How Are Vecna And The Mind Flayer Connected In Stranger Things Season 4 Volume 1

I review, breakdown and explain how Vecna and The Mind Flayer are connected in Stranger Things Season 4 Volume 1. I review the characters and give my theories and predictions on the characters powers and how they both work together.
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[@BrainPilot]

Correction to the video, got my dates mixed up! I should have said 1979, not 1983. Apologies!

[@terrywest111]

But they showed that time does not pass normally in the Upside Down. This is why it appears to still be in 1983. I thought that it was just a mirror dimension to our own. That everything in our world is mirrored in the Upside Down. But obviously something else is going on in the Upside Down.

[@linkeron1]

@@terrywest111 I always thought it as an alternate universe that was taken over by the mind flayer when that universe hit the 6th of November 1983. Eventually Vecna was pushed in by Eleven, and then she opened another gate 4 years later.

[@aidenk1708]

@@terrywest111 time still passes normally. If it was frozen in time, we would see duplicates of people who entered the upside down more than once. I'm pretty certain that for some reason the world was "copied" when the 1983 gate was opened.

[@frank-yp9br]

I know I noticed that

[@linkeron1]

@@aidenk1708 It’s an alternate universe/dimension with an earth that’s taken over by the Mind Flayer. It’s not a copy. “The Upside Down is an alternate dimension existing in parallel to the human world. Most, if not all, flora and fauna present in the dimension are linked together in a hive mind controlled by the Mind Flayer, essentially forming an enormous superorganism.” -the Stranger Things fandom.

[@idreesjhazbhay4683]

My theory is that Vecna didn't attack previously as he feared Eleven's retaliation, knowing that she could defeat him. Once she lost her powers he thought it safe to attack

[@demoryuksan8973]

That's the best explanation I've seen so far. I think that would be the best bet.

[@vinceyrankings]

Very nice theory!

[@vanessamuliya3294]

This makes sense

[@SeoulDaddy09]

If this was the Snyderverse Vecna is Darkseid and 11 is Superman?

[@AJReyes7039]

Or maybe like what Thanos did, after sending his armies and failed. *"Fine, I'll do it myself"*

[@Synthesyn342]

I found it so interesting how he was connected to everything. Not only was he Henry Creel, but also 001, AND Vecna! I’ve loved this season so far! I’m getting a lot of comments about correcting this, if it’s not clear enough, Henry Creel, 001 and Vecna are all the same person. That’s what I said.

[@BrainPilot]

Same here! I was really impressed with how they did the reveal.

[@alexfroelich3404]

If we have a theory that 11 created the upside down - then Vecna is technically the first ever creature?

[@jw1049]

@@alexfroelich3404 I was wondering about that as well, since time in the upside-down seems frozen at the moment when El opened the gate Edit: My bad, got my dates mixed up. Still feasible though

[@TheRetroManRandySavage]

@@alexfroelich3404 I thought 11 just opened the gate to the upside down?

[@josephsennese8919]

I thought that too and makes a lot of since actually since it is frozen when it was first opened

[@shiny5068]

imo either vecna created the mind flayer or the mind flayer gave him his powers as a kid. that would explain his fascination with spiders as a kid, seeing a big cloud spider monster as a god. or maybe that’s the reason he made the mind flayer to look kinda spider like

[@EpticityOG]

No Dustin bascially confirmed Vecna works for the Mind Flayer meaning Mind Flayer has existed for eons possibly

[@ulysses2162]

I like where you're going with that... your first part that is, that Vecna created the Mind Flayer.

[@bhnjmk8898]

the upside down existed since the dawn of time as a parallel dimension and the mind flayer has been in it since it was made as the primordial entity of the upside down. p sure the mindflayer just influenced his mind when he was a kid which is why he was obsessed with spiders

[@trence5]

I think him getting "pushed" into the "Upside down" augmented Creel's abilities and the Mind flayer made him a "general" persay.

[@travisscottlover911]

​@@ulysses2162 if he did that would be stupid as fuck. the mind flayer has been hyped up as a God since s2. if the writers pull a "well actually he's just a bad guy not thee bad guy" it would completely suck donkey balls

[@treytilley333]

Eddie was such a great addition to the series. I wasn’t expecting another character that’d I really like. Along with 001, the twist was very well done.

[@BrainPilot]

Yeah too right! Well said.

[@muchanic]

Every season has one new character that I like - season 2 had Max, season 3 introduced Robin and now Eddie Edit: in season 2 we got also Murray

[@tjcochran4641]

Fans called it out ages ago it wasn't much of a twist and more of a confirmed fan theory

[@trident5523]

I agree. Stranger things does something shows can't ever seem to get right and that would be adding great characters. Eddie is a fantastic character (I'm surprised it took so long to get a rock and roll type of dude in an 80s themed show) the actor plays him magnificently, and he became a fan favorite instantly.

[@superfelinethegreat]

@@tjcochran4641 no, it was victor creel that they thought was vecna

[@GamingGuruGabe]

I think a lot of people tend to forget the Duffer Brothers have used HP Lovecraft for a lot of inspiration with Stranger Things. It has already been stated by Dustin that Vecna is sub servant to the Mind Flayer. I theorize the Mind Flayer has always existed in the upside down and is a cosmic entity like Cthulhu. Once EL opened the gate and banished 001 there the Mind Flayer became aware of our dimension and seeks to destroy it. I do agree with the theory that perhaps the Mind Flayer saved 001 as they had mutual interests with destroying humanity.

[@christiancolasito8266]

interesting. I did hear somewhere in season 1 or 2 that the Mind Flayer wants to get to the other world, and turn it into another version of its domain, the Upside down.

[@nitty6977]

You're right !! Well El may be didn't create the Upside down it might have already exist and she was just put vecna into it.

[@benbosco7904]

Why do the literature majors try to bring cthulu into everything? The upside down is literally a direct adaptation of the underdark from DnD. The mindflayer and Vecna even have the same names and MO, down to worshiping a spider God, lmao.

[@mariahlehman9777]

@Ben Bosco, I agree with you that endless Lovecraft correlations are annoying, but in this case, screenwriters tend to draw inspiration from a myriad of sources, and the Duffer Brothers have actually stated that they did draw from DnD, classic 80’s horror movie tropes, and, unfortunately, H.P Lovecraft.

[@Zanders459]

My thoughts exactly. This will be it

[@griffinhaarer5719]

They really outdid themselves this season. I know most people say it every time a new season comes out but I truly think this is the best season yet! The new characters and old characters flow so well together, the plot, the references and so on. And now we finally know how the upside down was even started. It’s amazing. Can’t wait for volume 2 to come out!

[@jacobweatherford4696]

Well we dont know where the upside down came from still we just know that when 11 tossed 1 into it the mindlfayer became aware of another world.

[@griffinhaarer5719]

@@jacobweatherford4696 yep I realized that after I typed it but didn’t feel like editing it 😂

[@Qwnntm]

For me it's 1. Season 1 2. Season 4 3. Season 2 4. Season 3

[@griffinhaarer5719]

@@Qwnntm they’re all good. My favorite show for sure

[@jacobweatherford4696]

@@griffinhaarer5719 still scary as heck though that vecna is opening gateways and might be allied with the mindflayer.

[@iceman10129]

People are missing a HUGE player in the "how does it work" category. And thats Papa. You think its a coincidence that a man gets accused of murdering his family, his son goes into a coma, and Brenner knows exactly to bring him into his lab. Let alone get 16 other kids just like him. He knows how to train them, cultivate skills, battle the other side, all before the main gate was opened. I think we may have a Peter Pan and the Lost Boys situation here with Brenner who could possibly be 000 or the first to ever really make a connection with the other side. Either that, or his character is the most plot convenienced man in the history of cinema.

[@LetsGetitBoah]

I agree with this, plus he always survives somehow, and the kids seemed scared shitless of him despite the fact that technically they could easily overpower him and everyone in his labs. Plus he always seems to know exactly what to say and do.

[@wintertrooper7918]

@@LetsGetitBoah he's a master manipulater he knows when to raise the fist and when to speak softly as clearly seen with 011's bully he tortured the kid infront of the others and they all seemed to know what was going to happen I don't think that was the first time

[@LetsGetitBoah]

@@wintertrooper7918 Good points to me what didn't make sense was that they were still going to try and kill her after that. I mean...did they think he was just going to allow that to happen without any consequence?

[@wintertrooper7918]

@@LetsGetitBoah yeah honestly they weren't very bright

[@safcjoe7062]

I disagree, he brought him in for the same reason he brought eleven in he believed they had psychic abilities and brenner loves a cover up so he was probably watching over and knew he had powers.

[@LeF2Z_]

Season 1 - Demogorgon Season 2 - Shadow Mindflayer Season 3 - Mindflayer Season 4 - Vecna + Demogorgon

[@Zer0Assassin]

And dartagnan and demodog

[@ceiii9287]

more like Season 1- demogorgon Season 2-shadow mindflayer+ baby demogorgon+ demo dogs Season 3- Shadow mindflayer+meat mindflayer+ adolescent demogorgon Season 4-vecna+ demo bats+ demogorgon

[@Tenchua917]

demogorgon are the soldiers, demo dogs are guard dogs, vecna is the higher up general and mindflayer is the ruler of the upside down

[@zeethekidd]

@@Tenchua917 so many people have some how misunderstood this and think the vecna is the big bad and it’s really starting to get on my nerves

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@Tenchua917 .. That's right.

[@kenshin6553]

I think we'll find out The Mind Flayer is somehow responsible for Henry Creel/Vecna's psychic powers and antisocial disorder as a child. I'm thinking he got into young Henry's mind similar to how he possessed Will in season 2 Edit: something else I realized that further makes me believe this theory: the lights flash when 1 uses his powers. That only happens when the Mind Flayer is involved (the lights don’t flash when Eleven uses her powers, same with Eight/Kali)

[@GabesEdtiz]

Possibly, but if that’s the case, how come Will has never shown any signs of possessing powers aside from that one feeling he gets when the Mind Flayer is near?

[@iyerzzzzz]

I think all the 12 kids have become empowered by the mind flayer

[@kenshin6553]

@@GabesEdtiz My theory would be the Mind Flayer chooses what to do with a person's mind depending on what his goals with that person are. In Will's case he only wanted to get into Will's mind so he could spy on Hawkins. It might also have something to do with how early into someone's mental development he gets into their mind. In Henry Creel's case, the MF may have chosen him as a vessel as soon as he was born, and slowly developed his psychic powers over time

[@XxItsYourBoyChienxX]

@@GabesEdtiz probably because he never tried to use his powers, maybe if he was in brennars experiments he wouldve been able to use his powers more

[@II.am.Gold.]

I agree in this case Will is a host for life and since the mind flayer is apart of him it may explain why he low key hates EL.and wants her man lol

[@JOEMCKINLEY3]

A big key that no one is taking about is how Vecna could only stand and watch as Max ran away since he wasn’t hooked up to the tentacles. All he could do was try to impede her progress by making stuff fall in her way. He looked kind of frustrated and powerless, and like she said, it was like he didn’t want her there. Sounds like a setup for a battle between him and 11 in the upside down at the Creel house. She is the only one that can find the Achilles heel there

[@Entrejai]

He really can't damage her or else she will wake up

[@sixstringvibes3335]

I think the reason vecna watched max get away is because he wasn't connected to the mind flayer, therefore could only use his own powers (the falling rocks and that) but we're too weak

[@minuteman1043]

It was made pretty clear the red foggy place was inside Vecna's mind, not the upside down. He was probably in his attic hooked up at the time.

[@foxmoth8010]

That’s also a big indicator that he’s not a part of them but just a denizen of the upside down. He hates taking orders… Why would he ever then?

[@Larissa-sd8uk]

I saw a comment on another video theorizing that one of the thoughts max has is of her and eleven and because he was in Max’s mind, he saw it as well and either spared her because of it or was shocked to see eleven in a normal life setting and just let max go

[@Green_Gold]

Vecna is literally just this universes Freddy Krueger. Which is extra amazing they got Robert Englund to play Victor

[@LetsGetitBoah]

Yup love all the callbacks too. The clawed hand, the taunting he does to people in their visions/dreams, the fact 1 took 11 to a boiler toom before she freed his powers. etc.

[@safcjoe7062]

He's kinda like pennywise as well. It's gotta be some coincidence by the Duffers that they had him have his first kills in 59, 27 years before the year of this season🤣

[@xaoc6084]

@@LetsGetitBoah The Clawed hand has a double meaning. Freddie Kruegers claws and more importantly the all powerful artifact in DnD The Hand of Vecna

[@lottostuuud]

Englund does Vecna’s voice too 👌 horror god 🙌🙌

[@lottostuuud]

@UCWJf5eRnzctD-E4L7DDwQDg ahh I had read somewhere before it was Robert’s voice but worked on of course but guess it was just Jaimie Bower’s

[@Cerfpve]

I really enjoyed how they took Henry's fascination with spiders and ran with it for his Vecna "form": using the tentacles in the upside down as a spider web detecting movement when touched, how he holds his victims in little sort-of-cocoons to feed off. He now IS a black widow spider.

[@darklord3127]

Do you think Vecna is the mind flayer? I’m thinking it’s either that or they are both puppets to something bigger

[@Cerfpve]

@@darklord3127 No, I think the Mind Flayer will be something else. Remember from what we know, the Upside Down was a thing before Eleven pushed Vecna through into it. Unless she created it at the time (doubt it) makes sense for their to be a master of the Upside Down before Vecna.

[@darklord3127]

@@Cerfpve True, I honestly think if the Mind Flayer is still behind it all, he might have a physical form, but he’s hiding somewhere safe in the upside down, one of his abilities could be making an avatar which is the black smoke/particles you see in season 2 and 3, because how else would you be able to kill the Mind Flayer?

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@Cerfpve We are not sure the Eleven created the Upside Down. Even through she has psychic connection with the demogorgon. We just have to find out on the next episodes.

[@Cerfpve]

@@jacobtennyson9213 Yeh I don't think she created it either.

[@theguyfr136]

In my opinion el didn’t open a portal that number 1 fell through into the upside down. What I believe happened is that when number 1 and el fought their powers were so strong and they were both drawing from negative memories (which the show made a point to emphasize they shouldn’t do that) that it eventually got so out of control when she had him up against the wall that she lost control of her powers and opened up his mind and the world as Henry sees it became manifested into a physical place that his physical form fell into, this might explain why when he was falling their was no sense of direction and he was falling endlessly through a lightning storm. It could be possible that lightning storm was his minds electric signals scarring him and eventually he finds a way to manifest physical locations like the floating broken house. Number 1 makes it a point to show el how they are parallels of each other even going as far as put their numbers side by side in a yin Yang fashion. The upside down as we know it is number 1s Mind manifested into a physical parallel reality to Elevens. In which everything is just as cruel as twisted as number 1s world view

[@coreyano]

I can dig it

[@broderickfall]

I'm pretty sure 11 was drawing from a positive memory

[@therockingvolbeat3630]

Firstly she was drawing from the positive memory of her mum saying she loved her. Secondly when max escaped his grasp. She was in his mind, while when we see him hooked up to the tentacles he’s in the upside down. They seem to be two different places, which kinda debunks your theory. The house in his mind is fractured and floating while the house in the upside down is still one structure.

[@YuhNinja]

That's such artistic nonsense. The lightning signifies his electrons. Cmon man. It's just another dimension that already existed, El opened the hole to it, that's all.

[@theguyfr136]

@@YuhNinja el opened a hole to your moms house

[@shizzlewhizzle3861]

Dustin clearly said that Vecna is the "5 Star General" to the Mind Flayer. He is generally informing the audience about the Upside Down throughout the series of what is happening, and he has always been right. The Mind Flayer is the Big Boss. Also, 1983 was when El opened the Gate and when the Demo took Will. Judging by how Vecna's body looks currentely, it's as if the Mind Flayer has taken a long time to rebuild him?. ALso, look at the scenes when he was interacting with the real world. I have no doubt that those tenticles that go inside him is from the Mind Flayer himself assisting him or something. But I seriously don't think Vecna is the one who created the Mind Flayer, I think that is all a coincendence. A theory that I have, is that Vecna is creating a GIANT gate around Hawkins. All of the victims he has killed that are in those poles (I think its called) I have a feeling is building a giant gate that is going to allow the Mind Flayer to enter. Remember, the MF is a MASSIVE monster so it would make sense to have something that grand.

[@ReelJV]

That is a fallacy. There is a wonderful writing technique, where you let your character inform the audience only for the character to be wrong and you get to subvert expectations... Instead, we get a very flimsy reason as to why, what and who Vecna - its all one big accident: he accidentally got pushed into the upside down... pfft.

[@Wynkopop]

Everyone forgets the other locations Vecna killed people will also have gates to the upside down, like in the woods

[@aezurefx]

Vecna does want his own ways with humanity, he has said he dislikes humans and believes they are pests so it wouldnt be surprising if him and the mind flayer are working together

[@Dark_Brandon_2024]

I have a strong feeling that Hawkins will get upside down in volume 2, even the trailer says it: "the world will turn upside down". Already imagining the story arc of the basketball team and other Hawkins' hunting people, they will probably give a good fight to the monsters - this is also how Eddie and that basketball leader team up, or they will see him playing ROCK and assume he is really doing all of it the satan vessel kind of thing :D

[@shizzlewhizzle3861]

@@ReelJV but he hasnt been wrong? I'm not sure what you're talking about?

[@mahammad]

I’m just eager to find out how his body adapted to the upside down, what the heck happened to his nose, if he has eternal life or still is a human, many questions like it.

[@Rakushi_Snea]

Seeing this comment makes me wonder if he haunted Rowling at some point in her childhood 🤣🤣🤣

[@pipehergood]

Yesss

[@justjustin1774]

@Muscle Man yes but a lot more happened after that, he still had his nose hair and plenty of other body parts

[@wintertrooper7918]

I think that when he came into contact with the mind flayer it re configured he damaged burned broken body to be more adapted to the use it wanted him for so he has a normal human life span but as long as he is connected to and is in the service of the mind flayer he will remain alive until destroyed like all creatures of the upside down

[@MerlinBorghuis]

Yeah. I'm a bit confused. Like when did Elle fight him? In her mind or like in the past. Since she send him in the upside down and then he became vecna😂 explain pleeaaaseee

[@memehotep2059]

I think eleven already had a little memory about what happened at laboratory with one and her ..cuz after few years she uses the same escape route one showed her in this season.. the pipe that opens in the woods

[@Lunadish]

And she attacks people the way he does. She's even came close to doing something similar with the eye gouging when she internally blew the brains of Brenner's people in S1.

[@litchtheshinigami8936]

@@Lunadish i don't think he is gouging the eyes out more a case of pushing them in or imploding them

[@Lunadish]

@@litchtheshinigami8936 You're right 😁. I meant it metaphorically.

[@firesong7825]

Subconscious memories probably.

[@kakashiproductions]

Now if you go back to season 3 when Flayer Billy says “ we have been building it just for you” the mind Flayer is referencing itself and Vecna

[@firesong7825]

No, the "we" is a reference to the hive-mind of the flayed, and the "it" being built is the flesh monster incarnation that they built "for [Eleven]" for the purpose of killing her as she's the only threat to them.

[@kakashiproductions]

@@firesong7825 that actually is the case now because Vecna has been there all this time. So when the flayer said we it definitely meant itself and Vecna because they both hate El

[@Scar-Predator]

I'd say that it was actually meant to reference all of the Flayed.

[@InfiniteDreamzxP]

Love the fact that it was Robert Englund playing Victor Creel and somehow connected to a dream world type of monster

[@sujalmilind258]

They already showed us as how the mind flayer is like a Hive mind and everything (from demodogs to demogorgans) are connected to it. I think that the mind flayer is giving his extensions to Vecna so that he can tap into a fraction of the flayer's power so that he can enhance his psychic abilities to search for his prey. Also the question that Dustin asked as why Vecna is able to kill people only through attic is because maybe that's where the creel child got his first connection to the mind flayer. We have seen that there are some particles and energy disturbance in certain places in upside down where it also affects the real world. Maybe that attic is one of them. The most important question remains as why the time is "stopped" or why Nancy said that they are in the past? Because if the time is really stopped in the upside down then it all makes sense as why Vecna didn't appeared before. But is they are in past? Then it would interesting as how they will show us the answers related to it. This season gave many questions but unlike before it gave answers also to the previous ones.

[@big_beech3062]

The time is frozen at 1983 because that's when the upside down was first linked to reality through the portal Eleven made. That's why everything had frozen, including Nancy's science notes from season 1 episode 1. I don't get why people think the mind flayer gave Henry Creel his powers when he was a kid when the upside down couldn't have existed yet. Or maybe it had existed since the dawn of time as a mirror dimension but the second El created the portal it froze

[@eddiepulaski237]

Voldemort & Vecna 's storylines have crazy similarities!

[@boozledbamboozeler3822]

And similar noses

[@kj_stylin9084]

@@boozledbamboozeler3822 you wrong for that 🤣

[@kangtheconqueror8359]

@@boozledbamboozeler3822 They both are dark wizards afterall.

[@RAYMUFC8]

@@boozledbamboozeler3822 what nose?

[@thedarkfloyd7517]

@@RAYMUFC8 What mouth?

[@ArcanePath360]

Let's all just take a moment to applaud The Duffer Brothers for giving us this utter gem of a show that never disappoints from episode to episode. Before this, Breaking Bad was my most favourite TV show of all time. That is being strongly contested now, and we haven't even got season 5 yet. With everything great about Breaking Bad, it had some filler episodes, and I didn't always like the direction it took, but the twists and turns were thick and drama/acting was second to none. With Stranger Things we have no filler whatsoever. Every episode is a joy and the quality never dips. It is so well crafted.

[@themagikarp9676]

My theory is that Vecna isn't the one who created the Mind Flayer, the upside down world was actually a quiet place, with entities that are one (the Mind flayer). But when Vecna came in the upside down world, he corrupted the Mind Flayer with his vision of the real world. I think, the show will end with Eleven ruling the upside world (she'll change the Mind Flayer again), i dont see any other possibility to end this serie, since if upside world (as it is currently) exist, there'll be always a threat.

[@Dookieman1975]

I think that Vecna actually managed to defeat the mind flayer. I don’t think 1 would agree with the mind flayer’s need to dominate and control everything the way it wants. If the mind flayer wanted to use him or work with him wouldn’t it just take control over him, and 1 can use his powers to fight it. We haven’t seen the mind flayer in the upside down at all so it could be that the show wants us to think they’re cooperating and then hit us with a twist that Vecna is the flayer slayer, or at least managed to take control of it

[@TheArrowedKnee]

I think you're right that "The Upside Down" basically always existed, as implied by Dustin during episode 6 i believe. There was just a never a connection until the 1950s or whatever. However, i do think that the Mind Flayer came first, to paraphrase Dustin, the Mind Flayer is essentially the king of the Upside Down, while Vecna is his 5-Star general.

[@memeplug5849]

@@TheArrowedKnee I completely agree with you because Dustin clearly states in the show that the mindflayer is the bigboss of the upsidedown

[@davidkrapensits4367]

@@memeplug5849 but Dustin is just a kid I'm sure he cant be right about every little thing im almost 100% sure vecna moulded the upsidown to his liking no time no weakness all predatory animals and even made his own apex predator the mind flayer his version of black widows he even stated they were the gods of our world aka he made the mind flayer as a god the apex predator in the upsidown but it failed so he is taking the situation to his own hands he is responsible for everything

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@TheArrowedKnee ... That is correct.

[@dredgenwar2375]

The thing I've loved about this season is the characters' writing addressing things like this. Little plot holes, logic questions, and oddities that the audience notices being addressed or even answered moments later makes me very happy. The big one of these was this. Twice in season four, the Mind Flayer’s connection to Vecna was questioned by the characters, which has truly raised my intrigue of this little concept. Great speculations, my good man. Definitely helping keep that hype up while we wait for season 4b.

[@Sobak2481]

0:07 Actually (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the Mind flayer was actually mentioned a couple of times in the volume, and all times he was mentioned, it was in correlation with Vecna. Dustin I think even called Vecna the 5-star general of the Mind Flayer.

[@ReelJV]

There's no proof - this is a character telling us something, does not make it FACTUAL within the context of the story.

[@LetsGetitBoah]

Or it could be the other way around actually. It's why we are just now seeing Vecna, because the Mind Flayer failed and now he's forced to take action. Mind Flayer was powerful, but I didn't see him running around using his mind to turn people into human pretzels. The only character capable of actually handling him in either the real world or upside down world is 11. If he were to ever make it back to the real world, imagine the damage he could cause. You know by now that he's very likely much more powerful than he was as 1.

[@bhnjmk8898]

@@ReelJV everything dustin states is factual. you could keep denying it but the showrunners constantly use him for information abt the upside since s1

[@ReelJV]

@@bhnjmk8898 Again, you fail to acknowledge writing and the many ways it can be done... good for you though. Bet you got it all figured out.

[@bhnjmk8898]

@@ReelJV coping rn ^

[@noemionyoutube]

Just a correction based on my assumption from watching the season. I think when Vecna was trying to claim Max he has been in his own mind. The Creel house in the upside down is different than the red foggy destroyed house. The red one is in his mind, whereas the physical house is where he is hooked up to those things in the upside down. So technically, we have not yet seen him use his powers without the need to be hooked up to those things. Even with Max, he was hooked up to the tentacles in the upside down and the scene with the red house has been played out in his mind. Thats where Max has escaped from. From his mind, not the physical house of the upside down. In the trailer for volume 2 I think Nancy, Robin and Steve will actually try to attack him in the upside down, outside of his mind.

[@elizabethmorin7326]

I agree, I think Max found the connection between his mind and hers and crossed it, which no one had done before and that’s why he was surprised she was in there. If you think about it, Max is the only one whose vision occurred in open space. Chrissy was trapped in her parents’ house, Fred was trapped in the open grave. Max was in the graveyard, and was able to run for quite some time in the vision. Then she saw the red storm and went into it, and that’s how she wound up in Vecna’s mind. That of course begs the question of why did he not trap her in a small space in the vision somehow like he did with Fred and Chrissy, since it seems like he’s in control of the visions? My guess is carelessness honestly, he got cocky because he’d killed a couple people recently so he thought he was powerful enough to not need to physically trap her in the vision. But I’m also curious if maybe Max being able to do that has something to do with her previous exposure to Upside Down-related stuff, like maybe she was able to do that because she knows more about this kind of stuff than the others. Or maybe she was just lucky that he happened not to give her a vision where she was trapped in a small space. Or maybe Eleven is psychically protecting her friends remotely without knowing it, since her powers were never actually gone, so Vecna didn’t have full control over Max’s vision like he did over Chrissy and Fred’s visions.

[@mysticshawty1234]

@@elizabethmorin7326 or maybe because its a bridge between them she can also influence where she can also influence the nightmare, so Vecna doesnt realize hes not in complete control like with the others. I think shes just resistant to mind fuckery bc shes in this group and theyve all seen crazy shit and arent as terrified by it and i also include Nancy in that too bc im pretty sure he did something with her but i need to rewatch lmao. Picking off members of this group is a lot harder than more ordinary people just by the nature or supernature rather of what theyve seen.

[@elizabethmorin7326]

@@mysticshawty1234 maybe, there’s also a good many parallels between Stranger Things and It, so maybe the group is protected by a higher being like the kids in that book were. Part of the reason I love this season so much is because there’s so many different theories possible about it lol

[@ekanastone]

The Flayer is obviously the Boss, The Mind Flayer is the physical manifestation of the upsidedowns hive mind. *Edit: I was wrong...

[@drogadepc]

I disagree. The Mind Flayer doesn't seem to be an intelligent monster, or at least not more than Vecna. All it did seemed like it was following someone else's plan or just acting on instinct. It was fooled by the kids in season 2 and was defeated again in season 3 by the same kids. I think the Mind Flayer needs to seize the minds of other creatures to grown both stronger and more intelligent. But it may become the "final boss" by seizing control over Vecna's or maybe El's mind or something.

[@memeplug5849]

@@drogadepc actually, you are are just a dumbass and didn't watch the show if you think the mindflayer isn't smart

[@morey2187]

@@drogadepc it was a small fraction of the mind flayer they fought in s3, that’s why it was so easy. It was the chunk that was in wills body, it’s clearly way more powerful by the sheer size comparison

[@drogadepc]

@@morey2187 but even in season 2 it wasn't that difficult either. once they figured out how to make Will not spy on them the rest was easy. Except for the part when El had to intervene. I believe the Mind Flayer has to "flay" more victims to be able to learn and become more intelligent.

[@zeethekidd]

@@drogadepc the show literally states that the mind flayer is the big boss and the vecna is below it. The mind flayer is the most powerful in the upside down. The only reason it seemed so “easy” was because the mind flayer was never in the real world it was always in the upside down so all they had to do was close the gate and sever wills connection. If they didn’t close the gate none of that would’ve worked at all and it would’ve been millions of times harder to beat.

[@Zekrel]

I’m so glad I’m not the only one who was wondering where the Mind Flayer was and how it connected to Vecna.

[@nerevarchthn6860]

Mind flayer is the shows main villain why would anyone forget him?

[@Zekrel]

@@nerevarchthn6860 never said that he was forgotten, but he was hardly mentioned and we did not see him at all this season

[@nerevarchthn6860]

@@Zekrel well he is in volume 2

[@Zekrel]

@@nerevarchthn6860 🙏🙏🙏

[@thecrazyfroglifestyle]

so i had this theory *before watching the video anyways*: so every1 who’s been flayed as a host by the mind flayer have essentially been freed, Will had his mom take it out of him and Billy had El. What if Henry/001 got possessed in the 1950’s and no1 knew because they didnt know who the mind flayer was and just assumed he was antisocial. we’ve never seen what the mind flayer’s plan with his host truly was, so maybe he gave him psychic abilities to help him open gates into the real world. Once Henry knew his mother was onto him, the mind flayer had already done the damage such as corrupting his mind, feeding him lies and manipulating him so he killed her and the rest of his family. When Henry slipped into a coma the mind flayer must have laid dormant because he cant really do much if the body isn’t functioning properly. after his coma we saw Brenner take him to do some experiments on him to see if he can replicate his abilities. after taking his DNA or whatever he took when placing on other subjects, he created a connection between the mind flayer and all the subjects which is why El can see into the upside down, and by that time he had a chip installed in his neck because he was getting too powerful, and the mind flayer was creating a new plan to open gates, and who has the same power and psychic abilities as him? oh Eleven, so thats why 001 was protective over her and was slowly manipulating her to remove the chip in his neck so he can regain full power. After getting the chip removed u could see his facial expressions had changed, his eyes were red and his hair was spiked so he harnessed all the years of abuse and pain to become even stronger. His plan had a slight setback when El didn’t agree to team up with him, thats when they had their showdown and Eleven sent 001 to the Upside Down with the mind flayer’s mission failing *successfully* and by that I mean him failing to recruit Eleven to destroy the world but also still opening a gate between worlds. After Henry got sent to the upside down the mind flayer started reforming him into Vecna making him even more powerful and giving him some control over the upside down as well, so he became his 5 star general to get revenge on Eleven and terrorize Hawkins and soon the whole planet by opening gates so the mind flayer can enter our world and bring his army of demobats, demodogs and demogorgons to take over the world. so yea thats my theory, pretty sure im way off haha 😂

[@ricb123]

What's your theory on punctuation?

[@Bedbug451]

Like Darth vader

[@thecrazyfroglifestyle]

@@ricb123 lmao, who has time to check punctuations these days…

[@kamerondowning8294]

Well I hope we get a Mind Flayer backstory especially since he was the main villain for the Upside Down and Vecna is looking like he is the final boss bc he’s not fkin around. I jus hope we get something of story arc for the Mind Flayer bc ik he’s an deity but man I would love to learn more about that scary ass bastard😭

[@bhnjmk8898]

the mind flayer is still the final boss. hes the primordial entity in the upside down so p sure theyre saving him for s5

[@TheDoomSlayer1263]

Well I hope that if vecna is the main villan of season 4 that means he is the thanos or darkseid of stranger things season 4 and 5.

[@rick-mvp9664]

@@TheDoomSlayer1263 it would be strange for him to be the final villian b/c vecna was literally just introduced this season and the mindflarer has been there since the beginning of the show. In the end of Season 3, we were left off a tease/cliffhanger of the mindflarer so I don't think the writers of the show would just put that for nothing. I think the show started with the mindflarer and ends with the mindflarer... it would flow better and make more sense. Instead of just making up some random villian in the final season and ending off with him.

[@neoxfreeworld]

@@rick-mvp9664 not just a random villian tho, vecna fits perfectly into 11's backstory and expalins her trauma. similar to a harry potter and voldemort dynamic

[@kyleenglot9184]

@@neoxfreeworld I see a couple scenarios around Vecna and 11. It's quite apparent that if El learns to draw her powers by using good memories and not from trauma and anger, she will be able to defeat Vecna. Since 001 simply doesn't understand emotions of happiness and love from other people. Her power was strong enough to temporarily block the mindflayer's hold on Billy by using his good memories, which I have a feeling is how Eleven will defeat Vecna... He will either die and be defeated like most villains... Or Eleven will find a way to tap into his mind and allow him to feel things like love and good memories, and in turn will change sides and help the group overthrow the Mindflayer and forever destroy the upside down.

[@Semiotichazey]

So far, I'm not sure if the Mind Flayer is connected to Vecna. I think the main reason he hasn't been taking action till recently is because he was afraid to confront Eleven, but when she left town, he saw his chance.

[@rachael2184]

That makes sense.. but why did he wait a year after eleven was gone?

[@Semiotichazey]

@@rachael2184 Hmm, good point. Maybe he was able to pick up the pieces of the MF after its defeat, and it took him that long to repurpose them? Just a guess.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

The Mind Flayer and Vecna are connected.

[@essaammari997]

The Mind Flayer in Season 3 isn't even the full form. The Mind Flayer is bigger than that so we will probably get a glimpse in Volume 2 or everything will be shown in Season 5 of a full out war.

[@marcelmuller1786]

I thought this is the last season 🤔

[@kdh_0510]

@@marcelmuller1786 nah season 5 will be

[@derekweaver5049]

@@marcelmuller1786 They are going to have a 5th season

[@marcelmuller1786]

@@kdh_0510 for real???? Where is the info please ? :) Because in all trailers or so, I was sure I heard ,,final season“

[@rogermatatall8395]

It wasn’t 1983 when he got pushed in, it was 79. Cause 11 stays with Papa for a few more years before escaping in 83 the night Will got abducted and the Demogoran started taking out everybody in the lab.

[@rachael2184]

All these theories have made me even more confused lol

[@jacobtennyson9213]

It was 1979 when Eleven 011 banish Henry Creel 001 to the Upside Down.

[@jamesmartindale8968]

SPOILER Didn’t expect vecna to actually be the mindflayer. Was expecting the “5 star general” theory to be correct and that vecna would be defeated in volume 2. And the final showdown would be between the gang and the mindflayer. Season 4 ended on an insane level. Season 5 is going to be crazy

[@firebros2363]

I knew all along he was the mind Flayer and yeah it’s going to be awesome!

[@johnschofield4027]

In D&D a 20 was needed to defeat Vecna and 11 was “not enough” I believe 011 008 and 001 will need to team up to defeat the mind flayer in season 5

[@whothefisalys]

001 is vecna tho - and a 20 is needed to defeat vecna not the mind flayer?

[@connman8d617]

Oh wow. I didn't think about that but it was very clear foreshadowing wasn't it? When Erika and Dustin try to defeat Vecna, Dustin rolls an 11 and Eddie announces "not enough." I think that will definitely come back into play later when 11 and Vecna have their rematch. I just think that it will be her friends that help 11 gain the upper hand.

[@aesie1229]

@@connman8d617 i agree it will most likely be her friends and not 001 or 008. i don’t see vecna randomly switching over like that unless he is being controlled by the mind falter

[@farid1406]

@@whothefisalys Will is the 20

[@sammfowler6258]

@@aesie1229 I thought this too, such as with Will in season 1…

[@MELTEDBUHTTER]

i think the mind flayer is the top guy but i also think its possible vecna was helping it with a lot of stuff. like exploding the rats and those people so that the mind flayer could use them to make a physical presence.

[@firesong7825]

Pretty sure the rats were just exploding due to a combination of the mindflayer taking over their flesh, the monstrous flesh that was inserted into them making a mess as it was moving around in their body, and the fertilizer the rats were eating. If it was solely due to Vecna, I would've imagined the blob of flesh being moved around lifelessly/telekinetically, but instead it behaved and made sounds as if it were a creature, which is more akin to the rest of the creatures in the Upside Down that the mindflayer also controls.

[@A4S2HI994]

My final theory on the Upside Down, Henry and Mind Flayer: *Point 1: Upside Down is Henry's Mind* The mind of each person is a dimension itself. The clash of powers between Eleven and Henry was so violent that it opened a direct portal to Henry's twisted mind by physically connecting his inner world with reality and locking him inside his own mind. Henry IS "Upside Down". The name would make even more sense since it would be a mind that contains its own body instead of being a body containing the mind as is normal. In addition, that dimension and its entire ecosystem have always been conceived as a great hive mind, the vines themselves could be a physical representation of his neural network. *Point 2: Henry's Objective* It is known that Henry hated the reality in which he lived and believed himself superior. No wonder he wanted to create a new world tailored to his tastes in which he was a god. According to Henry himself, his victims "live" inside him. It can be assumed, then, that what Henry does is absorb the consciousness/soul of his victims, after weakening, damaging and corrupting them with psychological torture. In this way, by assimilating into his own mind that of his victims, he adds more terrain to the Upside Down by incorporating the dark parts of the people he kills, which, surely, increases his own power. His ultimate goal, probably, is to expand his "ideal world" by consuming the minds/dimensions of everybody and substituting physical reality for his own reality. *Point 3: Relationship between Vecna ​​and the Mind Flayer* If all of the this is true, every creature native to the Upside Down is part of Henry's mind, including the Mind Flayer. In other words, the Mind Flayer could be the representation of Henry's consciousness fused with the corrupted minds of all his victims, something like the true form of his "soul", and Vecna ​​would be nothing more than his physical body trapped inside his own mind. This would explain why the Mind Flayer is shaped like a spider. In fact, Vecna ​​is probably perfectly capable of escaping from the Upside Down but, being Henry's body, Vecna ​​is his only weak point, since if he is destroyed, Upside Down will disappear, so he prefers to stay safe within his own dimension and act from the distance.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Let's test your theory and find out.

[@leonhdg4164]

My theory is Vecna is doing the Mind Flayers bidding for him such as opening portals by killing people, and killing all the kids who have powers, except eleven as maybe he sees something in her. In return the Mind Flayer gives Vecna even more powers.

[@johnthomas1940]

Nah he's killing kids to get more powerful and to open dimensions into our work, he decides to strike since he knows 11 doesn't have her powers

[@Metronomical3]

He doesn’t see something in Eleven he wanted her to join him at Hawkins lab and she absolutely demolished his ass he’s out for revenge against her

[@leonhdg4164]

@@Metronomical3 I think it will be silly if eleven wins one, as he is the original, she is basically a copy, or a small piece of one.

[@leonhdg4164]

@Jaime A. Well 95% of all films and series nowadays always make the good guys win so I wouldn't be surprised, I know lots of people will be mad at it but who knows, maybe they will both die as they were both never ment to be.

[@firesong7825]

Highly doubt 001 knew about the Upside Down prior to Eleven pushing him into the dimension.

[@alienmoosestudios]

Great Breakdown! Thank you for sharing an awesome video!

[@crashboredom2]

At the end of season 3, the mind flayer absorbed the part of him that was stuck in El's leg. That's qhen she lost her powers. So the mind flayer may have absorbed some of El's powers/DNA. When vecna connects to the vines(probably also the mind flayer) he can use part of El's powers to punch holes into the real world. That's a power vecna doesn't have on his own, or he would have done it a long time ago. So I believe they are using that DNA/powers from El to do so now.

[@admiralmelon8239]

Bruh that’s actually smart but he could also be hooked up to the mind flayer like he said in the vid. Either way very good theories.

[@dodongobongo4794]

That is actually pretty plausible

[@fidelsyrianoudis]

Well the thing is we don’t necessarily know for 100% fact if number 1 was able to do this as well or not because remember he was only “free” to use his powers up until he was like 10 years old and also he deliberately kept his powers hidden to keep a low profile so he wasn’t trying to go all out because he knew that would draw attention which he didn’t want to do. I find it hard to believe that 11 a clone of 1, the original could possibly be that much stronger than he was/is I think that the mind flayer in a way is playing a similar role to the doctors at the facility did in dampening his powers because just like them he knows that he cannot completely control him either so he is giving him some powers to be powerful but at the same time making him just weak enough that he cannot rebel against him

[@pablopicasso7724]

well vena aka henry creel somehow had powers bask when he was a child so i doubt his power is from el

[@crashboredom2]

@@fidelsyrianoudis noone said she was a clone. They gave her mom a bunch of lsd and other drugs, and she was born with powers. If Vecna had this power, he would not have waited 10 years to use it. He is pissed, angry, and wants revenge. He's super strong, but El is stronger. And El is the one with the power to pop open holes between Hawkins and the upside down.

[@LetsGetitBoah]

My theory is that the Mind Flayer is a creation of Vecna. It's why Vecna is just now showing up, because he pulled a Thanos and said "Alright then, I'll do it myself"

[@ReelJV]

So none of the show would have happened if Vecna never ended up in the Upside Down... some grade A writing there. A whole story is predicated off an accident...

[@paladin61481]

I agree with this.

[@LetsGetitBoah]

@@joeyondakeys Where is it said that he's taking orders from the Mind Flayer though? If anything, it's possible he's been using the Mind Flayer up until the point it got stuck in the real world.

[@rekiu1314]

I hope not it would be kinda trash the mind flayer needs to be the big boss

[@Kamkamkam632]

@@rekiu1314 EXACTLY!! I hope the Mind Flayer will be the big bad (and final) boss. To me, it seems like Vecna would be the pawn that the Mind Flayer is using, or needs the help of Vecna (since Vecna has strong powers)

[@tlamagna319allday]

I also think that the mind flayer has been in some kind of contact with vecna since he was a kid when he first showed up in Hawkins and might be the source of his powers. The Russians said that Hawkins was a weak spot and that leads me to believe it always was and the mind flayer reached out to him and maybe even has been manipulating him most of his life. He might not even know he might think those angry thoughts are his own since they developed at such a young age

[@sgval7098]

maybe the mind flayer has been controlling vecna’s mind since young and vecna which is henry can’t escape like will does as he did not have any help. while papa which is eleven “father” knew it but trying to solve the problem but can’t? so he put the thing to stop him by stopping papa to find solution to stop him by putting one thing that makes him feel weaker

[@mentalward718]

Pretty sure Vecna made everything, considering the scene we see of him first being thrown into the upside-down it appears it's all just a vast wasteland. I'm assuming he shaped it to look just like Hawkins. We also find out that it was formed like Hawkins the first time the demogorgon entered "our" dimension. I'm assuming this was done to better map where he was going to be attacking with the various creatures through the seasons. By the end of season 3 he's able to steal El's powers with the physical mind flayer via that slug it put in her, and is now confident to fully emerge and exact revenge on Hawkins.

[@ArtyMartyD]

Another thing is that time is frozen in 1983 in the upside down. Time, removed as a construct. Just as Henry/Vecna wanted.

[@Stuart.t]

My theory is that Vecna controlled the Mind Flyer in season 1,2,3 and he used its power and tried to take over the world but the Mind Flayer never wanted to do that!! It just wants peace in its world and to be left alone!! The Mind Flayer doesn’t care about taking over the earth or anything like that so I think that In Season 5 when Vecna tries to summon The Mind Flayer’s powers when fighting El, Vecna will be at a weak point and Mind Flayer will break control from Vecna and Since Will is back in the town the Mind Flayer connect to Will and Will is gonna get powers Similar to El & Vecna and he is going to help El defeat Vecna, forever killing Vecna and closing the gate and ending his evil “curse” over the town!

[@XGamin1]

I had something quite similar in mind…

[@william58295]

I like how you mentioned vecna might try to over throw the mind flayer, echoes Tolkien’s work with sarumon secretly trying to overthrow sauron in but terribly lol

[@jcarterla]

I knew that Victor's son was Vecna and as soon as the guard started talking about number 1 I knew that he was 1 and that 1 killed everybody. I did not see that they were the same person. I was expecting a more complex explanation for the clock.

[@litchtheshinigami8936]

i was expecting the clock to be a vessel of some kind

[@duarbmaedh9977]

The clock may be representation that whoever sees it his/her time has come to die

[@callumrock6797]

@@duarbmaedh9977 i agree its just there to show their time is up

[@jakobdeleon1214]

@@duarbmaedh9977 i think it holds some more significance thank just “their time is up.” if you remember the clock was an integral part of Vecna’s childhood and i think the clock being manifested shows that Venca’s mind attacks aren’t one sided. His victims are also given a window into his mind just as much as he is, which is shown when Max and others get into his thoughts, surprising Venca.

[@pedro_diogo]

i know this is a huge long shot but i really want billy to come back. So anyway since we know vecna has a thing for grandfather clocks if you go back to last season when billy was first possessed and saw the clone of himself in the upside down after he wakes back up at the pool you can hear a grandfather clock loudly ticking in the back🤷🏽‍♂️

[@PaulieLauraXombie1331]

The longer he was in the upside down the more hive minded he became, wich is why I think he has all those tendrils leading into some main source they don't go too far into yet. As far as we know hes either the creator of the creatures or hes stumbled into an eldritch world with ancient creatures.. very lovecraftian

[@jaminschmitt]

I feel this season is trying to fill in the gaps of other seasons. For example, how Will Buyers controlled the lights and that anyone in the upside down who is emotionally connected to the someone can hear them. We’ve learned that time time stopped in the upside down when 11 opened the gate in the lab. I this this will play a role somehow in season 5. Also, why is 008 the only one with power that controls the mind rather than matter? All the other children/numbers exhibited 11’s abilities. Did Brenner “find” these kids or were they manufactured? Also, I think they’ve set up a Steve Harrington death by rekindling his romantic relationship with Nancy. 😢 That and because he’s been infected.

[@soaked189]

I think the realised they made a mistake with starting 008’s story line and have just acted as if it never happened. It makes no sense that everyone has the same power other then her. Which is a bit lazy if that’s the case. Also surly 011 first opened a gate when she sent 001 into the upside down, so why is it that time is frozen from the second time she opened a gate?

[@elpainto1]

I did notice in earlier seasons that the upside down seemed to be a copy of Hawkins made at some earlier point in time, based on the fact that everything looked old, and I though most of the cars looked like they predated the 80's. With that in mind, and even the idea that this copy was somewhat recent (dating to when Will had first disappeared), it makes me wonder how Will was able to correlate the Christmas lights with their corresponding letters, since he should not have been able to see the labels they were each marked with.

[@wintertrooper7918]

I think prior to 008 escaping they all were focused on independent skill sets but once it was found that doing such made them less effective for Brunner's goal to shifted to focusing everyone on the same psychokinetic abilities

[@ReelJV]

@@elpainto1 Yup. Just one of the many plot holes arising from S4... sigh...

[@kastryulyaedits5623]

@@ReelJV may you elaborate on the plot holes that came on the surface during s4? I'm really curious!

[@curtiswaweru8129]

Makes a lot of sense....Good job man👍

[@BrainPilot]

Thanks a lot!

[@oo-hk6zd]

i feel like there's gonna be a huge twist in regards to the main end monster and D and D. If you notice every time they play D and D the monsters turns real. also i believe there will be 2 huge deaths with the main characters.

[@VFXforfilm]

Instead of assuming Will is gay, he doesn’t like girls because he’s still possessed by the mind flayer. As his new painting is what he was painting in episode 2. He’s talking about “being different and it being a secret he doesn’t want revealed”. time stopped in upside down when will was taken. Why? Will is the key to go the repeating constant re-appearance of the upside down. Will is going to have to sacrifice himself to stop the connection between the worlds.

[@xaoc6084]

Give us the mighty Beholder as a villain

[@jackburkhardt7]

Just to clarify, you stated at around 2:40 that Vecna was pushed into the Upside Down in 1983. Didn’t that happen on September 8, 1979?

[@sup3rduperadam557]

So why has Vecna been hiding for 6 years? That’s for the screenwriters to worry about

[@pranavgoel9978]

Yep that definitely happened in 1979

[@Luis-ot3iw]

Yep there was definitely a gap between El opening the first portal and fleeing from the lab to soon meet mike and the crew

[@kangtheconqueror8359]

Nope. Henry went into the upside down/eleven opened the gate and will went missing on the same day-Nov.6 1983 .Remeber the upside down is stuck in that date as we saw when Nancy looked at her dairy there.

[@zolij86]

@@kangtheconqueror8359 Wrong. 4x01 shown the exact date of the 001's banishment and it's in 1979. Eleven supress this memory and for 4 years she was the only subject of Brenner (as other children were dead thanks to 001). Upside Down current state is formed when Eleven made contact with the Demogorgon and opened the permanent gate to Upside Down (until she closed it in the season 2 finale).

[@rejeanthomas0324]

I feel like 8 will help her sister 11, her power is pretty busted to counter vecna

[@dreadheadred3k]

This

[@bruhsoundeffect2595]

I think the mindflyer and vecna are having a war, because when the Hawkins crew enter the upside down the mindflyer isn’t present at all which is weird because last season he was hunting them no stop. I think the earthquakes in upside down is the mindflyer in pain, since vecna technically has the same powers as eleven and could hurt the mindflyer. Furthermore I think that’s why vecna doesn’t go anywhere outside the creel house and has a large portion of demobats around his layer, to protect himself from the mindflyer.

[@ReelJV]

Why do ppl think there's no Mind Flayer in the upside down? WE see him at the end of S2 - the Mind Flayer in S3 was the piece that was removed from WIll... S4 just raises a million plot holes... I fear Stranger Things is not as brilliant as I had hoped.

[@nerevarchthn6860]

@@ReelJV how is not knowing something yet a plot hole?? The mind flayer is the main villain of the show we even see him in the vol 2 teaser vecna is just s4 exclusive

[@ReelJV]

@@nerevarchthn6860 Its a plot hole and inconsistent for the reasons I pointed out - can't dumb it down any further... so, catch up. I can't wait for them to explain how the Russians get the piece of the Mind Flayer, between all the Americans getting into the mall and the Mind Flayer being in the mall... and the fire too... I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable explanation why they are able to just put things from the Upside Down on display... pfft... I'm glad ppl like the show, but y'all don't have any kind of critical eye - you're blinded by the spectacle and its a holy-filled mess after S4. Hey, how does Will use the Christmas lights - since Hawkins is stuck in arbitrary 83; how does Will know Joyce painted letters on the wall and set up lights - how the hell did he communicate anything with her? Do tell.

[@nerevarchthn6860]

@@ReelJV literally everything you kust mentioned hasnt been shown yet lmao its like watching aot s1 and pointing out all the „plot holes“ yk stranger things is a mystery series for a reason maybe you should google what a mystery is

[@ReelJV]

@@nerevarchthn6860 lmao they aren't going to show you how the Christmas lights worked you mong... dear lord, you are not worth my time.

[@coryholibaugh8124]

Tbh I think Vecna is the main baddie. I think he created the monsters in the upside down. His obsession with black widows could be inspiration for the Mind Flayer.

[@kirinyardberry1324]

In the show dustin describes the hierarchy so that's not likely the case. I'm paraphrasing but he says something along the lines if the demogorgan is the mind flayer's foot soldier, then Vecna is his 5-star general.

[@ReelJV]

@@kirinyardberry1324 A character giving you information doesn't necessarily mean it to be the case though... Either way, if Vecna created the threat than this whole show is predicated on happenstance and coincidence god awful.

[@kirinyardberry1324]

@@ReelJV That's true but I think given the context we can trust it. The gang often have moments like this every season near the end where someone has an "ah-ha" moment and understands something about the monster, and they've been right so far.

[@LetsGetitBoah]

This is my theory as well. Vecna IMO makes a much more intriuging Main Villain. Mind Flayer is just seemingly a construct, and I agree his spider like form is a tip-off.

[@griffinhaarer5719]

@@kirinyardberry1324 I don’t understand how that dude can say “a character giving you information doesn’t mean the case” like Dustin’s character isn’t reading the exact lines the writers wrote lol. How could we not trust what he says in the show? I think the jrv guy is just making up stuff to complain about the show for whatever reason

[@uriahthekey8647]

They definitely should have planned out stranger things properly from the get go because the opening of gates can only be done by powerful entities in season 4 but in season 1, Demogorgon's were able to do it themselves. If this was still the case then that Demogorgon they had in Russia could have simply escaped but of course this would have made the Russian prison part boring.

[@farid1406]

The Demogorgon in season 1 was special because it made psychic contact with Eleven right as she caused a tear in the Upside Down. This is why it had the ability to make small tears to travel. The other Demogorgon doesn't have this ability because it never made psychic contact with El as she made a tear in the UD.

[@gundummies]

I love this season! The only gripe I have with this season is that 001 transformed into Vecna via the Upside Down's lightning. I was hoping some sort of higher being (like the Mindflayer) would be the one who transforms him and in the process grants him his extended reach with his power. Or maybe the Mindflayer did and the lightning scene was just one of the causes for his transformation. We'll have to wait and see. hehe.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Yes, the Mind Flayer did that to Henry Creel -001 Vecna. It has seen his abilities progressed and made him Its general.

[@Navak3]

I hypothesize the following 1) Vecna is his own faction with his own objectives, which may explain why he wasn't present earlier in stranger things 2) The upside down always existed but Eleven somehow shaped it to a snapshot of our world when she ripped the gateway open, which is why the wheelers house and Nancy's diary is a copy of how it was in 1983 (I.E. when eleven opened the date) 3)We may see Vecna vs the Mindflayer at some point if their objectives conflict. lets see how the other half of season 4 plays out!

[@jacobtennyson9213]

Nate Hindman... There is one problem, Eleven did not escape from the lab until 1983. She did not create the Upside Down as an alternate 1983 chaotic world. It use to be alternate world until the Mind Flayer destroyed it up to 1983. By season four its 1986 but the Upside Down chaotic world remains 1983. It's the past.

[@juxe411]

i think Vecna is connected to every monster we’ve seen so far somehow, i’m yet to see anyone talk about the way he positions his hand, when i first saw it i was immediately reminded of the season 1 finale when 11 kills the demogorgon, he reaches his hand out the exact same way Vecna does when paralysing his victims, then in episode 7, when it’s revealed Vecna is acc 001, he held his hand the exact same way when using his powers before 11 sends him away in literally the exact same way she did the demogorgon in season 1, like the exact same way, scenes are almost identical,i think Vecna isn’t just someone who happened to fall into the upside down, i think he’s a vital part of it

[@sandstinger3454]

My Theory: The Mind Flayer existed in the upside down but at that time the dimension looked like how it did when 001 fell through (i.e full of red lightning and clouds) The Mind Flayer empowered 001 when he was a child thus explaining his psychic powers. (maybe the creel house was above some sort of gateway to the upside down? idk) The Mind Flayer planned to use 001 as a medium to destroy humanity (because 001 explains the same thing to 11 ) When The Hawkins Lab opened the gate, the upside down was transformed into the likeness of the earth.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

No, it did not. The Upside Down use to be alternate world until the Mind Flayer destroyed it up to 1983. By season four its 1986 but the Upside Down chaotic world remains 1983. It's the past. Herny Creel 001 fell through the dimensional tunnel to the Upside Down as he was struck by lightning and was turn into Vecna. In 1979 He is in the Upside Down but at another alternate world while the Mind Flayer is finishing up consuming its inhabitants and making demogorgons and demo dogs.

[@victorvargas1911]

the fact the vecna to me is like an updated freddy kruegar and then have the vecnas first victim be robert england is the best thing ever i hope they take this vecna idea and run with it in remaking alot better nightmare on elm street in the future i love this villain and this season.

[@mateobotello7753]

This theory is very interesting and could also tie to real life Dungeons and Dragons lore, in a somewhat backwards way. You see, Vecna (the D&D one) is one of the most powerful villains in the game, but long ago he had a lieutenant named Kas, and Kas eventually fought and even defeated Vecna. So, in a backwards sort of way, something like this could happen in the show, however, Vecna (the Stranger Things one) is now the lieutenant and the Mind Flayer is the number one boss. I don't know if the Duffers are going for that, but it'd be an interesting way of linking th game and the Upside Down, and I think it would work.

[@BigDave113100]

I think vecna is the main bad guy and the mind flayer is his creation (hence the spider form).

[@drogadepc]

The Mind Flayer may have already been in the Upside Down before One got there and became Vecna but it doesn't seem like an intelligent monster. The Mind Flayer can only communicate through humans and it seemed to be following someone else's plan, rather than coming up with something of its own. Maybe Vecna and the Mind Flayer complement each other: Vecna needs the Mind Flayer to reach the "overworld" and the Mind Flayer needs Vecna to devise the plans and to become both stronger and more intelligent.

[@therockingvolbeat3630]

God I hope you’re wrong.

[@mkn3817]

Upside down existed even before Henry creel..mind flayer is an ancient interdimensional monster capable of sharing powers with minions to do its bidding..vecna might be one of his most powerful minions..there was Billy in season 3

[@BigDave113100]

If I understood the final right…I called it lol

[@therockingvolbeat3630]

@@BigDave113100 mindflayer isn’t his creation he just gave him the spider form

[@cweb9169]

The Flayer is clearly doing something else. I'm not sure what but in the teaser for the second part we see the Flayer's piece in the real world in Russia. What it's doing there we have yet to see. But it wasn't Vecna controlling the Demogorgon in Russia, it was/is the Flayer. They can be allies of convenience or Vecna truly believes in the Flayer's vision of a dead conquered world. We'll have to see.

[@litchtheshinigami8936]

i feel like the upside down is a lot bigger than what we see.. it's implied it's only in the town the main cast lives in but i hardly feel like that is the case.. also the way things look in there make me feel like it's not just any other world but a possible outcome a different timeline so to speak.. the clock and everything and the fact that the upside down is in the past just makes me feel like it's a timeline that is close to the regular one. it could mean that the upside down isn't just a small town but the entire world in this darkened and hellish state. the reason there are no people is because in that timeline they are all dead.. it explains the structures still existing

[@e.xcalibre]

@@litchtheshinigami8936 I'm sorta thinking it's an alternate timeline where 001 succeeded in breaking himself and Jane out, and the two grew so powerful they warped the very reality around them and broke it off from others, twisting it in some eldritch ways to either become the flayer, or a timeline where 011 failed to stop 001 and he fully evolved to fit his powers in a short time

[@alexallen9640]

Interesting topic 🙂👍

[@hellsing1983]

My theorie of what is going to happen: Well... we have seen many things in the series which were inspired by 80's movies and tv shows. Well... there are two significant 80's movies which could be an influences for volume II or even season 5 which is the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Maybe Vecna is a slave of the Mind Flayer just as Darth Vader was to the Emperor. The Mind Flayer has been corrupting his mind when he was young and maybe Henry at the time accidentally contacted him from where it all went wrong. Eventually making Henry a slave of the dark side/upside down. 11 defeats Vecna but has to face a more powerfull Mind Flayer in the next season and eventually Henry is going to kill the Mind Flayer to protect 11. Just a wild theory but entertaining to speculate about it.

[@-AxisA-]

I like your theory very much😁👍🏻

[@allisonl.7687]

I personally think 001 created the mind flare. The other dimension didnt have any city structure or life. It was a red lightening world of landscape. I personally think he created all of it but it is a reflection of his hatred for the world and admiration of spiders that prefer darkness. In his development of the world he created the mind flare (in the shape of a spider) and the dark creatures that are all connected through him. In essence he is the mind flare and he was battling 11 this whole time, just not in a corporal way. He wasn't expecting 11 to open the gate between worlds and it probably never dawned on him to do that himself or how she did it. But he figured out through battling her and even infecting her. He is gaining his strength now to unleash havoc on the world he hates.

[@drogadepc]

Mind Flayer

[@imaginist_girl]

Hi, here after volume 2 released. He created the mind flayer and controlled it. there u go

[@McFlashh]

He didn't create it, the mind flayer (and demogorgans) was always alive even before One got sent to the upside down

[@imaginist_girl]

@@McFlashh true, but he did technically sorta control the mind flayer. k im dumb lol

[@tomdabomb1997]

the amount of videos I've seen that forget the flashbacks are 4 years before season 1 are mad lol

[@bibby42]

Vecna lookin like Swamp Thing.

[@brimfulofyashaonthe4599]

Take this with a large portion of salt but The mindflayer is and has always been Vecna, laying in wait, deceiving the party and recuperating. He was waiting for the right time to strike head on - when El lost her abilities. You can hear the clock when Billy is indoctrinated. The shadow form is just another form Henry creates with his abilities(a nod to IT and pennywise), he sees himself as the spider god in the vent between worlds. He has been using Will, another “sensitive boy”, whilst he wasn’t as physically capable as Billy he is close to the party and can keep a watch on El. He knew when her powers were no more. Will is the Eye of Vecna where as Billy was the hand -( or perhaps the demobeast and tentacles make up the hand- that I’m undecided on). Now my memory on the the module is a bit fuzzy but I’m sure to beat Vecna in d&d you need to have both the sword of Kas and either the hand or eye of Vecna. The sword of Kas could be Brenners Soteria tech? I also think the spires that he is creating in the upside down Creel house is to either create a large gate or to allow him to physically manifest as a spider god, but I’m not sold to either idea just yet. I know Dustin said that Vecna is the mindflayers general but that is his theory with little proof or understanding of either entity - bare in mind the characters don’t see everything we do as viewers. Henry also made a point of describing himself as a loner and solitary, I don’t see him working with/for something else, where as it’s much more likely for him to continue to be deceptive, hiding what/who he really is and manipulating others who he sees as being beneath him. That’s my time, Thanks for staying with me lol

[@mikeamber2528]

Just to point something out, the spires that Vecna made aren't in the upside-down, they're in Vecna's own mind. The Upside down is not a red soup like that lol.

[@acatwithwiskers9273]

I really hope it isn't. I don't want a human looking guy be the big bad. I would rather it be something beyond comprehension not some dead looking guy with a dad bod. Here's to hoping he gets bodied in Vol. 2

[@mikeamber2528]

@@acatwithwiskers9273 Vecna's been an arguably better villain than the Mind Flayer ever was, so no, I hope he sticks around.

[@morey2187]

@@mikeamber2528 only because we haven’t fought the mind flayer in his full capacity only a small 10%, at his best vecna couldn’t defeat 11. It took all of 11s powers to fight the mind flayer off in a small chunk

[@mohsaic3489]

My theory is that eleven created the upside down just for vecna and sent him there. How would she randomly send him to some dimension she didn’t know about unless she herself created. I also believe that the mind flayer is basically an embodiment of eleven since she created the upside down. If vecna controlled the upside down like people are speculating, then why was he getting hurt as he was getting sent there by lightning? And if you remember, eleven is able to close portals. All the portals that were open were closed. So once eleven lost her powers and wasn’t even living in Hawkins anymore, the mind flayer resorted to vecna. Someone who is able to open portals anywhere he kill’s someone. And I see people saying “vecna was fascinated with spiders so maybe he created the mind flayer and that’s why it resembles one” but what if the mind flayer KNEW he was fascinated by them so it made itself resemble a spider? And I know Dustin said that the upside down could’ve been there for thousands of years but it’s not yet confirmed. I just find it odd that Eleven was able to send vecna somewhere she didn’t even know existed. Plus time just so happened to stop in the upside down when Will was first taken back in season 1. If it existed that entire time, why would time just stop? And the tentacles that are attached to vecna look similar to the ones that were attached to Billie in season 3. It’s almost like vecna is also being controlled in some way. Again these are just my theories

[@entropy22]

I think Upside Down always existed, but it started to look like Hawkins after 001 got there. So it shifted into the town he used to live based on his memories.

[@fr4u_keebs604]

The upside down is just a mirror world like they said in earlier seasons, I don’t think vecna did all that

[@entropy22]

@@fr4u_keebs604 maybe they just didnt have enough knowledge about Upside Down in early seasons. But when we see 001 getting there after 011 opening a portal, its just a red place with mountains. He didnt show up on the other side of the underground laboratory.

[@potatopouf]

when eleven banished one to the upside down, the particles that flew off of him reminded me of the mind flayers dusty-ness so idk how the mind flayer got there to begin with but thats how I think they were connected.

[@connman8d617]

I think the secret of the upside down is that it was not always such a dark and twisted place. I think that's all the Mind Flayer's doing. He is an extra-dimensional creature that, once he gains access to a world, completely takes it over and corrupts every living thing there. That's what he is trying to do to our universe, turn it into another updside down. And I think he's been looking for a way into our universe for quite a while and found one through Vecna as Vecna had full knowledge of the kinds of experiments happening in the Hawkins lab.

[@extraplain2412]

One thing that's got me thinking is the small moment in the Vol 2 trailer where the mind flayer seems to be contained in Russia. Now this obviously must of happened between season 3 and 4. Also it's strange that we never saw Vecna in seasons 1 - 3. The only thing that seems to be different is that the mind flayer might not be in the upside down anymore being trapped in Russia. Maybe it was the mind flayers presence in the upside down that kept Vecna in a state of hibernation or just simply under his control or maybe even a prisoner. With the mind flayer gone, maybe Vecna has broke free and taken over the upside down or alternatively he is trying to break through to help the mind flayer. Either way it seems like there's more going on with Vecna and the mind flayer then we've seen yet.

[@ReelJV]

Except this doesn't really add up - we saw the Mind Flayer present in the upside down at the end of S2 - in S3 the piece of the Mind Flayer in Hawkins was the piece that was removed from Will... it makes no sense how the Russians are getting Demogorgons and the like...

[@griffinhaarer5719]

@@ReelJV wdym the Russians opened a gate to the upside down in Russia do you not remember that?

[@ReelJV]

@@griffinhaarer5719 How the hell did they capture a piece of the Mind Flayer?? If that's what happened than the Mind FLayer is a joke and the Russians are the real big bads... LMAO... please, a little more thought before you reply...

[@griffinhaarer5719]

@@ReelJV who even says it’s a piece of the mind flayer? Could be a completely new monster for all we know. But I forgot that’s right. My bad. You’re the all knowing perfect writer so you must know everything.

[@ReelJV]

@@joeyondakeys Is it really compelling for a story, to establish a big monster who remained a threat for 2 seasons and was never officially defeated, to then be captured, off screen by Russians... Whose the bigger threat now? The smoke monster captured by Russians or the Russians who can seemingly take whatever they want from the Upside Down?

[@petermcnamara7040]

This aged like milk

[@Hervebutoyi]

Great video

[@Frexnchy]

From my perspective, Vecna has such strong similarities with Vergil from the Devil May Cry series. Especially Vergil’s arc in DMC 5.

[@eddiechavez9683]

It looks very similar to that I was hoping someone noticed that too The difference of them both but very similar look

[@Frexnchy]

@@eddiechavez9683 absolutely! Even Vecna in his bare form resembles Vergil. His thirst for power/dominance, and the tentacles (similar to Urizen) all scream Vergil.

[@elitescholianclipss_]

My theory is that vecna actually had a connection with the upside- down. If you think about it, Vecna was the first person to have powers. It had to be from the upside down. And when he was getting hit by the lightning, he didn’t have a reaction like he was used to it. Another theory is that since basically vecna knew eleven and knows that she can easily beat him, he decided to attack when eleven lost her powers. Meaning that basically vecna wanted to be stronger that what he was or be stronger than eleven by killing his prey. I know it sounds crazy and weird? 🤷🏽‍♀️

[@zeldabombsquad1144]

Your first theory isn't really a theory, since thats exactly what they showed us when El blasted him through the very first gate. I love your other theory though

[@elitescholianclipss_]

@@zeldabombsquad1144 I didn’t even watch the video lol I just went to the comments.

[@elskeletor3566]

I like your thoughts on this.

[@vishnupriyaramachandrannai3120]

Just now finished watching Stranger Things season 4 volume 2.

[@badnoodlez]

The flayer lost to eleven, so he decided to use vecna to fight fire with fire. Pretty simple.

[@Phosphor_Sco]

😬

[@under-._.-score]

I think Vecna is using El again. I feel like he needs her to get to the other side. I could see there being a cliffhanger where Venca somehow breaks out of the Upside Down

[@KickingMyselfDaily]

I don’t think he needs to get out of the upside down (as it is right now). Why would he leave his “safe” space when all of his needs are met? He is still able to kill people and get stronger, now if they closed all the portals and he wasn’t able to do that, I can see he would want to get out.

[@generalbutterscotch4887]

Whatever happens, I really hope the Mind Flayer doesn't go the same way as Snoke in The Rise of Skywalker...

[@thedestiny326]

Will that happend

[@StarryDynamo88]

Reminds me of Dreamcatcher - how that entity gave those kids powers - it definitely draws from Stephen king Universe- Pennywise- spider 🕷 Different dimensions etc Also loved nightmare on elm street/ Kruger feel of it all too. Loved the Halloween Easter egg in the cemetery - Myers tombstone 🪦 I think. Either way - well done 👍 series can’t wait for part 2

[@tenmrchicken2719]

Doesn’t the mindflayer have a corporeal form? We see it in season 2 a lot when will goes to the upside down and when eleven is closing the gate, we see the mindflayer trying to get into earth

[@AC-ze1nh]

He does. We see it attack Will as well in S2. It looks very similar to his combined proxy body in S3.

[@The-Beyonder]

It's like a mist form, yeah. He seemingly can only possess others in that form which is why when he was in the "real world" he took bodies and eventually made up an avatar by using chemicals to meld the flesh of his victims together to make a form that resembles him more

[@firesong7825]

Sure, if you consider black smoke to be corporeal.

[@brycenelson2226]

Here’s my theory, Vecna likes spiders, Mind Flayer looks like a spider, the Mind Flayer attacked first. Mind Flayer was created by Vecna to take her powers so he could attack

[@mohsaic3489]

Or the mind flayer knew he was fascinated by spiders so it made its self resemble one

[@jacobtennyson9213]

No, he did not. The Mind-Flayer is a pan dimensional evil being that traveled through parallel universes consuming its inhabitants to build up energy for its demogorgons to open portals to other universes and repeat. Vecna is the Mind Flayer's number general.

[@WildcardASMR]

I began piecing together everything from the moment 001 said 'You don't have to be afraid anymore, Eleven', but the 'OH SHIT!' moment still hit hard. Awesome wrap-up for Part 1. As soon as my belated suspicions regarding 001's being Vecna (being Henry, although I didn't see it at first) were confirmed, the realisation that -- oh shit! -- El CREATED the Upside Down after essentially imploding Henry was crazy... And technically, this means Henry/Vecna/001 IS the Upside Down itself.

[@therockingvolbeat3630]

I really hope this theory is wrong. Such a boring and lazy plot.

[@nicolasgenette5774]

There's one or two things, I think that can be extrapolated from what we've seen so far: Vecna connecting the tendrils which are a part of the fabric of the upsidedown is the equivalent to eleven being or putting herself in isolation to travel with her mind. Therefore Vecna has the upper in the upsidedown because it's capabilities are more "harmoniously" wired, better adapted with the context he is in. Eleven's powers can't be as decisive in this season even if she is still kind of the queen (and the king) on the chessboard, she dies then the rest follows. The team is going to have to bring something strong to the table to compensate for that malus. Vecna's weakness like most "wizards" as exemplified with the scene with Max is that he is not robust physically, even a kid can tear through his body. So (but that was kind of hinted at without even mentioning what I did) they have to go through the upsidedown to reach his location and go all medieval on him with or without El. It would be sweet music to my ears if Steve got to knock his head off from it's shoulders but that's just my wishful thinkin kickin in'.

[@byronentwistle8525]

If the vines that vecna connects to is a way of the flayer feeding him extra strength so he can reach into the real world, then wouldn’t that make el more powerful than vecna because she’s demonstrated that she can reach into the upside down and make gates purely by herself?

[@himadri9168]

yeah but when we look at the fight between 001 and 011 we can see that 001 has more control over his powers while el's powers works, most of the time, momentarily..so in a long battle 001 is more likely to win ..

[@KingKong-ux3gg]

@@himadri9168 011 is clearly more powerful the difference is that Vecna can control his powers more simply by the fact that he’s been using them more

[@himadri9168]

@@KingKong-ux3gg yea el is more powerful but she doesn't really know her powers..rn def Vecna is more powerful because he's got control over them

[@niels14gogovg84]

My theory is that vecna created the mind flayer. Hear me out when the first demogorgon took Will, the upside down copied and froze on that day this could mean that after Henry Creel was sent to the upside down and learned how to control the upside down, he planned revenge on the human race and took the weakest first reminding how the first victims were weak and not fully grown adults or something. I also think that Vecna tried to let the Mind Flayer do all the work but that failed so he went back to what worked to get his powers and that is feeding on weak people explaining why Vecna uses trauma on people to make their mind weak. The fact that the demogorgons and mind flayer look weird is because Henry Creel didn’t like the normal human things so why not make something so scary and weird to eliminate them just to give some more fear. Besides in last season finale the mind flayer was a mix of human flesh and six legs which could be linked to the love for black widows by Henry Creel. Lastly it would fit in with the fact that Henry Creel was sent and transformed by the upside down meaning the transformation could have drained his lifepower (little like voldemort in Haryy Potter) and needed to take lives to replenish his powers back to full meaning every season the reason why there was a stronger and stronger enemy is because Vecna gained his power back from all victims ( don’t forget that the russians are just feeding a demogorgon)

[@jacobtennyson9213]

No, he did not. The Mind-Flayer is a pan dimensional evil being that traveled through parallel universes consuming its inhabitants to build up energy for its demogorgons to open portals to other universes and repeat. Vecna is the Mind Flayer's number general.

[@niels14gogovg84]

@@jacobtennyson9213 says who? There is a parallel between D&D and the stranger things universe but I don’t think that the mind-flayer is still present from the group’s perspective they tought the mind-flayer was dead then tought Vecna was the mind-flayer why would he else be connected to the UD controlling and sensing everything in the UD

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@niels14gogovg84 ... I did not write about that Vecna is the Mind Flayer. Vecna is the Mind Flayer's number one general. He works for him according to Dustin from Stranger Things; assembling Its army to invade Earth. This is what the Mind Flayer's main mission since It can't create portals. He has Its minions do Its bidding, but they need lots of energy to do it. Vecna has finally crack the portal physics to open more portals to Earth by invading bad memories of children and took their souls. I watched every last episode of Stranger Things. Before you and anyone else can make theories about the show, play detective first and find clues. Not only Stranger Things is a soup of 1980's horror flicks and melting pot of 1980s American pop culture. I grew up watching 1980s horror flicks and 1980s pop culture. I know what Duffer Bros. did to make Stranger Things available to everyone to see. It's our memories of 1980s American pop culture and horror flicks all rolled up into one. When You watch Stranger Things, you actually watching, Friday, the 13th, Ghostbusters, Star Wars, Neverending Story, Chud, Ghoulies, Goonies, Indiana Jones, Stand By Me, The Stuff, Nightmare on Elm Street. And once Stranger Things proposed season 5, 6 ,7 ect if Netflix allows them. They will finish the rest of the late 1980s American Pop Culture all the way to their characters and villains that will look like Beetlejuice.

[@AC-ze1nh]

I think Vecna/001/Henry is the big bad. The Upside Down already existed but Henry is responsible for the creatures and he's the reason it all looks like Hawkins. Henry has been biding his time, getting stronger, creating twisted creatures to do his bidding, and looking for a way back. Then BOOM El (forgetting she banished 001) makes contact with one of his creatures (which are all linked to him) and Vecna is able to break open a gate using their connection. Since then 001/Henry/Vecna has been trying to invade and bring about his vision of the world order. He's also been kidnapping/killing humans to use as fuel. He did so with Barb and the scientists in S1 then the Flayed in S3 then the victims of S4 (which he used to make gates because El closed his main one) I actually don't think Henry's victims will be truly free until he's killed. I think they're trapped until he's defeated and there's a lot of emotional potential there. Perhaps with the exception of Billy because he used a good memory to break away. Which is the same method El used in her first fight with 001. Love is Henry's weakness because he doesn't understand it. There's just too many hints that Vecna is the consciousness behind the Mind Flayer. Their philosophy lines up, their goals are almost identical, they have the same weakness, and a hive mind can only have one queen B. I think it's likely the powerful psychic, rather than anyone else. It would also explain why Hawkins, why El, and why the timeline from 1959-1986 exists. Also, Henry has stated he loves spiders. The mind flayer is a spider. I think the Mind Flayer is the 5 Star General, not the other way around. Also what kind of big bad is revealed before his minions? I think S4 is the failure of the main team to contain Vecna's invasion. In S5 he has returned and the gang needs to defeat him in their realm for real and not just contain him. Season 4 is the Revenge of the Sith of Stranger Things 😄

[@evelinlakatos9433]

Don't forget guys, the time stopped in the upside down. I think the flayer was send previously because Vecna wanted to attack Eleven.

[@kevinpriest161]

The Flayer could have been manipulating Henry Creel long before he was pushed into the Upside Down by Eleven. Psychic phenomena could create areas of weakened boundary between the two worlds. Also, do we know for sure how long the Soviet's have been investigating the Upside Down? They very well could have been doing so for a very long time before the events in Hawkins.

[@tannerfishalow4894]

Yeah it’s something like that unless vecna made the upside down

[@safcjoe7062]

That's another thing, how did the russians actually find out about the UD?

[@haechiwr]

@@safcjoe7062 Maybe one of the scientists in Hawkins lab was a Russian spy

[@davidkrapensits4367]

@@tannerfishalow4894 it had to be vecna Brenner knows it's all him from hints in the season he knew immediately

[@xenondoro8573]

The clues are pointing towards Eleven taking Vecna's place in the Upside Down imo. At the start of the season it was pointed out that El doesn't feel like she belongs anywhere and how her powers are her identity. Kate Bush's song has had a big role: "If I only could, have a deal with God, I'd get him to swap our places". There's also been discussions about swapping and combining things. The last season could be about El defeating the Mind Flayer in it's own world and El becoming the true ruler.

[@Denza.]

Great Analysis . After ur analysis im starting to believe the Upside down world itself is the Entity known as Mindslayer in which it uses Vecnar as the general to control the creations of the Upside down world

[@DamanKingBear]

This season part 1 was so sick!

[@mohsaic3489]

My theory is that eleven created the upside down just for vecna and sent him there. How we she randomly send him to some dimension she didn’t know about unless she herself created. I also believe that the mind flayer is basically an embodiment of eleven since she created the upside down. If vecna controlled the upside down like people are speculating, then why was he getting hurt as he was getting sent there by lightning? And if you remember, eleven is able to close portals. All the portals that were open were closed. So once eleven lost her powers and wasn’t even living in Hawkins anymore, the mind flayer resorted to vecna. Someone who is able to open portals anywhere he kill’s someone. And I see people saying “vecna was fascinated with spiders so maybe he created the mind flayer and that’s why it resembles one” but what if the mind flayer KNEW he was fascinated by them so it made itself resemble a spider? And I know Dustin said that the upside down could’ve been there for thousands of years but it’s not yet confirmed. I just find it odd that Eleven was able to send vecna somewhere she didn’t even know existed. Plus time just so happened to stop in the upside down when Will was first taken back in season 1. If it existed that entire time, why would time just stop? And the tentacles that are attached to vecna look similar to the ones that were attached to Billie in season 3. It’s almost like vecna is also being controlled in some way. Again these are just my theories

[@YuhNinja]

No, 11 just happened to open a hole in space time because of how powerful she was. It's not like she created the whole upside down, I mean. That's a whole other dimension. The hole just happened to open to the upside down. The mind flayer is a higher being. They talk about how power can open portals or rips in space time.

[@mohsaic3489]

@@YuhNinja yeah I changed my theory since then. I think that Henry (vecna) actually made contact with the mind flayer or vice versa when he was younger, and that’s why he was always in the attic doing his worshipping or whatever it is he did. And that’s how he potentially got his abilities. That’s also why when he’s in the upside down, he has to be connected to the tentacles which are in the attic of his house in the upside down. And if they did potentially make contact when he was younger, then he knows that it resembles a spider, which is why he might be so fascinated by spiders. Also it makes since as to why 11 was able to open a portal, considering all the numbers share Henrys DNA basically. 11 just so happened to be strong enough to actually do it. So I do believe that the mind flayer is the top dog

[@mohsaic3489]

@@YuhNinja and you’re saying “no” as if anything is confirmed. No one knows if vecna, 11 created the upside down or if it was already there like Dustin believes. This is why there’s these things called “theories”