How can two 12/5/-1/3 discs fly the exact opposite? because Flight Numbers Don’t Matter | Destroyers

[@danalawton2986]

This is why Disc Golf needs a very well designed and durable throwing machine that will release every disc at the same speed and spin. You then take that machine into a aircraft hangar or dome that does not have wind and test various discs. It is only then that you can accurately assign flight numbers.

[@Iliyena87]

💸💸💸

[@michaelrichards2634]

@@Iliyena87 The sport is growing. Look at how much 💰 is in slow pitch softball and they had a batting robot over 40 years ago.

[@njott1021]

I think it's so difficult to make at the moment because there are so many nuances to the grip that are affected by the rim dome depth ect

[@DrMack9696]

Agreed. Everyone talks about the nuances of throwing a disc, different levers etc. etc. It doesn't need to be perfect, but consistent. It will still be a better system than just making numbers up for marketing purposes.

[@Iliyena87]

@@DrMack9696 I like L64 (+most Triology), it's a distilled version of almost the same persons testing and comparing, that way they will have a great comparable number to the rest of the lineup, buy one and try it and you will know how the rest in the category flies. Not comparable to other manufacturers one again but still nice to have the trust.

[@route5discgolf]

Flight numbers are specific to companies and different plastics and characteristics. I like what Dave said in a recent video, he said at Innova the numbers after the speed are based only on other discs in the same speed. Therefore a fade of 3 is a different meaning in each speed group.

[@bigwooly8014]

I saw an older video (4 or 5 years) showing the angle of rim on destroyers using a pop rivet. The more concave from edge to bottom of rim, the more overstable a disc will be. The more convex, the more understable. Even same run discs had drastic variation. Turn disc upside-down, place pop rivet on the rim and observe the gap or lack of between rivet shank and plastic. Edit: it's a video by "Doth Savek" The secret to finding the right destroyer.

[@michaelr1397]

If you look at the flight charts of the disc they show all disc need to be thrown 350 to 400 ft to get that flight pattern of the disc. Most people don't throw the disc far enough to get correct flight patterns. Like the Destroyer, it's a -1 high-speed turn how many people have their destroyers flip and ride right a little on the flight. That's why when people do throwing disc reviews they need to let people know exactly how far they throw and always throw disc flat on review. Dont flip it or anything so you get a good view of what disc is doing. that way you can decipher if the disc works for you. So conclusion , throwing a disc slower than the manufacturer's throwing flight chart you're going to have a different throwing pattern.

[@mattrobnett58]

Jesus christ, thank you. smdh

[@EricLeeStepp]

Good video. I remember discovering this when I tried to replace a 5x Paul McBeth ESP Buzzz that I lost and I couldn't get the same slight flip out of any that I tried, including another of the same run.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Yea it can be a real challenge to replace a lost disc, the subtle differences in discs make a big difference on the course!

[@jackthayden]

This is a great video. Does a great job illustrating that you can't really trust flight numbers and what discs can compare in many ways to a destroyer for those looking.

[@gwsmallwood]

I agree with your assessment of the MVP drivers. Not as much glide and consistently 30’ shorter than my Wraiths. I’m forehand dominant, so they feel great, they just fly more like fairway distances.

[@JB77776]

I don't get why people hate MVP. Everything you say is proven false over and over again. The pros that switch to MVP do just fine with their distance drivers. While I have found the same with my game. Along with others that actually enjoy the brand.

[@gwsmallwood]

@@JB77776 but I’m not a pro, and neither are 95% of the people who watch these videos. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I can’t pretend my own experience doesn’t matter.

[@JB77776]

@@zachjpg759 well I've tried multiple different companies and I like MVP more. I couldn't be happier with the switch I made. With all due respect our personal experience doesn't matter. The pros are proving MVP can keep up with the best. It's all in your head.

[@zachjpg759]

@@JB77776 I’ve never met a pro or high level ma1 tournament player that actually throws MVP drivers. Dude you just seem butthurt that people have preferences 😂 it’s all good. Not everyone is gonna like what you like. Not the end of the world. That’s coming from someone who has easily spent over $500 just on MVP/ axiom.

[@JB77776]

@@zachjpg759 🤣 The OP post wasn't about preference. It said MVP drivers have less distance than other drivers. I've proven that false with facts. If you want to make yourself feel better and pretend like that's not the stance you took go right ahead, but we both know you are hiding from the facts I presented.

[@dwmichaels]

Yeah, flight numbers are a train wreck. Adding a dozen new manufacturers and 4+ types of plastic hasn't made it any easier. As you mentioned, it's even more complicated when you are not throwing ~400' where discs start to behave like the flight numbers indicate. Then, like you said, you just need to throw them and see what they do. Fun video :) A great discussion.

[@andrewmorse2181]

I've found most of these "disc review videos" are ignoring the possibility that we might throw identical discs non identically.

[@J_Wales]

I’m glad that this is becoming more commonly understood. Could have saved me a lot of trouble within the last 10 years of playing DG lol.

[@nathanbrinson]

Amazing video Greg and SSD! Fantastic format and great quality

[@jessehenderson836]

This is very true. I have a gold line sapphire that I bought hoping for it to be a hyzer flip to slight turn for straighter woods shots. Turns out the thing flies like a glidier firebird, absolutely zero turn. I can actually force it over and it will still fight back, and I 430+ power. What’s also quite interesting is I have a VIP hatchet with almost identical flight numbers, that is my go to hyzer flip machine. It actually took me a while to trust the sapphire to be that glidey overstable slot because of the flight numbers being what they are. I wholeheartedly agree that flight numbers don’t matter and just cause people more confusion than anything.

[@RustySeatbelt]

Thank you for the well-produced vid! I bag two Hurricanes, one the flatter tour series for FH and the other an older domey SP for BH.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Thanks for the kind words! I threw a 2022 Marwede Hurricane for a bit and all I can figure is that I lost it, because I have no idea where it went!

[@OmegaSlice108]

Got an old domey proton Defy and that thing bombs like any other seasoned Destroyer. Cool video, been telling the homies to stop looking at numbers since day one! Haha😅

[@dave9dnb-00]

Gateway Illusion in Cobalt plastic is my favorite disc with destroyer #s. Great on both FH & BH.

[@Burgee_6289]

Is the course footage taken at lobdell? I feel like I recognized the hole. I'm from the greater dayton area but have played there several times over the years. Love the course.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

It is indeed, Hole 4!

[@tommyg5095]

The candid truth is, you can truly appreciate and love the sport of disc golf, but to truly appreciate and love the disc, you must know how that individual disc flies, under varying conditions and your personal throwing techniques....

[@hogibunz834]

Here is a good question. Should the flight numbers be rated based off of a how the disc flies for a professional or an amateur? I know some companies tailor their flight numbers to one or the other.

[@nicksusral7508]

DD Raider has a pretty similar flight. Will hold hyzer, if thrown flat it will turn just a little bit but reliably fade left. More glide than most destroyers I've thrown.

[@Iliyena87]

Fun video! I can recommend the Odin in Storm plastic if the Armor is inconsistent, a bit more stable than the Armor one, also after hitting stuff. The mold is surely crazy flippy and can be used as a roller out of the bag probably. Instead of the Odin I would pick the Valhalla in either plastic as a substitute beat in Star/Champ Destroyer with a bit less dump in the fade :) My headwind driver.

[@brosa1212]

Great video. I'm a D2 and D4 air spectrum thrower cuz its great for a slower arm. Even a lighter gstar destroyer is someone too overstable (depending on the factors you mentioned).

[@SixSidedDiscs]

I wouldn’t mind testing the D2 more, I know the people who like them really really like em!

[@flipflat4814]

First and foremost PLH (Parting Line Height) is king👍. The higher the PLH the more stable the disc is *again only within the same given mold* (example Champion Thunderbird versus Champion Thunderbird) Then the second most important attribute within disc of the *same mold* is the bottom wing shape👍. (Plastic shrinkage resulting in more of a concave lower wing will always lead to more stability (same mold) given that the PLH is the same. The third most important factor between disc of the same mold far as flight dynamics is the shoulder taper transition, (between the nose, and the flight plate) this one is hard to explain without actually showing someone in person and it's also very closely tied into dome or overall dome height. Basically if you're solely judging a particular mold of a disc of different runs solely off of dome alone you're doing yourself a disservice. There are more important physical attributes that take precedence over dome. I think why people gravitate towards dome first is because it's so obvious to see and feel.

[@jist6953]

Great content and well presented guys. Cheers!

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Thanks!

[@stevenjam7119]

One of the issues is every brand see the numbers different. I think if they want more accurate flight numbers the pdga needs to take one specific disc in each combination of flight numbers, then every brand has to base their numbers on this one disc.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

This is an interesting idea

[@ZeroRadishes]

Cool video! What elevation were you at while throwing these discs?

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Great question, I may need to add this to future videos but most of Ohio is around 800-900ft above sea level

[@vicccey1345]

Cool video! i wonder though how throwing style affects the flight......it be interesting if you took the exact same discs and had people like Double G, Heimburg or Eagle throw a straight away shot ....if the angles and speed, etc were all the same would it fly different??

[@SixSidedDiscs]

I would expect them to fly different to some extent. Everyone's throwing style is unique and the amount of spin, angle, speed and torque put on a disc varies tremendously. Watch a few of your friends or local players throw and see how many have the disc come out with OAT (off-axis torque) where the disc wobbles, that wobble has a huge impact on early flight stability, only when the disc levels out can the aerodynamics impact the flight properly. On DGPT, you hear commentators talk about "Calvin lines" because he is able to throw these low, flat 500ft shots with his Destroyer that DoubleG and Eagle can't replicate, they can achieve the same distance, or much further, but typically only with maximum airspace to flex the shot. Glad you're enjoying the content!

[@DrMack9696]

I agree to some extent. IMO, within the same manufacturer, flight numbers are useful, which is why I stick predominantly to one manufacturer.

[@jimmyjam-vc6rf]

Interesting that you think the DD3 flies most similarly to the he Destroyer. I replaced a lost Wraith with a DD1 it feels very similar.

[@jasper3899]

How far did these throws go on average? It would be helpful to put everything in a frame of reference.

[@intrinsic2941]

Flight numbers are just approximations and many other variables can affect the actual flight of the disc like weight, plastic, mold, damage (or 'breaking in'), etc. but flight numbers still "matter." A 5,3,0,1 will fly very differently than a 12,5,-1,3 for instance. It is helpful to know how dramatically other variables can cause the flight to vary though.

[@gmcclure]

Great video. I'm sure you already know this, but doing the same thing with Teebird (7/5/0/2) discs would also be of interest to people.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Love the suggestion there's definitely a few slots on our radar to do soon, 7/5/0/2 is one of them!

[@JayDeeTee]

I started and bought various discs and found flight pattern for me mostly is the missing skill😅 my best discs at the moment are the L64 easy to use discs that feel good when throwing. But my major pain is to add throw techniques to my hyzer throws. Missing time and peops to learn from here

[@shanebentley5630]

I've been a fan of Viking discs, I bag the Berserker (which is outrageously, HILARIOUSLY understable) and the Ragnorok (also way more understable than numbers suggest). If the Odin is this understable. Talk about a brand that shows flight numbers don't matter!

[@callawaycass5148]

The best Destroyer for 99% of players is a Star Wraith.

[@JacobMSmith-tg9cn]

I’ve been throwing Wraiths for a decade now. I know my form isn’t perfect, but I have a ‘22 GG Halo Wraith that flies about as consistently as a paper plate for me!

[@johnraburn1093]

I always laugh a little when someone says it's like a Destroyer. I was told that Innova has at least 5 different molds for Destroyers. At 59 I am still bagging Destroyers just my Calvin Destroyers rarley see the light of day. lol I recently started bagging a couple Echo Star Destroyers and I am loving them flip up to flat slight turn great glide with the fade excpected in a Destroyer. Jusr for reference my max distance with a Destroyer is 300-330 . Side note: just added a 138g Blizzard Destroyer, not sure yet but might be a great old man disc.

[@Mr.Pants45]

Thats why practice is everything. I have an undertaker that is more overstable than my sexton firebird. A zeus that is more flippy than my tern. My blizzard champion wraith is more overstable than my 176 gram socki tour series destroyer. This is why you gotta throw practice rounds and do field work. Every disc, mold, angle, speed, etc is different for everyone. Finding out how to throw the disc you have will save you time and money in the long run. Also, throw mid ranges and putters!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@thingamarob]

You didn't show coverage of the Emperors, but can you comment on how they flew?

[@SixSidedDiscs]

The way we approached this video, we were looking for a disc that stood out in each slot for Max's destroyers, the only Emperor we had available for testing was a G Blend Emperor that was surprisingly overstable for the plastic, I really expected it to have a lot of turn but it didn't.

[@trevzy91]

The fission photon is the sweet spot in my opinion. I was throwing a orbit grace until I lost it, it was slightly less stable than the fission photon. I keep a neutron photon in the bag too for my really overstable slot.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

I've found the fission starts out just as stable as other plastic but beats in faster to reflect the different flight numbers. The Proton Photon we just got in feels amazing to me but I know its crazy OS

[@VojtechRozsival]

Comparing discontinued GrymX and missing out Guld (same numbers as Destro) feels a bit strange.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

In our defense, the Grym X wasn't discontinued when we recorded that video, and the Guld is 13/5/-0.5/3, which is certainly close, but probably falls into the long list of discs we'll have to compare in Part 2 of 12/5/-1/3 like the Raider from DD.

[@Dongerd]

Find this very true for the Ballista Pro. I think its a 14/4/0/3, but most of then flip over and bomb, some of them roller flippy and others very stable

[@michaelrichards2634]

Yep. First Balista Pro was beefy. I liked it. Lost it so replaced it and the new one was flippier than my Trespass. Also had a Havoc with similar numbers to the Destroyer. It was stable for about a week and without really beating it in, it decided to flip into a roller. More flippy than my Hatchet. Flight numbers do matter, but not as much as getting out and throwing everything to set up your bag.

[@alyjos9103]

Imo disc manufacturers know that most players wouldn't be able to keep up with a pro's arm speed thus they make the 12 5 -1 3 more in line with that of an avg am player throwing probably anywhere from 300 to 350. This is what I keep in mind when buying discs.

[@nathanwilson7929]

I can tell when I don't get enough spin and the flight of the disc becomes more stable (also doesn't throw as far). I know when I over crank some discs by throwing them too hard, it will become more understable. I think the issue arises from spin and speed: rotation vs yeet. Rotation keeps it in the air and determines the 1st number: if that first number isn't met, then the last two numbers mean nothing. The spin helps fight the wind. The speed is literally how hard you throw. In concert you can throw 200ft but the high spin keeps it aloft giving you 300. Little spin gives you 250. Now you double the spin it can fight the drag and become understable. And I think that's the problem, we can't consistently control the spin and the speed for not only testing, but per each throw. Which may carry over to mechanical releases giving the same spin each throw, and increasing the speed of release, but if you give that disc more spin the flight would be different. Don't get me wrong there's probably a close correlation with spin and speed for most players, but it's all dependent on grip, and technique, and timing. But as a newer player I can sometimes tell as soon as it leaves my hand that the disc didn't spin fast enough (I think typically due to poor grip or wrist snap). There's definitely a minimum threshold for rotation of the disc for the reach its flight numbers. And you definitely need air moving across the disc, which will really to arm speed. But I think human variation and the lackability to test the rotation is the reason we have so much variability in these flight results.

[@wreagin1]

The gateway illusion is my favorite destroyer

[@tpuryear5408]

I take your point. I personally also think you would need a machine to throw the disc to tell what's going on. Some of those shots were higher or faster. Plus I think discs help but its really the thrower. Everyone wants to study discs like it matters. Discs go left, they go right, they go straight. Not that hard. But its not going to do the same thing EVERYTIME you throw it.

[@holypaper]

Flight numbers definitely don't matter if you aren't meeting the speed threshold required. If you are, then they are just indicators of what it should do in stable conditions. Wear and tear is whole other topic entirely.

[@JoshJackson13]

Destroyer is my best headwind disc. It's literally my only disc that don't turn over. Other than my machete

[@JoshJackson13]

Zues has alota glide but hates a headwind. I throw 400 4hand and backhand.

[@kyleweir689]

It’s far less important what the guy’s rating is, far more important how far he typically throws, how fast he throws, etc.

[@davelopez9161]

The real issue is that you can't test drive a disc before buying it. That's why so many golfers had loads of discs in their closet that they don't like or can't throw. But...disc golf manufacturers are really happy about it. You mention some of the things that factor in to the flight path of a disc but then you neglect to mention at what elevation Max is. His release veleocity. HIs spin rate. Wind speed. Temperature, trajectory angle Without that information, how the disc flies for Max can not be compared to how it's going to fly for me. This would be beneficial if you remake the video and include this data so that I can relate to it. And please use only new discs. I've heard several pros state that they use new discs. This is so if they lose one, the can acquire a new one with similar flight characteristics. I disagree about the flight numbers. Or are you suggesting that I purchase every disc in your shop to find out which ones feel good to me? How else will golfers decide which disc to purchase?

[@kevinkingmaker7395]

Two discs with the exact same plastic, weight and mold can fly radically different. It's a trial-and-error crap shoot whenever you buy a new disc.

[@marklethemagic]

I came back here from the Thunderbird video. I'd love to see a video on Distance Driver glide. Also maybe increasing the research to be thrown by the 983 rated, but also by a ~900 rated player.

[@michaelrichards2634]

Should have tested the DD Raider.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

We’ll have to do a second one on 12/5/-1/3 in the future, I know we missed a few

[@michaelrichards2634]

@@SixSidedDiscs My bad. Just realized the Raider is a 13 speed.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

@@michaelrichards2634 Well as we've established, Flight Numbers Don't Matter lol, but we also tested a D2 which is technically a 13 speed (according to Prodigy) so...maybe the Raider is one of those that's on the edge of being a 12, hard to say! Hopefully we can test it in the future!

[@InbredJed82060]

Way to make buying discs so much more confusing and making people question everything

[@coleduvall4951]

Y’all should compare a Destroyer to a D2 Pro. They have the same flight numbers but it seems way more stable than any destroyer i’ve thrown

[@clawshooter5867]

The discaft zeus has the same numbers as a destroyer but way more understable

[@ADamItalian1173]

Shout out to millennium for putting the batch number and the run number with the name of the disc embossed

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Infinite includes a run number and how many were made as I understand it, which I've heard many people use to try to locate discs that SHOULD fly the same as others. I'm sure there's still some variation.

[@joeillingworth1141]

They do. But there's also variation

[@LILWagonBurner]

I’ll do you one better I have 2 boss’ and one of them is the most over stable disc I have ever thrown and the other is the most under stable and they are the same mold!

[@kyleweir689]

It’s highly unlikely that any of this guy’s discs have been thrown even 1000 times, let alone “if not thousands of times”. On a course with a par of 54 you MIGHT throw a driver once on each hole… you’d have to play over 50 rounds with a single disc off the tee just to reach 1000 throws with that disc. In practice in the field you might throw a single disc 10-15 times? So 70-100 field sessions to have a disc thrown just 1000 times.

[@nsmeier]

I play a 29 hole course and through my main driver at least 20x per round. In the last 8 months I have played the course over 100 times. That would equal 2000 throws

[@choseneball3526]

no 2 destroyers are the same. its been know for a long time now!

[@hotdogandahayride9823]

Makes me wish my 52 year old arm and back could throw hard enough to get ANY of my -1 discs to seem flippy. :(

[@peyton7683]

My Odin neve turned over ever lol

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Based on how it flew for us, I'm shocked! lol

[@harrisonvargo]

This is why you just gotta throw putters

[@De24x]

if flight numbers don't matter then why put flight numbers on a disc ?? 🤣🤦‍♂ the numbers are an estimate and change from run to run. ☮

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Oh I agree, there are just a lot of people who take them as gospel and it is interesting to see how different they fly

[@mattrobnett58]

"Aerodynamics don't matter" Indeed. My latest meta tilt is super flippy. It turns over constantly!

[@dougbutabi5085]

When you have a slower arm speed such as beginners or intermediates, the numbers do in fact matter a lot more than if you have a faster arm

[@a.michaeld4981]

I slowed down this video and almost every single throw are released on different angles ? And also fall to the left on backhand close to the same degree? Yes if you throw any disc on different angles or flat etc they will all fly different. 100% this logic you could have this same Thrower athlete throw 100 of the same discs and I can bet they will be all over the fricking place because he doesn’t throw the same release ever ? I’m just saying. You throw a Nuke SS wrong by the wrong degrees out of your handle and it’s gonna dive or not go where your wanting it too.

[@a.michaeld4981]

Also like… the numbers don’t mean the discs are designed the same… they will all be their own version of those numbers… could a top thrower pick what discs he likes off his own feel and like for the flight of a disc? Fricking obviously lol, the speeds aren’t 100% a certain speed or movement… it’s like gradual that this is most often when thrown how they fly.. and throw differently to manipulate the disc.. some numbers can help you categorize discs that do what the numbers suggest.

[@Kryptic513]

I gained arm speed at 38.

[@chrisrhome6638]

Honestly people just need to start blaming themselves instead of the disc. There's no way your buddy here can throw each different disc exactly the same.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

I know I can’t throw the same every time, nor can Max but he is more consistent than me for sure! I don’t want to sound too concrete in our findings, we are just analyzing what we have and drawing some rough conclusions, It was fun to see the wide variety

[@KarstRats]

Simple answer is. You're a human and can't throw the same way every single time on command. They fly the same. It's just us as humans. a .5 degree difference at release could translate to a 30 foot wider turn over.

[@williamhubert6299]

It may be the simple answer but it’s also the wrong one

[@KarstRats]

@@williamhubert6299 nonits literally not. You think your perfect William? Throw same exact way every single time? If that were the case pros wouldn't even worry about oar they would just ace....

[@SeeWorldKevin]

@@KarstRats you’re insinuating the injection molding process they use is consistent and act is if you’re privy to this knowledge. The following info is for high quality STATIONARY parts, never mind an item intended to be cheap and replaced like a disc. When you mold plastic, regardless of material or operational quality, you will have issues and inconsistencies when produced in numbers. Period. That includes all the issues within the plastic itself. even if ALL measurements are perfect, your plastic is not.

[@KarstRats]

@@SeeWorldKevin but they still have the same shape. Dude getting a completely different flight shape is literally just throwing inconsistently as well. I get different runs have different ammounts of fade and stuff but people saying that two discs from the same run have a different flight shape? One might fade harder than the other yes. But that shape will stay partially the same. Just like every atlas I've ever had has been dead straight and faded off to the left only and only once is started to slow down never to the right. If it faded to the right it at all it would literally be because (I) put anny on it.

[@williamhubert6299]

@@KarstRats and manufacturers define things differently and the whole process is subjective so discs with the same flight numbers fly very differently

[@HonduDan]

This is excellent information, thank you!

[@discgolflife]

Flight numbers matter 😂! Most people playing disc golf shouldn't be throwing high speed disc. They don't have the arm speed or form. That being said, not all disc are created equal. Plastic type and mold have a lot to do with it. A brand new star leopard 3 or a brand new Star Destroyer doesn't fly like a 2020 star Leo or destroyer does. Why? They changed their plastics. Another thing quit comparing other companies flight numbers to each other lol. Some brands don't even have the same rating system and use different materials to make there plastics. Common sense folks 😂!

[@JohnFnLopez]

Flight numbers are a scam designed to create sales. It's an old casino trick. Just look at any craps table and the big screen showing the previous 15 results. Each spin is random. The previous results have no bearing on the outcome of the next spin, yet gamblers look at that board and think, "red is due" and they bet bigger. Otherwise, the speed of a disc would be a MPH number associated with the speed number. How fast does a 5 speed need to fly? Or a12 speed? If you claim Speec refers to the spin speed, then an RPM would be associated. What about the flight of any disc is not measurable? You can measure angles, arm speed, flight speed, spin speed, glide distance, wind resistance, the amount of turn and glide...all measurable characteristics. The fact that flight numbers seem to have NOTHING to do with anything scientific should be a big clue that flight numbers are bullshit.