've found you can just brute force it, especially the smaller ones, with melee.

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

You’re really underestimating how brainless consumers can be if you think no one asked for at least a sequel

[@jfells4838]

Horizon was always meant to be a franchise. That’s why they literally teased a sequel in the post credits scene of the first fucking game.

[@jfells4838]

@@robovinefilms1811I mean both horizon games were critical and commercial successes so 🤷‍♂️ obviously people like the world

[@C24U_]

This always brings to mind an interview by Norihiro Yagi, the mangaka of Claymore, had established that the source of the Yoma, the monsters that feed on humans that the Claymore fight against that are the antagonist for the whole series, were actually creatures that were brought over to their land from a different continent overseas. This was a pretty interesting reveal in the series and made readers speculate if Claymore would ever go across the sea or expand upon that lore. But Yagi never did, you never learned anything further about the greater world or what plagues it and when he was asked about this after the series ended he stated basically that its better to leave some things a mystery. You don't have to explain everything in a story and can leave it to the fans to create and fashion their own view of the world which will help them retain their interest in it.

[@jojonoa3590]

To expound on Pat's point about Horizon's gameplay being "solvable": in Monster Hunter or BotW, there are optimal strategies for dealing with combat encounters, but they may not apply unless the *situation* is optimal. The terrain might make it harder to execute your game plan, you may have side objectives or resource limitations that require you to switch up your strategy, or you could get flanked by another monster unexpectedly. In Horizon Zero Dawn, every combat encounter is very rigidly designed and there's very little variance, so once you've figured out the best strategy, every single fight plays out the exact same way and it gets incredibly monotonous after a while. Overall, every problem in HZD has exactly one solution, and it completely goes against the ethos of an open-world game.

[@zztzgza]

Every game based around combat being the interaction has one solution. Botw has one solution, monster hunter has one solution, hzd has one solution. You act as if nuance exists in botw or monster hunter because of the weather or another monster being in the field or arena, it doesn't. It may make the solution take a while but, you'll still hit the enemy with something and kill it.

[@TheDinohunter2000]

​​@@zztzgza Every story with conflict takes one solution. You solve the conflict and thats it.

[@Ghorda9]

@@zztzgza except the approach and execution varies a lot, in Elden Ring it's sometimes more optimal to look for a better path or/and sneak or run past certain enemies, when fighting multiple enemies target priority and location becomes important.

[@sonicboomers122]

So what you are saying is Weapon Durability has a point.

[@Ghorda9]

@@sonicboomers122 sometimes it takes adding one annoying mechanic to highlight others

[@StevenPlesz]

Pat perfectly put into words exactly why I absolutely HATED what they did with Doom Eternal's gameplay

[@omegaxtrigun]

Yep. I couldn’t stand it. Doom 2016 felt like a toybox where you could just have fun. DE felt like a tool belt where every non-trivial enemy was a lock and key and you either used the right key or blew one of your heavy weapons or else it would destroy the flow and your ammo.

[@marcellosilva9286]

Is there a mod that increases the ammo cap? That would solve a lot of the problems I have with that game's combat.

[@StevenPlesz]

@@marcellosilva9286 Yea there is, but the design issues are deeper than just ammo counts. It's a fundamental design change that I simply can't vibe with. Sure you can expend the effort to mod that all out, but at that point it's almost a different game entirely.

[@Gowkaiser96]

I got good not with "skill", but by realizing "Oh. Oh 13 rockets is more than 24/2=12 super shotgun blasts. oh. oh wasting ice and rockets on zombies is more health and armor than burning meathook. Oh, oh if my guns killed things good I couldn't drink them like a juice box." Just admit the systems are not challenge and it gets so much easier. Cyber manucbus can't have their guns broken? (so much for 'if you hate breaking guns you hate depth!), they have armor tempting me to waste a blood punch and dodges risking getting hit by an acid fart? What if I just shoot them from a distance and ignore the systems-wow this is great.

[@shadowrobot7708]

Woolie hearing pat describe a very specific method of killing a boss that you use every single time and kills the boss in 40 seconds: "So it's like monster hunter." ????? What

[@Kumo-s6f]

Keep in mind that Woolie has zero clue how any game is played at a high level save fighting games. I don't mean this as an indictment, it's just the way it is. No speedruns, no guides, no build videos, no PvP footage, even for non-fighting games that he is really into like Fromsoft stuff, to say nothing of the games he's not interested in at all. Honestly, you gotta respect that kind of bandwidth preservation game.

[@iller3]

MonHun still has character-action elements, this sounded more like fighting Ulcerated tree spirits .... in Kingsfield ... but minus the Difficulty

[@shadowrobot7708]

@@Kumo-s6f I know but he's played monster hunter before. Like enough to get multiple sets and try different weapons.

[@Kumo-s6f]

@@shadowrobot7708 Putting on a pair of boxing gloves and throwing a few punches doesn't mean you know how to fight well.

[@LessDevoid]

For somebody who has built their entire career around videogames, Woolie doesn't know much about videogames.

[@kmoney890]

Probably not truly related but the one case in which I vehemently disagree is with the Alpha Legion from 40k. The hoops and the backflips authors do to put the mystery in your face but never solve it or actually do anything with it beyond “ooooooo mysterious isn’t it~” is infuriating. The one thing worse than a bad reveal is getting blue balled while a whole bunch of nonsensical events are taking place just so you don’t have to actually do anything with the mystery. Just constantly show that the mystery totally exists and driving people to do crazy things

[@DoctorHomicide]

I think the difference lies in the fact that the Alpha legion aren’t the main focus of the setting and story. Yes it’s bad to not have a solvable mystery. However you can ignore their presence in the setting entirely. Where as with Horizion it focused too much of its time on the solving the mystery that when it was revealed it doesn’t have anything else to really grab you. At least not in the same vein as the mystery.

[@Foostini]

Yeah i think that's a case of them having just written themselves into a corner over time. Like the only real identity of the Legion now is the meme mystery and so what d'you really do with that so people take it seriously after seeing it so many times? And the answer they've taken is you don't do anything, keep running with it. Really a prime example of the Legion/Chapter favoritism.

[@ianbyrne465]

There was a really good Alpha Legion book recently that stated that since the AL was the only chaos legion who didn't retreat into the warp after the Heresy, and has been fighting the war for 10k years as a result. Which means that anyone who was there at the start is long since dead, and because the legion was so secretive, nobody in the Alpha Legion actually know anything about the Alpha Legion Like they all want to know why they're fighting, or any of their history or customs or even what their primarch(s) wanted, but that's just all lost to time and they're trying to pick up the pieces. There's a really funny aside when they lose a battle where one legionsire is upset but another one comforts him by saying, "They (the imperium) don't know that we lost. They're going to waste 100 years of time and resources trying to figure out why we were here and they'll never realize that we just didn't win this one." It was a great twist on the concept of the Alpha Legion, and really added some much-needed depth and tragedy to the legion that I love

[@anteante2332]

i would say the lost primarchs is one of those things as well , especially when different authors add "hints" when we all know Games Workshop wont ever answer it.

[@darthvaderreviews6926]

IMO the biggest distinction here is in regards to creative control. In a major franchise where creatives come and go, it's really easy for mysteries to become obnoxious. Someone else comes in with an answer that isn't satisfying, or a legion of authors refuse to answer it because they aren't confident they could, or a project gets delayed and the final answer is a mess, or etc, and it often becomes clear after a time that these creative decisions are being lead by cash, rather than a creative vision the audience is attempting to understand. _(DC Comics' Three Jokers is a great example of this going awry IMO)_ In a franchise where there's specific consistent creatives, you can be far more confident that there _is_ an answer, whether or not it will be explicitly revealed. Eg. People are still debating ASOAIF theories because even if they lack confidence GRRM will actually finish the plot, they can be confident he has consistent answers about his world. And the One Piece might be *the* most long-teased mystery _(that we know for a fact will eventually be revealed)_ in fiction, still enduringly popular

[@GingerDwarf]

Oh okay pat just feels the exact same way about me with Horizon. I felt the exact same thing in the sequel too. The stuff in the past is fascinating and genuinely well written but if I have to spend one more second with the Unga Bunga tribe trying to solve their turf war with the foogadabooga tribe stole their left jet engine of a jet.

[@ricardom3114]

Had the exact same feeling.The tribe stuff leaves like no imprint in my mind. Starting up HFW I felt so lost since i couldn't remember who tf Varl or Erend were. Ted Faro lives eternal, but the present day stuff just evaporates when i'm done.

[@Lakross101]

The worst part is that Aloy feels like she herself is unbothered by the current event stuff. Other characters are like "Aloy why are you trying to do this alone" and I don't have the option to say CUZ YOUR CAVEMAN PROBLEMS MEAN NOTHING, THERE IS A TECHNOLOGICAL CHASM BETWEEN OOGA BOOGA TRIBE AND MECHANICAL MANIFESTATION TRAVERSING PLANETS"

[@thepickles8833]

Producers of Twin Peaks: "Tell us who killed Laura Palmer??" David Lynch: "Don't.. do that.... you're killing the goose that lays golden eggs." REVEALS MYSTERY = Viewership plummets. Fans of Silent Hill: "What the hell is going on in this town??" Team Silent: "Here's a dog in a computer room pulling levers." NEVER ELABORATES = Fans speculate over a dead franchise for years.

[@RippahRooJizah]

To be fair, SH does more or less answer the question of what's going on (to a degree), but people miss some of the details (and SH1 missing an important lore file in the US version doesn't help), and then we get to the point where, when Downpour came out, the producer said both how he didn't care for the cult stuff *and* about how he was taking the series back to its roots by removing one of the core aspects of the games (the cult) because he liked SH2 the most.

[@DeadBoneJones]

Horizon is probably the single property in gaming that has been the most damaged by being a massive open world thing. The strongest thing it had going for it was that instantly compelling visual of “cave girl vs robo dinosaur”, and the illusion, the magic, doesn’t affect you the same way after you’ve wiped out the same enemies 20 times over.

[@darthskele]

That guy was saying he was wrong because Pat said "There is no mystery in the second game anymore", not because he had a different opinion.

[@mangalink25]

And then Pat said he didn't care because he wasn't interested.

[@darthskele]

@@mangalink25 I'm saying that Woolie and Pat were incorrect by thinking that the guy meant that he disagreed with his opinion. He was saying he was wrong about there not being *any* mystery in Horizon 2. But they dogpiled on him anyway because they were confused by what he really meant

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

@@darthskelethis is common here

[@Viewtifulyoshi]

@@darthskeleEh, the commenter should have clarified which statement they were referring to. Who types “You’re wrong” in Twitch chat and doesn’t expect blowback?

[@LessDevoid]

Pat's intentionally being an obstinate prick again.

[@cjokersl]

That thumbnail is amazing 😂

[@YetiCoolBrother]

Was gonna comment this lol

[@TheShinigami244]

The Horizon lego game convinced me that the franchise is an industry plant

[@altosforteaquax5083]

Democrat take

[@RazAnime]

of course it is; Sony decided that Horizon was going to be the next big megafranchise to rival all other megafranchises before the first game even came out and then they kept acting like it even though it had barely any fans. Sales number sure, but fans? nah man

[@altosforteaquax5083]

@RazAnime bait heavy comment section today.

[@YamashitaTsubasa]

Aloy remains the only guest character in Genshin Impact, on the PlayStation version only

[@Vanity0666]

It sells in china

[@jjrambles683]

The way Pat talks about the reveal and the story having two halves reminds me of Twin Peaks

[@RunningBlade2184]

True, but the difference between horizon and twin peaks is that the interesting thing about horizon’s story was figuring out what was going on. The mystery of who killed Laura Palmer wasn’t that for twin peaks, it was important and drove the plot forward but it was more of an excuse to get you into this strange world and its characters. The early Laura Palmer reveal was an unfortunate network mandate they were forced to follow.

[@sunkeyavad6528]

2:20 I think that's primarily the games wanting to be long problem, because they aim for a high hour score and then they dilute the game with side content. There are so many games that would be better if some content were just cut and you'd get just the better stuff start to finish.

[@sdgamer1860]

Dude, side missions in Ghost of Tsushima unlocked new gear and skills for you like the Long Bow that the Tengu who was the boss fight for that level, was telling you NOT to grab

[@TheSergio1021]

I think people are forgetting that Pat did more than solve the mystery, he solved every encounter. By doing everything it drained him of any motivation to do anything else with Horizon which is understandable. I'm just not sure how that would affect the sequel, unless if its just as simple as the setting and characters/protagonist simply arent interesting enough to warrant a sequel.

[@shadowreaverrising1753]

The sequel has much improved gameplay and more. More everything to the point I had to beat it because I refused to spend so much time in the game it felt like I lived there.

[@Kalarchis]

Me, super in love with and interested in Horizon's tribal politics and setting beyond the twist - *quietly slips back into corner*

[@MrSandMan961]

Is the tribal politics ever anything more interesting than "there's an evil tribe over there go murder them all, Alloy."? Like, if there were New Vegas styled bs going on everywhere that'd be one thing but I truly don't think they've got anything half as interesting going on as Ceaser's Legion vs The NCR and Mr. House.

[@Kalarchis]

​@MrSandMan961 in a lore-sense yes, in a gameplay-sense no. The second game has a ton more nuance, both within and between the tribes, there's a big "civil war" happening in one of the big tribes, but nothing that does much for gameplay. Like there are roaming patrols of the rebel faction but they're not capturing camps or doing anything beyond scripted stuff

[@Tyrfing42]

When it comes to Zero Dawn vs. Forbidden West, my opinion is that Horizon 1 has a stronger beginning and end, while Horizon 2 has a stronger middle. This is because the middle section of Forbidden West is all about returning our past world to the people of the post apocalypse. Additionally, if Pat were able to push through the Frozen Wilds DLC (which I'll agree is a bit of a slog at first after already trekking through the main game's open world) I think there's something there that could interest him in the form of a character from the past. Both of these points involve AI that have endured through time, which is where I think Horizon 3 could justify its existence as another installment. The plot they've set up involves an amalgamation of AI, and I see a solution here that would fit well as the payoff to something they established in the first game that would also give us a lot of new interesting characters to interact with. I'm full prepared for the eventually that what I get won't ever be what I'm imagining in my head though.

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

4:38 Pat getting weird due to not getting what that guy meant

[@ShotgunGabe]

oh jeez robot man is such a good idea the symbolism that it might imply after fighting prehistoric animals for the whole game it would be a nice sequel hook. man they whould have let woolie cook

[@MajoraZ]

My issue with Horizon as somebody who really dug the leaked concept art from way back but never felt compelled to play it when it released is the tone and writing in trailers. The concept art had this super atmospheric vibe and a surreal contrast of seeing giant robo dinosaurs in natural landscapes. Something like that, but with Tokyo Jungle, Metroid Prime, Shadow of the Colossus etc style atmosphere and narrative minimalism I feel like would be super cool. But every trailer just has a lot of dialog from Aloy and human characters talking and interacting (and not in a interesting way) and at least in those + the gameplay showcases, it really makes it feel more generic then I feel like the premise would otherwise be.

[@sator_project]

the problem is they made robot dinosaurs, and you don't play as a robot dinosaur

[@Mr.Faust3]

Missed opportunity could be mecha godzilla simulator but they wanna make generic open world game

[@RippahRooJizah]

@@Mr.Faust3 Hey, hunting robot dinos was what got me interested.

[@Mr.Faust3]

@@RippahRooJizah monster hunter but with robot dinosaurs

[@7U57HTJRYGHG]

i wanted monster hunter from it but i dont get that so fuck it

[@iller3]

China's bout to fix this oversight by basically making them mounts ... watch it do 3x the numbers this game is doing

[@GojiEm]

That moment when the Lego version of the game is more appealing to me than the actual game it's based on.

[@AncelDeLambert]

the Lego game being SHORT is so many points in its favor

[@shadowreaverrising1753]

Not at all.

[@JesseAnderson]

I still can't believe they had this cool setting and the best they could do for a final boss was an enemy gauntlet and a higher hp version of an easy enemy type.

[@r.r.bigman774]

It being a AAA western game, I’m surprised it wasn’t just waves of mooks followed by the main villain dying in a cutscene.

[@MajorCrasher]

I really enjoyed the actual tribal politics stories and what not past the mystery. But that's more of a personal taste thing. I really need to get back to playing the sequel. It came out st the worst time possible and I ended up putting it down for something else. But I'm done with metaphor now so i got nothing to play for a while.

[@Gatherway]

Pat summed up my experience with the game perfectly. In my case, it really is remarkable because normally, open-world games are like kryptonite for me. I can only think of two off the top of my head that I've ever played through to completion, which are Assassin's Creed 1 and Horizon Zero Dawn, and both times it was because I was complete enthralled with the overarching "mystery". Once that's done, all you're left with is repetitive gameplay that had become incredibly dull after the first several hours.

[@altosforteaquax5083]

If that's the case you should have quit and watched the cutscenes on KZbin. Save yourself the trouble.

[@brian78721]

I platted the game and got into huge arguments with people because i just did not care about the game. Into a moment i argued with a friend and he goes how could you not like it its such a good game. And i asked him whats the protagonists name and he froze couldnt even answer and we laughed for an hour.

[@abraaomitichon7868]

Alloy... I mean, I only played for 30 minutes back when it came out on ps plus and I rember that.

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

He did not remember Alloy?

[@AncelDeLambert]

lol nice. Yep, I beat it and the dlc (dlc first) and I just don't think it's a very good game once you factor in how uselessly huge it is and how much of your time it wastes

[@AncelDeLambert]

@@fernandozavaletabustos205 but that's just it, you guys have it wrong too. It's "Aloy". One L, long enunciated A.

[@JJJJJJJJJAAAAAA]

Yeah I havent played hzd and I know aloy

[@Artista_Frustrado]

Horizon Zero Dawn's lore lives rent free in my head... i have no idea what happens in Forbidden West

[@dralakba-dusk31]

ill never forget how i steamrolled HZD with only Wire Traps. truly the answer to every encounter (stealth sections included) 😅

[@mekboy7403]

I like the idea of all these tribal civilizations in a world of robot animals and how different most of the tribes are but the actual tribal politics we see in the game was boring as hell to me.

[@sirlenemodesto2665]

How many Horizon games will it take for us to be able to combo a robot dino using another T-rex dino? Can that be done already? Does Ali have any other weapons than the bow?

[@venomfuryx3250]

Yes she does.

[@dralakba-dusk31]

she has the peak wire traps that go kaboom

[@sirlenemodesto2665]

@@venomfuryx3250 which question does that answer? Is it the T-rex one? Please tell me it's that one.

[@treefingers6572]

Aloy* has a literal arsenal of weapons and trap-setting gear other than the bow. The fun of the combat and gameplay against the machines is learning their weakness and behavior, setting up traps and tripwires, and exploiting that weakness. You can use a gun that shoots ropes at them and tethers the other end to the ground to hold them in place and tip them over if you shoot enough of them. She also has a big fancy stick that she can whack them with or do a critical strike while they're down. You also have multiple types of bows, like the fast-firing but weaker warrior bow, good for building up elemental status effects, the precision bow (or sharpshooter i can't remember) that fires far, hard, and precise, and the hunter bow, which is the in-between all-rounder bow. Deciding which weapon to use in certain scenarios is the fun of it, and definitely makes each machine encounter feel more dynamic than just shooting them with a single bow. Also different ammo types like tear arrows that tear parts off more easily, and of course all the elemental types. Trying to take down a Thunderjaw (the robot t rex) with just the hunter bow or precision bow, while possible, maybe, is not advised, because you'll be doing that shit for over an hour. As Pat described, there's definitely an optimal process to killing each machine, and learning that process by scanning them, deciding which part to focus on, and experimenting with it is the most fun thing the game introduced. Forbidden West adds some interesting ideas, specifically a disk launcher that you can use to hurl serrated spinning disks into them to shred parts off, and position yourself to catch them when they fly back so you conserve ammo. There's also a sort of explosive spike launcher. You line up the shot, impale them with it, and detonate it, dealing good explosive damage... and that's actually the only ones I remember, Forbidden West just can't keep my attention like Zero Dawn did.

[@sirlenemodesto2665]

@@treefingers6572 So the combat never goes into melee besides the mighty stick she has? And they have made like 3 of these games? I dunno if shooting a enemy from really far away can keep being fun for so many hours.

[@solomon9655]

Horizon is a great case for how Fromsoft tackles story-telling. Some believe From’s style to be lazy but for everyone else the mystery is half the fun. It’s fun having an excuse to talk about the thing you like. Horizon’s story is over-explained so there’s very little to talk about. Imagine if by the end of Dark Souls 1 there were no questions left. Not saying Horizon’s story should have been Fromsoft-style I’m just pointing out why From’s approach has been so successful.

[@everforward5561]

I've never played a Fromsoft game for lore, and without guys like Vaati around, to this day I wouldn't understand it. I ain't combing through all that shit.

[@darthskele]

@@everforward5561 👍

[@zztzgza]

If you believe what you wrote, that's fine, don't act like every game would be better if they were as ambiguous as a fromsoft Souls game. People would be pissed-off if hzd didn't give people a decent story with a great plot-twist.

[@ramjet94]

" in the next game there is no second mystery" I know Pat has a habit of always being wrong, but I have to admit that this one really takes the cake because there is literally a new mystery in the second game, this is what happens when you only engage with the setting, but you refuse to engage with the story because I on ironically, enjoy the story of horizon zero Dawn and learning all the fucked up shit that happened as a result of the state of the world, the future was in and all the characters response to the apocalypse.

[@PanickedPike]

Extra crazy when you consider that the new mystery in Horizon 2 is literally "Some people made it off planet, and they're fucking God aliens now with Elon Musk brains, how the fuck do we deal with that?" lol

[@MrSandMan961]

There's no mystery that can be put on the box. They didn't give us a mystery in any trailers, so there functionally isn't one because it's not being used as the hook to draw people in.

[@stevelopez6957]

I will say though the mystery of the next game really does suck in the grand scheme of things, there’s not much of a draw to it, and funnily enough the reverse becomes the case where the human politics of the sequel is vastly more interesting than the main story, I genuinely was shocked how little I cared about the villains but the whole war story of guilt drew me in

[@PanickedPike]

@@MrSandMan961 You're right. There's nothing mysterious at all about the entirely new region called "Forbidden" that makes up the titular subtitle. I'm definitely not interested in that blood red vine constricting around that palm tree that cuts a line through sand with what appears to be the ruined remains of the Golden Gate Bridge in the background. Absolutely no mystery or hook to be had in sight.

[@biggiewiggie5557]

​@@PanickedPike Ngl, that kind of a reveal is a huge turnoff for someone on the outside looking in. "So, my villains are idiots with a shitton of money?" isn't the draw you think it is when a lot of people have to deal with that on the daily. I know the "muh escapism" thing is overdone and kinda bullshit since I don't know how well they execute it, but that in particular rubs me the wrong way, personally speaking.

[@alexcoffey8804]

As a Horizon fan: I genuinely love the world and the gameplay more than the mystery. The mystery was pretty cool, but I play the game to fight robot dinosaurs with a bow.

[@CrocvsGator]

So, on Pat's note about combat being solved, he also said he didn't play the dlc. Well I recently did. Yeah, Frozen Wilds tries to "fix this" by adding in more and more enemies, and making enemies take way more damage. Also the tethers don't work on the new enemies. Which yeah, I don't feel like was the way to have balanced stuff.

[@Artista_Frustrado]

also since Woolie asked, the combat system in that game s not made for a Vargil at all. Before the final boss you do fight a Man Boss

[@KeroKaminaX]

I honestly -disagree- don’t fully agree, the aesthetic of tribal people in a post apocalyptic setting with robot animals is still really appealing for me

[@Foostini]

Yeah but think about the fact that you're talking about the aesthetic and nothing else. Pat's main point is the actual tribal parts of the setting itself beyond the mystery are uninteresting, i also find the aesthetic super appealing like you do but i had less than zero interest in the tribes when the mysterious tech ruins and giant robot dinosaurs played themselves out.

[@AncelDeLambert]

It's paper thin, though.

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

For me too!

[@Dracobyte]

Yup!

[@B3nny56]

..... If someone likes the aesthetic of the tribal people in a post-apocalyptic setting with robot animals; and you do too - that's "agreeing" It's the tribal politics and shenanigans of this world that's boring as shit

[@Levitz9]

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone criticize Horizon Zero Dawn without touching upon Aloy as a character or her design. HZD might be less than the sum of its parts, but its a game whose discussion has been poisoned because of people being mad about the wimminz in the gamez. The sad part: Pat has some really damn good points about HZD.

[@AntiRivet]

I'm literally about ready to drop Horizon: Forbidden West for the second time. The first time was for Elden Ring. The second time is just because I have never cared less about a story or a group of NPCs in a game, ever.

[@rjdk24]

then return it to gamestop for $5

[@darthvaderreviews6926]

Moderate midgameish spoilers for Forbidden West below: My issue with taking the plot seriously is that it outright becomes Captain Planet. You have the Planeteers and Gaia and everything, it completely undermines the other aspects of the story and worldbuilding that I do like because it all links back to a core plot I can't take seriously at all. None of that is as serious as the open world design problems that make both Horizon games a chore to play, but it's still not great

[@omegaxtrigun]

I couldn’t make it past like 10 hours of HZD. The big driving force for me was the question of how Aloy is connected to the technology and how she can interact with it but nobody else can and how we got robot dinosaurs. They not only explain both of those things within the starting area, but they also blow the twist of the true identity of what her people worship. Like, literally all the interesting parts of the story are just done with that quick. And all your left with is “There’s this other tribe that likes the evil machines and their corruption. Go stop them from doing generic bad guy corruption stuff.” That and melee being nonexistent beyond just being a “get off me” tool so you can run away and shoot more, felt awful. They portrayed Aloy as this all around survivor and warrior when in reality she plays more like a pure ranged archer and that’s it. That game barely had enough substance to justify one game let alone any sequels.

[@nightmareeyes2083]

Its strange to hear this opinion as someone who is a big fan of the Horizon games. When Pat says he doesn't care for the tribes and the cultural disputes, he's right to say that because it's not a draw for him. Personally for me, I LOVE hearing how the tribes interact with the post apocalypse of the world, the machines, see how they use the parts and how they form history and culture around what remained to reflect that of real world societies. That is my bread and butter. The way I play horizon is I consumed as much main story as I can, when I hit a wall I go to only the side quests I'm interested in. If there's a collectable nearby I will go get it, only if its nearby, and solely if its some interesting piece of lore. Which sounds like the polar opposite of how Pat played it.

[@pickledparsleyparty]

I've never agreed with Pat harder than I am, right now. Horizon's sci fi past is the cool part. It's awesome, even. Create a system that's supposed to restart HUMAN life according to specific parameters. Obviously one of that system's subsystems is the one that erases failed attempts for the sake of redo. Everything in the present is indeed boring and often sort of cringe, if I'm being honest. Should have taken a dive into that "creating with an end goal in mind invariable needs destruction/redo cycles to work." It's like a noble goal of preserving humanity AS IT IS has this terrible implication that we don't consider when we're panicking to save ourselves.

[@alexcoffey8804]

13:40 That's the final boss in the sequel. No joke.

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

I think for better or worse, Horizon series is just "comfort sci-fi". While it may not be for everyone, you can not deny its appeal or popularity. Redarfing its popularity, it would be like saying "FIFA / EA FC has a fake or plant IP because I never met someone who likes it".

[@NameIsDoc]

Terrible example. Even fifa fans hate fifa. The only reason it exists is because idiots buy it to represent their team.

[@ExaltedUriel]

We didn't get a Lego FIFA game or Ronaldo as the ONLY guest character in Genshin Impact though.

[@mangalink25]

What does "Redarfing" mean?

[@NameIsDoc]

@@mangalink25 common mistype of "regarding"

[@mangalink25]

@NameIsDoc Ah I see. I thought it might have been some new slang word.

[@Broomer52]

Their wasn't even much of a mystery to solve. They lay out much of what happens in the first game and you're free to fill in the blanks. Man creates self replicating robot, they go rogue, mankind dies, mankind gets remade, fight to prevent Robo Satan from reviving. The Sequel made mountains out of mole hills and answered questions no on asked

[@zztzgza]

They changed into a color/bat from Sonic? Rogue not rouge lol

[@kuratajutsu]

There definitely was mystery in the first game and it's exactly as Pat explained in the clip. Yes, we know mankind from many years ago died, we can guess it was some Terminator-esque reason, and the overarching plot is that we have to stop the evil robots from reviving. But "how did we get there?" Why is it if humanity "lost" some time in the distant past is current humanity Aborigines that live side by side with robot animals like its normal? Why is shit hitting the fan now? Why the F is Aloy the main character? I played the game with those overarching questions until you hit the climax of the story. And as Pat puts it: "Fuck Ted Faro."

[@Broomer52]

@@kuratajutsu I never said there wasn’t mystery in the first game. I said that their were no questions left to ask after it ended

[@victorpurificacao2855]

The DLC is pretty good, but I have the same sentiment for the sequel, remake and Lego version. Great game, very good DLC, but its an one and done.

[@discoinferno701]

i feel like the only person who does not care if a mystery gets solved or unsolved in media whatever suits the story do not care i understand if it ruins a stories/settings appeal but it is what it is i think things can be over explaining and not everything needs explaining but that is my take about this stuff

[@shadowreaverrising1753]

It's how they make you work for it that is the issue. For me It carried me through the game and I enjoyed it.

[@mangalink25]

Please learn to use punctuation.

[@saintcircus]

I really really really liked Forbidden West. I liked it more than Zero Dawn in many ways. But there was one thing about it that just took me right the fuck out which was that it made me annoyingly aware of the fact that they had apparently crafted a world in which both ginger people and twins had been totally eugeniced out of existence. The way people react to Beta just EXISTING makes it clear that by some weird genetic twist, twins had somehow been totally removed from existence in this world. Which retroactively made me remember how people reacted to Alloy having red hair with the same cartoonish incredulity. Made me realise. Hey. Wait.

[@RubyGalaxyYT]

from the title: I disagree

[@Jank_Hill]

Horizon was a good game. It was inoffensive. It is not mega-franchise material. The only reason Sony is pushing it so hard is because one of the former devs is now a higher up in the company.

[@megamike15]

pat is me when i finished the batman it was an hour to long and by the time it was over i'm like " i don't care about this uiniverse anymore."

[@pl4y4hpl4ys]

I agree the first game is better than the sequel but for different reasons. And sure the DLC is more "present time" stuff but the weapons are worth it lol

[@prog00017]

Ah yes, the JJ Abrams problem.

[@TheAspiringWriter]

No matter how many times I try. I CAN'T bring myself to play this game beyond 2-3 hours. Sometimes less. It doesn't capture me at all and I don't know why. I just can't be bothered to play any more of it.

[@shadowreaverrising1753]

Guerilla games should have really made that horizon machine war multiplayer game and then Forbidden West.

[@LightningPuppet]

The dlc is the best part

[@Biodeamon]

the scientific conundrum...

[@TrojanGamer10]

Yeah Hulst and Sony say "No...Moooore Horizon"

[@megamike15]

tthis also happend with vielgaurd. i was fine with it being the endd of the sseries i can ppretty much ignroe that whole secret ending scene about the shadow organization pulling the strings.

[@Howl9000]

As far as Pat's opinion on Horizon's story is concerned, that's fine, it's his opinion. If the mystery is everything you cared about & you're not interested in anything else than yeah, I understand why he, or anyone else would drop it. For me & given the sales numbers of FW most other players that wasn’t everything we cared about, I was genuinely invested in the characters & the story beyond just the mystery of how we got here. & as far as the gameplay I wouldn’t agree on it being "solution based". Yes there are clearly strong strategies to use against certain machines but just like MH the game rewards you for using everything at your disposal to win in creative ways, stripping certain parts off a machine may make it seemingly weaker but machines will adapt to how you fight them, EG taking out their long range options will cause them to charge you & become extremely deadly up close. Also just as a side note if you think Horizon is a plant, maybe go outside & actually touch a plant. A game that devs wanted to make which then sold in the tens of millions is not a plant just because you don't like it.

[@darthvaderreviews6926]

For me, the mystery wasn't really a big issue- If they had never explained it, I would've been willing to just take robot dinosaurs at face value lol. The way they _revealed_ the mystery is what was excellent, I think the tower climb in HZD is the lynchpin of the whole experience that made people remember it fondly. And at least from my impression, the dedicated Horizon community is primarily in it for the story, not gameplay. That gameplay is what's more of an obstacle for me. I've finished both games and while many aspects of it are serviceable, they get very tiresome very fast, even though I usually love games in the genre. _(and games with similar "ubisoft formula" issues on Playstation usually get by because their combat is really fun)_ I think my biggest issue with Horizon's combat is how Aloy responds to attacking robosaurs. Monster Hunter's depth when responding to attacks is _huge_ as comparison. Every weapon has ideal combos that need to be altered/interrupted on the fly to predict and respond to monsters. You need to respond in a way that ideally doesn't disrupt your positioning and combat flow too much while keeping you safe. Superman diving allows you to be hyper safe at the cost of all of your DPS potential, but you have other options like evading, blocking, counters, or mobility depending on weapontype, that will work against some attacks but not others, and will all put you in a much better position for damage uptime. Meanwhile Aloy just has a dodgeroll, and using it doesn't really interact/interfere with her attacks much, so how you respond and adapt to enemy attack patterns feels relatively samey, she kinda just rolls around like a goober in every fight. _(note; before people bring up fromsoft, those games still encourage you to find ways to evade attacks without rolling, that's why backstabs exist!)_ Eg. In Horizon 3, I would love the ability to use her spear in a defensive stance, to have a charging bot impale itself against then throw it away. Aloy REALLY lacks a counter move in her arsenal like that, she needs more defensive agency

[@finalflash98]

I kinda relate to pat. I borrowed the game from someone just to not play it for a while and then it became free on ps plus to own. I was in a place where I had nothing much to do and I decided to finally play this game. its so tedious. getting all the way to the end and getting side tracked with collectable bullshit was not fun. at least with ghost of tsushima the setting and world feels nice to explore even though it suffers from ubisoft "openworld" problems. lance reddick was cool in this, i pretty much never want to play another horizon game. that game did it for me. i am done with ubisoft type open worlds and horizon was the straw that broke the camels back.

[@hipiticlivi7400]

4:00 - Pat "The second game does more of that but there is no second mystery" Chat - "You are wrong, there is a second mystery." Pat - "But I dont care..." 4:50 Woolie sarcasticlaly "Oh, you are wrong, your opinion is incorrect" I dont know how people can put up with the disrespect and keep subscribing and using chat. Crazy.

[@samuelcorbett8167]

Why are you here?

[@DeRedBaronCT]

Feels like you have an odd idea of what it's like to watch stuff online and it is genuinely weird that you'd use the word "disrespect" (especially when it's usually chat that is disrespectful)

[@randominternetsurfersurfin7595]

Who asked you to even be here? The door is is this way 👉

[@altosforteaquax5083]

Wow nobody can answer this guy's question accurately. Truly a Pat crowd in here.

[@Foostini]

Truly so disrespected, poor woe is that chatter, what abominable streamers they are

[@ricardom3114]

Pat's hyperbolic as always, but i do gotta agree that every time i finish a horizon game or DLC i go, "I CAN'T do that again." The games are way too samey, and need a few years between playthroughs.

[@triplesocks]

Reminds me of Pillars of Eternity, first one is super interesting but by the end the setting is completely demystified, and the 2nd game really suffered for that.

[@AverageAspie]

Let's not pretend that relying on a toolbox for your video game, even if a narrative one as your main hand, is actually a sin for alluring the player to play your video game in an attention-seeking market. As if games never used any loop of play to get a reward for something, which is always discussed at the table when conceptualizing a game. Monster Hunter already tested its formula for over a decade before Horizon, and took a size of the market for monster hunting play. Its loop is a grind that pushes for cooperation between players, fighting the same enemy with phases and mechanical patterns. And its narrative themes explore collective unity against natural adversity. Many copies of it were released by Sony and achieved subpar sales; nobody remembered Freedom Wars until now. And so with hindsight on Guerrilla Devs, trying to make a new IP out of 40 different ideas, distancing themselves from the sweatshop grind of Killzone, of making a “Halo killer." Zero Dawn chose inspirations that would make it more appealing to market: Assassin's Creed, Mass Effect, Monster Hunter, and even the Witcher. Zero Dawn's loop for rewards was combat, where striking certain parts removes or changes the phases, mechanical patterns, or loot drops of the encounter, exploration for mystery and world building. While Forbidden West went for combat, with more mobility and stamina skills, exploration for just world building, and a more Mass Effect character drama(forming your team of NPCs). Some players argue that the sequel is worse BECAUSE there was no mystery to entice people to keep playing, which boiled down to separating the twists between several old-world story dungeons, two camps, and then a mob machine encounter for the finale, with collectibles in between to satirize or hint more of what happened. But there is something self-aware and honest in them really trying with the world building and its mystery to justify its existence, upholding its purpose of play, to have the player be just as memetic as Aloy, in how dire they want to learn more. It's almost handled too well. I played through Breath of the Wild over Horizon in 2017 for over 200 hours, completing it on normal and master mode and got burnt out so incredibly hard. A year before Forbidden West, I picked up Horizon and found more meaning and fun in my 40 hours to completion(for 20 dollars) than I did with BOTW's void of a sandbox that told me to find the same in it for longer. Zero Dawn is so hopepunk that I don't think you'd get the same feeling if done by the same narrative writer, but outside the "egalitarian" Netherlands(where he moved to when writing for Zero Dawn). I don't believe it would even have been green-lit for television or film. The older I get, the more jaded I am with the current world and how we're speeding to the old world's sad wail of an existence. And just like with the modern world, Horizon's world of miscommunication, its absence of knowledge, dividing of cultures through disagreement, is at the fault of people beyond us of economic, social, and power. And Forbidden West twists the knife harder, even if given a miracle in Zero Dawn, the literal ghouls of the old world and its mistakes are still alive to make things worse for us. And people like Aloy and her companions seek to unify and fight back against the upcoming maelstrom. And so its narrative themes of understanding, seeking knowledge, and tribal unity beyond banners are memetic to its gameplay. Go clean out those bandit camps, find those datapoints of people's lives that were nearly forgotten, hunt and grind for machines to upgrade for the tougher ones ahead(or to be ready for New Game+). All this for just around 40 hours of gameplay for cheap. Though I fell into the BOTW habit of playing through Forbidden West for over 100 hours this time, but I had way more fun in that and Zero Dawn. I think I summed up my feelings. I think there is more fair criticism to have for Zero Dawn. The quality-of-life changes to Forbidden West make it really hollow and constrictive to play(loot management, limited climbing, stilted character animations during dialogue, etc.). Things that really pull the veil back once the story and side quests are over and make me go, "dang, this hasn't aged well. I'd rather be playing the sequel on NG+."

[@StardustSynchron]

I can’t remember the first Horizon because I played that on release and I think I enjoyed it. I tried the second game and was just bored, had to drop it. Idk what it is about the game but I just wasn’t having fun when I tried the sequel

[@GingerDwarf]

Crazy, I did the same thing with the horizon dlc.

[@TCRP117]

That is definitely one Pat-ass take on a video game.

[@thunderphoenix440]

"Laguna is not on the box" YES HE IS! CHOKE ON THOSE WORDS! *crawls into the corner to pout*

[@thunderphoenix440]

SHIT WAIT NO HE'S NOT IT WAS SEIFER! *crawls into opposite corner to pout harder*

[@catantcha99]

I have been playing through ff8 and don't really understand the hatred for squall and why people love Laguna so much when he just kind of seems like a generic shounen protagonist

[@Dead__Space]

​@@catantcha99From what I've seen from people usually boils down to Squall being an edgy, loner, unfun, and generally rude protagonist compared to the wackier portrayal of Cloud from the previous game, with Laguna bringing more of the goofy qualities back.

[@catantcha99]

@@Dead__Space well the whole point of squall's character arc is him growing out of that mindset from what I played which is most of the way through disc 3 of the game

[@madwarrior1930]

You're wrong, Pat.

[@In-The-Zone]

Woolie has to play Wilds when it comes out, Long Sword has Judgment Cuts now

[@KenBladehart]

>God Eater 3 let you have Judgement Cuts on a rocket powered hammer

[@jimbob1862]

​@@KenBladehartWasn't expecting God Eater 3 rep here I'm still devastated the team moved onto Code Vein after 3, CV isn't bad but it ain't God Eater

[@KenBladehart]

@@jimbob1862 Uhh, you know there are different devs, right? God Eater 3 made by Marvelous (Senran Kagura devs) Code Vein made by Shift (the original devs)

[@KenBladehart]

@@jimbob1862 Uhh, you know the two games were made by different devs? God Eater 3 was made by Marvelous Code Vein was made by Shift

[@jimbob1862]

@@KenBladehart They are? I always assumed it was the same dev considering they were connected

[@TobiStarGaming]

If you end the video at 1:36 its the funniest video ever.

[@MAJR172]

10:11 Hot take, Eternal's DLC kinda killed the game for me cause of this. Instead of fighting my way I had to switch to every single gun/mod and fight only the way the game would allow me to. Always compared to that old Weaver Gif of FNaF 4/20 mode, at that point, it's just a chore.

[@billbillson6779]

I WAS interested in learning the remaining mysteries still left in HZD. Like what was the source of that signal that somehow took over GAIA's sub-programs and had them go rogue? Where are they now? Could it be possible to recover the archives? What's Sylens going to do with HADES? And then HFW comes out and what the hell are these immortal space humans and what the hell is "grr I'm a ball of evil humanity" Nemesis it's just.....so stupid it burned up any interest I had in continuing. Feels like a huge step in the wrong direction and if the future in the timeline is a dud and the past has already been explained, there's nowhere else to go.

[@Benzodrewd]

I’m not saying there’s no mystery in the second game but I am saying it shouldn’t be comparable to fucking Naruto

[@j.mn.a509]

Another point i see with Horizon is that there is SO much ways every story aspect besides the main hook could have evolved into something way more interesting but it doesnt at all because fuck you keep the status quo, be that with mechanical monsters, political "conflicts" that arent really that big to begin with, or personal growth. and if you pay attention to it every plot point can be deducted in the first quarter of the game, not that that is a bad thing the problem is that most of them are too simple or too boring, gameplay was pretty fun but it got boring by the dlc.

[@carl8790]

I'm genuinely curious on how well the sequel did in term of sales. HZD did very well, probably the best selling game for guerrilla. For me, the game hasn't done much to attract my interest. Still love what guerrilla is doing on the decima engine, arguably the best game engine in the industry. Can't wait to see more of it in DS2.

[@shadowreaverrising1753]

Sylens already figured out the zero dawn project reset AI went nuts and was working to build up the shadow carja to stop it. In forbidden West he was already on a different more immediate problem that aloy wasn't aware of yet. He's so underrated.

[@TheTolnoc]

People think gamers hate the sequel because they made the main character fat. In reality, it's just completely unnecessary.

[@CNellyu]

Yeah, Horizon needs to have better combat if I’m ever going to give the next one a shot. Plus, let me ride all the big machines and actually use their weapons. Also, let me make and upgrade a machine companion

[@denstruction]

wait shouldnt these be csb 296 clips not 295?

[@RicochetForce]

There's definitely two things I want to note here: 1. If your interest to continue playing any game evaporates once the storytelling is done and the mystery is resolved you didn't actually like the game. I've had that same experience with many games (overwhelmingly walking sims and most survival horror games) and it was because the gameplay was a delivery vehicle for the story. The story was the source of the entertainment, not the gameplay which I found rote or one note. It's probably why I dislike most horror movies, once the mystery is solved or too much is explained the entire appeal of the genre dies. Meanwhile games where the gameplay is the core hook and well developed I can enjoy even if the cool story is over. A lot of Capcom games are like this. Speaking of Capcom... 2. Monster Hunter's hunts are ABSOLUTELY like Horizon, despite Pat claiming otherwise, after a certain point. They can 100% be solved to the point that you can do mechanical A-B-C things for speed runs, bait out the same 2-3 moves, and know exactly where to hit and what to hit them with. In fighting games once you learn your character's kit well enough the goal is to solve each matchup well enough that you're confident in your knowledge of their moves and how yours interact with them in X scenario. From there it's just execution. But that's still fucking fun. You're still smashing a dumbass Tigrex in his big dumb head with a giant hammer. You're still ripping a Thunderjaw apart with its own weapon. You're still the protector of the Russian skies pile driving a 4'11" Mexican woman into the ground after she told you about her friend Talim. Pat's take rings a little cynical to me.

[@altosforteaquax5083]

Yeah. Total agree with all points. Was going to comment something similar myself.

[@IstasPumaNevada]

In regards to 1: The story is part of the game. Sometimes it's a bigger part than others. Sometimes it's told better than others or better integrated into the game than others. If you finish the story and feel done with the game, that doesn't necessarily mean you didn't like the game. Not every game needs to be infinitely replayable. There are story-based games I've only played once, that I really enjoyed, that I'll probably never play again and still think of them fondly. Often because the story was good, and the story was the point of the game.

[@NinjaRed5000]

"Pats takes are a little cynical to me" First time?

[@PrincessNine]

Unfortunately I feel that's pat in general. I've warmed up to him over the years because I've learned how much more amenable he is on stuff despite hyperbole. While growing sour to wooly due to his aggressively stubborn habits that somehow makes him the worst of the 2 to me now when it was always the opposite. But despite that shift I'm consistently reminded that there always was a greater issue I had with pats approach to stuff and that's clear in these instances where I'm stuck wondering "did you actually get it or did you loudly claim you got it and never interrogated that thought ever again?" I find it hard to see pats issue because once Aloy figures everything out, suddenly the politics of her world are fucking stupid and she knows that's the factual truth. We are supposed to be on the same page as her so when pats like "I don't personally give a shit about this stuff" I'm like "did ou forget neither does aloy?" Her attitude is to fix the stupid happening around her. You create relationships through this and it's clearly a journey where you care more about the people around you then the tribal laws they abide. Yet apparently we're having this weirdly clinical discussion on Writing.

[@NinjaRed5000]

@PrincessNine exactly. From the moment Aloy leaves her mountain she's already calling out the tribalism and politics for being dumb and getting in the way. It makes her endearing.

[@Dasaltwarrior]

Well that thumbnail isn't a good sign

[@MotTulpa]

Honestly, Pat has almost the exact same thoughts I did. I did okay the DLC, however. (It's fine, nothing special.) Once I learned everything about the Pre Apocalypse, and that story is closed, I lost all interest. I watched videos on the sequel and said "that's enough. I don't need to drop 60 dollars on this."

[@shadowreaverrising1753]

To find out the mystery you really have to scrub horizon. The ten was pretty good in forbidden West. Aloy and sylens both having the same goals with opposing methodology is great. I love the concept of people not understanding the larger threat to the planet. It's the environmental activist perception of their lives. Everyone engaged in their petty power play when bigger things are happening. Forbidden West undermines the impact of zero dawn. I love the politics 101 of forbidden West but the main story only serves as a vehicle to deliver you to the next product. Forbidden West feels like just a bridge to the next game..

[@EnerKaizer]

From what I've seen Horizon suffers from the fact that they went out of their way to make an interesting world with a cool premise for the game to use for gameplay, but forgot to give the same care to the protagonist who is supposed to carry it all. Alloy is too generic of a hero, and honestly feels like she barely gets really involved in anything that happens to her except for the moments which got taken right out of your typical Hunger-Games style novel in the very beginning of game one. It often feels like she is just looking at the world through a window instead of directly partaking in it in a weird way. She is just along for the ride and doesn't have any kind of interesting personal journey or supporting cast to interact with. Like... imagine if her journey in game one would've established her as a sort of link between the tribes, to the point she gets involved in conflicts and what not as a neutral party etc., and establish characters she grows to like or disdain so we, as the players, can do so, too. This way they also could let her fail (either via linear story or via players choice) and thus get edges to her character that makes people want to see the next step she takes. Imagine Dad of War, but without any meaningful interactions between Kratos and Attreus (Imagine Attreus just becoming a button to press to read some ancient text on the wall for example). That is Horizons story in a nutshell.

[@yuggoth777]

I was OBSESSED with the first game when it came out because of how much I loved the ruined civilization robo-ecosystem aesthetic, and how beautiful and detailed the machines and their interactions were. It was fun figuring out what was Aloy's deal, learning tidbits about the Old World and how it fell from the ruins and getting to know how new cultures developed the first time around, but after the mystery is gone all you're left with is the insufferable dialogue and subpar combat. All of the content I've ever felt compelled to consume from the sequel was videos of people fighting the new robo-dinos.

[@shadowreaverrising1753]

The sequel's combat is much improved as is the world building in how they handle the tribes.

[@darthvaderreviews6926]

@@shadowreaverrising1753 The sequel's combat is improved in some ways, but The Enduring on Very Hard had me absolutely flabbergasted at how combat design that awful made it into a first party AAA title haha

[@shadowreaverrising1753]

@darthvaderreviews6926 Difficulty is not actually designed in most games just forced. They buff the enemy and nerf the hero.

[@NinjaRed5000]

Man this video does a good job pointing out this communities biases.

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

I have a bias for stand alone things

[@NinjaRed5000]

​@@doctordice2doctordice210as long as you're not insufferable for it

[@altosforteaquax5083]

You mean people's preferences?

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

@@NinjaRed5000 eh, look at the media landscape around us? culture is Cannibalism itself in a nostalgic consumerist nightmare

[@DIOBrando-ij2bp]

I’m surprised Pat even finished Horizon Zero Dawn. That game is so bad, some of the combat encounters are so monotonous, that at some point I just gave up on it because it was just boring to play. Fighting robot dinosaur should not be as boring as Horizon Zero Dawn makes it be. It was one of those free games Sony was giving away at some point during the Covid lockdown stuff, and I didn’t even finish it. I think I may have just gave up and played Subnautica after a while. Horizon Zero Dawn is so bad that being free started to seem like too much of an asking price. I only remember most of what I remember about it so well because of the Tarantino podcast related to his Once Upon a Time in Hollywood novelization I happened to be listening to while playing it.

[@danwoods8195]

feel the same way about last of us.

[@DaviddeBergerac]

Great thumbnnail

[@Coswalker27]

I was emotional done with sleeping dogs. I was story wise done. And didnt want to play the dlc . Although if it gave me and new game plus would play that in a heart beat.

[@shadowreaverrising1753]

The enemies in frozen wilds all have a rocket attack. Flame eruption attacks to keep you from getting comfortable at long range. An AOE ring of fire attack to fix how bad you could flank them and they spit fire for good measure.

[@raccoonofmotivation20]

People always say horizon was underrated but in reality it was more boring tham both big open world games the series released next to and no one wants to settle for less

[@jansenart0]

I felt the same way about Witcher 3.

[@panzerschreck5159]

I’ve attempted to play horizon three times. Each time I stop at a different point. I just can’t care about it

[@MrLonelyIsland]

Horizon shoulda been a one-off.

[@Ru5ho]

The sticking point of encounters being strictly "solvable" for Horizon reminds me of Pats talk about combat in The Callisto Protocol, darn shame.

[@sunkeyavad6528]

Surprisingly however the sequel actually does manage stand on its own by fully having its own story and mystery while still being a natural extension of the first one. The mystery of the 2nd is actually something that is unresolved still from the 1st game. I found it to be pretty much just about as good as the 1st one in terms of story and characters. As for that Frozen Wilds DLC, I found that to be boring aswell. Probably not a good measure to judge the 2nd game by. DLC for the 2nd game was not much better.

[@PanickedPike]

As some one who often takes Pat's advice. He's never been more wrong. Pat's not wrong if he's disinterested, he's wrong that he's informing everyone that it's objectively not interesting.

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

Rip that guys message being dog piled because they just straight up didn’t understand it