How Bias in the Property Tax Assessment System Plays Out

[@spartahill]

I'm flabbergasted as to why this video, i.e., the most meaningful conversation I've heard this year, only has 107 views and 17 comments at the time of viewing. This discussion is more consequential towards the lives of everyday people than I dare say anything in the current news cycle. I've followed Strong Town for a while now, and I'm happy to make the acquaintance of Urban3. I'll continue spreading the word of your essential work amidst my three-meter zone of influence and know that it is greatly valued and appreciated. Thanks.

[@josephminicozzi3830]

Thank you so much Gerald! I wonder the same thing. Seriously. I think people tend to think the system is more objective and well thought out. But this is only because no one has really taken the time to wade into the morass of process/language/behaviors to "see" the reality that is hiding in plain sight. This is just the tip of the iceberg of work that we're doing with the Racial Justice Coalition, UNC-Asheville, and Strong Towns. There will be more work rolling out, so stay tuned! And share away! Your 3 meter zone is still an influence!

[@Maerra7]

Because complicated things of meaning are understood/valued by small audiences. Parkinson's Law of Triviality.

[@KingLarbear]

And it makes people feel uncomfortable

[@donnaross9275]

Like and subscribe and comment is what we can do to help this content get promoted by the KZbin algorithm

[@CocAcoLaa408]

@@josephminicozzi3830 how would this apply to California? I looked at my neighborhood and noticed the house next door is assessed at $600,000 more than mine? Is this just because we bought ours in 98 and the next-door house was sold in 2021? Not sure if i'd be able to draw the same patterns in CA since prop 13 inhibits property tax which I'm sure plays a huge role in a lack of taxable $$$ in CA. Unfortunatley most of this state is a car-dependent suburban nightmare

[@ballandpaddle]

Wow, this really opened my eyes and blew my mind. Bless Strong Towns for dusting off the truth and shining a bright light on it. Bravo.

[@carmenc3224]

This is an incredible conversation. Currently in an MBA program and I want everyone in my program to have to listen to this!

[@ibrett9912]

When I bought my house we couldn't determine the exact year of initial construction. The original documents were destroyed in a long ago courthouse fire. The year of construction in the current documents is estimated at 1910. Out of curiosity I searched for evidence of the exact year. In that search I stumbled on the redlining maps for my city from, I think, the 1940s. The first time I saw the maps what instantly jumped out to me was that the Interstate highways cutting through the city were place directly in the neighborhoods that had been redlined. It was just so obvious to anyone who had looked at a current map. Other development, such as a hospital, that could take advantage of the devalued land is also placed in these neighborhoods. I will never get over the shock and the shame I felt about my city, especially since nothing is even being considered here to remedy these historic crimes.

[@josephminicozzi3830]

Please read Richard Rothstein's book "The Color of Law". You'll get a lot out of it.

[@TheRealE.B.]

Even if you ignore infrastructure for a second, the guy at the top of the hill is definitely benefiting more from police services. He's the one with all of the expensive sh*t that would hypothetically get stolen if there were no police.

[@snackums996]

We had a similar issue happen with a pipeline. The initial route ran thru some wealthy towns in Mass. Those towns fought (and rightly so) so the Tennessee Gas Pipeline (TGP) diverted that section to lower New Hampshire. That are of NH isnt that well off, there was cheap land to build the pipeline on, so TGP started buying the land. They only thing that stopped the pipeline from coming thru was TGP failed to show it was a net benefit to the towns that would have been in the way. That and the compressor station (over 80K hp in 3 compressors) would have been less than a 1/4 mile from the only elementary school in the area. It was a nightmare fighting it.

[@definitelynotacrab7651]

Thank you for making this video. This is an often overlooked topic in American history of how the abuse of zoning, land taxing, and red lining destroyed "undesirable" neighborhoods and led to a lot of the garbage urban desing we are having to contend with now. I love the comparison with the land value tax or one based around lot size as opposed to valuing what is built on it. This may be the most important video youve released on this channel, hopefully more people will take the time to watch it!

[@knoway35951]

In Michigan, properties are assessed for half of the True Cash Value. Assessors in MI are not allowed to legally sent the values at the sale prices. It’s call “chasing sales” and it’s been made illegal.

[@ActiveTowns]

Loved this video episode, Chuck and Joe! 😀

[@TheRealE.B.]

Structure price per square foot inside of the house is complicated, because all of the expensive stuff is inside of the walls, and value doesn't track with the area. A kitchen that's twice as big isn't worth twice as much. The discrepancy with regard to land area seems pretty indefensible, though.

[@donnaross9275]

Thank you for the videos and I hope more people watch these videos

[@falsificationism]

Wow-it really came together for me in this one. The fight against socialism seems pretty fundamental to the American ideology at the time. SOMEONE had to be an owner class-god forbid we all collectively own something-but we chose WHO got to become the newly expanded landed class. Urban design is profound and reflective. This is contemporary archaeology.

[@bigswings2414]

Another damning thing to me, as a socialist, is the pure hypocrisy of the bourgeoisie and others in the ruling class. They scoff at EVEN THE IDEA of giving everyday Americans a scrap but are totally silent when we subsidize them. Its is the pure capitalist hypocrisy. Their mantra is "Socialism for me but for thee." We give billions of dollars of free money to people who don't need it but if that single mother even asks for a raise she needs to work harder.

[@billwilliamson1506]

Now we wouldn’t want our population to fall prey to nonprofit housing or good transit either would we? Having us ride around in these preplanned routes like sheep! So glad we have our nationally paved roads and all, true individualism

[@falsificationism]

@@billwilliamson1506 lol

[@SolarizeYourLife]

In my city, ERIE PA, they are bias attacking only the low class lower area of city with the code enforcement but not all the city (not even looking at the other half) with every little code on the book...and huge fines with each 'violation'...attacking the lower class...

[@GArails408]

great video, i'd hope one day the urban three team could do an analysis of my hometown of San Jose, CA. I am an undergrad at UC Berkeley studying Geography, Urban Planning, and GIS. Any info on where I can access property tax data to experiment with my own analysis? Joe & Charles you guys rock!

[@josephminicozzi3830]

Here's a tutorial of how I poke around GIS. Maybe this will help? kzbin.info/www/bejne/p3amZaaroLVqhqs Cali is a little more tricky, because y'all have Prop 13, but you still may find issues. Since you have GIS, you can sort properties by "year of purchase" and then only analyze properties that are purchased in the same calendar year. Check out their value/acre for their land as well as their value/sq.ft. for the buildings and that should be a great place to start.

[@zzRider]

33:37 & 49:07 Dang! I wish this channel could get more viewers.

[@coreyhipps7483]

This was a really good watch. Is there a way to scale this for other towns/cities? This seems to be based of already digitized data.

[@strongtowns]

You may be interested in Urban3's other analyses www.urbanthree.com/case-study/ and the Just Accounting Project www.justaccounting.org/

[@timharbert7145]

Are there any examples where wealthy folks requested an increase in their property tax value? Why I ask - every so often, a newspaper prints a story with wealthy people asking to be taxed more than they are. usually, they specifically mention the income tax and capital gains taxes are too low (they feel), but asking for an increase in property tax may be more doable IF it just comes down to them asking to have a higher taxable value. Otherwise, one would have to wait for the federal government or state government to increase income tax rates or capital gains tax rates. that seems a little too much to ask our politicians for. and i don't see wealthy folks hiring lobbyists and writing their own tax increase legislation. but this seems like a great way for individuals to pay more in tax without requiring additional legislation. and it benefits the local governments too. I do realize a lot of these wealthy folks know they won't likely ever have a reason to believe they will ever pay more in taxes and are doing this for positive publicity. but for the rare person who really does want to pay more in taxes, asking for an increase in property tax valuation appears to be an option for them.

[@Willp4139]

54:53 Is there a recording of the presentation given to the county commissioners or was it done in an executive session type meeting?

[@josephminicozzi3830]

Here is the link to the 1 hour presentation that we made for the County's Ad Hoc Committee that was created to analyze equity in the assessment process. Much of this presentation was delivered privately to the County Commissioners, which is why they created the Committee. But the Committee didn't address many of the items we deliver in this presentation. drive.google.com/file/d/1fWCywBgBwjCnkPKyZ958Y-NpGa1mC_sA/view?usp=sharing

[@Willp4139]

@@josephminicozzi3830 Holy smokes it’s the principal himself! Thanks for taking the time to reply, Joe. I actually found and watched the grainy Zoom recording of your presentation on the Engage Buncombe County website. I am disappointed to hear that the committee didn’t really consider your analysis. Keep up the great work!

[@KingLarbear]

This is what we mean by the rich need to pay their fair share.

[@McThrok]

I would appreciate a more detailed explanation of why a tax proportional to area is considered the optimal solution. When considering the infrastructure required for a property, such as roads, sewage, water, and electricity, the cost (or at least length) typically increase with the size of the property's length/perimeter rather than its area. Therefore, it may be more appropriate to base the tax on the property's perimeter or square root of the its area.

[@scottengel9965]

This was a fascinating presentation. You may have said this, but is this a common practice in most cities that the larger and wealthier properties are undervalued? The same shocking if that is true.

[@cjaquilino]

According to the New York Times article they briefly go over, yes. It’s common all over the US.

[@nattygirldred]

Well DONE!!

[@KingLarbear]

I wonder if you've ever heard of Jackson ward in Richmond VA. it was a place of black excellence in this time period

[@Pystro]

I was going to comment that the value per square foot in the mountain top neighborhood being quite low does make sense. A it's out of the way; what kind of services will you find on top of mountains, except maybe for astronomical observatories. B: Of course rich people with large lots would live in an area with low land value. If the amount of land they are buying (for their tennis court and copious amounts of lawn) is an order of magnitude larger than for a household in the center of towns, while they have the same number of inhabitants (and thus similar transportation costs), they would try harder to minimize their land cost than their commute distance, relatively speaking. 11:03 that's the order that I was expecting (except with the mountain top and black neighborhood flipped). But then there was the "*Those* people 'use' more policing resources." statement and I was at a loss for words. That assessor is not qualified for her job. 10:01 Above average running costs do not increase the value. If your economical knowledge doesn't extend that far, then you shouldn't even be a math teacher in Kindergarden.

[@ThePoilty98]

All of the homes that have been under appraised by more then 10% from their recent sale value should, pay back taxes on their properties and or pay extra in the future, and the homes over appraised should receive a check and or pay less taxes in the future.

[@b_uppy]

An argument could be made that the rich properties add more strain to a lot of systems due to storm drain system and cause more downstream flooding though bad practices such as killing soil biota which decreases soil permeability. Impervious surfaces such as rooftops, paved driveways and tennis courts. The rich benefit that way as well. Have you ever done a video on how towns squander rainwater resources with storm drains that shunt water away and dehydrate landscapes? They've shown that rainwater harvesting earthworks including bioswales, etc increase available downstream water resources while reducing flooding, and irrigation costs to landscaping. If streetside bioswales are set up well they reduce pollution, and can also increase food security/decrease food deserts and improve fresh food availability through plantings of trees for veggies (yes veggies), edible leaves, fruits and nuts. Be great to see a video on that. BTW snowplowing hilltop is more precarious and prone to maintenance vehicle accidents.

[@timharbert7145]

well, that, and most wealthy properties are located outside of the city. most cities don't have a NYC billionaires row for example. so just the roads and pipes running to them. in some cities though, wealthy people often have enough clout to have their areas legally carved out of the city that surrounds them.

[@josephminicozzi3830]

@@timharbert7145 That is Biltmore Forest, in a nutshell. Though, there are wealthy folks within Asheville.

[@microcolonel]

Shifting property taxes to 100% land value over some period of time would be excellent. I wonder how much of my life I would lose making that happen in my little city.

[@granthamma]

Is there a distinction between state, county and city taxes?

[@renecaminada5867]

It is not for the first time I think "Their is something wrong about the USA." I am not living in the USA, I am Dutch living in the Netherland Europe. I should not aloud to say something about other nations how they need to rule things. Is it! No, it is not. I should care about my own nation, the Netherlands. And I do. In the way I think, my thoughts goes to the world in a way I would be everyone is living in a fair society. Everyone is paying what they should paid. In this conversation we see that by redlining and decisions made in the past some neighbourhoods are destroyed just because the people whom lives there. In this case and in many cases; black people. That is RASISM. Hee, in the past it was "normal" but we are living in these days, not in the past! Lets change it. But then you told what I noticed as well by myself. The wealthy people brings in their lawyers are fix the things in a wrong way. How on earth people accept it? It is totally wrong some with a 5 million house is paying per acre less then somebody with a 250 thousand house. in percentage terms! If it should be corrected it is not something communism/ socialism is should be how it works when you have more money. The wealthy people have time and money to spend to get lower taxes, the poor people have no time to do so, so they keep going and have hope the government helps them to straight up the system into a fair system that works for all. And over and over again shows, journalists, news items, stories prove me the opposite.. That is really sad. Mark my words; Their will be a moment the USA government can not raise the debt ceiling to infinity. Them whom loan the huge amount off dollars will stop and want something in return. USA is bankrupted.. is it? If towns all over the USA can not pay the bills, then the government can not pay the bills either!

[@carnamate]

Oh yeah! Property tax! this is going to be good

[@whazzat8015]

Surprise, surprise surprise. Just don't take away my white privilege, or I'll put on my red hat and sheets.

[@deusexaethera]

I hate to be "that guy", but can I get a TL;DR, or time stamps for the important parts? I simply don't have enough time in my day to watch this for an hour to find out what the overall point is.

[@CocAcoLaa408]

1.5 speed

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

Sorry, you went from "The LVT is the least offensive" to "Abolish the Property tax" way to quick, those were disconnected thoughts right? Because in opposition to Joe, the LVT really is the perfect tax system.

[@stupideunuchs6513]

Georgism?

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

@@stupideunuchs6513 Among other things, but ya,

[@josephminicozzi3830]

I’m a big supporter and advocate of Georgist Theory, but I don’t think any human system is can be ‘perfect’, however. There will be unintended consequences, and the key is to iterate and move past some of the sloppy systems that we currently have. LVT should be used more often however.

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

@@josephminicozzi3830 I mean, given the video we are commenting on, there certainly can be problems even under an LVT. However, I would say even the worst issues under an LVT are an improvement over the status quo.

[@GArails408]

@@josephminicozzi3830 Joe, any information on how I can access property tax values in the Bay Area, CA? Is there any open data sources you recommend to an undergrad student like me studying Geography and GIS? Your spatial analysis done by the Urban Three team is truly captivating to me! -Gabe

[@KingLarbear]

And people act like this was during the revolutionary War

[@nathang4682]

As an appraiser for a county that uses a CAMA system every day, there are a lot of misunderstandings about how mass appraisal works in this video. I would be happy to detail them but it is a lot but I dont want to put together everything for it to go unread. If someone with ST or a related organization would like to discuss I would be happy to. This was honestly a little upsetting to hear so much misrepresentation of my profession in this video from an organization that I respect so much.

[@musicology101]

Stop calling it "dirt". Jfc

[@PoliticalEconomy101]

Great. (Schaffner, 2020) Hometown Inequality: Race, Class, and Representation (Cox, 2016) The Politics of Urban and Regional Development and the American (Stein, 2019) Capital City: Gentrification and the Real Estate State (Domhoff, 2005) Power at the Local Level: Growth Coalitions (Fainstein, 2011) The Just City (Shaffer, 2004) Community Economics: Theory and Practice (Kelly, 2019) The Making of a Democratic Economy: Prosperity for the Many (Theodos, 2021) Community Wealth-Building Models (Guinan, 2019) The Case for Community Wealth Building (Manley, 2021) The Preston Model and CWB (Barnes, 2020) Community Wealth Building and the Reconstruction of Democracy (Blair, 2008) Local Economic Development: Analysis, Practices (O’Sullivan, 2019) Urban Economics, 9e (Yin, 2012) Urban Planning for Dummies (Seidman, 2004) Economic Development Finance (Shuman, 2015) Local Dollars, Local Sense: Wall Street to Main Street (Roggema, 2022) Design for Regenerative Cities and Landscapes (Flaccavento, 2016) Building a Healthy Economy from the Bottom Up (Marohn, 2019) Strong Towns: Bottom-Up Revolution (Rupasingha, 2013) Locally Owned: Do Local Business Ownership and Size Matter?

[@definitelynotacrab7651]

Thanks for this list, will definitely have to check these out and hopefully they'll make great resources to cite in conversations about these topics.