How Allied and Nazi Generals Created the Clean Wehrmacht Myth - WW2 Legacy Special

[@WorldWarTwo]

The clean Wehrmacht myth is just one of so many rewritings of history - rewritings that are still happening today. Join the TimeGhost Army so we can bring you the real stories of our past!

[@randomchannel-px6ho]

As an American - please the rest of the world call what is happening here what it is. They're weak cowards who you should not be afriad of, don't back down and help the just here apply pressure

[@Apnah13]

​@@randomchannel-px6hoit's crazy lol.

[@Camcolito]

@@randomchannel-px6ho What are you talking about?

[@aresee8208]

I am so tired of reading commenrs that state, (only) victors write the history. Losers have long written their own histories, and some have even become received wisdom among many people. So, stop thinking that only victors write the history is in any way an argument in defense of the horrible things losers have done while losing their war, nor is it even true amyway.

[@WillN2Go1]

When anyone says, "Let's leave the past in the past." Speak up, "Oh so you mean, 'Let's make sure this happens again.'"

[@peterfriedenspfeife9230]

I am so glad that you are doing this Legacy series, it wraps up all the loose ends that remained when the war ended.

[@boogerie]

Hindenburg 1919: "We didn't lose the war we were stabbed in the back" von Manstein 1946: "I'm shocked! Shocked to find genocide going on here!"

[@mind-blowing_tumbleweed]

vpn Manstein: we didn't lose the war, we were stabbed in yummy back by Hitler

[@Jakob_DK]

Remember the germans committed mass murder also in WW1 in Belgium. Not as bad as in WW2, but they still did it.

[@Adelina-293]

I'm reminded of a similar scene in Casablanca. Captain Renault: I'm shocked to learn people gamble here. Waiter: Your money Captain. Captain Renault: Thank you.

[@ollyx2]

Remember both events are war lies how much of a goy can you be?​@@Jakob_DK

[@GreatPolishWingedHussars]

It's great that this video exists. But it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why Germans and western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using Germans and Germany in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few Germans were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS! Why is it done that way? Why is it done that way? Why is the lie being spread of the few Germans who were responsible for the crimes? At first in 1945, the Americans had the right attitude regarding the Germans, as this educational film shows for the US Army. „Your Job in Germany - KZbin" kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYC4g2irq9hsl9k Then pragmatism prevailed over justice! Becaus after the war, the Americans believed the Germans would be useful as allies! So in the 50s, most of Germans became the ally of the West. (West Germany). The problem, however, was that they were completely amoral and degenerate. The West could not be allied to a morally degenerate nation that has murdered millions of children, among other crimes. The Germans were practically systematically washed clean to be tolerable as allies. So the Germans were washed clean by propaganda (Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc.) and the blame was put on relatively few Nazis. For this reason, a white washing campaign was launched relatively early after the war. Actually, the German crimes are permanently relativized by Western propaganda. Yes, there are always good Germans in Hollywood movies about World War II, according to the motto not all were Nazis. It was only logical that a movie was given the title "The Good German". I could go on like this for hours and describe 1000 examples in which the Germans were separated from the Nazi guilt by Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc. So please always talk / write about the Germans in this context. Never about the Nazis! One shouldn't take part in the whitewashing!

[@Kraniumbrud]

the idea of the innocent genius generals is so fuckíng persistant, I come across it constantly in my work as a historian

[@erics7992]

It's been in every movie, every tv show, every conversation at every corner bar "If Hitler only would have listened to his generals ...'

[@keithplymale2374]

So did I in reading my first history books in the 1970's-80's. But after the end of the Cold War a lot of what he is talking about came out.

[@arrrchdukemax8192]

@@Kraniumbrud Me too. So as videos of ex Wehrmaht vets. "We have no regrets". "Wir hatten unsere Befehle".

[@MikaelFlyer]

They were fundamental in NATOs survival so therefore they were white washed.

[@enzobuso5933]

"Only in a world this shitty could you even try to say these were innocent people and keep a straight face."

[@poiuyt975]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="650">10:50</a> "The army would've won the war, if Hittler wasn't meddling..." Sounds like a line from Scooby Doo. :D

[@massiarmy751]

as funny as it sounds it is a possibility highly debated

[@not2hot99]

​@@massiarmy751Other than the fact some meddling by Hitler worked out well

[@Tarnatos14]

@@massiarmy751 It is not. If Hitlwe wasnt meddling: first there would have been no war at all, so nothing to win, second there would be no "Sichelschnitt" through the ardennes. You cant seperate Hitler from meddling with the war, as the war was his meddling from the first point, and to cite Keitel about Hitler 1940: "der größte Feldherr aller zeiten" (greatest general/warlord of all times)

[@awsomelightnin]

I think that it's important to point something out in regard to Erwin Rommel; the prosecutors at Nuremberg knew that the main defence each defendant would give would be 'I was just following orders' so they looked for examples of when members of the German armed forces refused them. The best example they could find was Erwin Rommel's refusal of the Commando Order given by Hitler in October 1942 which instructed for all commandos to be executed upon capture even if they surrendered or were in uniform. This example enabled the prosecutors to show that it was in fact possible to refuse an order deemed to be immoral and shut down that argument as a valid way to justify the carrying out of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

[@modest_spice6083]

Rommel's Afrika Korps, in coordination with SS leader Walter Rauff of the gas van fame, is responsible for the numerous concentration camps in Libya and Tunisia. After their defeat in North Africa, the Jews and other undesirables in the concentration camps were shipped to Europe.

[@bringerofword4644]

choosing the most popular german general to use as a standard by which they ignore orders is a bad one, very few had popularity as a shield.

[@AdamBrusselback]

​@@bringerofword4644did they deserve a shield at all in your view?

[@marknieuweboer8099]

No German general or marshall was ever executed after disobeying orders. They were fired and placed in the Führer Reserve. Von Rundstedt (the one who probably comes closest to "clean hands") holds the record.

[@mind-blowing_tumbleweed]

​@@bringerofword4644people praising Rommel forget that he was his bodyguard at some point, him wishing to get rid of his boss has little to do with atrocities

[@Paladin1873]

Rehabilitating the reputation of the Wehrmacht is akin to picking up a turd by the clean side.

[@aaronkrucoff5181]

Best example I've seen

[@amk4956]

This has done as much to poison our view of history as the lost cause myth. The old adage “the truth will set you free” has never been more prescient as generations are left prisoners of lies dooming them to make the same mistakes

[@Apnah13]

There's power in the truth, my friend.

[@jasonweitzel4393]

The notion that there is some absolute truth just waiting to be found is the exact thing that leads to people believeing in falsehoods so absolutely

[@rick7424]

​@@jasonweitzel4393 It is important to have perspective and understand nuance, but there are certain harder truths.

[@angmori172]

​@@jasonweitzel4393what you said makes zero sense. Truth is absolute and objective. Sure, there are situations where perspective can be relevant, usually in the form of context which is made up of other, related truths. And people believe in falsehoods with fanaticism for emotional reasons, not because they believe that truth can be absolute. What relativistic garbage you spout

[@angmori172]

@jasonweitzel4393 you sound like you need to take your meds

[@keithplymale2374]

A lot of this came out after the Wall came down and archives were opened with the end of the Cold War. I agree with Spartacus never forget.

[@thebunkerparodie6368]

Ian kershaw in his hitler biography also debunk the clean wehrmacht and the myth that had hitler listened to his general, he'd won when the general could make mistakes too

[@HeathenDance]

I have that. It's excellent.

[@thebunkerparodie6368]

@@HeathenDance I got the condensced version in french, it also goes over wether hitler was socialist or not and kershaw doesn't portray hitler as one, the book also shows the mistakes didn't happened solely because of hitler

[@LizzyMeyer-g1d]

Anyone who thinks that any army is completely ‘clean’ is crazy. (Not saying this in defense of the German army, just saying).

[@tsarfield5835]

Agreed, but clean of the Holocaust and other atrocities is a whole different thing. Not comparable to every other army, and you know this.

[@nathanl4083]

There is a big difference, all these clean wehrmacht guys where active fans of Hitler, disliked democracy, where ant-semites, agreed with disregarding the geneva convention ect ect. No army is innocent but some are nazis and others are not

[@LizzyMeyer-g1d]

@ yes, of course.

[@brandonlance3601]

​@@tsarfield5835different than allied 'De-housing'?? Please enlighten me..

[@unnefer001]

@@brandonlance3601 De-housing=genocide?

[@Benaplus1]

When I was in high school, a WW2 vet came to talk about his experiences. He was taken POW by the Wehrmacht during the Battle of the Bulge He told us that he was surprised how well he was treated by the Germans. When he asked them about it they said "Oh, yeah, we're just soldiers. It's the SS who are really evil." Whether they genuinely believed that or not, it's unfortunate that this vet took that as the truth in the face of Nuremberg. As a kid hearing that from a firsthand source, *I* took that as the truth until I went to college and started reading about WW2 on my own. Thank you for your efforts to dispell this myth. It's unfortunately very necessary these days.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

But he was treated better by the regular German army ❤

[@DruiceBox]

@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb"better..." so he wasn't tortured and worked to death because he wasn't a jew! Aw good job to the german army!

[@DerLoladin]

Thats a strange conclusion to draw from something like that. The statement from the Wehrmacht Soldier isn't false or a lie - yes, the Wehrmacht were enablers and at times even conductors of the genocide, but the SS explicit purpose and mission, unlike that of the Wehrmacht, was murder of civilians and "cleansing" the occupied areas.

[@CarrotConsumer]

On the western front it has some truth to it. The SS did have a habit of killing POWs, see the Malmedy or Normandy massacres. The large scale Wehrmact war crimes were mostly on the eastern front, which is probably why it was easy for westerners to ignore.

[@Tarnatos14]

@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb Belive me they treated the Soviets far worse.. in fact they even treated the soviest worse than there own standard said to treat.

[@Jamarmy2012]

All the times that Indy said 'smiling' Albert Kesselring, and burned it into my brain. Now we know why hes smiling; and im upset that he was allowed any amount of control over the narative of the war and his own trial sentancing him to death.

[@kennagel8088]

A US general said " why are we taking advice from the Germans? They lost 2 wars"!

[@Jarod-vg9wq]

😂.

[@Jarod-vg9wq]

World wars even!

[@stevew6138]

I think it was in the book, "The Nazi Doctors" a passage going something like this, "All you have to do in order to get good men to do horrible things is convince them of the "rightness" of what is asked of them."

[@valerytaubin8728]

The Sonder commands couldn't operate without the Wehrmacht

[@lorenzg5912]

As a kid I listened to my grandfather's stories about the war. He told my a lot of the atrocities he witnessed, but still insisted that "his" unit was always clean. I think he could not accept that he was part of such a monstrous crime and wasted his best years (he was born 1920, so he effectively spent his whole 20s as soldier)

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

It's possible his unit wasn't involved in the Holocaust. Almost every front line soldier in every war killed civilians either on purpose or by accident ❤

[@lorenzg5912]

@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb As far as I know he was mostly Pilot for the Luftwaffe (until there were no planes left to fly). Still he witnessed the crimes (hanged "Partisans", burned villages,...), mostly in the east. The time in france must be relativly chill until ´44

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

@@lorenzg5912 it doesn't sound like he did commit crimes against humanity. Many allied soldiers certainly did.

[@leonodonoghueburke4276]

​@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb David, why are all of your comments under this video attacking the allies and defending the Nazis?

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

@@leonodonoghueburke4276 I'm defending the truth. People are forced into things and it's a bit unfair to judge them when you have not been forced into the same situation

[@salty4496]

A comment to show my support for the channel, and for the YT algorithm

[@Gogmosis]

You get a like for that.

[@Steeyuv]

@@Gogmosis two

[@robertbloch1063]

Yes, there really is nothing to add here. Just satisfy algorithm.

[@paultapner2769]

@@Steeyuv three

[@YorozuyaGinChan]

Hello Mr. Olsson great video as always props to you and your team. However one thing I couldn't help but notice that your hands were shaking during some of the close up shots. I hope you are healthy . You and your team are truly a gem to the History community.

[@spartacus-olsson]

I’m fine, but I have a congenial tremor in my hands that is unfortunately progressive. I used to be able to mostly control it, but it’s getting tricky with the years. It’s harmless though irritating. Thanks for your concern though, and your kind words.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

I have the same condition. My father and his father had it. The funny thing is that it bothers everyone else more than me ❤

[@spartacus-olsson]

@ same here, got it from my dad who got it from my grandmother. You’re right about other people, but it can be a bit of an issue in situations where people expect you to be nervous so they think you are. I usually preempt by just telling them before it gets all awkward. When he was still working, my dad nearly lost a big contract over it. Client saw him having a bear at lunch, and assumed shaking plus beer at lunch must equal serious drinking problem.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

@@spartacus-olsson I agree. It's annoying when people think I'm nervous about something when I'm not. I'll use your technique and just tell them my condition.

[@twoheart7813]

“The only thing new in the world is the history you do not know.” ― Harry S. Truman

[@lucasjleandro]

"Oh Crap we need a German Army to shield us from USSR" Some Ally Analyst

[@Jarod-vg9wq]

To be fair there fear is not unfounded and the German country will need an army eventually the Soviet Union did have real intentions are expanding Weston to Europe

[@tami8110]

Its a shame to see people in the comments just answering with whataboutism to such a topic

[@namegoeshereorhere5020]

I had a girlfriend when I was young who's father was in the Hitler Youth. Even though he was very young at the time he told me that pretty much everyone knew what was happening to the Jews to some degree. They may have not known the full extent about the camps etc. but nobody thought they were being treated well.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

Also he had no choice in joining. A lot of people replying on here are acting holier than thou yet one would have to be a super hero to stand against an authoritarian government's orders ❤

[@Tarnatos14]

@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb Actually you cant say that. I have studied history in germany, so I know studies and primary sources in the language. There are far more examples where people had choices, in fact if it was not about direct resitance, a lot of people and actions which did not joined the Nazis in germany where not punished, or even changed nazi politics, because the Nazis where very eager to hold the german population peacful and cooperative. For example there is a whole study about Bavaria and the christian paralell societies in the small villiages, where a lot of stuff happened the nazis did not liked, even offcialy wanted to stop but they did not because they dont wanted to provoke the people there. Other examples are even on higher grades, whole commanders of military units who did not really followed the Kommissarbefehl where just overload, while yes others got no promotion or some degradation and still. There are even such examples as oskar schindler, who came through with his actions the whole time, and he was not a single person doing just stuff on his own, but an big industrialist. The reality was much more complex and between resistance and resiliance where abig difference, moste things people did and had actualy choices where no question to be "a super hero to stand against an authoritarian government" but more to stand out of certain paths which seamed easy, but not every otehr path was already a death sentence or a ticket to jail.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

@@Tarnatos14 are you trying to say that young people in Germany then didn't have to join the Hitleryouth if they didn't want to?

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

@@Tarnatos14 you are right in a way because my response to you was blocked. Proves that tyranny still exists. Even on this silly site.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

@@Tarnatos14 I'll try again

[@DanielsPolitics1]

At <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1105">18:25</a> it is worth spelling out that the war started when Hitler went in to Poland, having agreed with Stalin to carve it up. He had a pact with Stalin from before Poland up till he invaded the USSR. There was absolutely nothing defence in any way about the war.

[@TheMexxodus]

I wonder how the East-German Nationale Volksarmee dealt with former Wehrmacht officers? The Eastern Front was undeniably a showcase of the Wehrmachts active involvement and participation in the extermination war. So Eastern European countries must have some reaction to rehabilitating former Wehrmacht officers in the Volksarmee of the GDR?

[@marknieuweboer8099]

There is a YT channel devoted to East Germany with a video about this topic. The communists were even bigger hypocrites.

[@MrZauberelefant]

Not like to get a say in the WP if Moscow says otherwise.

[@Adam-g01]

They disliked it but couldn’t do anything because Stalin but it’s why east Germany didn’t invade Czechoslovakia in 1968

[@dimamatat5548]

Thankfully, the Bundeswehr learned from the Wehrmacht's mistakes and follows a strict code of conduct to avoid war crimes.

[@phyarth8082]

Franz Halder which besides planning also was responsible for provisions of Wehrmacht and exist documents where train convoys with prisoners towards extermination concentration camps had priority over trains convoys with provision to Wehrmacht. So he allowed starvation of own army without food and ammunition's to allow exterminate more "enemies of the state". That is dedication without "Madman Hitler" orders.

[@rationalbasis2172]

When Stalin learned of the torture and killing of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya by members of the Wehrmacht 197th Infantry Division, he ordered that every member of that German division be killed rather than taken prisoner. When the U.S. learned of the torture and killing of Zoya, they did everything they could in the postwar environment to suppress the story - in cooperation with the criminals who perpetrated it.

[@richalexandersen5524]

excellent presentation. Thank you.

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for watching.

[@volodyadykun6490]

Great work as always, you're doing big important thing

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thank you for the comment, we appreciate it!

[@roymartin500]

Thanks Sparty & team. This is an all around excellent episode. Great job!

[@butternutmunchkin]

Watching this video reminded me of the late Kurt Waldheim, the former president of Austria. While he was running for the said position in 1986, the revelation of his service in Greece and Yugoslavia during World War II, and of his knowledge of Nazi atrocities as an intelligence officer the Wehrmacht, raised international controversy. Many other public figures in Austria, Germany and other European countries also had their careers marred by revelations of their association with Nazi Germany through their former service in either the Wehrmacht or the SS.

[@ronjohnson6916]

The Lost Cause folks are the champs here. Still this was a remarkable "clearing" of their record.

[@Swedishmafia101MemeCorporation]

Thank you for addressing this.

[@bd95382]

This video is so important. Thanks for making it

[@spartacus-olsson]

Thank you for watching

[@paultapner2769]

Growing up in Britain in the 70's, we had weekly anthology comics. Some of which were war based. Usually telling stories of plucky Tommies running rings round German Soldiers. Who would say 'achtung schweinhund!' or 'verdammit Englander!'. They did fairly regularly run stories from with German lead characters. Usually an honourable soldier who would have to Battle nasty SS men as much as they battled Allied troops. I remember saying once 'why is it always the nice Germans? Why not do a story about the nasty Germans?'. You don't know any better when you're ten years old. One well remembered story 'Hellman of Hammer Force' was about an honourable tank commander trying to fight his war with honour. And coming against the SS every so often. That was reprinted recently in two volumes. It didn't stand up quite as well as I remembered. But when it gets into 1945 it doesn't entirely pull it's punches. We see civilians murdered by the Red Army. We see Hellman and his crew find a concentration camp. And how the fanatical Hitler Youth member of his crew reacts to that. So I give it some points for trying.

[@thebunkerparodie6368]

also for the algorythm, can't wait for the nuremberg videos

[@WorldWarTwo]

Coming soon, stay tuned.

[@honker3282]

"A big boy did it and then he ran away. It wasn't me !"

[@davidkinsey8657]

Just like the "Lost Cause" myth of the American Civil War, the "Clean Whermacht" myth puts the lie to the old adage: "History is written by the victors."

[@Significantpower]

Yup. It's written by survivors

[@spartacus-olsson]

@@Significantpowerposterity…

[@CruelDwarf]

It was very much written by the victors. Because mad ramblings of former Nazis were only disseminated around by the blessing of their new American masters. Without US backing, nobody would know about any of that.

[@404Dannyboy]

History is written by the people who write. Both lost cause and clean Whermacht myths have had all too much ink dishonestly put to paper to spread them.

[@spartacus-olsson]

@ that’s an odd statement considering much historiography we have about the Vietnam War which clearly does not paint the US in a very good light. Also, that war was the first war reported on by independent journalists broadcasting live on location. It’s fair the first televised war even. Famously that reporting outraged the world, and launched widespread protests against America. I truly fail to see any validity to your point. A’s for the Middle East… that’s a region, what event(s) are you referring to?

[@IrishEye]

When history meets realpolitik, history always loses.

[@TWX1138]

I take a bit of exception to the notion that the Nazis would have definitively won against the Soviet Union if Hitler hadn't bungled things. The Soviet Union did what Russia has always done, which is to wage a fighting retreat with scorched-earth policy and letting the vast geography and weather wreak havoc on the invaders' supply lines and troop movements. In the past I had speculated if it would have been possible for the western allies to defeat the Nazis if somehow the Soviets had been truly defeated first, and while perhaps not utterly impossible, it would have been devastating to engage in a war against a Nazi Germany that wasn't also facing an onslaught from the east.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

The Germans would have easily won if the allies had not supplied the Soviets in order for them to fight on the Eastern front.

[@bobmcbob9856]

I love to see the 17 million number used, focusing on all holocaust victims, not just Jews. Not that I have an issue with educating on Jewish victims, it’s absolutely essential, but as the descendant of Slavic holocaust victims, I obviously like when that side of it also gets attention.

[@jasonmussett2129]

Excellent as always. The book Myth of The Eastern Front throws more light on the so called 'Clean Wehrmacht'.

[@aegis6485]

The "Clean" Wehrmacht myth was just the German adaptation of the Lost Cause myth from the US.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

True but can you name a country that has not committed crimes against humanity ❤

[@DruiceBox]

@@DavidMcdonald-df8tbI can name quite a few that didn't systematically murder millions!

[@DerLoladin]

Really important and very good video on the topic - not take away from this, but will there be a similar one on Allied crimes and the complete lack of accountability for their leaders? (Tokyo Fire Bombing, Laconia Incident, Patton as a general leader, Paratrooper orders on D-Day etc.)

[@spartacus-olsson]

I’ve covered those of course, and I will make a video about a complicated and controversial concept called reciprocal response in connection to the upcoming Nuremberg Trials coverage. SPOILERS BELOW. Beyond the obvious fact that it’s tricky to prosecute your own leadership, there was a legal issue. A common law in the customs of war was understood to be unaffected by the Conventions of the Hague. In oversimplified terms it meant that if all belligerents used an illegal practice, even if one party started it, it was to be considered legal for the purpose of the conflict in question. This could arguably be applied to for instance strategic bombing, despite that targeting civilians was clearly in violation of the Conventions of The Hague. Although not all legal scholars agreed, and still don’t agree that the law applied, the doubt was enough to not pursue some types of crimes. This was applied to both sides, so for instance; neither Arthur Harris, nor Albert Kesselring were charged with the crime of deliberately targeting civilians by terror bombing, although both did it. Then there’s the whole issue of winners and losers, but a) don’t expect too much there, generally speaking the criminal energy on the Axis side wildly outdid the Allies - even when you include the Soviets. And b) for a more nuanced and comprehensive answer you’ll have to wait for the video. Oh, lest I forget; the concept of reciprocal response was explicitly written out of the laws of war in the 1950s.

[@jasondouglas6755]

I feel like everyone must watch this video. The amount of people I have met on the internet who say that the Wehrmact was a brilliant fighting force. Or that the West should have joined the Germans in there fight against the Soviets is astounding and must be addressed.

[@damirsirotic052]

People who grew up in Yugoslavia had no delusions about a "pure" Wehrmacht.

[@frostyrobot7689]

A great study. I knew this before but your presentation was very compelling.

[@nelsonchereta816]

1946: "I was only following orders." "That's no excuse!" 1949: "I was only following orders." "You know you may have a point."

[@MaconMedia]

Thank You for this video!!!

[@WorldWarTwo]

And thank you for watching.

[@JohnDoe-iq5xv]

If you step back, your argument of 17 million killed people is very powerful. Just from the logistics and purely organizational point of view, Einsatzgroupen even supported by local police units and the population, would have been unable to organize this scale of massacre. It is not only the bullets at the end. All those people being detained first, most probably "housed", patrolled, and transported. They may have been killed right away (on the spot), but that means that the front units of Wehrmacht were still present, and the area was under their jurisdiction.

[@spartacus-olsson]

So true - the scope of this murderous undertaking and 12 million enslaved or pressed into subsistence labor, mostly _inside_ Germany itself is also what makes any statement of ignorance by Germans of the time patently absurd.

[@JohnDoe-iq5xv]

@@spartacus-olsson Just wanted to say thank you, guys, for the series that you are producing.

[@spartacus-olsson]

@ 🙏🏼

[@UncleDansVintageVinyl]

Superb video. Thank you.

[@greenockscatman]

Sadly the myth has taken hold. In fact I had someone on Twitter saying most of the SS were ordinary people the other day. Seems we’re all too eager to forget.

[@mikebunting7262]

We're about to be reminded again after 1/20/25

[@Stahlkralle44]

Most of SS-Member were indeed odinary people - that is the crucial and horrific fact about us humans.

[@Camcolito]

@@Stahlkralle44 Excellent point.

[@getsomeboy321]

​@@mikebunting7262the wall isn't to keep people out, it's to keep liberals in

[@JohnLane-h4r]

Never has the saying “ The enemy of my enemy is my friend “ seemed to be so widely accepted in error 😢

[@tjanderson5892]

I've always given more support to the idea that the generals should have always been held the most responsible when building war crimes cases. Even more than a grunt who may have actually committed the crime on orders from command. As much as ppl wanted to claim that it's no excuse. The "I was just following orders," explanation was actually a valid one imo for many lower ranks. Punishing a soldier for following orders never made sense to me. The low ranking soldier couldn't pick and choose what orders to follow. But the Generals had all the control and discretion they wanted. If they wanted to disobey then they actually had the power to do so w/o a court martial and death sentence. Turning a blind eye isn't taking a stand. History showed us that the majority of those labeled as evil criminals actually went on to live functioning lives that actual evil individuals wouldn't be capable of. They may have kept their prejudices, but to not cross the line bc you aren't commanded to do so kinda shows that many explanations saying "they were just following orders," was actually correct.

[@sliceemup2772]

Are there any recommended books or sources to learn more about the myth?

[@WorldWarTwo]

If you'd like to read some more you could check out "The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality" by Wolfram Wette, it was one of the sources for this video. Thank you for watching.

[@ggregd]

Wow, you're still getting understated pushback and whataboutism even here in the comments.

[@spartacus-olsson]

We always do…

[@tsarfield5835]

What do these nazi defendants gain from this is the real question? That state is long gone, its reputation forever tarnished, as it should be, and its sins clear as day. What do young kids today gain from defending nazi germany online? Is real knowledge that hard to gain nowadays, and in that case. Who's fault is it that these sorts of young people exist.

[@spartacus-olsson]

@ the real thing they’re defending are shared beliefs, most often antisemitic myths.

[@bringerofword4644]

@@tsarfield5835 imo they get a sense of belonging despite their flaws. For the US we have a society that heavily incentivizes young men to look at these lies.

[@bwarre2884]

​@@tsarfield5835They belong to a part of society that gets more and more radicalised. Having their own (social) media and discrediting common knowledge as "MSM" (mainstream media, that supposedly has it's own political agenda) or as (left-wing) propaganda. And this battle for the "truth" is a political battle. Some people have lots to gain from these lies.

[@chrisschultz8598]

The old trope was: The victors write the histories. After World War II, apparently not so much.

[@andrewcoley6029]

Fantastic work about an horrific subject

[@yes_head]

Was it any surprise all of these Germans officers would pull a "I never saw these assholes before!"? I get the sense Western leaders were just exhausted by the constant stream of horrific stories coming out of post-war Germany, and embraced *anything* that would sweeten the stench of all the atrocities. Nothing like a few commutations and some whitewashing to do the trick. BTW, I was hoping you guys would be doing a deluxe episode covering the Nuremburg trials. Glad to hear it's on the way.

[@hemidas]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="407">6:47</a> Hold up! Blaskowitz!?

[@caryblack5985]

He protested and was taken out of active duty from1939 till 1944.

[@TheoHawk316]

"Blaskowitz shut the fricking front door!"

[@rannyacernese6627]

People want to believe the ordinary people can’t act like monsters

[@stephengoetsch349]

A good book dealing mostly with the myth of the honorable Allies is a book I’m reading now, by John Dower “War without Mercy, Race and Power in the Pacific War”. It exposes that the idea that Japanese were without peer amongst the British and Americans in brutal inhumanity is not quite accurate, and that the Japanese fight to the death ethic was greatly strengthened by the brutal manner in which many surrendering Japanese were slaughtered. I think it can be said that the Allies were somehow “less bad” than the Japanese, but it’s like saying a mass murder of hundreds is less awful than a mass murder of thousand. Interesting book.

[@8BRInteractive]

The CDU must be renamed to "Konrad-Adenauer-Heim für politisch heimatlose Nazis".

[@IsaiahMiguelMagallon]

"Enemy of my enemy is my friend."

[@maartenjohannes]

Watching this video, I am becoming more interested in the historiography of the war. I would be very interested in more videos about the motivations and thoughts of the time when, for example, Smiling Albert Kesselring was writing for the US military in prison.

[@robjohnson1197]

Excellent broadcast. Your history is impeccable. It's very important for the world at large to recognize what you have conveyed. Its much too easy to dismiss the facts about the Wehrmacht.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

I'd like to add for the sake of truth that every country has committed crimes against humanity ❤

[@RAAM855]

"It takes 15,000 casualties to train a major general." -Ferdinand Foch As far as im concerned nobody who holds such high rank in either side is clean. Heck I dont think its possible for any General in any war. You either lead the young and naive to their doom from your own tactical short comings or pride. Or you lose control of them and fail or refuse to reign them in as they contribute towards the war on humanity with vile actions. Sad that people entertained the notion of these myths.

[@angelogarcia2189]

The sacrifices we made to win the Cold War were multitude.

[@juvandy]

The Clean Wehrmacht has a lot in common with The Lost Cause. In both cases, charismatic leaders were given far too much freedom to tell stories from their own perspectives, largely for political reasons, and with terrible consequences.

[@Canute_]

Any chance you'll cover generals and other military figures that went on to serve NATO and the West after the war such as Johannes Steinhoff? I'm really curious of how much they influenced the alliance.

[@KPW2137]

I might be wrong here, especially as I do not have the book at hand - but wasn't it the case in Guderian's memoir that on many pages he swore that NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CAMPS, yet on one of the pages mentioned something about an officer who did something wrong and it was a reason for concerns as everyone knew it could land the guy in a camp?

[@gurufabbes1]

It may be hard to believe but although the Clean Wehrmacht Myth is universally discredited nowadays, it does to an extent live on even in Germany in the form of certain military magazines, still published on a monthly basis, though usually in niche right wing circles. I was surprised when I came across some being sold online. It's in this grey area where they aren't denying anything that is against the law, but just leave the bad details aside. They are colloquially referred to as "Landserhefte"

[@gurufabbes1]

I think many people watching may find what is said here to be fairly banal, obvious: Of course the German army was involved in war crimes, of course wide parts of society after the war were rehabilitated after pro-forma "denazification". I think there's a generational gap that even I have noticed. If you had the pleasure of speaking to Germans of the post-war boomer generation, they will tell you that there was a long gap of silence in the 1950s and 1960s, that German society would not talk about what had gone on (though wouldn't deny it either) and most definitely would not talk about the responsibility or past of those now in office in West Germany. Yes, there were of course a number of trials for those directly responsible, but the question of the larger role of everyone else was not addressed. It is further events like the Holocaust TV special in 1978, the Ostpolitik of the late 60s and the publication of the Braunbuch that caused sea changes towards remembrance and a reevaluation of German's of their history. But before that, a lot of this stuff was not banal and the clean Wehrmacht myth remained the coping mechanism of post-war Germany. I also remember when there was the "Verbrechen der Wehmacht" exhibition in the early 2000s which made the rounds across large parts of the German speaking world particularly to condemn this myth. I did go to see it when it came, and do remember being shocked at the very graphic nature of the photos from the Eastern Front.

[@TheEvertw]

While the release of most war criminals is abhorrent, we should remember that our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against the lies that caused the crimes. Most would have done like these people, had they been in the same circumstances.

[@rick7424]

Doing the good work by debunking disinformation.

[@jeansanchez5209]

excellent video any person who still belives the german army was pure is ignorant and foolish

[@justonemori]

Bullets don't wear uniforms.

[@John-qe3ky]

Victors write history and executions - example Soviet Union war crimes such as against Poland during their treaty with Germany was never mentioned by the Allies.

[@Jarod-vg9wq]

Great to see you Sparty! I hope to see videos of you talking about the world’s reaction to the holocaust, the antisemitism of Europe before the war, and may be a video on the righteous some of the nations the thousands of people around Europe from ambassadors to soldiers to regular people who risk their lives saving Jews. I hope these ideas become videos of yours because these are topics I believe you can do grape justice

[@geoffreywilds4173]

Crazy idea, hear me out, have you all by chance thought of asking guests, military officers, from the modern German Army talk on this subject with you?

[@MrGoldenAssassin1]

Great episode We have to know the truth whether we like it or not

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for watching.

[@mitchellsmith4690]

There's a great book called, in english, "The Myth of the Weremacht", by a German historian named Witt...exposing this cover up.

[@bobmcbob9856]

[INCORRECT, SEE CLARIFICATION IN REPLIES]: Most miniscuke nitpick: Though from Austria, and clearly quite Germanizd, Rendulic is a Croat, his last name would be pronounced Rendulitch not Rendulik

[@spartacus-olsson]

We checked actually… while it would most certainly be the ch in Serbo-Croatian, his name was pronounced with the c as k. Probably an effort to be more “German.”

[@bobmcbob9856]

@ I shouldn’t be surprised that you did more research than me. Thanks for the reply! Love how much you guys engage with the community.

[@arrrchdukemax8192]

I'm really glad I've watched that video. I have many friends from the Eastern Europe and ex-USSR and so many of em and especially the elder generation don't understand that "polite" and "tolerant" imagination of Wehrmaht in some kinda films and TVser.. like the scene in "Brothers in arms" with German general. And youtube videos where some Wehrmaht veterans in museums told some things in cold blood: "We tried to protect Germany and Europe from communism. We served our Heimat. We did what we think (not thought) right". That makes the elder generation of people especially of the exUSSR furious. Ah, "SS burned the cities, SS Killed the civilians. We were just following superior orders". But dan, there was the Great Order - "Generalplan Ost". One of the most severe and monstrous towards not only Jewish but Slavic civilians of the USSR. Germans fought absolutely different kind of war in the East unlike the Western Front and North Africa campaign. Just like Japanese imperial forces in China. The famous soviet astronaut Yuri Gagarin was almost got executed when german soldiers tried to hang him and his younger brother Boris on an apple tree using his scarf. He was 8-9years old boy.

[@matthewcasady6276]

Its was the cold war. The German army was guilty as hell, but there were far More pressing issues to worry about. Don't forget the two countries calling the shots, the U.S and the U.K. weren't overrun by German armies, so the domestic pressure just wasn't there by the time the 50's come around.

[@Lockerus]

This pretty much solidifies my views on Guderian - he was a far more proficient giant baby and scumbag than he was a tank commander.

[@greg1769]

Thanks for telling the truth. You guys are True and Honest Historians.

[@spartacus-olsson]

Thank you, very kind of you to say.

[@josedavidgarcesceballos7]

Would you mind to share the reference for the Bertrand Russell statement on von manstein? Thanks

[@brucebartup6161]

All Germans knew.

[@Santiago-kl5jo]

Manstein was an enigma. He actually protected a jewish or half jewish officer but knew very well what happened on the Ostfront

[@MrZauberelefant]

He even issued the orders to deal with partisans and commissars. He was complicit

[@CarrotConsumer]

Hitler protected his childhood doctor, a Jew. Personal sympathy goes a long way.

[@jankusthegreat9233]

Hi

[@WorldWarTwo]

Hello

[@barrybence4555]

I aked the contractor who built our town's personal care home if he kew why American GI's like my Dad hated the SS. This man was very smart and competent and had emigrated from Germany to Canada after the War, His reply, "The SS were just really tough fighters, like the American Marines." This was in 1990. It is evidence how hard it is for any country to admit their complicity with wrong. Then, who of us ever finds that an easy task? The ethical life, Socrates showed us, can easily lead to suicide in a world that cuts deals for its own gains.

[@marknieuweboer8099]

"Who of us ...?" I find it an easy task. The Dutch Army committed war crimes during the Indonesian Independence War at SS level. I've suspected this since the 1980s and got it indirectly confirmed in 1990. I don't suffer from nationalism.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

Name a country that has never committed crimes against humanity ❤

[@marknieuweboer8099]

San Marino and Andorra.

[@DavidMcdonald-df8tb]

@@marknieuweboer8099 thanks for your response. I will check into them and hope that you are right. However either way it proves my point

[@mrhonkhonk6116]

@@marknieuweboer8099 isn't like former SS soldiers where brought back into the Dutch army because of their "expertiese" fighting against partisan group

[@Adelina-293]

This video should make for a boring tranquil comments section.

[@rootbeerpoptart]

History is written by the losers in this case I guess

[@otakunthevegan4206]

Yup, Japan too.

[@DominionSorcerer]

And the Confederate States of America.

[@sirhenrymorgan1187]

The Confederacy and Imperial Japan as well. Playing the victim to this day. I'm an American Southerner of Korean descent. I've no love for the former Confederacy or Japanese Empire. Never Forget their atrocities, and don't let them forget it either. Fight historical revisionism at every turn.

[@TheoHawk316]

History is written by the victors, but in this case the victors were sympathetic and wanted allies against a bigger threat.

[@Someone42527]

​@TheoHawk316 -and they probably didn't want to upset the holocaust sympathizers in their own countries. The same reason they didn't use the holocaust for anti-aging propaganda even though they found out about it in 1941

[@ronaldfinkelstein6335]

Sparty probably did not mean that the adoption of the Deutche Mark triggered the Soviet blockade of Berlin

[@spartacus-olsson]

I did mean that… obviously it’s more complicated than that, but the event that Stalin used to trigger the blockade was the creation of the West German currency to replace the common regulated emergency currency of both occupied halves.

[@DanielsPolitics1]

@@spartacus-olssonThe event that caused a blockade that would not have otherwise happened, or the pretext to implement an existing plan, driven by an existing intention, to occupy West Berlin?

[@spartacus-olsson]

@ I’d lean towards the latter, but a unilateral statement either way puts a lie to the complexity of world events and forces us into the territory of what ifs, and alternate history.

[@raphaelklijn6358]

Interesting.

[@wolf2912]

We all talk about 20 july coup but those were not a big part of the german Army

[@rbir2653]

You did not mention the treatment of prisoners. The use of concentration camps for soviet prisoners. How do these generals explain what happened to the millions of prisoners? Did they think they were going to a normal prison camp?

[@spartacus-olsson]

But we did mention it… “Also among their number is the former head of the General Office of the Armed Forces, Hermann Reinecke, responsible for the deaths of approximately 3.3 million Soviet prisoners of war. According to Reinecke in September 1941, Soviet troops…”

[@michaelmoran3946]

The most significant atrocities were conducted in Eastern Europe and Russia or to a lesser extent against partisans in the west. From the US veterans that were my coaches, scout leaders and other adult leaders I often heard that regular German soldiers generally behaved themselves. I suspect that since they generally did not see or experience the atrocities first hand it was easier to sell the Clean Wehrmacht myth to them and the US public. It might be useful to remember that around 20% of the US population at the time was of German heritage (including my family” which must have made them a more sympathetic audience to some extent. However, they would often talk about how much they detested the SS and would shoot them when captured if given sufficient provocation. Some of them had liberated Dachau as part of the 45th division and had summarily executed SS prisoners.