How Big Was Khan's Empire?

[@OrangeRiver]

If you enjoyed the music in this video, be sure to check out the artist Sam Kužel's website, where you can listen to and buy his newest EP: www.samkuzel.com/

[@Zain94336]

Stop white washing khan. And Stop casting a mexican dude as khan is well. Khan is Desi

[@jamespitoola1954]

@@Zain94336 you’re going to go crazy when you find out scotty wasnt scottish.

[@리주민]

Technically, khan's control over millions and power ("I was a prince") could just mean he was a billionaire that controlled multiple corporations through a holding company. Remember that the colloquial term for that is a business empire. And how many employees does he have? Loyalty is required or person is fired. If his business bought out all the other businesses in an area, and if the govts are weak and poor, he has essentially signed their death sentence. I see Khan as the more crooked version of Offenhouse (the CEO frozen in the TNG episode Neutral Zone). I wonder if that's why they introduced him. Another CEO in voyager showed up too when they time travelled. Perhaps Roddenberry and/or his successors were showing that capitalism was becoming more corrupt and supplanting nation-states.

[@리주민]

@@jamespitoola1954 Or that Chekhov was american. Guess having a soviet actor was not so easy back in the 60s 😋

[@리주민]

@@Zain94336 Going by the last name, maybe he'd be a Sikh (which can be of any race, fyi). Going by his first name, he'd be a Mongolian warlord. Going by his middle name, he'd demand lunch at midday sharp 😋

[@BamaChad-W4CHD]

1996 was a wild year. I got my drivers license that year at 16. Life was tough but we still managed to retake Earth and chase Khan off the planet. Never forget! #eugenicsvet96

[@williamhaynes4800]

You forgot that man's civilization was cast in ruin in 1994 by a runaway planet hurtling between Earth and the moon causing cosmic destruction; as told by the narrator in Thundarr the Barbarian.

[@Jim-Mc]

I clearly remember seeing Independence Day in the theater, right before I shipped out to fight the augmented hordes.

[@weightlifting_socialist]

Where were you the day the S.S. Botany Bay flew to the sky? We all remember where we were and how we felt. #BotanyBay1996celebrationday

[@rockhaze]

I saw Spock and Kirk in San Francisco in the late 80s. I knew about the warp engine before it was invented.

[@raoularmagnac2037]

​@@rockhazeDid Chekov ask you where the nuclear "wessels" are? 😂

[@Baughbe]

Star Trek writers: Hey, lets set this event 30 years into the future. After all, what show will be remembered that long?" Fans 25 years AFTER that chosen time setting: "Hey, the plots really don't mesh well with reality of the 1990s. Hhmmmm, reality must be wrong."

[@리주민]

Star trek is the future in the Matrix 😋

[@JB-1138]

Khan should have taken place in the 2190s instead of 1990s.

[@Tiger_Pumper]

*_KHAAAAAAAAN_*

[@michaelpettersson4919]

Sometimes they are just begging for it though. The British series Space 1999 was set very optimistically close to when it was produced.

[@cassiebrighter3229]

Star Trek is set 400 years in the future.

[@mystuff8602]

Nobody back then had any idea a tv show that was broadcast once 50 years ago would be scrutinized like this

[@dswynne]

In universe, the discrepancies within the timeline is thanks to the Temporal Cold War, with some events being more "fluid" than others.

[@richardlahan7068]

That would really be the only way to "explain" the problematic timing of the "in universe" concept of WWIII and the Eugenics Wars and real world history.

[@capnsteele3365]

@@richardlahan7068 like the late 90s computer age

[@leftygurl]

that makes a lot of sense, actually, considering how much tampering went on we could be seeing slightly different timelines every time the eugenics wars are brought up

[@dswynne]

@@leftygurl Well, I just wanted to offer an "in-story" reason for the disconnect between series. In reality, we all know that Gene Roddenberry didn't have a "lock" on continuity, when it came to world building, most famous of which are the changes in the appearance of the Klingons (from TOS to TMP). That right there is on him.

[@edwardrhoads7283]

@@richardlahan7068 Nope there is one other, our universe is not the Star Trek Universe. We are some parallel universe like the Terrans.

[@khlkhjhlk]

I don't like when they try too hard to incorporate real-life events into Trek's 90's and 21st century. I like that Star Trek's history is different from ours and wish they would have embraced the eugenics wars more rather than shy away from them.

[@KironVB]

Yeah, it's clear that Star Trek's history has split by at least the 1960s. Last time I looked, there wasn't a nuclear standoff with space based nuclear missile platforms. Also the USSR in Star Trek doesn't seem to fall as well, as it's referenced in TNG and TOS.

[@ubxs113]

This.

[@roryscott2941]

Yes! That drives me crazy, it's like they don't trust us to know it's earth

[@ericpowell4350]

They shied away from it because from the 1970s through the early 2000s, the biotech industry was more prominent in the public consciousness. Look up the recently completed Human Genome Project.

[@CarlosRodriguez-bd7fp]

@@KironVB Altered timelines is retconning. The TOS 1960's future is our preset timeline.

[@r.connor9280]

SeaQuest had an augment race known as DAGERS that try to create a similar nuclear situation Also high five if anybody remembers SeaQuest at all

[@jupamoers]

I remember that^^

[@wwclay86]

I do. An interesting show with an interesting premise

[@DavidNash1948]

They needed a bigger boat.

[@wwclay86]

@@DavidNash1948 that damn thing was huge... Like a quarter mile long or something stupid like that and fusion powered.

[@tomf3150]

In seaquest dsv the augment probleme is solved when a pregnant augmented woman gives birth to a human child.

[@sagefoole]

A single war having many names is not unusual. WWI was called "The War to End All Wars" or "The Great War," just for instance.

[@kaitlyn__L]

I wanted to comment about it originally being the Great War, but decided to see if someone else had brought it up :)

[@waltciii3]

They didn't know the sequel would be so popular.

[@리주민]

World war 3 was the "war to end all wars times infinity, no take-backsies." 😋

[@lorraineliggera4229]

“The Great War” was WW I.

[@sagefoole]

@@lorraineliggera4229 That's what I said...

[@richardlahan7068]

I think the big problem with the Eugenics Wars is that the time period was so tightly defined in Star Trek that it didn't leave writers a lot of wiggle room in dealing with them. I think a lot of confusion resulted from writers not looking at what had already been covered in previous series and possibly confusing (in universe) historical events.

[@bostonrailfan2427]

it’s easier to look at it as a covert war with the powerhouses finally removed without the public noticing as it didn’t directly affect their everyday life…the events mentioned and something like the drug wars in South America or the Southeast Asia mass murders added in could easily be seen as their way of manipulating things without being overt

[@TommygunNG]

Spock's "Superior ability breeds superior ambition" is not some statement of medical or physiological function. It's a recognition of human nature: the more you can do, the more you're likely to want to do--at least, want enough to let it be an ambition. People always overplay that.

[@ChildovGhad]

I don't think it's just human nature. A cat that can get on top of the fridge is far more likely to do so than one that can barely manage to get onto the counter top.

[@TommygunNG]

@@ChildovGhad You're actually agreeing with me.

[@ChildovGhad]

@@TommygunNG Why is that so strange?

[@TommygunNG]

@@ChildovGhad You were questioning my comment about human nature.

[@ChildovGhad]

@@TommygunNG You misunderstand. I'm agreeing that "more you can do, the more you're likely to want to do", and simply pointing out that this applies beyond just our species, which "human nature" implies. It could even be applied to Vulcans, or half Vulcans, not just the cat in my example. Perhaps our species is getting too conditioned to expect adversarial stances by default on social media. I think the internet has ruined us.

[@Sutterjack]

You sir, are a hardcore Trekkie for sure! Thanks for the exhaustive, thoughtful analysis on one of the most enduring Star Trek characters and explaining the possible scenerios-

[@madonaskaff1391]

Very interesting discussion. I've always considered the Eugenics Wars and Khan an important factor that shaped the Star Trek universe as we know it. Even the later alternate history from the recent movies.

[@capnsteele3365]

the temporal cold war really changed the timelines. Like really, in the original series, there was no computer age in the 90s to them

[@masterpython]

@Suebian Our timeline was contaminated by TOS. several generations of Scientists and Engineers grew up and tried to emulate Star Trek

[@davidgriffin9412]

My thought on the inconsistencies is that what we have seen on screen is a historical representation of the past, but every time someone time travels, the past has been slightly changed. Basically what I mean is during the episode Space Seed, Khan and the Eugenic Wars happened as they said. But as more and more people time traveled, events slowly changed. When Voyager went to 1996, computers were vastly more advanced than in TOS because of the interference. This explains why the computers were more advanced in Enterprise and then especially better in Discovery than TOS. When Sisko traveled back to TOS with the Defiant, they did their best not to changed history, but if you watch the show, they did. Remember when Kirk chewed out the men for getting into the fight with the Klingons, Bashir and O'Brian were there. That means the two men that were there originally weren't. Their history was changed. Who knows what the ripple effect of that could be.

[@peterfmodel]

I totally agree with this theory, it can explain so much.

[@peterfmodel]

@Philip L Tite So true, we need to stop time travel - its too confusing. #StopTimeTravelNOW

[@kaitlyn__L]

I’ve often thought “clearly it was an alternate Tribbles timeline, O’Brien is there!” too. Also someone else from the old footage had their department colour changed in the DS9 episode. When the man from Temporal Investigations says “we could be in an alternate timeline right now”, he was bang on the money. Not to mention DS9 has also had that other timeline with the poet who was temporarily the Emissary. The concept of a single prime timeline is itself just nonsense even by the events we see in episodes, and some of them are central to the plot and not just interesting things to notice from the edit booth! We’ve seen them alter history or bring things back from the past in order to change the future so many times. We can easily just regard the timeline as updating with the writers, because there’s so much seen (and unseen) interference going on. I don’t need to catalogue it like “Enterprise is like this specifically because of First Contact” because they’ve also interfered with the 80s, 90s, 00s, and 20s. Blaming any one cause is only speculative.

[@peterfmodel]

@@kaitlyn__L Very true. The timelines often change when the writers change and there is a lack of an overarching control. In TOS Gene changed "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" because he felt it did not fit with his vision. I must admit gene was probably correct as the result was brilliant. Once that single point of control is gone, the stories tend to go off in all sorts of tangents. As long as they remain reasonably consistent with the vision, and are good, the fans don’t care. But even within that justification fans always try and identify a plausible cause. Plausibility is a critical fact in any story or character arc, so if we can ensure plausibility the story will be more likely accepted and end up in the list of good episodes. Thus we are back to time travel and time-lines.

[@tsalVlog]

@@peterfmodel Just coming back to say #StopTImeTravelBackThen would have been a better attempt. We'll get it eventually. whenever.

[@Daimo83]

You've put much more effort into preserving star trek continuity than Abrams or Kurtzman have.

[@dying101666]

they're doing their best to ruin it.

[@TheDuck632]

Now that's not fair don't forget Les Moonves he killed the golden age of Trek

[@dying101666]

@@frankcabanski9409 I'm bisexual and I think gay sulu was cringy and forced.

[@elzar760]

A shoebox puts more effort into preserving Star Trek continuity than Abrams or Kurtzman have. That being said, I don’t wish to take anything away from Orange River who has done an amazing job on this content.

[@richardvinsen2385]

@@dying101666 gay George Takei thought gay Sulu was cringy.

[@jasonryan8147]

The Eugenics war was a global revolt against tyrannic augmented humans. They should make a movie about it, Khans's rise to power , his golden age, the infighting between the Augments and then their fall.

[@greyhawk4898]

The way things are these days they'd screw it up

[@SatansSimgma]

This story line always fascinated me. It's so realistic and why I love sci-fi. Who wouldn't want genius kids?

[@Kreln1221]

*5:16** Don't forget that in the movie, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, they traveled back in time and Chekov & Uhura went aboard the American nuclear aircraft carrier, U.S.S. Enterprise CVN-65, while it was moored at the Alameda Naval Air Station in California...*

[@worldtraveler930]

Don't you mean "Nuculer Wessel" 😁

[@vincentstrack4933]

Sadly they weren't able to use the Enterprise. The carrier that was used was Ranger.

[@karlsmith2570]

@@vincentstrack4933 yup, you can tell because the conning tower on the Ranger is totally different from the one on the Enterprise

[@vincentstrack4933]

@@karlsmith2570 if you look real hard you can see some of the sailors wearing U.S.S. Ranger hats.

[@karlsmith2570]

@@vincentstrack4933 I'll have to look for that the next time I watch Star Trek IV

[@ShinAkuma204]

I very much enjoyed Greg Cox's take on the Eugenics Wars. The involvement of Gary Seven explains how they had the tech to send Khan into space.

[@cathyspence218]

I enjoyed all the Easter eggs sprinkled through the novels!

[@GoodVideos4]

Can have a spin-off series about the Eugenics Wars.

[@mattb6369]

I prefer the idea conveyed in the "Rise and Fall of Khan" novels that the Eugenics Wars were a kinda secret conspiracy of conflicts through the mid-90s not revealed to the greater general public until decades later.

[@OrangeRiver]

Certainly a possibility, if not a likelihood. There are definitely secret conflicts that have been declassified to the public IRL.

[@kanaric]

It's better to think of star trek as an alternate reality all together and let the retro futuristic 1990s be a thing

[@JimboLogic]

On Earth, two hundred years ago, I was a prince... with power over millions.

[@kaitlyn__L]

Suggesting it was set in the 2190s and not the 2260s!

[@rowdydog]

some men dare take, what they want...

[@mountaingalhomemaker4179]

@@kaitlyn__L keep in mind the year which the original series was set was never established during the series it wasn't until the 1st movie that the year was mentioned

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@mountaingalhomemaker4179 yep (edit: actually i’m p sure it was the second movie, and that only said 23rd c., not a specific year)

[@mountaingalhomemaker4179]

@@kaitlyn__L but in the series it was never mentioned the year or even century just some time in the future and you have to remember in the 1960s the 1990s were some time in the future

[@kevinkarnes4067]

Excellent video. People tend to forget that 'Star Trek' is a post apocalyptic story. The world had to start over anew. Which is why TOS Enterprise had buttons and toggle switches. I think it's plain that the beginnings of these conflicts were in the latter 20th century. Finishing out in the early 21st century. I also think it's important to remember this is all happening in another story universe. Same as 'Star Wars', Marvel or DC. It does not have to mirror our world exactly. ✌❤

[@starclone4]

Well done sir .. I see a man that enjoys, and cares about Star Trek !!!!

[@crouchback4820]

Yet another contradiction you didn't mention - in "Space Seed", when Khan asks how long he was in suspended animation the answer was "two centuries" suggesting Star Trek took place at the beginning of the 23rd Century. That fit early fan material but the later official timeline put the episode around 2267. Basically the writers were winging it a lot and you need to either put Star Trek in an alternate time line, ignore Khan & Co or retcon the Hell out of it.

[@mattirealm]

I agree. The timeline is mushy, but it doesn't matter to me that much. Those dates with Space Seed are probably incorrect as well because it was supposed to be 15 years from the Space Seed to TWOK. But that is 2282. But that isn't correct either as many fans theories put it at 2285. I think you are correct that Star Trek belongs in an alternate timeline. In fact, the constant retcons are getting more incoherent; a writer can't keep pushing back events because eventually it runs into other established bits of canon. I think it weakens the material and should be avoided, but, it is what it is. I still enjoy Star Trek, but it is clear that the writers didn't have a master plan for how this plays out.

[@greyhawk4898]

Could simply be that Spocks info was inaccurate. And if I remember correctly Kirk said it as an appropriate not absolute.

[@Mad.Maxx.77]

He was the best of the tyrants... and the most dangerous. Superior ability breeds superior ambition.

[@Amazin11000]

Today happens to be the 1 year anniversary of this video. Thank You, your channel is great!

[@noirangel6416]

Guess you could say this subject is rather Khan-flicting. 😅 I'll see myself out.

[@Fatherofheroesandheroines]

Actually, I think it's more Khan-voluted

[@dying101666]

please stay.

[@maeton-gaming]

I guess you could beam yourself out!

[@ML98837bob]

I was drinking milk when I read this. Made me blow milk out my nose. It was worth the mess. That was funny!

[@chimmy___]

Oh schnap! No u di-ent!

[@TrekCannon]

Oh this vid was just lovely. I offer a perspective....the eugenics wars were avoided due to interference from Gary 7 back in operation earth. He kept the timeline mostly the same minus 30mill dead and laid the groundwork for the topple of the augments. Just a perspective

[@SciHeartJourney]

I read both books by Greg Cox. It was fun! Captain Janeway's ancestor is responsible for the secret ship that Kahn took over. They started WARs before they turned on each other. But they were being chased down, so they banded together under Kahn to take that ship and go to a system that was going to be a 100 year trip.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Like the Cox books to

[@roryscott2941]

It was well written but it really was an Assignment: Earth series more than an Eugenic Wars one. It's the only Star Trek book that made me feel swindled

[@Delosian]

Does it say where they were going to go in the USS Botany Bay?

[@comentedonakeyboard]

@@Delosian it was described as an uninhabited planet ca 100 lightyears from earth. And Gary Seven also explains to Khan that the journey will take over a century.

[@Delosian]

@@comentedonakeyboard So the USS Botany Bay left Earth in 1996, and was found 330 years later in 2326 (Space Seed). The USS Botany Bay was a DY-100 class star ship with a top speed of 1/10th the speed of light. 100 lightyears would therefore have been 1000 years away.

[@MrStarman2010]

Great work on the Eugenics Wars and retrospect!

[@darthazgorath9570]

I always add sea quest DSV into my personal star trek canon, it takes place in 2014 and is at the beginning of the eugenics war, with one of the season finales actually deep diving into the eugenics topic quite heavily. I explain the discrepancy of the dates given and the time of the show quite simply, record's from that times are hard to come by. Thanks for reading and God bless

[@noahrotter]

I think Khan centric movie/series would probably be like a James Bond movie from the villain's perspective. Khan and Augments slowly coming to power in the late Cold War as proxy fighters, who morph into global terrorist organizations, mirroring the origins of real life terrorist organizations. The Augments would've probably ruled empires of countries destabilized by the US and Soviet Union, such as the Middle East, the Balkans, Latin America, South East Asia, etc. Khan may have been seen as the "man who brought peace to the Middle East". Khan may have been awarded a Nobel Peace Prize or been Time's Person of the Year in the 1992.

[@richardjohnson9543]

I've always believed that in the MCU universe, it was for the best that the Super Soldier program didn't succeed as intended. Otherwise something like this would've been the result there as well

[@JordanElliottMcClure]

Excellent video!

[@FelineSublime]

It's eerie the similarities between the emerging modern Khan/augment backstory and the secret history of the emergency of the Brotherhood of Nod and GDI from the original Command & Conquer.

[@johnnafunkhouser5999]

Ultimate Eugenics Wars video. Thanks!

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

A good discussion of a very convoluted subject! 🖖

[@williampyle8635]

TOO bad that REALITY does NOT fit into fiction.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

@@williampyle8635 It depends on the fiction - New York is real, even if Spiderman is not 😉

[@samdogmillionaire9288]

Damn this video is of great quality. I'm shocked by your subscriber count.

[@kaylinrajah3595]

"Hell, they even made a whole movie about his wrath" 🤣

[@teachercharlestv]

Kahn was a metaphor for Gengis Khan and his rule over the entire world through the silk route.

[@antcow1239]

I think the only error here is that people are trying to fit real world events into fiction. there is no need for that

[@Brodeon]

Yeah. Star Trek universe should be treated as an alternate universe, not our universe

[@antcow1239]

@@Brodeon Right, it just means you have to make it flex in a strange way

[@lamarravery4094]

Not only is it impossible to do, so why bother?

[@williampyle8635]

SOME people of HIS age keep trying FIT the present reality INTO THEIR FICTION.

[@tyoungjjr]

An awesome collaboration of speculation & theorizing! You have done mpre to explain this popular portion than Paramount has ever has done.

[@sasquatchandme3673]

Thanks for this video. I really enjoyed it. In my opinion, since time-travel has been a staple of every incarnation of Star Trek, it makes sense to me that the butterfly effect could distort historical information stated after the time-travellers returned to their proper time. In that regard, the Eugenics War seems to fall within that window of temporal flux where time-travellers always seem to arrive before or after those events, never during. The Eugenics Wars and WW3 definitely happen, but their details change as time-travellers muck about in the past.

[@thequintessentialgamer7514]

Tyler the level of detail you go into with trek facts is amazing! I love it!

[@honkytonkinson9787]

I hear a lot about Gene Roddenberry being an optimistic futurist but he seemed to have low hopes for the near future when he wrote Space Seed; I hope I’m not wrong in my assumption that Gene was responsible for this storyline I think I would have preferred if the Star Trek would have become an alternate reality as the show caught up with real time in the 1990s

[@GODCONVOYPRIME]

Remember the episode where Uhura slapped Spock in the face with an alaskan sea bass? It was the one where Scotty started doing the chacha while cooking pancakes for the crew..

[@sloanbrown2015]

The first thing to do to work out continuity and canon history is not to try and make it our time line or universe. It is its own thing. Its continuity is internal and that's why writers shouldn't try to dismiss, ignore, or disrespect the work of those who came before. Rethink your starting point.

[@stevef]

Great work man.

[@matthewharter6134]

What about DS9 and some of the lore behind Bashir? Does that fit or add context to Khan's origin?

[@EmEStudiosHannover]

Yes! I have just put a more detailed question concerning this issue!

[@The_Temple]

that's what I wondered -- he mentioned having been genetically enhanced in such a manner that sure sounds like the augments, but don't think quite the same thing, but perhaps a connection somehow could be made

[@shibolinemress8913]

I'm glad you mentioned Greg Cox. I love the Eugenics series, contradictions and all. And I especially love that he makes the further adventures of Gary Seven, Isis and Roberta integral to the story. I doubt Roddenberry's failed spin-off would have been nearly as good.

[@Maverick8t88]

Isnt it possible that, when Daniels was showing Archer all those views of different scenes that include our modern history, what was being shown was alternate timelines? That the Eugenics wars happen in Alpha and Beta timelines, but not in ours. Just a theory.

[@messengerguardiansparanorm8606]

Good stuff. You are awesome, Tyler.

[@davidwilliams8405]

Wow, I never cease to be fascinated by your podcasts! Yes, the first time I watched "First Contact," I wondered how the-powers-that-be were or are able to reconcile the Eugenics War with WWIII. Yes, I know that T.O.S. series were filmed in the 1960s, during the Vietnam War, set in the backdrop of the Cold War; maybe Gene Rodenberry and company figured that we were on a trajectory towards a global, nuclear conflict by the 1990s. Who knows, between the antics of "Vlad the Invader" Putin and Generalísimo President Xi, we could well have that long-delayed nuclear confrontation before the end of this year. Live long in peace, awesome Orange-River-Dude.

[@jasono.1629]

Great review of the books / graphic novels on this subject, and the general presumed history of Khan and his fellow genetically created human tyrants.

[@dockaos924]

looks like we are going to find out as its happening today but people have'nt realised yet

[@jymfysher7704]

I always looked at Star Trek as taking place in a multi-verse,not just our universe as we know it.Modern science considers this an actual possibility so most all inconstancys in Star Trek could be explained this way..Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction !!

[@Charlotte_Martel]

Greg Cox proved the best (and perhaps only) explanation for how the Eugenics Wars occurred but we were unaware of them: the genetic supermen acted as puppet masters behind the scenes and fought covertly. These novels should be read by all Trek fans, and I would love to see them become a series/film.

[@Numba003]

I would greatly enjoy a television or film adaptation of the eugenics wars myself. Stay well out there everybody, and Jesus Christ be with you friends.😊

[@Chris-es3wf]

Wow man how do only have 28k subs? Keep it up you're definitely a 100k+ channel. Keep it up man.

[@richardlahan7068]

The Eugenics Wars were ignored in DS9 when Sisko, Bashir and Dax visited 2024 San Francisco at the time of the Bell Riots.

[@apotheases]

Actually in the background of one of the scenes with Jax there is a model of the Botany Bay on the guy's desk.

[@richardlahan7068]

@@apotheases But the Wars were not discussed and they were not discussed in the Voyager "Future's End" episodes where the crew goes back to 1994 LA to stop the launch of the timeship.

[@leeyoung7826]

I thought sisko mention something about a war that recently happen when they got there explaining why the society there is so screwed I have to rewatch that episode to be sure but I am sure he says something about it he doesn't name the war but he says there was one.

[@EmEStudiosHannover]

@@leeyoung7826 I think so too!

[@t3h51d3w1nd3r]

Like Archer eventually realising that a prime directive will one day need to be put in place, Daniels also said that there was a temporal prime directive between the species that had the technology the difference in their history and ours could be damage from how ever long time ships jumped about with that directive in place. Unless theres a second temporal cold war or a full fledged war. I personally dont mind time travel stories but I know a lot of people dont and I understand their point, a lot of the stories aren't concluded or resolved well, they just end fast, easily with "now everything is fine again".

[@elwoogie1963]

In simplest terms, ever since time travel was a reality in TOS, each incursion into the past, however minor, has altered the time line in some form or other, even perhaps creating alternate time lines (Abrahmsverse). There is little reason to get up in arms over what's "canon" or not if you accept this premise.

[@jessemay1547]

I want you and Lorerunner to have a trivia battle.

[@Custerd1]

Kirk time traveled so much that he probably spawned several conflicting time streams.

[@thatsjustprime8096]

New subscriber, awesome video. Good job.

[@jrrollins84]

I think it would be Awesome if CBS did an Eugenics Wars series.

[@Peaceforall20111]

Amazing analysis like usual

[@walterlyzohub8112]

Great result in trying to make sense of all this. Khan is definitely an interesting part of Star Trek. I’ve reconciled years ago that Star Trek happened in a different timeline. If the franchise can have the Kelvin Timeline this would be reasonable.

[@jessicajujubean5004]

I remember khans dictatorship. I was in high school at the time. Half of my classmates were liquidated which is why I was class valedictorian

[@axepagode33626]

A movie about the rise of Khan and eugenics war would be interesting.

[@lv2465]

A series would be better.

[@axepagode33626]

@@lv2465 As long as we don't let CBS or JJ Abrams handle it.

[@johnjamescapel3489]

Very interesting . Nice explanation for the time line.

[@ebrim5013]

This was fun. It really does seem though that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII work best when viewed as roughly the same conflict. They fill the same narrative role, certainly. I had forgotten about that scene with the real-world 90's stuff in Enterprise, it's too bad that made it through editing, it would have made this a bit simpler.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

i can see that the fighting kept going after the augments were deposed. when a major part of the world were part of a newly destroyed empire all kinds of people will try to get some of the spoils. Just look at how Alexanders empire basically fell into a series of smaller states, how the Mongol empire was broken up, or even how Rome was split and in the western part fell into warring states for over a millennium afterwards, or how the Ottoman Empire was basically split by western forces by simply drawing lines on a map, or how Germany was split after WWII being on both sides of the emerging cold war. Same should happen after Khan's empire was defeated. Every local administrator would have interest in regaining control over their province, suppressed people try to gain independence, external nations come and try to take over stuff. This can easily result in continued fightning, not get rid of the dictator but over who takes what of his empire.

[@worldtraveler930]

@@HappyBeezerStudios I can see the logic in that. 🖖

[@leftygurl]

i kind of like that there’s this sort of mythologizing at play with the eugenics wars, since we’re looking at a 20th century event through the lense of something 400+ years later, some things are bound to be lost or muddled through the passage of time

[@pinto91101]

The Eugenics Wars timeline would fit in a universe where the Nazis won the war. They were heavily involved in eugenics.

[@lucasbachmann]

they don't need to win WWII. German scientists with dubious pasts worked for NASA and german rockets were reverse engineered by Russia. The Eugenic wars seems to have their origin in the notion that all races can be improved - not only Blonde German's deserve to exist.

[@centurian318]

Nazi Germany believed in better Soldiers through Chemistry as well.

[@kingofthespazs]

It doesn't need to be the germans, every major power in the world part takes in some degree of dubious genetic alterations.

[@robertaguilar2124]

Àctual lost or hidden history: most policies used by nazis against jews was first partially used in california against asians, especially Chinese before the WW I! Maybe that's why China wants real Augments or Replicànts against white western nations!

[@lamarravery4094]

@@robertaguilar2124 Where are you getting this from? Breitbart, lol.

[@tuttt99]

I am a die hard Trek fan and I can sum up the differences between Trek history and our present reality in four words: It's Just. A. Story.

[@OrangeRiver]

Yes, but "it's just a story" is simplistic surface-level analysis.

[@jasonhuish7887]

the next star trek series should be about Khan and Eugenics Wars on Paramount Plus you got me interested Orange RIver on this Star Trek story arc

[@blackdog6969]

Been looking for something on the Eugenics Wars. Solid vid, hope to see more like it

[@EmEStudiosHannover]

Well researched, thank you! But one question to all you Trek nerds out there: Isn't the creation of Dr. Bashir and his fellows, who appeared two times on DS9, based upon the knowledge of all these Khan and Augments (Correctly written?) issues? And didn't they talk about that in these two episodes? I think that was the reason, why Dr. Bashir's true identity was kept secretly at first. The German episode's title of the first one is translated: "Dr. Bashir's secret" (I don't know the American original title, but can be the same of course). If all is like that, it is missing in your documentation... (Please don't regard it as a negative critic) B-)

[@jsrl317]

Outstanding commentary. ‘nuff said! ❤

[@southtexasprepper1837]

"The Eugenics Wars" should serve as a warning for real-life Genetic Engineering.

[@josephcontreras8930]

Welcome to jurassic world...

[@리주민]

The takeover of starfleet command by the proto-borg (bugs in the body) should serve as a warning against having a starfleet. .... For both yours and mine, perhaps we should learn how to improve instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

[@southtexasprepper1837]

@@리주민 In the Star Trek Universe, that's what scientists tried to do. However, their 'improvements' only breed superior ambition and tyranny. That's what "The Eugenic Wars" were all about. In real life, we don't know the long-term effects of genetic engineering to ourselves, to food crops, or the environment. Genetic engineering can also be used for warfare. Such as developing biological weapons that wouldn't normally occur in Nature.

[@hopebelieve2526]

OrangeRiver, The reason why the Late 21st century is not touched on in Star Trek beyond WW3 and the Eugenics Wars is because, in Gene Roddenberry's time the eventuality of WW3 was a foregone conclusion. We seemed to be heading that way all the time. And, the speculated damage of WW3 was presumed to be near extinction level and anything coming next would be comparatively insignificant or at least paled by comparison. To ensure the believability of Star Trek as a viable future for mankind, which has always been the draw for Star Trek, Roddenberry and his successors have saw to it that this late 21st century time period bridging the real world future with Star Trek's fictional future-past has been untouched so that Star Trek fans, for decades now, have been able to find the bright future world of Star Trek plausible with a minimum of belief suspension. Roddenberry's artistic addition of Eugenics as reaction to WW3 and the Eugenics Wars as reaction to Eugenics follows the social and technological progression so well established by all the great wars. BTW, I'm pretty sure you mean the LATE 21ST CENTURY which would be our immediate nearest distant future 2050 to 2099. There was no Zero century. So the 20th century was 1900 to 1999. A little history lesson there for ya.

[@sarrjel]

I hate when authors and comic book writers integrate Fiction with people in reality. Let's just assume it's in another dimension with different people.

[@troym1023]

we need a series on the eugenics wars. 4 seasons thats all. it would be epic

[@jymfysher7704]

Ya got a catchy voice.Kinda like the Twighlight Zone Sterling style,good work!!

[@jymfysher7704]

@John Barber Rod !!

[@STho205]

@John Barber very hard to type Serling (and have it stay) with an autoguess phone programmed in India or China. It often substitutes Sterling...however the commenter may have misspelled it themselves.

[@komradewirelesscaller6716]

Actually the events portrayed in Assignment: Earth actually can be reconciled with Earth history up to that point. Spock says that the US was launching an orbital nuclear warhead platform. He also says it is going to happen the same day as an important assassination. The King assassination was the same day as the launch of the unmanned Apollo 6 Saturn V rocket. This same Saturn V amazingly enough also suffered a serious mishap and went off course. The details of the mishap with the Saturn V on April 4th differ greatly in detail from the events of Assignment: Earth. However, Kirk comments at the end of the episode that the real events were never "generally revealed" at the time. It makes sense therefore to assume, within the context of Star Trek's fictional history that there was a massive cover-up about the Apollo 6 mishap and that a false cover story was put out to hide the truth that they were actually launching a nuclear weapon into orbit. I wrote a little write up on all this also somewhere bouts 10 years ago on the Memory Alpha website which is still there.

[@RappinPicard]

Wasn’t the footage in Assignment: Earth actually OF the Apollo 6 launch?

[@komradewirelesscaller6716]

@@RappinPicard I do not believe so. I think it was footage from an earlier launch of a Saturn 5. This episode I believe aired just several months before the launch of the unmanned Apollo 6 and the assassination of MLK. Which were both on April 4th 1968. I would have to double check to be sure but I think Assignment Earth first aired January of 1968.

[@RappinPicard]

@@komradewirelesscaller6716 yeah you’re right. The episode aired before the Apollo 6 launch so this footage would have had to have been Apollo 4. I think the reason that I assumed it was Apollo 6 is because SO MUCH of the documentary footage we see is from A4 or A6.

[@komradewirelesscaller6716]

@@RappinPicard I still find it quite amazing how accurate this episode is to real events from 1968. The actual unmanned Apollo 6 crashed down, I believe, in the Pacific Ocean after it malfunctioned. Kirk's one line though at the end of the episode, that the real events of what took place were "never generally revealed" gives the episode a "way out" to explain why the events of the episode differ from what we know of in real life! And allows us to have a little bit of fun and to speculate on some kind of Roswell type coverup to hide the fact that an orbital nuclear warhead was hidden in the nose cone of the unmanned Apollo 6 Rocket. The writers on Star Trek TOS hit another home run also in the first season in Tomorrow in Yesterday when they predicted that the first manned moon landing would be launched in the late 1960's and on a Wednesday. Both of which turned out to be correct!

[@moonled]

Could the discrepancies be due to timeline changes inadvertently made by Federation and other time travelers?

[@johnnyscifi]

Superior ability breeds superior ambition. Space Seed is probably my favourite TOS episode

[@james8449100]

I always thought it was a ww1 to ww2 relationship between the eugenics wars and ww3

[@adamgomez5840]

Well done presentation !

[@alexmartin3143]

Funny they get an actor who played Paul Atreides who was a product of decades worth of genetic manipulation to play one of Soong’s augments..

[@earlware4322]

Yeah, I caught that as well. Not sure if that was intentional or just a happy little nerd Easter egg. 😃

[@thomashunter7040]

I think the truth is they messed up when they made the Eugenics Wars occur between 1992-1996. The writer had no idea that people would still be talking about such things in 2023 and he had an episode to write. The truth is we were not even close to the kind of eugenics that could create augments like Khan and his super people, and even today we can't do it. Greg Cox did an absolutely fantastic job reconciling events of the 1990's with a plausible take on the Eugenics Wars! My hat is off to him! I liked it so much I read it twice in a row! But the truth is such a massive war and regime change could not go unnoticed by the masses. It didn't happen nor could it have happened. The science was not that far along back then.

[@gretchenjaenisch1826]

I've followed Star Trek since the original version ( Captain Kirk ) and always questioned the statements made regarding earth's history. Nice explanation in this video.

[@1joshjosh1]

to hell with in the Darkness.

[@skylorwilliams5036]

It seems like the Eugenics Wars and World War III are two different events. EWs in the 1990s, while WW3 was around the 2050s.

[@OrangeRiver]

Exactly-- that's a distinction I expound upon in the video.

[@frankbalistreri498]

This concept was ruined when we decided to make Star Trek history fit into our own.

[@markfergerson2145]

There's also Sisko's journey into the past during the Bell Riots (happening in 2024) to reconcile with the Eugenics Wars/WWIII issues. The Bell Riots were a consequence of a worldwide economic depression, (such as typically happens in the aftermath of large wars) at least partly stemming from "political upheaval" in Europe. Nobody in the episode mentions such relatively recent warfare but all the signs are there. Several on-screen sources date WWIII as starting two years after the Bell Riots. It's likely that the Augments were covertly running things during this period. My personal headcanon is that so many records were lost or garbled that nobody who wasn't present in any of the wars knows what happened, and which conflicts belonged to which wars were matters of opinion more than being specific, distinct events. Khan was probably silently laughing to himself at the statements of Kirk and his crew and was unlikely to correct them. From his point of view, the less they knew, the better... for him. As more and more people traveled into the past, more and more snippets of information about the wars were retrieved, changing what we hear characters say on-screen. This is why we get conflicting dates for the Eugenics Wars (note the plural) and WWIII.

[@radioflyer68911]

Science frictions writers and junk science prognosticators like AL Gore need to start throwing their predictions much further into the future.

[@pablohammerly448]

@John Tminustwentyminutes Mercier: Science frictions? Did a sci-fi writer rub you the wrong way? 😲

[@londonpickering8675]

Oddly satisfying. Thanks for posting.

[@SuperOmnicronsj44]

and BOTH SUCK. Thus, let us continue to re-visit the excellent Star Trek TOS