How and Where to Install Ground Bars on Panels

[@SparkyChannel]

Wiha Insulated Torque Screwdriver Set, 1/4", 20 to 70 in.-lb.: Amazon: amzn.to/3Lnob7r Also see: Playlist: Electrical Wiring by Sparky Channel: kzbin.info/aero/PLSD43kAzjUITARtRyFqvVhmqwNm34Ck5k Playlist: EMT Bending by Sparky Channel: kzbin.info/aero/PLSD43kAzjUIT9C0yzPTkqULBCmJXX_goh Playlist: 2023 NEC Video Playlist by Sparky Channel: kzbin.info/aero/PLSD43kAzjUISg0qOUMomYe8GH6a_C2xBv Playlist: IDEAL National Championship Competition Videos from Sparky Channel: kzbin.info/aero/PLSD43kAzjUIRfq58lAqj2dXKhTY_8QaDO

[@anthonyelectric6045]

Basically it’s great to see a company that gives you options on where to bolt in the ground bars. Great demonstration Bill👍

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, that is a nice design.

[@ew7679]

Exactly what i needed to know! Short and right to the point, well done!

[@TomK-z1x]

Great part 1 but you should cover bonding that bar to the ground and sizing / routing of the bonding or ground conductor.

[@vicktorpatriot1430]

Nice video. I come across all brands of electrical gear and it is easy to tell that a warehouse maintenance person put in a panel. They put the ground bars are any place and mounted with drill point screws.

[@SparkyChannel]

I do understand, thanks!

[@MC-de6tf]

Good info Sparky! I see questions- the grounding bars are all bonded to the case or frame and do not need wiring jumpers connecting each grounding bar to the other grounding bar. The grounding bars are for equipment grounding purpose- you do not attach any grounded neutral conductors to any of the equipment grounding bars. Thanks. Peace.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks MC!

[@willpartin622]

I need to install a neutral bar at or near the top of the Home main Line load center because home runs are too short, but only see one nub above the main breaker and holes. how would you handle this? Thanks for the great videos.

[@KevinBenecke]

When you put ground bars in, you might as well use the largest you can because it's better to have more than you need rather than end up running out of space.

[@SparkyChannel]

I agree as long as you don't get in the way of your wiring. Then when you add circuits, you have the ground terminals available. Excellent point!

[@KevinBenecke]

@@SparkyChannel The thing is because of where they get mounted, you usually have to fight with wiring anyhow to be able to get to these bars because of how deep in the box they are. We usually have to fight with the black wires going to the breakers and white wires on the neutral bar to be able to get under all of those to get to the grounding bar. And quite often you have to snake the ground wire through the spaghetti of wires to get it down to the grounding bar.

[@SparkyChannel]

@@KevinBenecke Good points, thanks!

[@Jeff-Lawrence]

Hi Bill from Sparky channel As always another fantastic video Always something new to learn from you Thanks for all your hard work putting these videos together

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Jeff! 👍

[@wingman8447]

Always good stuff. Thank you.

[@SparkyChannel]

No problem, thanks!

[@timsobolewski8793]

Exactly what I need to know! Thanks.

[@SparkyChannel]

Glad it was helpful!

[@toddstefanski4994]

The EXACT information I needed.

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent!

[@rab125]

If there is no indicator for location for ground can you just add a terminal anywhere

[@tedmcdonald3377]

Good info Bill 😎🛠️😎🛠️😎

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Ted!

[@mr.trevino.4356]

The first ground bar has the ground wire coming from the main, but what about if I want to install a second, how will that bar be grounded? Do I need to run a green wire between the 1st and 2nd bus bars ???

[@salmazzei5882]

In theory the box that first ground bar is attached to becomes grounded. But I wouldn't rely solely on that. So adding the appropriate size jumper between the 2 is in order. I'm sure you could search for the specific code related. Solid bare copper would be my first choice.

[@AaronVillatoroLuna]

Great video Bill!

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Aaron!

[@AaronVillatoroLuna]

You’re welcome!

[@natebrunet1700]

Had an inspector red tag for adding a ground bar. Stated it voids UL listing for electrical panel.

[@AuditAmplifier]

...but the manufacturers specifically include anchor points for them 🤦

[@raymondlee3414]

The Inspector was an idiot.

[@peep39]

Good, simple information. Well presented.

[@SparkyChannel]

Glad it was helpful!

[@kenbrown2808]

5 hole ground bars make a great intersystem ground terminal for a communications cabinet.

[@SparkyChannel]

Hi Ken! That's excellent attention to detail, I love it!

[@Jesse58761]

@sparky channel if my panel is grounded and bonded together…. If i was to add an additional bar does it need to be connected to the originals neutral/ground bar?

[@matthewh8461]

Yes that would be considered your main bonding jumper as well so size accordingly

[@garydudgeon]

Great video Sparky.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Gary!

[@89Ayten]

And remember to only bond ground to neutral at the closest point to service entry!

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, great reminder!

[@im2yys4u81]

First point of disconnect.

[@marcel.r.f]

Hi, I would like to know waht is the model of the meter you installed? and the load center?

[@solarpall]

Good tutorial right here!

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks!

[@johnflood6656]

Can I run grounds to the plugon neutrals if this is a main (first and only ) disconnect panel? Mine is. Since neutrals and grounds are bonded here what would make me add ground bars if I have enough spots left on my neutral bars

[@wolfrojo8940]

Always useful information.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Wolf!

[@eraldsallaku1759]

Hi, can you please make a video on how to make multiple bends 90degree bend

[@bigoak7010]

Perfect.‘thank you for posting

[@SparkyChannel]

My pleasure, thanks!

[@stevesbudgettools8053]

If there are multiple ground bars in a sub panel, do they need to be connected together? or does one ground the entire panel by being screwed in so that the second bar would also be grounded?

[@SparkyChannel]

The metal body of the panel connects the ground bars. That's why the fasteners that connect the ground bars to the panel must be torqued to manufacturers specs.

[@misaelmartinez87]

Does that applies to the main panel also if I want to add an extra ground bar since the one I have is already full?

[@SparkyChannel]

@@misaelmartinez87 Yes, it does apply.

[@misaelmartinez87]

@@SparkyChannel Appreciate your expertise knowledge being taught to people that want to learn more. I am a rough carpenter but love learning other trades and sorts of jobs...

[@ledepart.design]

Hi, I have a Nema 4x enclosed CB. It came with neutral lug. How is ground lug or bar installed?

[@mars1952]

@02:41 That panel should have been installed upside down so the feeder wires are not in the way of everything on the lefthand side of the box.

[@SparkyChannel]

I agree.

[@Noneya777]

A 15 amp breaker I have with very little load keeps tripping. Changed a potential faulty outlet as well as the breaker and it helped for a day and a half but keeps tripping. There is no ground wire to the breaker or the ground bar next to it. Thoughts?

[@SparkyChannel]

See my video: Storytelling by an Electrician: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hmepd3R-lqh4Zsk for some ideas.

[@MrAlejandro787]

Hey for you with best torque screwdriver

[@weloveups831]

I have a homeline plug in neutral being used as a main panel. No ground bar came with new panel. It is my understanding my grounds can be installed on the neutral bonded panel bar. I must have only one neutral per terminal. Is this correct, or do I need to go purchase a separate ground bar. Thank you for all your videos

[@jefflinsk8032]

My understanding is ground an neutral must not be bonded in any place but the initial place if disconnect which is generally the main panel. So subpanels should have separate ground and neutral. I think lol...not an electrician.

[@normalhuman9260]

If it is your main panel,and not a sub panel,I would add a separate ground terminal even though I would bond it to the neutral. Inspectors like seeing the grounds all on one terminal,and neutrals on another, but bonded if it's not a sub panel.

[@edwincastaneyra2220]

Good video Question, how do you ground a subpanel... Do you install grounding rods like the main panel, or how to do it...?

[@concerned_2023]

From what I understand a subpanel attached to the same structure as the main panel doesn't need a ground bar. Ground is connected to the main panel's ground.

[@im2yys4u81]

It depends on the location of the subpanel. First of all the feed needs to be 4 wire: two hots, a neutral, and a ground. A subpanel in the same building does NOT need new grounding rods, but by code, a sub panel in a remote location (like a garage) needs it's own ground rods system.

[@adelinawarriner6259]

​@@im2yys4u81we are remodeling an old house (built in 1900 no idea when electrical was added but some is still 50/60s cabling) the house is a 100 amp subpanel as is the barn with main 200 amp shut off and ground at the pole.. we only have 3 wires coming in hot neutral and ground .. in a county with NO codes.

[@im2yys4u81]

@@adelinawarriner6259 What you have are two hots and a neutral. My house and garage were wired as you say yours is. My garage is remote so I installed grounding rods to get an earth ground, then pulled a solid copper wire into the panel. For the sub inside my house I had to pull a 4th wire from the main to the sub. The neutral and ground are bonded in the main panel, but by code are required to be split in the sub. If you have no code you can get away with it, but I like to err on the side of caution.

[@adelinawarriner6259]

@@im2yys4u81 so pull a 4wire when I replace the wiring

[@BobJackson-zv1fh]

Great video.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks!

[@elc2k385]

Hello Bill, what is your preferred method of removing the enamel and paint for a good ground bar contact?

[@SparkyChannel]

You don't have to. The screw, tightened to the correct torque, provides the ground bar contact.

[@colemanelectric]

It is not the ground bar touching the panel that is the conductive path, the conductive path is the ground bar touching the screw and the screw threads touching the bare metal

[@mikemiller9030]

My inspector thought ground bars don't need paint removed. However...a ground LUG, a single blocky connector for big wire like 2/0 needs paint removed behind it for sure.

[@emilyyang7087]

If I use more than 1 ground bar, should I specifically connect them together by some bare copper wire?

[@normalhuman9260]

For 200amps you need more than one ground rod. You must use a rod that is 5/8 inch thick,not 1/2inch. The ground wire must be solid and all one piece. Run it to the first rod,connect it with an acorn connector,and loop to the next rod without cutting it at the first. If your rod is 8ft long,then space the two rods 8ft apart,if you are using 6ft rods,then space them 6ft apart. The acorn connector has a valley on one side,and the screw on the other,always run wire on the side with the valley,not the screw. So if your project already has one rod,if it's half inch, replace it,if it's 5/8inch then use the one rod you have, but don't use the ground wire that runs to it, because to add another rod,you'll have to add longer wire,and you cannot have a cut,even if you are spliced at the first rod, it has to be one piece from the panel,all the way to the last rod. Hope this helps.

[@jefflinsk8032]

@@normalhuman9260I don’t the the question was about the grounding electrode…I think he said bar when he meant bus. He’s asking do the two ground buses need to be tied together. Or are they bonded by the box itself they are screwed into.

[@normalhuman9260]

@@jefflinsk8032 oh ok. Well bonding the bus bar for ground and neutral is a simple rule to follow. If at the primary disconnect "aka the primary breaking panel" then the ground and neutral are to be bonded,with a fine course screw, and have at least two threads in contact with the panel. If you are at a sub panel "aka not the primary disconnect" then you are not to be bonded until you are back at the primary panel. Rather than running a wire in the panel box to bond,you should be using the appropriate bus bar and neutral and ground will bond through the panel box itself. Most modern panels have a specific green screw,that if torqued down to spec will bond the two,and if left untorqed will leave it unbonded. Hope this helps.

[@normalhuman9260]

@@jefflinsk8032 also,I have an uncle who has a name almost exactly like yours. I thought that was interesting. Have a wonderful day,and thank you for pointing out my misunderstanding about the question. I'm better with my hands than I am with my words,lol

[@concerned_2023]

What is special about a ground bar. I purchased a Siemens spa panel with ability for extra branch circuits. The ground bar is unfortunately extra. I have an another panel from another manufacturer that was used for parts for that brand. Why couldn't I drill some holes for that grounding bar?

[@im2yys4u81]

According to UL and the NEC, ANYTHING you install into the panel has to be approved for use in THAT panel. That's because that particular device has been tested and approved for that particular panel. Just because you can make it fit doesn't mean it's UL or NEC approved.

[@heads_together_crypto2422]

If the ground and neutral are bonded can I put the ground wires on the neutral bar?

[@ericandes4288]

Yes as long as it's not a sub panel

[@heads_together_crypto2422]

@@ericandes4288 why wouldn't you bond the box if it's a subpanel?

[@ericandes4288]

@@heads_together_crypto2422 It's not up to code (NEC) to bond the ground and neutral on a sub panel. From a safety aspect you can cause a shock. In the past tho they would absolutely bond the two but they stopped doing that in the 80s. The panel would still work but you create additional resistance. It's more of a just in case honestly. Consult a local electrician for more info.

[@heads_together_crypto2422]

@ericandes4288 can you describe a scenario like that? I have the subpanel grounded to its own ground rod as well.

[@ericandes4288]

@@heads_together_crypto2422 If it was already done that way I would leave it. It's probably grandfathered in. Don't go messing around with it. In the rare event your house is hit with lighting your home has no clear path to ground since it's bonded to neutral. This can cause anyone using an outlet or touching your panel at the moment of lighting hit to get shocked. Again it's super unlikely so I would leave it be. Since you have a ground rod it's weird they bonded the neutral bar and the ground bar.

[@brandenparnell4897]

Can neutral wires also go to the newly added ground bar?

[@jeremybaylor5816]

not if its a sub panel, grounds and neutrals can only be connected together at the first means of disconnect.

[@brandenparnell4897]

@@jeremybaylor5816 yes this question is about the main panel. I do not have a sub panel at all anywhere.

[@jeremybaylor5816]

@@brandenparnell4897 oh ok, well then grounds and neutrals are bonded at the first means of disconnect. the bonding screw will tie everything together. so if its not a sub panel then yeah you can.

[@luissonoma6255]

@@jeremybaylor5816 and if it’s not??

[@mikemiller9030]

Don't do it. You can only add Ground bars to a panel, not neutral bars. So only attach ground wires. If your existing neutral wires are too short to reach the neutral bars I am pretty sure you can make them longer using wire nuts and a bit of white colored wire of the same awg.

[@misaelmartinez87]

Mr sparky I want to install an extra 20 amp dedicated breaker for my welder and while opening the panel notice the ground bar is full although the neutral and breaker space still has space how can I solve this?

[@SparkyChannel]

Is this a main panel which is the first panel of disconnect?

[@misaelmartinez87]

@@SparkyChannel yes it is..

[@misaelmartinez87]

I don't have a sub panel just the main which is outside the house...

[@mikemiller9030]

20 amp for a welder?? I would make sure you don't need 30 or 40 amp...

[@misaelmartinez87]

@@mikemiller9030 yeah it's not a big welder bought that to practice my welding skills and also installed a 30amp 240 receptacle to buy a bigger welder once I refine my skills with the smaller welder..

[@chrisb8870]

Im looking for ground bar for old outdated Crouse-Hinds panel. Im aware that Murray bought Crouse-hinds and then Siemens bought Murray so I would think Siemens is my way to go. I just dont think they left the little dimples like todays panels so is tap and thread or own our only options? Is this code/manufacturer compliant?

[@BigmoRivera]

😉👍🏽⚡️⚡️

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Bigmo!

[@willschultz5452]

I have never seen anyone ever use a torque wrench to tighten anything on anything electrical before 😂. They just tighten everything by feel

[@SparkyChannel]

It's 2017 code. Really just coming into wide usage.

[@willschultz5452]

@@SparkyChannel Yes I know there are specs for quite alot. I just never see anyone actually do it. I think im going to start doing it myself though 🙂. I like all your attention to detail Bill!!

[@SparkyChannel]

@@willschultz5452 Thanks! IMO attention to detail is super important to electrical wiring.

[@Ishootback239]

Didn't know that either till about last year lol

[@SparkyChannel]

@@Ishootback239 Right, a lot of people still haven't heard about it. See my video: 2020 NEC Article 110.14(D) (With Examples) Torque Specifications: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q5upq4h3rK53ptU for the actual NEC codes, etc.

[@RJ-ej1nr]

Succinctly and well covered as always! Love having the ground bars in the most convenient location for minimal clutter. Remember that torque rating is only for attaching the ground bar. Wires have their own chart based on their size.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much! Excellent point. I have a video on that: How to Know What to Torque a Breaker Terminal to?: kzbin.info/www/bejne/enrJl5ylodmEkM0

[@timdyer7692]

Nice information, Bill and well done video! Keep up the excellent work!

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much Tim!

[@windward2818]

If we look at the design of the load center you will notice the twin neutral connection bars on either side of the breaker outputs. This is a good selling point because the hot wire terminates at the breaker output and the neutral directly below it, with that particular branch circuit wiring entering at the same position as the circuit breaker output. So, when the branch circuit enters the load center near the breaker there is a very short and straight path from panel entry to the breaker (hot) and neutral. We should then extend this approach to terminating the EGC in close proximity to the branch circuit entry. So, ideally you should see a ground bar the same length as the neutral bar on either side (for side entry branch circuits) and one at the bottom of the load center for branch circuit bottom entry. This way when a branch circuit enters the panel it is terminated at the entry point for HOT, NEUTRAL and EGC (Green), so the branch circuit wires do not have to route within the load center itself, making for a very clean installation. This is why with the load center shown in the video you see the three distinct ground bar bolting positions (indicated by the ground symbol), one on each side and one at the bottom. Because these are machine threaded to accept UL listed Square D ground bars, the enclosure can be use to splice together the grounding bars (if the attachment screw is torqued to spec) regardless of how many are used. So, as stated in the video, given the relatively low cost of the grounding bars, they should be used in such a manner as to clean up the panel internal wiring.

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent points. Thanks!

[@jotnarymir1393]

Can you add a ground bar to an older panel that does not have the pre drilled holes?

[@SparkyChannel]

I made a post on this channel to answer your question.

[@CurtWelch]

Great video, thanks! I have a question about using multiple ground bars maybe someone can help me with that. On a 200 amp main panel with split ground and neutral (they are joined at a service disconnect), the 1/0 ground wire needs to be bounded to an installed ground bar right? If two ground bars are installed, say on left and right sides, does the enclosure provide the needed electrical ground path between ground bars, or must a jumper be run between the two bars? And does it need to also be 1/0 or something smaller? And on a related question, can the 1/0 ground wire be unwound, and wound as two separate half-sized ground wires, one going to the left bar, and one to the right? Is that a code problem?

[@johnnywadd7960]

Bill you know of a way to monitor the circuits with BR type breaker's?

[@SparkyChannel]

Eaton BR breakers have diagnostic trip codes designed for complex occurrences and overloads. AF/GF breakers are equipped with a red diagnostic LED that blinks a repeating pattern, from 1 to 6 blinks, indicating the cause of trip. This pattern is the “trip code”. The LED will blink the trip code for 30 iterations after being turned back on. See: www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/low-voltage-power-distribution-controls-systems/circuit-breakers/br-circuit-breakers/br-and-qb-dual-purpose-arc-fault-ground-fault-circuit-interrupters-td003011en.pdf

[@johnnywadd7960]

@@SparkyChannel I'm looking for a energy monitoring system to monitor electric usage on each BR type Breaker circuit. Anything you can recommend?

[@SparkyChannel]

@@johnnywadd7960 I don't think they have that with BR breakers, just troubleshooting. They may have other device(s) that do though. I would contact Eaton for that.

[@luissonoma6255]

Something I wished that I seen was how I’m I supposed to bridge the neutral bar to the ground bar? I ram across a mobile home that has an updated panel but whoever installed it didn’t even place a bar for the ground. It’s literally all just in a knot to the aluminum ground. 🤦🏿‍♂️

[@SparkyChannel]

Here you go: In Which Panel are the Neutral and Ground Bonded?: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqTPYoeQqt19ptk

[@perezai]

This video was indeed very helpful and also free of any "Sparky's Code" Violations 🙂. As always, the manufacturer's instructions can provide the How-To, but @Sparky Channel along with the feedback from the mass of experienced viewers on here continue to showcase the best practices and how to handle real-world pitfalls anyone may encounter. Thank you!

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Drew. Excellent point about how the viewers add a lot of their experience and knowledge in the comment section!

[@perezai]

@@SparkyChannel It just would not be a community without the community 👍 Hey I sent you an e-mail, not sure if you check it often.

[@luissonoma6255]

Not sure if you have a link or could answer. When should the ground & neutral be linked at the main or could it be done at the sub panel or when are they not supposed to be.

[@SparkyChannel]

See: In Which Panel are the Neutral and Ground Bonded?: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqTPYoeQqt19ptk

[@luissonoma6255]

@@SparkyChannel Thanks!

[@Mrdealornodeal618]

This was very helpful. Thank you

[@SparkyChannel]

Glad it was helpful!

[@tannerbushey9196]

I use Eaton groundbars way longer with more spots to use, bigger the better use 2 self tappers and your good to go just make sure it's tight for a good bond

[@jarphabib]

Self tapping screws are prohibited from being used for grounding.

[@SparkyChannel]

We need to follow the manufacturer's directions and they specifically say what screw to use.

[@jarphabib]

While generally true, manufacturers do not have carte blanche to ignore code. 250.8 (A) Permitted methods of connection of grounding and bonding equipment. Equipment grounding conductors, grounding electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers shall be connected by one or more of the following means: (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two threads or are secured with a nut (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two threads in the enclosure. By specifically identifying machine screws and thread-forming machine screws, coarse threaded screws like drywall or sheet metal self tappers are excluded. If a coarse threaded screw was included in a listed assembly, it would only be allowable within that assembly. The ground bar kits are not exclusively included with the panel, they are available for purchase for general use and thus they must meet the general restrictions of the Code. The #8-32 thread forming machine screws included with those ground kits meet those requirements.

[@tannerbushey9196]

@@SparkyChannel understand and try to but sometimes you have to do what works. I've come across poorly made boxes where screw hole is compromised, bad threads, stripped out it might not be by the book but it does work

[@im2yys4u81]

You're violating code. First of all because it's against code to mix and match parts from different manufacturers. ANYTHING you put in the panel HAS TO BE approved for use in that panel. Secondly, self tapping screws are a definite no-no.

[@ehabrabadi120]

Can i use a self drilling screw to install the ground bar

[@SparkyChannel]

We need to follow the manufacturer's directions and they specifically say what screw to use. For Homeline and Square D, it's like the one I'm using at 3:31

[@kenbrown2808]

you cannot. you can use a thread cutting type screw sized #10-32, unless the bar is shipped with a larger one. (ground bar kits usually come with the screws.)

[@SparkyChannel]

@@kenbrown2808 That's true. I actually put up Sq D's statement about how they want the holes drilled if necessary as a post on my channel.

[@kenbrown2808]

@@SparkyChannel yes. It led me to the video.

[@SparkyChannel]

@@kenbrown2808 Interesting!