How all 12 musical notes are contained within one note | Matthew Barley | TEDxHousesofParliament

[@spacevspitch4028]

Our 12 tone system in western music is a circle of 5ths that are all detuned by about 2 cents in order to space them evenly within an octave. The fact that other intervals in this system are "close enough" to a handful of other harmonic ratios is a happy consequence of the mathematics of the whole thing. But it's really only the 3/2 relationship being wrangled to fit into the 2/1 relationship that generates the 12 tones of our western equal tempered scale. It would be nice if these Ted talks on the harmonic series in music would start with that. THEN show how, when you use the 3/2 ratio in the harmonic series to build a 12 tone, equal tempered scale, you ALSO end up with a number of other intervals that closely resemble other 3 and 5-limit ratios from the harmonic series. Which in turn makes for a musically useful tuning system from which to create. However, it's clearly NOT the only tuning system in the world. There are many others used by other cultures that are equally valid. Also, people keep mentioning Indian music which is only "microtonal" in so far as they tune 3 and 5 limit intervals purely, unlike our tempered scale. Otherwise, they do not use quarter tones for anything other than embellishments. Turkish Maqam music actually DOES use quarter tones, though. Not just as embellishments but as distinct pitches in their scales.

[@williamdavis2505]

He contradicts himself almost from the outset, when plays the harmonics of a single string then (correctly) claims there are an infinite number of harmonics, integer subdivisions, of the string. This is a bad explanation of why (contemporary, western) music subdivides an octave in to 12 tones. He plays a fretless instrument too - he should know better. Bad title too, the thesis of which is totally unsupported by the talk.

[@immediate66]

Have to agree - the argument started with an interesting proposition, but lapsed pretty quickly into the usual perspective of western harmony. One can't honestly say that everything boils down 12 notes - that's equal temperament, and what isn't explained is that equal temperament is a compromise system. For the most part a practical compromise (in the western world), but it fails miserably when trying to describe any music that employ quarter tones or further subdivisions of the octave, including gamelan music et al.

[@elbschwartz]

Agreed. There is music out there in the world that is actually based on the harmonic series, and it is nothing like Western music. It's more accurate to say that Western music is essentially Pythagorean (derived from chaining together perfect fifths) with some happy harmonic coincidences. The diatonic modes predate vertical, tonal harmony (as we understand it today) by a long time.

[@vegahimsa3057]

And after twelve cycles of fifths through seven octaves we are a comma sharp, continuing on we hit notes one comma flat of the twelve Pythagorean (a full comma Meantone). This pattern continues forever (irrational divisions of primes). However, a Holderian comma (about 22.6 ¢) imperceptibly between a syntonic and Pythagorean produces a nearly perfect (just intoned and Pythagorean and Indian Shruti and Arabic maqam) equal temperament of 53 equal divisions.

[@teddydunn3513]

@@elbschwartz 12EDO is used as more of a meantone system than a Pythagorean system, but yeah I agree with the points made here.

[@lucashoffses9019]

"220 hertz per second" Nope. Just 220 herts.

[@LeatherCladVegan]

I've heard far more grave errors by far more highly-esteemed people. I heard one scientist actually state that 200Hz + 200Hz = 400Hz. Heh.

[@mnowitzky]

Well, 200Hz + 200Hz IS 400Hz. When you double the frequency, the note goes up an octave.But I agree that his entertaining lecture was strewn with BS.

[@JLMoriart]

That would be a large change in pitch per second in the low range! And a slightly smaller change in pitch per second in the mid range! And a little smaller in the high range!

[@PaulJosephQuartet]

His exposition describing the natural overtone series refutes his own thesis that there are 12 notes, since the 12 tone equal temperament tuning system we use is NOT tuned to the overtone series. And he never states how he came to the conclusion that there are 12 tones. And BTW, Mozart didn't compose Twinkle Twinkle - he wrote variations on it.

[@oqsy]

Absolutely correct.

[@evan11235813]

There are far more than "12 notes in the world." Had he read the rest of the wiki-article he got the harmonics diagram from, he would have gotten to this image: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_%28music%29#/media/File:Harmonic_Series.png which refutes the entire premise of this talk. Fine, you want to talk about how extraordinary equal-temperament is, that's great, both in general, AND as a subject for a TED talk. You can even do the same participatory activity with the audience (an interesting way to demonstrate the use of pedal tones and harmonic tension). However, to make so many grand and factually wrong statements does no service to anyone. Composers in the Western 'Classical Art Music' tradition have been using more than 12 notes for nearly a century. Equally, before and during the early-Baroque era, there were multiple tuning systems using different frequencies and relationships. Bach's (arguably) most famous piece of music is his Well Tempered Clavier suites which were written to demonstrate the recent development of a 12-note chromatic tuning system (the one the speaker argues has been around forever everywhere in the world). Outside of the Western tradition, you have musical cultures that, although do feature a P5 in many of their tuning systems, may also have 13, 40, 100+ notes per octave! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_tuning TED is better than this!

[@jacobsoares7068]

All of that is far more than can be squeezed into sub-20 minute TED talk. He simplified the subject matter to make his main point accessible to the audience in the time allotted. Remember how you were always told in math class "You can't subtract a bigger number from a smaller number." "You can't take the square root of a negative number." "You can't add up infinitely many things." only to discover the negative numbers, complex numbers, and calculus that make all of those things possible later in your education? It's the same principle here.

[@LeatherCladVegan]

I've been listening to microtonal music, and some of it sounds like a simple variation on 12-tone equal tempered tuning - but maybe that's because that's what I am used to, I don't know, but many cultures did develop scales which fit within Western music independently (e.g. traditional Japanese music, Hungarian music, ancient Chinese music); it's not just 'all over the place'. There is something to be understood about the relationship between frequencies (in Hz), the physiological mechanism of the basilar membrane within the cochlea and the primary auditory system which perceives pitch, and the actual perception of pitch (in mels)... but I'm not quite sure what that is, yet. It's really bugging me. Historically, there is a strong correlation between 'people independently investigating how music works on the mind', and 12-note ET tuning. If I took the inverse of the argument made in the original comment, and ran it to its most absurd extreme, I would get something like: "Relative pitches are just a product of cultural nurture, and the cochlea is actually just a blank slate ready to be primed to appreciate any old random bunch of notes... and after having 'tuned' the auditory system in such a way, the person would then, one assumes, find 12-note ET music distasteful". This is not true either, IMO. I believe there is some fundamental relationship between the basilar membrane and the appreciation of intervals.

[@jaredkaye3669]

He is talking about "harmoics" not music.

[@LeatherCladVegan]

But Jared, that is the point of contention here. Or, at least one of them.

[@musicartgeek]

I agree but only to a point - his use of absolutes spoils an otherwise excellent presentation - a simple "for most of popular Western music", there are only 12 notes, that would have been enough

[@stephenweigel]

Wow, this dude needs to listen to some non-Western music, fast! "All 12 notes in music" :/

[@gabrielr4329]

The context is obviously Western music.

[@gubigm]

Nope. At 9:56 He starts to talk about some Columbian Indian music.

[@johnfleff]

Great focus on what is being convayed...I wonder why this guy even cared to comment...is this person paying attention to what is being presented? Hum...

[@joshuajackson4742]

Western music is the best. That is all.

[@frderek]

Only 12 notes in ALL the world? What about the quarter tones in (e.g.) Indian music?

[@nickdavis965]

Derek Turner in western music that isnt used. Only in vibrato it is used

[@frderek]

Yes, I know that but he did say "in the WHOLE world", which is clearly inaccurate. If he'd said "in the whole of Western tonal music", I wouldn't have commented.

[@SteelSkin667]

Indian music doesn't use quarter tones, but rely on a much more complicated system that divides the octave in 22 intervals called shruti. But yes, some other music systems divide the octave in different intervals that aren't always 12.

[@topsecret1837]

Derek Turner Quarter tones were omitted because they are used far less commonly in even Indian culture. They still are there, but mind you that quarter tones are incredibly difficult to achieve with your everyday guitar, if you don’t know exactly what frequency they are. Even on the cello one cannot determine their exact location unless you broke out a chromatic tuner and found a frequency between 415 and 440 (A and A flat) which makes A sharp flat, or A flat sharp? Right there, you also get the question about how to notate it. Do you note it one way or the other? That would make sheet reading such hard to hit notes a nightmare. The frequency difference creates by our minds would make such notes quite suited for the spiritual drone music which is commonplace in Eastern civilization, however they would need specific modifications for such note to be accurately played by cellos. It gets worse with a quartet which is trying to play a 99.999999% impossible piece which calls for them to play to the exact frequency; they are still practicing it after 15 years.

[@rizalleksono480]

Sundanese music divide one octave between 15 up to 17 notes

[@johnfleff]

You are brilliant...Truly, there are "ONLY" 12 notes! ... If you were to purchase a set of harmonicas...you would only get `12 harmonicas...why???...There are "ONLY" 12 Keys (notes) to a harmonic set. Great Job!

[@kaiasher3083]

To be honest the title of the talk was maybe the wrong choice, since I was left wondering a little whether Matthew had really ''Answered', and explained the Answer to the question...

[@paulflute]

"Every piece of music you have ever heard is made up of the same 12 notes" How do you get tot he point where you're giving a public talk on a subject without doing even the most basic research..?

[@MLFranklin]

Wonderful talk. But I was expecting his first words to be "You rang"...

[@ERICtheLATE]

This captured and emitted the true force and upfront mystery of music, it's math saturated in logic at the edge of perceived tolerances, against two thin pieces of skin, and for once, a classical piece had crowd involvement, rather than the usual coda of applause, then silence, all on the set of TEDx, with enough flaws to feed the haters, and contrive the true geniuses to voluntarily add more information on a subjective topic, of the musing of only one of 5 physical senses.

[@matt.omahan]

hi, more than twelve notes if we use more mathematically "pure" numbers - whole numbers instead of ratios. i agree upon your critique of classical music presentation but western harmony is entirely based upon nonintegral ratio?

[@williamrasasane364]

Twinkle twinkle little star actually wasnt written by Mozart

[@yoMURVY]

I don't think people without musical history really understood that...

[@LordQueezle]

Actually people with math and physics backgrounds would probably get the most out of this.

[@PaulJosephQuartet]

Neither did people with musical history - because the premise is incorrect (as the many knowledgeable folks in the comment section have pointed out)!

[@matt.omahan]

@@LordQueezle would probably get less out of this since a 12 note per octave scale is just and approximation of a true harmonic series. People without math or physics backgrounds get more since the rationalization of a twelve tone set of pitches was normalized since it's just kinda easier to digest.

[@bingochoice]

in India they use quarter tones which means there are 24 tones..

[@spacevspitch4028]

Indian music doesn't use quarter tones. If they do, it's only for embellishment, not much different than blues. Otherwise, they use a system of 12 notes with 10 of those 12 having an alternate of a slight variation in pitch (by a syntonic comma). It's called a 22-shruti system. But the notes used are related to simple harmonic ratios (3 and 5-limit) so they sound virtually no different from western 12 tone scale intervals.

[@MarionFiedlerMusic]

I really like your sound, Matthew. Thanks. The piece is beautiful as well! Really appreciate it!

[@LatchezarDimitrov]

No one of harmonics is usefull because your string isn't ideal cylinder in diametter or masse! If you use these harmonics you will be ever out of tune. The equal temperament can also be better, but the just intonation is simply impossible to use and in the same time-useless. The memory of the auditor ask you to play every note ever on the same place. Each just interval divided by the number of half tones show the incompatibility. Mathematicaly it's simple. The 12 root of 2(for the pure octave) is smaller than the 7th root of 1.5(for the pure fifth)! Also the difference is more big if you try to find the 4th root of 1.25(for the major third). Respecting only the unisson and tempering all other intervalls egaly is the only one possible way to stay in tune and in the same time maximum near to just position of ALL intervals.

[@gregm9976]

whats unknown doesnt make it impossible. do you know vortex math?

[@teddydunn3513]

Just intonation isn't "impossible". That's nonsense.

[@teddydunn3513]

Just intonation is perhaps less practical, perhaps limiting, and perhaps even less desirable for some, but it's far far from impossible.

[@musicartgeek]

The Bach prelude demonstration was excellent

[@eskrimadecampodumaguete2273]

At first I thought. "Wow, what a great mime" but then I realized I didn't turn the volume up. Then everything goes down hill.

[@tgay9844]

Wrooooong what the Bohlen pierce scale (I think that’s how it is spelled) has infinite notes because it’s not divided into octives. there are more than 12.

[@randomcello7654]

I thought this was a great talk, but im a cellist who does not actually like the way he plays the bach 1 prelude.

[@EugeneSkeef230650]

Beautiful, my friend Matthew!

[@ruxandraibric3079]

Wrong; not all notes.

[@vegahimsa3057]

There are not only twelve notes. There are twelve in equal temperament and other approximations of Pythagorean and Meantone.

[@matt.omahan]

G IS 31 CENTS FLAT SON 8:01

[@redmed10]

Am I going crazy? How come when he did individual notes, as his fretting hand moved towards the pegs the notes got higher?

[@softrockification]

You mean when he is playing harmonics? When playing the higher the fetting hand goes more and thus smaller the standing waves are which gives a higher pitch.

[@redmed10]

@@softrockification Thanks for that explanation. I'm going to have to watch it again.

[@VenetinOfficial]

that was a pretty piece of music in the beginning, actually.

[@utonic2205]

I wanted to know what the order of those 12 notes in the harmonic series are so i could make them into a 12 note row....but he stopped halfway through.

[@MEZ4RCI]

Well he was born in a western culture and tuned his ears to 12-EDO so it is expected that he thinks that way, but this talk is very one sided. He is ignoring all non-western musics(balkans, middle east, african, indian, chinese etc.) and he is also ignoring the west music culture before 1600s(when 12 equal temperament becomes to shine).

[@itslategoodnight]

Y'all stop getting triggered! Most people will only listen to pop music and that's how they'll experience music. Listening to the same 12 notes and a few chord progressions. Penderecki is not on the average person's playlist.

[@shakaama]

he's no bobby mcferrin.

[@oqsy]

Unfortunately the math doesn’t work out for 12 even divisions and “harmony”. Bach attempted to tackle this, as have thousands of others over the years. Intonation and temperment are a deep rabbit hole, and this Ted event completely undermined that fact. The compromises of any temperment are enough to drive one mad once they can hear the flaws. Thirds, fourths, fifths, and octaves will break your heart every time. Beating dissonance like a poorly balanced motor.

[@york9489]

Hard to understand

[@BetterMe981]

Yes, that's because the info is incorrect.

[@ethanmcginnis8768]

All the notes in the world? Lmao, thanks to our 12 equal temperament

[@chuygutierez3606]

I feel like this guy explained it terribly and wrong making it confusing

[@waranghira]

12 notes =/= Harmonics Not even all 7 notes, 6 = Thirds, not the relative minor, 4 = Octave, not a sub nor anything else. Some please school this guy before he TED talks. 7:41 yeaeaaahhhh, you're not getting all those notes are ya