How Our Property Tax System Robs The Poor to Pay For The Wealthy

[@strongtowns]

Too late to make this change, but I (Mike) was unaware the term fair share was such a politically charged one. In this context, fair share = legal requirement. People need to pay what the law dictates they should pay. Thanks for tuning in, and hopefully that becomes clear when you watch the whole video.

[@aaronfield7899]

It doesn't make sense to pay for something you already have. The Constitution says the government cannot take away your property without due process of law

[@maxchaotic]

​@@aaronfield7899 buddy everyone wishes taxes didn't exist but unfortunately the structure of human society does not yield organizational governments that exist for free. you want roads, electricity, and water? gonna have to pay for the organization that oversees those. if you wanna appeal to the constitution for an argument that taxes are illegal, you are miles out of your depth. you don't have to like it, but it's true.

[@aaronfield7899]

@@maxchaotic there is a difference between pay taxes for something you just bought paying for taxes or something after you bought it. I have no problem with income tax because that's perfect constitution property tax is not

[@MonkeyMind69]

​@@maxchaotic ...One can be against certain methods of taxation, and not be against taxes in general. For instance; Gas tax, which largely pays for all the roads, is a very fair tax. The more one drives, the more gas they buy, the more they contribute to the roads they use. Even if you don't use roads yourself, but trek through the forest to the local convenience store for some milk, you contribute to the roads because the milk vendor rolls their gas costs into the price they sell to the convenience store, which would then get passed onto you. Alternatively, Income tax is people laboring for the government, under threat of force and punishment, if they don't turn over the fruits of that labor (now take a moment to remember what sIavery is). In this context and in my opinion ...everyone's "fair share" is Zero.

[@ortenciafigueroa2782]

Hola.no.entiendoo.de.esos.negocios.asi.espliqueme.en.español.okey

[@nio6297]

My house here in NC was listed for $80,000 for property tax purposes. I complained to the tax assessor that the home is overvalued and I was paying too much property tax. They sent an assesser to my home and he said it was worth $80,000. When I sold my home the realtor told me that $50,000 was the best offer. So, I had to sell my home for $50,000. So, the property tax in NC is completely corrupt and unfair. It doesn't matter if you appeal. They will gaslight and lie to your face.

[@dannydaw59]

Do you have an assessed value and a taxable value in NC? Up here in MI we have the Headlee amendment which says the taxable value cannot go up faster than inflation as long as the same person owns the property. Also if the actual value of the property is less than the assessed value then the owner can dispute the assessed value with the municipality and then a tax tribunal at state level.

[@jalicea1650]

@@dannydaw59 I think most conservative states don't have regulations like up North.

[@greensorrel6860]

@jalicea1650 I lived most of my life in a northern state and the taxes were.exceedinhly high and jobs and income low thus increasing the wealth gap

[@jalicea1650]

@@greensorrel6860 I have family in the South and they get paid next to nothing and barely get any benefits from their state. Northern states have higher taxes, but better overall social programs, education, and depending on where you live decent infrastructure, though the North deals with more issues due to winters. It's all dependent on where you live, what industry you work in and the services provided by your community. Northern states tend to provide better healthcare, education, and regulations which favor working classes. Wealthier people pay more, but due to stability of opportunity have access to better markets which provide better outcomes. Thanks to globalization this is becoming difficult for the North to sustain due to remote work, outsourcing and conservative states undercutting the Northern states industries etc.

[@seanmccay6448]

Same in TX. You can 'appeal' but they just bring it down a couple grand and there's nothing you can do about it if you don't want to go in person and spend a bunch of your time getting nowhere in a court or whatever. Ours is based on market value / comps near our homes. So if the market is stupid like in the bigger cities, you're boned.

[@aquaticko]

This seems like one of those issues that should be national news, with in-depth and systemic investigations into just how rampant the assessment gap is.

[@markk9530]

The wealthy wont care, aka the people who actually have power in this country. Our constitution literally allows slavery(of prisoners) via the 13th amendment, we have the biggest prison population in the world, and it's mostly hidden if you listened to mainstream media. This issue is no different, it will be largely ignored by the neoliberals(both dems and conservatives) in power who benefit from the system.

[@chinchillaruby4170]

Politicians don't run on policy anymore, well RFK might but that's besides the point. As funny as it is watching Pence and Vivek catfight on stage, it is very sad that politicians aren't talking about stuff like this that is actually affecting people's lives.

[@aznosu]

Can't bc they own you and everyone.. happens everywhere and bc 99.99% of us are good fair ppl, all we think is how could someone do this and then just go back to our jobs so they get rich. Welcome to humanity lol

[@therxlord3694]

The problem is the news is controlled by wealthy corporations that benefit from this system.

[@alexandergangaware429]

How is it national news? Nobody was even shot or anything

[@papaasante4994]

This is how the poor pay for all the infrastructure that the rich feel entitled to. As an insult to injury, rich neighborhoods are often flooded with amenities and public services that are denied poor neighborhoods.

[@nerdwisdomyo9563]

Pretty much as long as this countries existed it’s been the poor people putting their blood sweat and tears into work, only for the rich to get the benefits, and of course, a lot of racism “it was gods will we enslave black people/indigenous people to work on are fields” never forget that the country was literally founded on it

[@djliciousicecream7273]

The trade off is the welfare system. They give people the government incentives to keep it going and supposedly to take thier minds off yhe real problem. It just starting to effect more people now. The truth is coming out!

[@redtiger7268]

Some of the "amenities" are paid for by the HOA of the community. They are not "denied" to the poor they are just not attainable to the poor because of the wealth issues in this country.

[@randallbatridge8346]

Note the public services part of the comment, I don't think PapaaSante was talking about HOAs, because that's in addition to taxes....Don't purposefully confuse the issues.

[@discocycle]

​@@redtiger7268that's a separate thing. Plus, we still have these disparities even in places where HOAs don't exist. I only even know about them from KZbin. We don't have HOAs where I live.

[@alanthefisher]

Fantastic video, I remember listening to the Urban3 presentation at the national gathering in person and being amazed that property tax assessment was that screwed up. Hopefully shedding more light on this can get it fixed.

[@strongtowns]

The room was packed! Let's hope this gets in front of the people who need to see it.

[@samueljackson856]

Lol no you tube video is going to change government. If anything the taxes will just get higher. Boiling frog.

[@ttopero]

@@strongtowns I’d love to see a follow up video about the role of the assessor, how to learn what they do & they’re limitations, as well as communities & their assessors that have transformed & improved and/or removed the inequities. This could lead some of us to run for the position if it’s a voted one and know what we’re getting into if we want to be part of the solution. Every state & county/parish is a little unique, but there are common aspects that can be foundational.

[@diogonunes1608]

This is maybe the 2nd video I see on this topic, so please tell me how wrong I am: There's no need to "visit" the homes to assess its value. Visit the websites of national (21 century, era, zillow) and local real estate developers and sellers to get an range of prices. Do the average and apply the tax rate. The problem, according to this video, seems to be nepotism and other personal conflicts of interest in social context and, as usually happens, complacency of the people in power. Start by making pressure on the official assessers to revalueate their homes. If they are forced to show how ylthey decide how much they should pay, maybe they'll have a vested interest in assessing everyone the same way, share that as public data (to avoid close doors meetings) and save tax money in appeals.

[@user-th1pv6ks5o]

@@samueljackson856 People are already getting their state to get rid of parking minimums because of a KZbin video, it is small, but it is something.

[@xparadoxicallyx]

I work in local government and this is a huge problem for our communities - large and small.

[@scottnielsen1553]

A close friend of mine put her house up for sale once the property tax bill hit 10K. She sold the house for about 270K. Across the street were condos. That same year, one unit sold for 50K yet the seller only paid $250.00 a year in property taxes. How does this make sense? Bottom line is you do not really know what a property is worth until you put it up for sale and then sell it. This assessment racket is a scam. It may be somewhat fair in housing developments with cookie cutter houses all the same, but does not work very well outside of that

[@barryrobbins7694]

I saw this problem in Washington D.C. years ago. Longterm residents could no longer afford to pay their property taxes. Many multistory row houses would eventually fall into disrepair to the point that the upper floors were collapsing into the lower level. School district around the country rely heavily on funds from property taxes, making pathways to higher incomes more difficult for residents in low income areas. Then there are people that have multiple homes such as rental properties and vacation homes, homes for income generation or short term leisure. The property tax system is incredibly regressive.

[@yuki-sakurakawa]

Property taxes shouldn't be paying for this. Local sales and income taxes would be less regressive, especially if the sales tax were stepped (0% for essentials, 15% for basics, 30% for luxuries).

[@barryrobbins7694]

@@yuki-sakurakawa No matter how the taxes are collected, there is also a problem with distribution. Kids don’t get to pick their parents income level. Parents with higher incomes can pay for extracurricular music programs, sports programs, and private tutors. Funds need to go to kids that also need such help, but can’t afford it. These things used to be standard for public schools.

[@benzapp1]

At least DC has an income tax. It's much worse in the south (I know many think DC is the South). See Birmingham, Alabama. The city tries to levy an income tax, but has no real way to enforce or collect it due to a dysfunctional state. In Texas, regular people suddenly have $20,000 annual tax bills.

[@barryrobbins7694]

@@benzapp1 Yes, there is always someplace that has it worse. It certainly doesn’t make it acceptable. One can also say that at least Alabama has voting representation in Congress.

[@crazyeight9]

@@barryrobbins7694why should dc have House of Representatives representation

[@andresmolina4879]

What’s the point of buying a house if you have to pay a tax on your property JUST to PREVENT from losing your supposed bought home?

[@zachhebb9603]

Exactly.

[@ShowMexicanoyMas]

That’s means if you buy a house you rent it from the government

[@RobinClower]

I was so confused the first time I got my home assessment in the mail after buying a house. I was super worried, because we bought a $430,000 house, and now it's being assessed at like $300k or something like that. I was freaked that I super overpaid and that I wouldn't be able to get back that much when we went to sell. My wife then explained that those values don't mean anything when it comes to selling your house, they're just for tax purposes, so the lower the number, the better for us. I still didn't really understand why we would have such a discrepancy, but I was fine with it because we already were paying ~$15k in property taxes, so it would have been like $25k if it was taxed at the zestimate rate. It sucks that this seems to disproportionately favor the rich, that's not something I knew about before this video.

[@strongtowns]

Check out the data for your city or country on the property tax project!

[@RobinClower]

@@strongtowns I guess my main question that I'd love to see in a follow up video is "why is there a difference between Zillow's Zestimate/realtors' estimated home selling price, and assessed property value?" I see one comment below talking about freezing assessed prices for seniors, but why doesn't the estimate reset when a house is sold? Why doesn't it keep up with Comps in the neighborhood every year?

[@trashrabbit69]

@@RobinClower Most I've heard is that the assessors estimate is a "purely tax" purposed value, and the one that people actually pay for is the "fair market value" i.e. assessors value based on the general characteristics of the home like square footage, lot and land size, type of home (single family, condo, agricultural residence etc) and real estate agents price based on more abstract factors like say the neighborhoods desirability, average sale price for other homes nearby, certain features (stainless steel appliances! cul-de-sac! HEATED FLOORS!!) In other words: almost completely arbitrary. Like really the line between assessor and FMV is only if you've gotten your RE license. In certain jurisdictions like some communities in Pennsylvania, there IS no difference; whatever the assessor decides the home/land is worth, the RE agent or developer or whomever cannot appraise above or below too far from that value.

[@RobinClower]

@@ShonCzinner it's more extreme than I thought. I pulled the 300k out of a distant memory, I just checked and the actual assessment was $150k

[@RobinClower]

@@trashrabbit69 that's good info, and I'm not arguing with you, but why aren't the two numbers similar and the cities just tax at a lower rate? Like if I'm taxed at 10% for a 150k estimation, 15k a year but the home is worth $450k, why don't they just assess at $450k and tax at 3.5% for 15k?

[@iordserghei]

I just had this happen to me, i bought my property for $120,000 in 2021, tore up the whole house and somehow now its worth $170,000 , visited a fiscal office and got an assessor to come out and re-asses the property and totally agree with me, waiting for a new price assessment as of today

[@darkrebel123]

I just got my tax assessment. It shows a 269% increase since 2019. This means an extra $400/month that I pay in taxes more than I did in 2020, which is 10% of my total income. It's insane

[@maxsteel32]

This unequal taxation also has the added benefit for the wealthy of convincing the poor that their problems come from the government.

[@Kibatsume1]

Only issue a lot of problems do come from the government. My area after the hurricane they won't allow people rebuild their homes because there lot size doesn't meet the new size zoning standard. Government changed the zoning laws to bring in more tax dollar bigger homes increases the value. Many individuals had investors call them less than 24 hours after being turned down for a permit to rebuild. Every time they say they're building affordable housing a luxury apartment sign goes up when they near completion. Government made a deal as long as one or two apartments is dedicated to section 8 housing they can build away. My area rental properties don't have a cap on property taxes For rentals. I have some clients who had their property taxes go up over $7,000 in 2 years on a small property. This leads to rent increase in the area . Keep in mind home values have more than tripled within a few short years. Idiots in my state voted to increase corporate tax. In case you are unaware over 80% of corporations are in fact small businesses. Unfortunately whenever a media brought up the new tax they used names like Amazon, Google etc so people voted for it thinking it only affected large businesses In reality it raised taxes across the board. Tax increases across the board actually helps big businesses small businesses already sell their products higher than corporations many manufacturers give you discounts for large purchases . Corporations can purchase more product getting it at lower prices. Unfortunately the tax increase was the final nail in the coffin for some small stores. They close down now their former business goes to the big chains .

[@greensorrel6860]

Yes they do if not the tax laws would be fair, notice how most politicians become very wealthy on a civil servant salary

[@danbobway5656]

@@shiny8733 the rich buy off conservative politicians to lower taxes on the rich, you will always see conservatives crow about how great having no state income tax is yet they pay wayyyyy more in increased property tax than stated with an income tax which overall has you paying more than just being taxed on income with a smaller property tax

[@finalcut612]

@@shiny8733unfair taxation comes from private interest lobbying, government doesn’t just do things all on its own free of political and economic influences. Taxation and government can be and should be used to make society work better for everyone, it’s private interests that fuck it up.

[@SlickSimulacrum]

This is a poor explanation of the con that is right-wing political narratives and propaganda. The very people who do this in government, are the ones selling it as the problem. Vote for them so they can do more of it, and then tell you the problem is worse and you need them even more. Right-Wing Conservatives are gullible and ignorant.

[@WeighedWilson]

In my area property assessment increases are capped at 3%. That is to protect people on fixed incomes. When a home sells the selling price resets the assessment. My uncle's sold my grandparents home of over 60 years in 2021 and Zillow says that the new owners are paying $4200 versus the $1350 that my grandparents were paying. That tells me that how recently the home was sold plays a huge part in property tax assessed. It also tells me that inflation has been much higher than 3% for decades.

[@knoway35951]

The state I’m in is capped at 5% increase in taxable value from year to year. New home owners are really getting slammed here. I’ve seen people’s taxes go from $3000 to $10000 in one year due to their new ownership.

[@luke6247]

Caps also make things unfair. New homeowners end up paying more in taxes than property owners on the beach in my area. It's not fair.

[@6thface]

Home prices have out paced inflation. This is why people under 40 can't afford to buy a home since pay has not even kept up with inflation. Let alone the insane property value increases.

[@larynOneka8080]

California is capped a 1%.

[@Kaede-Sasaki]

Umm, wouldn't it be better and fairer just to tax per square metre/foot of land? You can have an urban area multiplier (eg ×1.25) in urban areas as opposed to rural, since they get more access to amenities. Never understood this assessment system. 240 square metres is 240 square metres in 2024 and 1994.

[@addiecore]

Judging how political power works, if an assessor were to apply taxes more evenly my guess is they or their elected officials would be run out of office by people with enough money and free time to push to re-enact regressive taxes

[@MsGrowltiger]

All states need to enact laws whereas property is limited to how much it can increase in value so long as the owner does not sell. When someone buys a house for $200K and lives in it, even if it is worth $500K, increasing the tax liability on the owner is, in effect, driving him/her out of his/her house. If s/he could afford a $500K house, s/he would have bought one! Something has to be done. Half of our RE tax goes to pay for public schools. What do we get for that? Uneducated kids. A bunch of paper pushers making more money than actual teachers. Another welfare program as schools (in my city) provide breakfast, lunch, snack and maybe dinner to at risk students. If welfare is NOT addressing hunger, maybe we should address our elected officials and maybe they can take some of the money they are sending to Ukraine and use it to feed our kids.

[@addiecore]

@@MsGrowltiger this is already a thing in Texas. The where we have a progressive tax liability that slowly increases over time as a property's value goes up. If a owner were to sell the their house, the next owner would pay property taxes at the current value of the home. But I think even this is against the point the video is trying to make since by progressively increasing property taxes, you're still regressively taxing poor young people entering housing markets or older poor people transitioning from renting who after a life time of saving can only just start a mortgage. Housing should be decommodized by increasing housing supply by competing with the private market using good quality government subsidized housing that isn't just for poor people. They should be built with mixed income owners or tenants in mind. More supply decreases demand lowering property taxes by spreading the tax burden among more tax payers that aren't paying landlords to just suck up their money as passive income to buy other property, luxury goods and to live off of.

[@omercarrothers7537]

It's not that I don't want to pay my property taxes, but my property taxes are getting so high, it's becoming nearly impossible.

[@Red_crane]

There was a method in history for people to self assess the value of a good for tax purposes. In some areas merchants wanting to sell their goods had to report the value of these goods themselves and pay taxes based on that value. The thing keeping people from underreporting this value was that the government had the right to buy up the goods at the reported price. This system isn't perfect but maybe some aspects of this could be reused to keep things in check

[@joefer5360]

Wow. That is hilarious. I'd love a system like that.

[@caseymurray7722]

That honestly sounds like one of the best ways to deal with taxes in general. Individuals can set their price but they are locked into that value. Although for homes that doesn't work. Possibly implementing an increase in sales tax on the purchase versus the later sale price of a home would work. IE if you buy a home priced at 200k and pay property tax based on that value for 10 years, then sell it later at 400k you have to make up the difference in property tax value in the sale price of the home.

[@xylker]

@@joefer5360 Would you? How does "the government" afford to pay for the goods (your house) at the appraised value? They take other people's money (and yours) to buy the property. And then what? Sell to their "friends" at less than market value, because gov't doesn't need to turn a profit / break even. That's a terrible way to live!

[@c182SkylaneRG]

@@xylker It definitely seems like a system that works better for goods and services, than for real estate. But, in the context of those goods and services, it definitely seems like it's a good way of keeping people honest.

[@fallenshallrise]

Agreed. If your home is assessed for less than it's worth then any buyer should have the right to pay the assessed value plus 5%. And if your home sells for less than the assessed value then the city government should have to make up the difference, or at least rebate you all the taxes you paid at the higher amount.

[@dannyyoung9789]

this is literally happening to me. The tax assessor valued my property at fully twice the value that the real estate agent says we'll get for it. We literally have to sell my house that my family has been in for six generations now because of this.

[@afreaknamedallie1707]

I hope you can appeal it!

[@Matt-zp1jn]

Why not just do some property value “improvements” aesthetics wise in the front yard, back yard, interior, paint radical colours inside or tear up room renovations and leave them in disarray, and get a NEW assessment for much lower?? Remodel the interior to awkward room sizes, bad layout etc??

[@109Rage]

You can try to appeal the assessment with your county. A family member had a half-built home due to running out of money in the middle of its construction, and the county appraisal district was trying to value it at full price, because all they had were pictures of a finished-looking home from the outside. So they appealed, took some photos of the state of the property, which didn't even have any walls inside or working utilities yet, and pointed out how it'd be impossible to sell at the value they were taxing it at.

[@imarchello]

@@Matt-zp1jn with what money?

[@triforcelink]

@@Matt-zp1jnthat will be expensive as hell

[@JoshKablack]

I will never understand how an open market sale of a property doesn't automatically reset the assessed value to the sale price in any jurisdiction.

[@sandypandy485]

Probably because people would "sell" their homes to another family member for little money and abuse the system.

[@mikerooney7600]

In California it does, but unfortunately Prop 13 has caused a host of other problems. There needs to be a sunset provision if we keep it at all.

[@abupinhus]

It actually does, when reassessment comes. They do collect sales data, improvements cost, and etc. One of the problems, that it is not very transparent and no easy way to for non expert to review. Second, is problem of perception. It is relative value of your house to rest of the other houses in town makes difference, not the real value at todays prices.

[@JoshKablack]

@@abupinhus nope. My State uses a base year system. My assessment was fixed before I bought my house and neither my offering price nor the value I used to refinance have in any way affected that assessment.

[@f430ferrari5]

@@mikerooney7600 it only causes a host of other problems from your own viewpoint. There are many benefits from it and it’s not the rich who benefit. These are elderly folks just looking to retire on SS. The greed always comes from the government and it’s workers. Outrageous salaries and pensions. System is rigged to rob from the hard workers and give to the lazy.

[@anomaly2990]

Property taxes in perpetuity is immoral and unconstitutional. We are not home owners, we merely rent. How can you justify seizing a $200,000 home over a $2000 overdue tax? Those homeowners 65 or older should be exempt.

[@FlyingOverTr0ut]

Keep up the great work, Strong Towns. My experiences every day here in LA, from how isolating the city can be, unhealthy and dangerous, and expensive makes me think that the work of urbanism is more important than ever.

[@AQuietNight]

I asked the clerk to explain a value on my tax bill and she proceeded to calculate it. She went through a variety of gyrations and finally figured it out. Showed me how "simple" it all was.

[@jasonjack7349]

"reverse Robin Hood" or in other words " business as usual." Giving money from the poor to the rich is how a class system functions

[@Bmike5117]

The top 10 percent of earners paid 74 percent of all income taxes and the top 25 percent paid 89 percent.

[@denelson83]

It is how _capitalism_ functions.

[@Bmike5117]

@@denelson83 Bottom 40% of people pay negative tax rates they are net receivers of tax dollars. What capitalism does is change everyone from average lifespan of 45 to 80, create the wealth and infrastructure to bring education to billions of people, and put the entirety of collected human knowledge in the pocket of anyone for 25$ a month. What socialism does is starve/purge 100 million people to death to try to compete with the efficiency of capitalism and to stomp out the rampant government corruption that socialism incentivizes.... and still result in a failed state. Good luck with that.

[@someonenotnoone]

That's the great thing about videos like this - you see how poorer people lose what money they do have, and thus can understand why they're not paying much in income taxes.

[@Tehjakeman2009]

@@Bmike5117 Top 10 percent earners also spend a vastly lower percentage of their income on necessary goods like food basic shelter.

[@Madbird95]

The biggest issue is that property tax can force people off of property that they own.

[@saltinodavito2135]

The biggest issue is that the rich are parasites

[@DsVs]

The last thing we need is to make it easier to own excessively large homes imo. Esp with the lack of inventory for reasonably sized homes.

[@scottysgarage4393]

It's none of your concern what someone else owns.

[@greensorrel6860]

​@@scottysgarage4393it is a.concern when large corporations are buying up starter homes and charging excessive rents

[@Georgggg]

The only inventory that cannot be fixed is land. It doesn't matter if home on land is small or big. Its even better when there is big multifamily house, instead of small on same plot of land.

[@wednesdayschild3627]

​@@scottysgarage4393it is if we are paying higher taxes and they are not. That is what is happening. The city people pay the extra costs of servicing the mcmansion neighborhood. If they want to live there, then pay more taxes for infrastructure.

[@ave14401]

I once worked for a real estate developer and can tell you first hand there is loads of intentional secrecy and obfuscation that goes on in the real estate industry to prevent tax assessors from producing a true estimate of the “value” of some of the most expensive buildings in the city

[@munequa81]

Can you share some examples?

[@peterekela6407]

Spill the beans bro

[@9dipstick6]

Why aren't these kinds of video more popular? These are real issues we need to address!

[@josephminicozzi3830]

We are working hard to add more cats and puppies. LOL. Kidding aside, Strong Towns is the epicenter of straight sourcing civic information!

[@Georgggg]

No mercy for boomers with $1M homes who cries about taxes.

[@MzShonuff123]

This happened to us in Chicago (in a Black neighborhood) while they give Lincoln Park those tax breaks. My condo board sued and won, bringing our taxes back down but we had the money in assessments to do that; I’m not sure single family homeowners could do that

[@CheesyToons]

Property tax is evil. The government basically owns your home and rents it back to you.

[@lowstringc]

Any taxation that taxes something that does not earn the taxed person any income with which to pay the tax should be illegal. In our area, people are losing generational farms because their land has been “valued” and taxed far beyond their ability to earn with their farm. A “value” that requires the sale of the property to realize should never be a tax component.

[@RickysPlums]

There’s a simple solution here. Abolish property taxes. Replace with a local sales tax. Everyone wins… except the local governments, which will have to learn how to do more with less $… which is actually a win for the property owners

[@neutral_narr]

Land value tax is the only way. Sales taxes tend to be regressive so I am not a fan of them.

[@adriancrasborn1741]

@@neutral_narr finnally some georgist

[@KM-zu9we]

I’m glad he brought up Illinois. I appealed my taxes twice. Once with an appraiser and attorney and all of the arguments were dismissed. So the next year I did even more research and presented more evidence. All dismissed again. It appears the rules on how homes are appraised are unknown and change. Every home I have ever owned / sold / bought - there’s a pretty standard of price per sq foot of living area. When I compared mine to other homes in the area, their price per sq foot living area was under $100 and mine was over $400.

[@dannydaw59]

A fancy well built new home will get a higher $ per square foot than a dumpy run down house next door to it.

[@mtzzero]

Generally in Illinois the magic number is the median AV/sqft of properties with similar age, sqft, and within 1 mile of the appealed property

[@KM-zu9we]

@@mtzzero there are 0 comparables because of this being a custom build. For financing, the bank appraisers had to go out of county, as did the one for my appeal hearing. I also have 4 wind turbines within 1/4 of a mile and can’t find that really anywhere else.

[@kdrunx9239]

No one should pay property tax. Period.

[@stevearmstrong4561]

Eliminate Property Tax! This is the only fix!

[@earthsteward9]

A very good book on this topic is 'Perverse Cities' by Pamela Blais. Basically high-density areas that cost less for the municipality to provide services subsidize low-density, high-cost areas

[@ParagonFury]

It's a big part of ST's research and stuff people like Charles McMohan talk about; suburbs are basically leeching off of and being subsidized by cities. If suburbs were forced to pay their own way like cities they'd be empty ghost towns because no one other than the rich would be able to live there.

[@Joe-ij6of]

I don't think high-density areas actually cost less... they cost less PER PERSON, which is a critical distinction. A road in a downtown area might cost 3x to repair, but it serves 10x the number of people.

[@hydrolifetech7911]

​@@Joe-ij6ofOP said the same thing but in a simplified manner. Simplifying information is critical to effective communication especially when the target audience are not experts on the subject

[@shaunbava1801]

@@Joe-ij6of Even per person the environmental impact and cost to support density is actually higher. From an overall energy perspective the low density areas are problematic but make no mistake their "needs" from a public service perspective are actually far lower than high density neighborhoods pretty much anyway you slice it. In your hypothetical example the road serving 10x the number of people requires more maintenance and must be redone more often.

[@Basta11]

​@@shaunbava1801 1. 10x usage does not require 10x maintenance. There's something called economies of scale. You don't run a pizza shop with a fleet of home ovens. Dense areas have more infrastructure built to accomodate more people but they also go on in shorter distances. So in expense to benefit ratio, they are more cost effective. 2. In high density areas, the transportation behaviors are different. They take more public transport, walk more, bike more. Which means their contribution to the wear and tear on the public infrastructure is much much less than somebody who drives a 2 ton vehicle everywhere for 2 hours a day. 3. Heating and cooling are the biggest energy uses of any building. Big buildings are more energy efficient in terms of climate control than smaller homes because they have less surface area to volume ratio. This means the flux of heat per volume (and per person) is much less in big buildings. Homes in dense areas tend to be smaller as well. 4. Dense places are more efficient to deliver to. A mail man delivering to a suburb with 50 houses has to travel much longer than in 1 building with 50 units.

[@shawnrosspeters]

This actually sheds light on why property taxes DON'T WORK and it should be abolished. Not only are they not fair in their application but even if it was fair it still screws over most people who's income doesn't grow or doesn't grow at the same rate as property values.

[@coopsnz1]

That everyone as everyone a consumer

[@enjoystraveling]

Also, it’s not fair to farmers, such as small farmers that the property or farm has been in their family for generations, and sometimes they’re barely making a profit, but the value of their land is going up because some subdivisions have started going up near them

[@cmdrobijadah7329]

It's really funny how people think they own their homes and property. You never OWN your property , all you do is lease it from the county. Private property does not exist in the US.

[@mikehughes8023]

@@cmdrobijadah7329 that has absolutely nothing to do with the fraud that is being committed. The homeowner is not the problem here.

[@alvisjenkins1305]

What everyone is not realizing is, that property taxes are the result of exercising a taxable privilege. Property taxes are taxed services afforded by county government government. Many property owners do not receive benefit from many taxed services. Going to county hearings you end of finding nothing will be done to stop taxing property owners for benefits not received. What anyone can do to end property taxes is to forfeit county taxed services. This is done by selling your property privately, not using a realtor, sell to a trusted buyer and then have buyer to turn around and sell back to original owner of which new owner will not record his property into the public record, doing so eliminates the assessor and tax collector having a name and address to send a tax bill to. Just remember though, you give up all county taxed services.

[@carly09et]

First comment: the wealthy can(and will) dispute an assessment, the poor don't - this is 90% of the problem.

[@handymack5324]

People who own properties in poor neighborhoods may be very rich , like landlords of multiple apartment buildings; People who live in upscale communities may not be rich at all, like retired couples who live on savings and social security. It is an outright mistake to tax a property annually based on market value only. The taxable value should consist of two parts; Actual building value that remains somewhat constant over time, and Exchange value which is the sales price when the property actually changes ownership; It’s more fair to charge a one time tax on the market appreciation upon sale, which is more like a profit tax to be shared by all the parties who benefit from the transactions: Sellers, buyers and real estate brokers.

[@cardboard4929]

Just get rid of property tax, it's just rent but mandatory.

[@MarioSpeedwaggen]

Property taxes are inherently unfair because they are completely independent of the owner’s personal economic activity.

[@josephpurdy8390]

Abolish Property Tax

[@sambrusco672]

@strongtowns, I disagree with what you said at 13:59. We do NOT “need to conduct more assessments more often…” We NEED our local tax assessors to post average neighborhood tax ASSESSMENTS 𝙖𝙣𝙙 average neighborhood recent SALES. If all neighborhoods are at the same percentage of ASSESSMENT value to actual MARKET value, then we will know if assessments/local tax collection are done FAIRLY. If not, we have inequity. The tax assessors ALREADY have all of this data.

[@chrisbaker2669]

We should eliminate property taxes especially for primary residents because it is a much bigger burden on the poor than the wealthy.

[@justinfowler2857]

I filed a property tax assessment in Indianapolis. 5 years later I got a notice that a meeting to discuss my protest was scheduled. I had already sold the house at that point. Property taxes jist shows that no one owns anything. Even if you "Own" your home it's not your home. You still owe your yearly government rent.

[@dunggg]

Moral or the story, if you plan to live and retire in your home, you should not be cheerleading for your home value to go up.

[@rockystaatz521]

It’s actually the time when you can actually be taxed out of your home, even if it’s paid off

[@SSGoatanks]

Keeping home supplies low and pricing out current homeowners forcing them to rent or become homeless; what has America become?

[@williamkneen1949]

2% on 200k=4k same schools, same police, and same city amenities 1.8% on 1000k=18k Super regressive!!! This seems super reasonable, not the extreme paragon of injustice that they are portraying it to be.

[@williamkneen1949]

Everybody should just pay for what they use!!

[@lolnyanterts]

@@williamkneen1949 not at all

[@NicholasSeamans]

I live in Texas and I have heard a couple of wealthy people say they "know a guy" for taxes.

[@bradspitt3896]

This is one of those things where it's not necessarily that there's something fishy going on but that you can afford to have a tax guy find all the legal tax avoidance you can. Kind of like being able to hire an attorney instead of a tired burned out court appointed one.

[@NicholasSeamans]

@@bradspitt3896 That is what I meant.

[@philcamp8621]

WHY do they get to tax my PROPERTY to begin with? The tax has already been paid when I purchased it. Thats WHY its MY GODDAMN PROPERTY.. Taxes for infrastructure should be based on USE! Make a USE TAX based on who benefits the most from the infrastructure.! If they are always taxing my property then it never actually becomes MY property!

[@singingway]

I can already hear the opposition to this, "oh but we have to ATTRACT wealthy people and wealthy business owners, by giving them every incentive, discount, and tax break, or they will (dum-dum-dahhh) go elsewhere!"

[@qwerty90615]

When I bought my property, the real estate agent warned me that if I ever caused a fuss with the local authorities that my assessment would be boosted.

[@ebryan1990]

Having a difficult time getting an interview with assessors is pretty telling in and of itself.

[@sinisterdesign]

Eh--it could just be that they're afraid of saying the wrong things, or of having a target put on their backs. There's a reason we don't regard silence as evidence of guilt in this country.

[@miketackabery7521]

We always have to have an enemy

[@bradspitt3896]

​@@sinisterdesignHow could you say the wrong thing when you're just talking about your job?

[@gregorynuttall]

I was just dabbling in the property tax project for my county, and I've got to admit, it's still pretty challenging for me to understand exactly what I'm looking at. It might be helpful to be directed to some examples of people going through their own area so that I can grasp my own situation. Thanks for this. I appreciate everyone doing all this work to help create a better system.

[@gregorynuttall]

We purchased our home for $300k and just found out that it was assessed at $340k. So I am definitely hoping to understand more here.

[@nahguacm]

Land Value Tax would solve this

[@eliottwiener6533]

Doesn't a land value tax still involve an assessment process to determine the site premium?

[@chrispychip6569]

@@eliottwiener6533you are correct but the Georgists are a bit of a religious cult who think lvt will solve all of the worlds problems

[@ulrichspencer]

@@eliottwiener6533 Land value isn't as subjective, since you're not taxing the property atop the land. I should imagine it would be easier to construct a fair statistical model of land values in a city based on factors like proximity to services, infrastructure, etc. With property values, you have to appraise the value of a lot more intangibles like the condition of the property (which truly needs an inspector to make sure there aren't serious problems lurking beneath the surface), etc. I would still expect that it's not strictly easy to build a good land value appraisal system -- and you would still have to contend with monied interests wanting an easy-to-manipulate appraisal system -- but an appraisal system based more on hard statistics and tangible quantities I should expect would be a little less ripe for abuse.

[@Onyx3030]

There still might be regressive appraisals if high value land is under assessed Edit: but yes I agree that land value tax is 100% a huge fix for cities

[@FinneasJedidiah]

It wouldn't really though, because then the wealthy would be taxed even less if their house wasn't taken into consideration

[@edwardmp3682]

I think the subject of "the rich are not paying their fair share' is a distraction from identifying the real problem, which is the very notion that the county rides on the property value is akin to treating the property owners like a hedge fund. The formula is the problem. This basis on property value is a poverty generating mechanism. The Counties should figure out what the total cost to run the services will be, then spreading those cost to all residents, including home owners and renters. Since everyone benefits.

[@sourdiesel2314]

Solution: no more property tax for anyone

[@navall11]

Can someone tell me how property tax is constitutional? The constitution tells us that property ownership is a right, However a right that you have to pay a fee to exercise that right it is NOT a right IT IS A PRIVILEGE. Bought and paid for.

[@peteraleksandrovich5923]

The system IS working...exactly as designed.

[@outoftouchnetwork]

Then it's our turn to destroy it

[@rommelangus]

@@outoftouchnetworksign me up.

[@empressmarowynn]

A few years after I bought my house, in a low income neighborhood, the city increased property taxes by a significant amount. When I went to appeal they had all this supposed documentation about improvements that had been made to my house but none of them were true. I was very confused because my house hadn't been updated in literal decades. Even with photographic evidence that those improvements hadn't been done they still denied my appeal. Luckily I found out about the homestead act which did decrease it some but even with that I'm currently paying about $2,000 more than I did 7 years ago. My pay hasn't increased in that time so I'm having to stretch my budget further and further.

[@teg5135]

Government is the problem. We are supposed to be able to own our property but we pay taxes on our property….ridiculous. Do we own it or does the government? And there is too much waste and abuse in government…I don’t trust them to spend my hard earned money.

[@carlbernard4197]

And starts the downward spiral that eventually stalls the whole economy. Our country is not designed to be able to run like this. That is why things are hitting the shitter really fast

[@LRH143]

Thanks for bringing this information to the public. I wish someone would do the same research on homeowner’s insurance premiums. It’s causing people to be forced to sell their homes or go into foreclosure.

[@6thface]

Insurance premiums are a function of risk assessment vs replacement costs, not tax value assessment. Insurance companies have whole departments of mathematicians that do nothing but calculate these numbers. Property taxes would be a lot less regressive if insurance actuarial methods were used to determine property tax rates.

[@uhlijohn]

"The power to tax is the power to destroy." - Oliver Wendell Holmes, SCOTUS Justice

[@RDKirbyN]

I remember attending the HOA meeting for the giant building in in, and they talked about the appealing for lower tax rate. They have the money to do it, and it's a lot of old people in this building with established connections. They're very successful at it.

[@catandfoxworldbuilding]

I looked at the site for my county, and houses in the lowest percentile are taxed at double the rate of the highest three percentiles. The difference in the two is over a million dollars in value

[@pissedoffpennsylvanian]

Remember this why would any wealthy investor want these laws to change when it completely benefits them in the end and they literally can get the best deals on land/homes sometimes even for free or steal it out from underneath you? Sadly the governments and investors only care about the profitability in the end.

[@marcinsobczak2485]

Property tax is the most scary thing about USA, in Ireland i pay 300 euro tax and 500 euro insurance for the whole year for bungalow worth 320000 euros. Period.

[@fsteddy6576]

Great video. We really need groups identifying this unfair and arguably illegal behavior. There should be a class action lawsuit against the state.

[@ccubsfan94]

Anyone over 65 on a fixed income should never have changes to their taxes.

[@roshi98]

Why?

[@ccubsfan94]

@roshi98 They are on a fixed income, they don't get more money than they have, then property tax goes up because "their home is worth more" and it prices them out of something they "own." I understand the premise, and people should be smarter with retirement, but they don't teach any of that in high school.

[@akinmytua4680]

My father worked as an assessor for years so I know a bit more than most about the system. And I think you did a good job explaining it. Assessment is difficult. A lot of people tried to send dogs after my dad when he would go to a house when assessing property. Also the point about only certain people appealing their assessments was definitely true. A lot of the big franchise owners would be like "oh this property is only worth 2.5 million" "it's assessed at 7 million" "well this property next door is only 2.5" "that's a parking lot and you are a Wendy's" for an example (the Wendy's owner would then lose).

[@noname-nu6oo]

Every year property tax goes up but the past two years, it's been out of range. Almost frightening that my property tax is more than my high mortgage. Most people are forced to sell their homes that they lived in for all their lives because of the increase every year. Someone is taking advantage of the people. What can we do.

[@joecia7]

What if every homeowner in the town or county chips in a small amount of money that goes towards a lawyer or a law firm and they fight to control the over taxation of our land? As it works right now, each person appeals their assessment separately, but if we fought taxation as group we would have a better chance. It doesn’t seem like the people we pick for city council or government are willing to help us.

[@StartCodonUST]

Oh my gosh, finally a great, concise, well-produced video that wraps all of the Strong Towns interviews and presentations on this important topic into one video I can share with my normie friends who wouldn't want to watch an hour-long powerpoint presentation that I would happily rewatch or an hour-long podcast I would happily re-listen to. Great work.

[@محمدالامريكي-ج9م]

I think property taxes are unjust and should be abolished. It's a tax just based on existing and not on economic activity.

[@roshi98]

So because you exist that means that a community should stop having money to pay for critical infrastructure and services?

[@WilliamTheMovieFan]

I grew up on family land 30 miles north of Charleston S.C., and we lived on 5 acres of land in a mobile home. We didn’t have any city taxes, only county taxes. When I was in high school in the 1980’s, my dad complained about his county taxes. After some research, my dad and I found that he was paying county taxes at a rate slightly less than people with million dollar beach houses on the Isle of Palms or the multi-million homes in downtown Charleston. Now people might say, “Well it is 5 acres of waterfront property. It should be taxed like that!” It was 5 acres, but 2 acres was marsh/wetlands so it was not viable for building or selling, and we had a mobile home on it, which never appreciate like a built home. When my father drove a city bus in Charleston, he would pass through a lot of lower income areas in the downtown area. If you go down there today, you won’t see as many as there were in the 70’s and 80’s.

[@timothykeith1367]

Property taxes are a tax on unrealized gains - you are paying on-going taxes largely on inflated values - property tax is mostly a tax on inflation - it's not a tax on the real value of the property. First, you suffer the effects of high inflation, then you pay a tax on the inflation - what a sad deal! A consumption tax may be a better way to fund local government - a type of sales tax

[@roshi98]

That would just be another means of siphoning monies from already stretched urban and poor communities to subsidize wealthier ones. As a proportion of income middle and lower class workers pay a higher amount for goods and services than upper income earners and wealthy people.

[@cognician_]

Such fascinating and impactful research. Had a great chat with Lanier and the Urban3 team at the Strong Towns gathering when they presented this project. Love what they're doing.

[@StripedCheeseBread]

Property tax does not pay for sewer lines, the water waste bill pays for that.

[@ethelz2cents]

Maybe property taxes are a bad idea. Many argue you never own your home if there are always taxes to pay. If you don't pay, your property is taken. Who then really own the property as we only rent from the state. In short, property tax should be abolished.

[@Zacian2.0]

Why is it so hard for rich people to pay their bills? Why do they gotta put the bill on the poor? Its just sad. Also it only works in the old old U S of A where money makes laws and regulations

[@_t_f_]

Awesome. Thanks for sharing. This is huge. I want to become a more involved voter and constituent in my area.. I think that this video was a good boost that I needed to start writing letters to my senators and legislators here. THANK YOU!

[@aaronfield7899]

Am I the only one who thinks property tax should be abolished entirely? The Constitution says the government cannot take your life, liberty or property without due process of law

[@MrJacrider]

First question that needs to be answered is what is the purpose of property taxes? Is it to pay for the services provided by the town/city? Or is it another form of income tax? Larger properties will often receive more service - water for example, but likely not 2 or 3 times as much service. If property taxes are to be a wealth or progressive tax, then be honest about that and change the basis for the tax - total household income for example.

[@diamondsfinest9386]

Property taxes are a cities largest form of revenue. So road maintenance, water and power line infrastructure, garbage, police, fire fighters on and on. The problem isn't property tax, it's a society built upon needing car dependant single family housing for millions of people. It was never sustainable, it was only something we could kick down the road 50 years or so. Basically the only way to correct the mistakes of the past are to make suburbs gravel roads and such.

[@knavar6314]

Road maintenance - Trash Water/Sewer Power line infrastructure - Trash Garbage - Trash (pun intended) Police - TRASH Fire Fighters - They’re cool I’m tired of the “property taxes pay for so much” defense, when all the services are piss poor

[@ajourneytogrowth]

I like how you explain concepts!

[@caseyjones5145]

The system is working exactly how it was designed to

[@stevelamb2382]

We should end all property tax as property tax is confiscatory..

[@geisaune793]

This was a really good video. Can't wait for the video on the Land Value Tax!

[@Streamer22]

Property tax assessment is the preferred method of collecting local taxes because it's relatively easy to assess and collect, and if owners don't pay, the municipality can seize the property. However, there are inequities from top to bottom. Despite generally receiving the same services, the owners of more valuable homes pay more, the owners of less valuable homes pay less. And this is not related to wealth. I knew a wealthy financial planner who purposely chose to live in a small home to avoid paying taxes on a more expensive one, while older people on pensions who live in large homes that have appreciated in value more quickly than the average in their city struggle to pay the increases. And as others have pointed out, capping increases penalizes younger people trying to buy their first home. Honesty and transparency are the only way to make this system work.

[@michaellocklear640]

Property tax is theft! We shouldn't have to pay for something we have already paid for, PERIOD. If the government wants to tax spending then have at it, we can add that into decision making when making a purchase. But making someone pay a speculative amount without having any say in the cost, and then taking their home if they don't pay it is BLACKMAIL. Plain and simply IMMORAL.

[@mikkinikki1902]

The true nature of property tax is that it sets in place, a rent/never own system because any tax lien foreclosure will rip the home title from the owner's hands regardless of the home value. However, this video does deal with the criminal system as it functions right now.

[@oneofus6924]

this goes hand in hand with the other strong town statistics showing how all suburban areas are insanely subsidized by the higher density city centers. these large homes are not only not paying high enough taxes per their assessment, but also not paying enough as a whole compared to the insane amount of infrastructure it takes to keep those neighborhoods alive

[@matejovich]

Don't paint all towns with the same brush. My city is broken up by townships and cities within the big city, like most places. All taxes for my house are for my county which isn't a part of the city county.

[@jamesphillips2285]

@@matejovich So you never use big city services while only paying your local county?

[@Somberdemure]

Taxation is extortion.🤡

[@lucristianx]

Abolish the income tax. Abolish the property tax.

[@MichaelGiemzik]

i was looking around Naples FL property taxes.. my in-laws home was assessed at 80%... the expensive coastal homes were at 8-10%... think of it this way, in-laws home is worth about 450k... the coastal homes are about $30m.. that's a tremendous amount of "missed taxes"

[@jamesphillips2285]

@@youtubeuser1052 There is an argument that land value taxes make more sense than property value taxes. In Goergism the taxes are not just designed to cover the cost of delivering services. They are designed to discourage land banking, encouraging efficient land use. The surplus would them be paid back to residents as Basic Income.

[@floriderllc6862]

Evert time I hear the term fair share I want to vomit. what is a fair share? How is any amount fair? Those who don’t owe land or a home are net takers from the tax base. How is that fair? What’s unfair is taxing the next guy more than the previous owner who bought the same house much cheaper. Taxes should be consumption-based only.

[@VitalVampyr]

People who don't own land still live somewhere. They probably pay rent to the person who owns that property, who in turn pays property taxes. So the people who don't own land are still contributing to property taxes.

[@knoway35951]

I’ve know assessors that have had to leave public meetings with armed guards. It can get wild when tax laws change or when the current laws are really putting the screws to property owners. Legislators really need to start stepping up to improve how property taxation is done to begin with.

[@victortaveira8271]

But it’s plausible to happen such steep growth in property taxes even with “fearer” law . It’s market condition and it’s good that it’s happening, otherwise we would be in post Japan bubble burst. I prefer the burden cost of you to your city or the option to not pay property taxes, but transfer ownership taxes( pay everything when you’re selling your house)

[@steverobertson6393]

I always agree with the idea: Take it from Rich people. It's always worked without fail and if we really do it well, we get full on Communism, which is the ultimate justice. Living fairness. It works everytime. At least historically it has.

[@hampopper3150]

only 1% of the property taxes goes to roads and schools.

[@youseflatif796]

And the other 99% goes to politicians to buy their private jets

[@evan12697]

Property tax is absolute theft in the worst degree. You dont even own your home anymore, you’re just paying rent to a landlord that will throw you in a cage for being overdue.

[@vclxrr]

Yep. Taxes are straight up theft and bullying.

[@lw1343]

It could be fixed but people are comfortable with it. Back in "old days" a guy could be absolutely penniless but always owned his plot and shack.

[@VitalVampyr]

@@lw1343 Back in "old days" the government didn't pave (or at least level) roads going out to the penniless guy's plot or subsidize the electric and telecom companies running wires out to it.

[@philmarsh7723]

I've always maintained that property taxes should be OUTLAWED nation wide with the exception of services provided as a direct result of the property's cost to the city. Why can't local governments be financed using income taxes? I personally don't mind paying my property taxes now. But that's because I can afford them. Why should we kick poor people off of their property for property taxes. Let's just trash the whole thing!

[@vamoscruceros]

Where I live we have an occupational tax AND property taxes. Part of the property tax is specifically allocated to the state, but it would be interesting to see what state income tax and local occupational tax rate would be needed to make up the difference.

[@richard_zeller]

Get rid of property taxes. Fund things through other methods. If I owe you a tax on an item I "own" and you can revoke my ownership of that item if I don't pay, then do I really own that property?

[@zachhebb9603]

No you don't and it's amazing how many people are ok with it.

[@sgc316]

I should not have to pay taxes on my home that I own free and clear. Property tax is theft