Questions and Answers session with Thich Nhat Hanh (May 2014). ~~~ Help us caption & translate this video! amara.org/v/FUS2/
Пікірлер: 145
@writeronthestormkyushu5655 жыл бұрын
Teaching fifth grade in a high poverty and high risk area in southwest U.S., our class has benefited greatly from mindfulness breathing, active listening, and compassion. We even have a small chalkboard that says, "Just breathe." Sometimes a student will pick it up when I am frustrated (not mindful) to remind me to practice even in stressful situations.
@lauralunaazul5 жыл бұрын
💪💪💪💪💪
@teddyp37233 жыл бұрын
That's beautiful.
@mipatataquierido3 жыл бұрын
that means I have to find an excuse for that person why he is always bully me then to givr sympathy? I understand someone somtimes has a reason did something hurt the others but in some case a lot of people are doing it intentionally repeatedly at work. In personal life I can avoid and ignore, at work I cannot.
@katrinalivingston50173 жыл бұрын
I agree with this wholeheartedly. This is something children need to know and be taught, but this Christian filled country it will be hard to put in the curriculum.
@writeronthestormkyushu5653 жыл бұрын
@@katrinalivingston5017 Katrina, you are so right. That is why my credo as a teacher is - better to ask for forgiveness than permission. Peace and light.
@lorierrigo243610 жыл бұрын
Hurt and pain can be transformed through compassion... As Thay teaches us.
@davidwebb42345 жыл бұрын
Too be mindful of anger is very hard. Your unconscious mind will do all it can to drag you into the egoic mind state. So please stay present with the uncomfortable pain and all the negative story that you mind is telling you. Don't feed it, just watch it. Try talking to yourself with compassion, saying to yourself it's ok, I will take care of you. Speaking loving towards pain and suffering.
@Okaythen1932 жыл бұрын
You're right. It's like when your in that mindset you become the anger and it's so hard to see around it. It feels nearly impossible, this is me saying this after just have a mini mental breakdown and reacting very negatively and angrily to it. I instantly felt regret bc I know it isnt me, but when I'm angry I just cant see past it at times although I'm getting better at being mindful of this. thanks for your advice, I'll be sure to use it :)
@Howie-f3z10 ай бұрын
"Too be mindful of anger is very hard. Your unconscious mind will do all it can to drag you into the egoic mind state." Why is that?
@Maria-pu8wc10 жыл бұрын
Compassion is pure medicine! fills the heart even when its bleeding. Thank you Thay for so much love and wisdom!
@HazVegan Жыл бұрын
Grateful for your teachings dear Brother Thay. Your wisdom lives on.
@linhdinh35904 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much, Thay, for your lesson. I have problems controlling my temper for many years. Your teaching help me understand that anger could not be controlled, only could be transformed. When anger come to us, we need to breathe deeply to calm ourselves down, look deeply to recognize our anger, understand its cause and embrace it tenderly. In that way, we feel a relief right away. When we have conflict with other people, by loving speech and deep listening, we could help that person suffer less and increasing mutual compassion and understanding and lead to final peace between both sides. I'm so grateful that I finally found the answer to transform the suffering of my parents, myself and not let anger control me to hurt the ones I love.
@marenostrum77967 жыл бұрын
I keep coming back to this video as it gives some very essential keys to put anyone on an effective initial track action while dealing with anger. I've learnt through myself personal experience: 1- Acknowledging anger when it manifest in me. 2- Stopping all activities and breathing in/out in awareness so that I can fully stay with this extremely powerful energy. 3- Experiencing in all its fury while observing, acknowledging its response and impact in all my body and mind. 4- Free from any discrimination or comparation with other energies (very important to this point). Dealing with it with the same equanimity as if it was compassion. Living the experience beyond duality. Free from any attachment. 5- Let it simply be. 6- Talk to it (marvellous experience when reaching this stage. One can experience with great clarity how anger stars to dilute at the same time a new way of very, very sweet, sensitive energy of compassion takes place from the same source anger energy. Amazing and very beautiful experience. So it seems as if compassion is made with anger elements.
@marenostrum77967 жыл бұрын
As a contrast to the wisdom passed on by all great Masters, Rimpoches... in buddhist enviroments. They are not the best enviroments to overcome anger for they are extremely attached to pleasanties of the called positive emotions and consecuently all negative will need to be repressed.
@ruthfourie74993 жыл бұрын
Mare Nostrum there is no need for suppression where there is prevention.
@LeKhang982 жыл бұрын
@@marenostrum7796 Thank you for your first comment, it's really helpful to me. I have to disagree with the second comment though. Buddism is not attached to pleasant feelings. They simply recognize suffering and transform them as Thay said. I think the keywords are Balance and Moderation. There are many lessions in Buddism about this subject: One shouldn't chase after pleasantness nor run away from suffering. There is a famous quote in Vietnam "Nhất Tu Thị, Nhị Tu Sơn" which means the best place to practice is in the city amongs all kinds of people, not in a temple or a moutain, but it only for those who have reached a certain level & experience like Thay. Beginner people & young nuns/monks could be protected from many factors and earn many benefits by practicing in a neutral environment first.
@HAB-BITUAL Жыл бұрын
thanks for this summarization!
@jamesphilly51967 жыл бұрын
When anger arises... Don't suppress. Don't react. Just observe.
@janeyd52805 жыл бұрын
easier said than done.x
@mryan471911 ай бұрын
Not exactly. Observe and love it, and sit with it as you would a suffering child, and ask what is upsetting it, and let it introduce you to grief or violated boundaries, or whatever it is trying to show you, and then start healing it ❤
@ConexionHumanaOficial6 жыл бұрын
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Dear Thay for the marvelous teachings in this talk. I can mention many things, but I just say that I recognice that compassion means to love and to heal, not only our person but the other person too. Embracing every person in the sittuation for sure give us more peace of mind, and harmony in our soul. Lots of hugs. Evangelina Cortes.
@RogerRFontaine10 жыл бұрын
embracing the energy of anger with the energy of mindfulness and compassion to transmute anger into acceptance. thank you Master, peaceful healing from your stroke on nov 11-2014
@alanhill49579 жыл бұрын
Thich Nhat Hanh explains that "control", which is the act of suppressing, is not good. So just "not getting angry" is not what he's talking about. "Not expressing the anger" is not what he's saying. "Taking out anger", immediately reacting or expressing anger later is not freely embracing the anger. With underlying "bottom line" understanding and compassion, one accepts the anger for what it is, and then transforms it. And what it is always involves other people or another person in one form or another. They also must be included in the transformation. Thank you for reading this.
@helensinn87184 жыл бұрын
Thank
@lauralunaazul5 жыл бұрын
She really asks "when the anger come out sundenly, she realize, later, she hurt the other, and she feels bad, she feels she cannot do anything to fix the pain in the other, how to fix the situation, she asks"... she doesnt like to hurt people, very good question, indeed 😊😊
@evviemoore51665 жыл бұрын
It is hard, but one can do it. This is probably one of the greatest of his teachings.
@lauraduran43022 жыл бұрын
This is so very helpful, it's actually life-changing! Thank you so much, dear Thay & Plum Village Community! ☺💛🙏
@operasinger21269 жыл бұрын
Master Hanh is an amazing master.
@stevebutler8125 жыл бұрын
This is a great video. I am a school counselor and mental health clinician. I believe that Freud was wrong in his concept of catharsis, or getting it out. Talking about it with the counselor, might help. But, hitting pillows is in a behavioral sense, practicing that which promotes anger and violence. Likewise, raking leaves angrily, is not transformative, it just exhausts you. Even if you don't hit the pillows, or chop wood, and you just suppress your anger and rage, it builds up. And some day, some unfortunate person is going to be the recipient of all that or wrath, hatred, anger, bitterness, that has built up inside of you. It might even be yourself, when you look back on a life that was wasted on revenge, or suppression, or refusing to acknowledge your natural emotion of anger. Of course, this advice is similar to the sayings of the New Testament author Paul, as much as it depends on you, live at peace with others. Peace.
@lauralunaazul5 жыл бұрын
Yes, but how? You dont explain how?
@stevebutler8124 жыл бұрын
@@lauralunaazul He does. Practice. Accept anger. Choose balance.
@lauralunaazul4 жыл бұрын
@@stevebutler812 ok, thank you. ❤
@lauralunaazul4 жыл бұрын
@@stevebutler812 so, acceptance.
@mangoMango-ck3et4 жыл бұрын
Great video,, should be translated and shown in all schools,classes, worldwide,,see how many people-students can benefit from this form of learning, about dealing with anger
@gatogate90947 жыл бұрын
Anger is a very big subject. It often a throw of temper is taking these days as anger. But this wasn't before years back. People then would understand and forgive a sudden tantrum because everybody had them!. Forgiving, giving a hug as symbol of making peace....But now we seem having lost that natural capacity. In nature when any animal is provoqued till the point of anger, what they do is to deffend themselves. Anger is a natural guard protecting us from any threat.
@janeyd52805 жыл бұрын
very well said. x
@janeyd52805 жыл бұрын
Gato Gate. I am so glad you mentioned being provoked into anger. we are made to feel guilty for displaying our anger in whatever way. I am so grateful to you as not much is said about provoked anger. the person who is angry is perceived to be the baddy and you are told you cannot take angry words back. so yes what about the people who provoked it.xx
@tamiasmith16682 жыл бұрын
Can you think of a old sitcom or movie that demonstrates this was the norm? I am Curious
@scottlutz23115 жыл бұрын
The words he speaks are the only truth to experience our ability to act lovingly toward others when we feel anger. The positive energy of mindfulness comes from our creator. Swim with the current of mindfulness and the strength of the stream is yours. Swim against the current and suffering continues, anger persists. Understanding of our own anger and anger of others is the change this world needs. Can we start now?
@ConexionHumanaOficial6 жыл бұрын
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Dear Thay. I think that I understand your answer, and at that time of my own process is easy to me being tenderly if something happens in my life and it is not positive, but I'm sure that time before it was difficult for me to understand, because the job to reorganice my life has been a process not only one event. I'm grateful to receive your teachings and being practicing as much as possible to me. Evangelina Cortes.
@ChrisOakesCO5 жыл бұрын
There's nothing wrong with getting upset an telling someone your upset as long as your not getting upset every day! I hate when people suppress their Feelings and waist their life afraid to Live! Suppressing is NOT healthy an later it comes out in ugly ways over little things because of the issue you didn't resolve! Arguing once in a while is how you get things fixed or at least vent your Feelings! If someone is upset at me I want them to tell me so we can fix it or at least get it off their chest! Holding stress in will kill you.
@lauralunaazul5 жыл бұрын
Yes, she s asking how to say I am sorry, really. I speak spanish and she s asking what to do when she realizes she hurt other people, and she feels bad about it...
@ChrisOakesCO5 жыл бұрын
@@lauralunaazul Oh ok thank you! Someone should tell her to just speak her Feelings from her Heart an be honest an say I'm sorry for hurting you. I think we should listen to everyone like the guy in this video but make final decision ourself. God is found by listening to the Feeling in our Hearts because God doesn't live in books or buildings, God lives in Hearts! 😊
@happymongolia7 жыл бұрын
exactly, when i am facing more harder times i gets more softer to the other and feels loving them. our sufferings are key to the grow in the spiritually.
@Sickdayskiing9 жыл бұрын
Letting "Anger Out" is simply temporary. It may make you feel good in the moment but the root cause is still there. Understanding why the anger exists is part of why you're angry. Understanding the cause can allow you to release the anger in a constructive manner. Its not the anger of subbing a toe or hitting your thumb with the hammer. Although relaxing and deep breathing will help with the pain emotional pain is very different. Understanding why someone caused you pain may make the pain much less. That is TNH"s message. When he said hitting the pillow does no good it's no different than hiding your pain in drugs, it's only a short term solution. Long term is to be mindful of the source of the pain. Looking at why the other person hurt you, there may be a common cause.
@josefromspace9 жыл бұрын
No, it's not temporary, when you release anger that anger is gone. If the next day you're still angry after releasing it the previous day then it means that your mind built up new anger for that day, it is not the same psychic energy within the mind, which could be caused by an unresolved external event that is reiterating and therefore re-traumatizing. But in terms of what happens within the mind it is new anger. And if it isn't released it'llstack up.
@owent11666 жыл бұрын
José Yánez I'm unsure the anger does let go of. Lets think about it.. Anger arises, we notice the anger, the anger is overwhelming and we feel we need to let it go, we choose a practice e.g. punching a pillow to let out this anger.. We punch this pillow and now we have the perception we are letting go and doing something constructive with our anger, maybe we even feel better afterwards and proud that we handled it well. However are we truly connecting with the source of the anger? Are we not just utilizing physical energy that we perceive to be 'getting in touch' with our anger? Are we simply letting out energy? Where does that energy come from? Is it the seat of anger? Has that seat of anger been reduced by letting out the build up of energy perceived as anger? I'm unsure. Personally I feel the lake must be totally drained. How? We no longer feed the source. Letting our anger doesnt transform anger it simple expresses anger.. Transforming anger through compassion whereby we no longer feed the source of anger creates true lasting transformation. We turn anger through wisdom and compassion into love.
@Howie-f3z10 ай бұрын
I am over the hill and just now trying to bring these teachings into my psyche, but it is hard. It is so hard to be angry, to deal with the anger.I cannot follow my breath for more than three counts, and I start daydreaming. The anger comes explosively and I hate it, hate myself. I hate every second of it. I hate every bit of myself. This is really toxic and negative. But thank you for reading. Peace---
@melodyst.claire53894 жыл бұрын
Thank you Thay🙏❤💐💐💐💐💐💐 so much to learn So much Thankful ❤❤🙏
@audriiiiroberts30302 жыл бұрын
Thank you beloved 💗
@thedavisgroup3 жыл бұрын
Thank you Dear Thay. I needed this right now.
@ai1723 жыл бұрын
This question is for Thay. "How do I listen compassionately when someone is yelling, blaming and verbally abusing me ? How do I respond especially when the other person expects me to answer? " Thank you🙏
@plumvillageonline3 жыл бұрын
Dear friend, have a look at this Questions and Answers playlist with Thay kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXemenx6orOShtE You'll find quite a few similar questions answered. Hope this helps 🙏
@lauralunaazul5 жыл бұрын
Abrazar tiernamente la propia ira, como una madre a su bebé 😍😍😍 ❤❤❤
@はちみつ-g2o4 ай бұрын
相手の苦しみを理解する実践を行います。 ありがとうございます!
@patriciamoesiufung15855 жыл бұрын
HAVING COMPASSION.IS A POSITIVE ENERGY OF LETTING THE ANGER RELEASE..
@Reree-gz5bg3 жыл бұрын
I realise multi tasking is something I am so use to, I have to be mindful & stop whatever I am doing & reset. Usually whatever is of urgency, o complete that first. 🙇♀️. Even in watching videos, I realise I don’t even do that mindfully 😬.
@lolo-cz3yk3 жыл бұрын
Thx for the question
@Ceinoris10 жыл бұрын
The answer is to balance that Yang energy(anger) with more Yin energy(compassion)......Change your diet if youre angry....and study Tai Chi.......
@The1951skylark10 жыл бұрын
Tony Z great post! .....Tai Chi IS an ultimate answer ....balance within. Highly recommended. Great Post and Guidance from Thich Nhat Hanh. A treasure to humanity.
@SuzanneCheung9 жыл бұрын
What is diet?
@Ceinoris9 жыл бұрын
Suzanne Cheung the food you eat......Yin foods are fish, veggies, rice,pork.fruits.....basically the Asian Diet....
@SuzanneCheung9 жыл бұрын
Yes beef or seafoods mostly.
@ashwanikgarg8 жыл бұрын
Suzanne Cheung you do know Thay advocates a total vegetarian/vegan diet right?animal food causes suffering.
@Randothol8 жыл бұрын
Thank you,
@MrHuanDoan6 жыл бұрын
Wow...such a great mind!. Learning a lot from you message Thay.
@lizxxx55438 жыл бұрын
I know what the questioner said in spanish... That she just lashes out & reacts when shes angry & when she calms down, she realizes that shes hurt others. Shes wondering how could she control the anger.
@lauralunaazul5 жыл бұрын
Si, dice que suprime la ira y de repente le sale, y después se siente mal y siente no puede hacer nada para remediar el mal que causó o la herida en el otro, excelente pregunta.
@Konushku3 жыл бұрын
The fact that she already recognised that is a great start. She's already way ahead of many others
@wrightsong3 жыл бұрын
Energies cannot be removed like surgery, but can be transformed.
@nataliebrakeart3 жыл бұрын
The Work of Byron Katie is also a really good tool to use to challenge our Egoic stories that make us aggressive. It is very powerful, it addresses the anger on a very deep level.
@newyorker5886 жыл бұрын
I'm trying to understand the suffering of the people talking in the background instead of listening to this very awake mindful teaching but it still makes me angry so I'm suffering too
@JaronLukasXYZ6 жыл бұрын
lmao
@janeyd52805 жыл бұрын
to me they are showing disregard to everyone else who are there to hear the speach.
@supremeplustv18929 ай бұрын
Basis of Budhism is reincarnation and law of karma . The necessity of Budhism is impermanence , sufferings and concept of no soul . Budhism is to guide one to remain in human world and heavens until final stage is attained 🙏🙏🙏
@NonnaBerter8 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much
@nantiachronidou37996 жыл бұрын
thank u soo much!!!!! such a blessing...
@Spiritualitygonwild2 жыл бұрын
Teacher, what if we are in a group when they talk and we deep compassionate listening , they want us to agree with them and choose their side over who they have anger against ? So in that situation do we agree with them or correct them . If we agree that is adding gas to their fire , but if we correct them that might also add gas to their fire so what to do please ?
@phantasma6693 жыл бұрын
It s very difficult but it can be built by practice...change is slow but constant
@reiul97876 жыл бұрын
Magistral.
@joanlamell30797 жыл бұрын
Learn to be compassionate with myself and others!
@chongseitmooi25933 жыл бұрын
This speech was very enlightening esp pillow humour
@michaellyons87125 жыл бұрын
Thank you thay🙏
@johnmiracledoyle49149 жыл бұрын
What does one do with anger that comes from another persons negligence that causes harm? Weird example, I was in a crowded yoga class today and a student who was not proficient handstands tried to do one 2 feet from me and kicked me in the chest as I was going into a handstand and she fell. It hurt me. I was angry. I left the class. Later the teacher said it was "unintentional" but I am still angry with her as of 12 hours later. The bus driver example in the comments suggests he was late for reasons beyond his control. But what if he carelessly skipped your stop because he simply forgot as he was texting his friend? Is anger justified then? Can the anger be "taken out" then? Or in a horrible situation where one is maimed by a drunk driver, would Thich Hanh allow anger then?
@sallymcsales65965 жыл бұрын
Imagine someone with a physical or mental disability, maybe someone who is blind or deaf, and on a crowded street this person bumps into you. Now, in this situation, will you be angry with him? Or will you forgive him with your compassion? I have done some thinking, and it came upon me that people who we consider to be "rude/inconsiderate/selfish" are similar to people with physical or mental handicaps. Deep down inside, they are handicap in a certain aspect thus they portray themselves to be offensive to others. Similar to people with disabilities, the condition can be treated or minimized. Understanding the above, and knowing that you will not be angry at a disabled person, I say it is probably easy to let the anger go in such a situation. There is no victim here.
@InnaVitamina7775 жыл бұрын
I think the point isn't getting angry but rather acknowledging its birth and being mindful of it coming along but taking the energy involved physically mentally etc and channeling it into something that is beneficial..
@nobutterinhell5 жыл бұрын
also i am compassionate when i am angry
@densa25623 жыл бұрын
🙏💜🍀🌻 thank und Thay
@frederickstewart62176 жыл бұрын
Breathe for one minute. Relax. React.
@psilocosmo69182 жыл бұрын
Beautiful answer. Now if only he gave it in Spanish they would have all understood it.
@fayafayouch73156 жыл бұрын
It 's juste wonfderful
@juanjorojash7 жыл бұрын
I translated this into Spanish a couple of months ago to share it with my family. It is not available yet. Somebody knows how to report this issue?
@mkh27993 жыл бұрын
🙏
@Reree-gz5bg3 жыл бұрын
I read, did some journaling & wrote about ways to let go of the ego. I realise for me I have an inferior complex. I didn’t know it was a thing :o
@alexandrelafreniere59462 жыл бұрын
As a kid, I was not allowd to express myself, m'y parents affraid if me looking Silly or stupid on front of Them...a Shane if me their lovely son... After I suffer of not Being myself... After I hit my pillow a lot...After my Mothers hot myself...Bad Boy!!! Being a kid!!! After hiting my pillow ans Being Mad avoir autority...I got verry Mad avoir autority... Hitting some stranger on the street!!! Sad I was...lost in my compassion and bag of seeds... After I suffer...alown...with aimé tv, alcool, cigaret, food...etc... After I have kids... Did I choose if making Them a pillow???? Not at alll... By practicing and lerning and understand the Shanga... I rote lettres of love... Ask my kids to stay calmer of their dad...and feed Compassion about my parents and Mothers...and pillow that have suffer a lot lolll My kids are not violent and are getting closser to love and contrôle of Anger that anyone vous ne by having me as exemple.... Juste be true...vision juste .... actions juste...amour juste.... vérité juste...gestes justes... Merci tel tous les grains de sables de milliers de Gange...la Shanga et mon Boudha Thich Nhat Hanh!
@JamesSchanz7 жыл бұрын
What is the tapping sound
@geovaniavaninha26403 жыл бұрын
I wish the Brazilian President Bolsonaro could listen to you Thay! He probably would cause much less harm and less suffering to the Brazilian People.
@pinagreco6595 Жыл бұрын
🙏🙏🙏
@wardeggerrobertmarius1444 ай бұрын
How to be docile?
@jasminmostafa35957 жыл бұрын
his spanish is hard to understand but very cute when he speaks it lol
@Reincarnation1117 жыл бұрын
sound when questions are being asked is so bad in these videos, wonder why the person recording doesn't correct this? is he/she not aware of it
@DeProtoplast7 жыл бұрын
all links of all
@mloera29665 жыл бұрын
Sir Thich Nhat Hanh, have you met DJT?
@karaeverman11642 жыл бұрын
🙏❤️
@notinterested84522 жыл бұрын
How arrogant! That's not your anger. You belong to the anger. Not the other way around. Be humble.
@stebarg5 жыл бұрын
Poor audio Please fix! 🙏🏽
@Myscarletheart14 жыл бұрын
Practice mindfulness my friend. Be mindful to Thay's voice and his teaching and you shall be free from other distractions 🙏
@lauralunaazul5 жыл бұрын
I can translate this video to Spanish if you want 😊 Plum Village 💓💓
@Zjulio4 ай бұрын
Sadhu sadhu sadhu
@thebeebuzz3 жыл бұрын
Why does it feel like someonebis tapping on the mic constantly? 😅🙏
@genericfabricrefresher31632 жыл бұрын
Je t’aime qu’il parle français aussi👽🙏🏼
@curtisnewton8953 жыл бұрын
il parle français ???
@weebunny Жыл бұрын
Il a habité en France pendant de nombreuses années. Le Village des Pruniers (Plum Village) est en France. Je crois qu'il pourrait parler chinois aussi, et sa langue maternelle était le vietnamien.
@lauralunaazul5 жыл бұрын
How pitty is he doesnt understand spanish, or she doesnt speak english, because the woman who translate spanish to inglish to him, didnt translate exactly what she says, and so, he s not really answearing her question. I speak spanish and inglish, her question was really good one! We all have this kind of emotion/situation I think :)
@martamariotto11813 жыл бұрын
Kids, don't waste your time and money on therapists and psychologists please.... They only serve the system and will hardly offer you any real help. You will be much much more helped if you study spirituality and develop your consciousness. And if you are not stupid, you won't need to pay anyone in order to do that.
@temperhollow77165 жыл бұрын
I feel outraged by the people who cough all the way through these talks and show no consideration for others and have a hard time just "looking at it".
@Onlinesully3 жыл бұрын
hard to know what to say to that. maybe you’re extremely lucky that this is the kind of problem you have in life. or maybe your life is tough in that you are angry at all sorts of things including this small matter.
@bebodhienterprises5 жыл бұрын
How do you know hitting a pillow doesn't work, have you tried it, without experience you can't speak on something as a teacher/instructor. Maybe you tried it but it didn't work for YOU. why do you associate hitting as a practice of anger.(you said hitting the pillow is rehearsal. Peace
@MrWhisperingwildly8 жыл бұрын
Bread for brefast
@Thebustermann7 жыл бұрын
Role play responder I only come here for brekfass
@shyde70087 жыл бұрын
Cannot understand a word he says...his accent.
@daotruong22755 жыл бұрын
S Hyde so that ur not a native English speaker then ;)