How Can We Uphold the Treaty of Waitangi Going Forward? Panel Discussion (Part 3 of 3)

[@willboulton2393]

"A secular view of our history is unable to hold us together" Malcolm Faloon.

[@peterford113]

I enjoyed this series.. keep this discussion going please

[@LeeRaela-w3m]

I appreciate the genuine effort to thoughtfully and humbly discuss this foundation stone of shared history, the Treaty (Te Tiriti). My concern with regards honoring the Treaty is if we cant agree on what it said, what was meant, especially in Article 1, how can we move forward? I love the marriage analogy, and with that, Christ is our Sovereign, but constitutionally what does that mean? Clearly there was a desire in 1840 by those with faith and integrity to move forward harmoniously, respecting each other. But can there be only One Sun in the Sky as far as rulership goes? Under all the angst and anger we see currently is hurt and mistrust due to past wrongs and fear that one or other party wont be heard or respected. It is so true that as both parties look to Christ Ihu Karaiti, we have a chance at healing and walking in the reconciliation that was purchased for us at such cost. I love the early stories of courage and friendship between Maori and pakeha. I would love for these stories to be heard across Aotearoa New Zealand as I think they would inspire renewed hope for a future together. I have some ideas for this!

[@brentreid7408]

Did slaves taken by conquering tribes have any rights before they were eaten? It was the treaty that set them free.

[@raywheeler3135]

Did the middle eastern people that were eaten by the European Crusaders have any rights?

[@Duckz558]

whats that even have to do with the discussion they having here???dumb?

[@DW_Kiwi]

Yes. Now that is true history. And Because the Crown now had Sovereignty. Utu /warring, Cannibalism and infanticide and by the way Maori Witchcraft (Tikanga folk lore) were "banned!"

[@richardohalloran9901]

I think that the Church has a lot to offer in this debate. The Treaty was signed between two ethnic groups Pakeha and Maori. As a result of intermarriage, today, we have many part-Maori New Zealanders who identify as Maori. In Christ there is no distinction between male or female, Jew or Greek etc.

[@CITA7687]

I'd really like to point out something that I keep seeing in a lot of the korero, from a whole lot of different people and I think it's something that is worth thinking about. This panel have actually made me think about it a bit more as well. I think most people agree that Te Tiriti was signed between 2 sovereign nations- 1 happened to be British in 1840 and the other happened to be Maori in 1840. Today, in both these sovereign nations you have people who have mixed heritage (since 1840) British/anything in the world & Maori/anything in the world. So you have a whole lot of "part" British people and a whole lot of "part" Maori today. Falling in love and having babies with someone not of your culture is not exclusive to Maori. I think this idea that only Maori are "parts" is actually illogical when you look at things honestly. Loved this panel discussion, it was refreshing to see a respectful korero, with so many gems in all the whakaaro.

[@brentreid7408]

Maori were not a sovereign nation when the treaty was signed but were a diverse group of tribes with no one leader representing everyone. That's why so many cheifs signed.

[@korowheke3182]

@@brentreid7408 they were a Confederation of Hapu-Nations who declared the Tino Rangatiranga of their state in 1835 (note that was only 57 years after the American Articles of Confederation that create their United States, even the UK is a Union of four different Nations with different cultures and leaders created in 1707)

[@brentreid7408]

​@@korowheke3182But there was no single group or cheif that had total overall authority over these islands. Maori were not one united nation.

[@DW_Kiwi]

So. There no difference between ethnicities then. That makes Maori Activists/Revisionists racist

[@korowheke3182]

The Treaty was signed by Rangatira o Nga Hapu NOT by Maori, ethnicity has nothing to do with the Treaty, its a relationship of Nations coming together in Confederation and granting Kawanatanga to the British Crown for the Preservation of Tino Rangatiratanga and the Maintenance of Peace and Good Order.

[@DW_Kiwi]

Tino Rangatiratanga over what the Rangatira owned. They subsequently SOLD their land to repay debt. (They were on a spending spree) and they wanted all the Settlers high tech. Iron nails, Jews harps, Clothes and muskets etc

[@davethewave7248]

The problem with the Waitangi Treaty is it was a missionary one. The statesmen involved also were heavily influenced by the Church Missionary Society [which sent out NZ's first missionaries]. What was required was a more politcal and pragmatic approach. The treaty was ruled by the British Parliament Report into NZ to be an injudicious document. It plagued the early history of NZ... and has come back again to plague us today. The treaty is not a sacred document but a secular one. The problem with it was that the church had to much influence in the politics [these two, chuch and state, should have been separated]. Henry Williams recognized as much after the close of the Heke/ northern/ flagstaff war. In 1845, the missionary influnce is NZ politics was distanced form the politics... as it always should've been. The treaty was not a marriage... but an adoption. "The treaty didn't give maori any new rights that they didn't already have". This is just obviously wrong. On signing the treaty, the chiefs became British subjects and enabled to enjoy the full privileges of British law. This is especially outlined in article 3 of the treaty. The practicality of this was that chiefs were no longer able to wage war on other chiefs, and that all Maori were protected from enemy tribes etc. The musket/ tribal wars stopped on the signing of the treaty. Context. The missionaires had the interests of Maori in mind. They were initially opposed to colonization, but reluctantly agreed to it once it was obvious that settlement was on the way. This reluctance is expressed in the conditions of the treaty, and by the earliest governors [Hobson and Fitzroy] in still treating NZ as a protectorate for Maori, remaining hostile to the settlers. It was not until Grey came at the end of the Heke war that this partisanship was overcame, with governors then moving forward more pragmatically. Our politics moved on. Of course, this would be sacrilege to those on the panel but that is our history. To elevate the treaty to a sacred document today, and pander to radical Maori neo-nationalism [they did not cede sovereignty etc] would be a huge mistake for our country.

[@kiatupato182]

If you care about equality of rights and responsibility... all who support the Bill need to do a couple important things first. Over 26,000 Hectares of Maori Land locked in perpetual leases right now. Maori owners not allowed to charge Fair market rates and make a Fair income for over 100 years. Thousands of acres of Maori Land on 99 year leases. Many not paying a Fair lease rate (many not paying anything) for decades now, which is reason enough to break lease. Some say 'but look at the improvements I have made' but you haven't paid a Fair Lease fee for decades, viewing it just as 'Maori Land'. Take the buildings and move onto other Land where you get Free or extremely low lease rates. Fair Treatment? Equality? These Lease agreements are modern day scamming and theft over a span of 50,60,70,80,90,100 plus years. Until these unequal Treatment of Maori get rectified, all who support the Bill are HYPOCRITES

[@karri-annvercoe-black5119]

Great to see Alistair Reese on here author of Tatau Pounamu.

[@gerradanania8270]

Never heard of Alister but I really like his attitude and comments. And the younger of the two Māori chaps was really insightful as well☝🏽❤️

[@elsacrone]

10:50 "the Maori side of the equation in 1840 was ethnically Maori and everyone on the crown side of the relationship in 1840 was ethnically British, but now in 2424 we still have that Maori - Crown relationship and Maori are still ethnically Maori but the Crown side of the relationship now looks ethnically diverse". I would argue that Maori are now also ethnically diverse.

[@DW_Kiwi]

Absolutely. No Full blooded Maori anymore and most, no more than one quarter. If one decides to "be" Maori. You should have to take a DNA test!!

[@kiatupato182]

The Bill is inciting hatred toward Maori. It's disgusting.

[@willboulton2393]

Can someone give an answer to what on earth is that red carved image behind Alistair? Is it there to provide spiritual protection, ward off bad spirits from other tribes? or does it tell a story of local cultural significance?

[@briancampbell6582]

It's called a waharoa, traditionally an entrance to a fortified pa (Maori village). It was usually a guardian that was carved and so it would have cultural significance.

[@simon-ds1vp]

ps the fool who thinks the Waitangi tribunal is an unbiased subjective body needs to perhaps sharpen up,,

[@DW_Kiwi]

For the last 50 years!!

[@kingfillins4117]

It’s reasonably simple what the treaty did was it pave the way was established common law. Common law, being the way to establish a nation state. A nation state cannot be Established based on Tikanga. Is astonishing that he just said as a christian that the treaty gives him a foundation of who he is in this land. Sure first and foremost it is God that does that and God has no affiliation with race Or dividing people by their race. If the treaty as the pledge stated establishes one people, then why Maori separatists demand a Maori Parliament via he Puapua? The Hikoi was a Maori party funding drive. Organised by TMP ..It wasn’t grass roots. The organizers lied to the participants. They did it let Luxon speak because it’s not about partnership. It’s about Maori supremacy for TPM.

[@DW_Kiwi]

Yep. Tikanga sure isn't Christian!! We also do NOT want He Puapua implemented.

[@JCComingSoon777]

Psalms 24:1 The King of Glory and His Kingdom A Psalm of David. The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein. Psalms 24:3 Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord? Or who may stand in His holy place? Psalms 24:4 The one who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not trust in an IDOL or swear by a FALSE GOD

[@stephenlennon7369]

The Treaty of Waitangi doesn't oppress non-Maori it actually protect all NZers interest in this country especially our natural resources from oversea corporate takeova. There is no extra-rights for Maori only what was acknowledged by the english monarchy pre-existing the treaty.

[@DW_Kiwi]

Sorry. That is not want the Maori Eliete or the Activists want. Have you read the He Puapua road map?? I would say you have"nt. Completely separate "Duel governments" by 2040. With Maori also has right of veto of the other goverement!!!!

[@stephenlennon7369]

The missionaries who where religious people had a significant role in shaping NZ history and formulating the Treaty of Waitangi remember they were in symbiosis with British imperialism and to a large extent colluding against maoridom

[@willboulton2393]

Do you mean colluding against pagan tribalism, where retribution and revenge was the way of life?

[@davethewave7248]

They had the interests of Maori in mind. They were initially opposed to colonization, but reluctantly agreed to it once it was obvious that settlement was on the way. This reluctance is expressed in the treaty, and by the earliest governors [Hobson and Fitzroy] in still treating NZ as a protectorate for Maori, remaining hostile to the settlers. It was not until Grey came at the end of the Heke war that this partisanship was overcame, with governors then moving forward more pragmatically. The treaty was thought an injudicious document back in the British Parliament Report on NZ in 1844... and our politics moved on. Of course, this would be sacrilege to those on the panel but that is our history. To elevate the treaty to a sacred document today, and pander to radical Maori neo-nationalism [they did not cede sovereignty etc] would be a huge mistake for our country.

[@djpomare]

The hikoi attendance were multi-racial and multi-generational. Multiple gangs under the truce of Kotahitanga were also present. Our nation including the rest of the world saw how unified we all were. Te Tiriti ensures Māori are at the decision table. Co-governance rather than separate governments ensures government laws meet matauranga and ecological criteria that affect all New Zealanders. Don't allow the 8% who voted for the Act Party and paid for by the Atlas Network, cloud your judgement. If we truly want to vote for fairness, then let's change the Bill to a Treaty vs UK Royals Principles Bill.

[@brentreid7408]

The hikoi was united, the country is divided. The Maori party only got 3% of the vote. The coalition of Nats, NZfirst, Act got 52%. They are against co governance. All laws in the country are made by elected governments. If you want matauranga (Maori spirituality) and environmental laws other than what we already have then a majority government voted in by the people are the ones to do that, not a small group of people. Who are the Atlas group? Do you have any evidence they support Act? Co governance is separatism.

[@raywheeler3135]

False. Co-governance was first applied in law by National in 1991. David Seymour is on record stating that he thinks co-governance is appropriate if it is part of a Treaty settlement. You are spouting nonsense and making stuff up.

[@djpomare]

@@brentreid7408 yeah nah yeah it's True. Didn't see any Reids on Te Tiriti. Pomare is the 3rd signatory. Type Atlas Network into a browser.

[@DW_Kiwi]

Read the He Puapua road map. Then come back and say what you said again!!

[@djpomare]

@@DW_Kiwi I was at the hikoi at parliament. There was safety in the unity.

[@brentreid7408]

So much waffle but no conclusion as to what Kiwis want. Kiwis want all to be equal, no co governance, no special rights for anybody based on race, democracy based on one man one vote and the law applied equally to all. Moreover stop using taxpayers money to pay for every pet Maori project. Hope for a better future? Whats not better than the ceasing of inter tribal wars, slavery and cannibalism ? Maori life expectancy and health improved, acquired education and justice via the far superior British law. Early Maori coveted British technology, especially guns which they used to kill each other in massive numbers up until the treaty which is why the wise old cheifs signed. To give sovereignty to a greater power to achieve the aforementioned. To say Maori didn't cede sovereignty is to disagree with leaders like Apirana Ngata and Peter Buck. Also cheifs gathered at Kohimarama in 1860.

[@raywheeler3135]

You have no idea what kiwis want only what you want. What you want is to colonise Maori and take away their legally guaranteed property rights

[@Duckz558]

bird brain😂😂don’t speak for all us kiwis 😜

[@DW_Kiwi]

@@Duckz558 Bird brain!! You must be a an abusive maori. Get this. Most of us Kiwis want equality!!

[@LanceHaenga]

Churches doin jack jst like cath

[@willboulton2393]

Looking at the make-up of the protest march, it appears lefties have joined in as a group protesting against a righty government. I'm sure there are as many, if not more, different ethnicities who are against separatism and would be happy for a referendum? Also, what do Maori actually want. A return to their ancestral tribal lands, when most now live in towns, cities and Australia? Does that mean an abandonment of private property rights and separate voting rights? Do Maori want everyone to learn their language and take part in their cultural practices? Their language is being forced on us by government, councils and media. Do farmers have to gain Maori permission to build-on or develop their land? Do we have to gain Maori permission to walk up their rivers and to climb their mountains or swim at their beaches? What happens to Maori who are happy with the democratic system we have and do not want a return to a tribal culture? Do they no longer fit in anywhere? All of a sudden, things have become rather awkward around the dinner table of many mixed-race families and work-places.

[@raywheeler3135]

Oh dear how dare those nasty lefties use the Democratic process to express their opinions. It is obvious when you see those farmers protesting on their tractors that they have been infiltrated by righties so we obviously should ignore their opinions too.

[@Duckz558]

around your dinner table it seems lol who’s pressuring anyone to learn te reo maori it’s a language of the first inhabitants of tis country thats all it is if you don’t want to participate your choice lol as for the other remarks you making like the lands should be returned as is farmers would of made there pot of gold many times over in the span of 90 80 70 60 50 years generational

[@willboulton2393]

@@Duckz558 Yes it is the original language when there were just Maori and Moriori here. Today NZ has many ethnicities who also have a first language, but it's English, which is the common language, that we all use to communicate with each other irrespective of our backgrounds. As for being pressured to learn a language we may not want to learn, take this panel for instance, they continually insert Maori words into their sentences knowing full well most listeners will not be able to understand them. Surely why continue to do it? Also people in Government, councils and media have taken it upon themselves to change the name of our country and cities without any type of majority consensus or even discussion or debate.

[@Duckz558]

@ other ethnicities along with european are not original inhabitants of aotearoa , in their homes or in public yes by no means anyone can speak their language nothing against that but being the first language of tis country is te reo maori from the first inhabitants maori

[@korowheke3182]

SO if I say yes to all of those do I get them? Who determines that our current situation of destructive consumerism, environmental degradation, urban sprawl and cultural disconnection is where we as country want to be? Maybe the only reason you are feeling awkward is because you refuse to consider different ways of doing things ...

[@simon-ds1vp]

a thought to ponder,,, the missionary and their respective churches were not exactly squeaky clean in there dealings with Maori particularly when it came to land , perhaps with you guys representing both Maori and church men , FYI your views seem somewhat objective , Maori from what I have read (eye witness accounts and historical writings) it wasn't a one way relationship iat the time it gave Maori the protection of the most powerful empire in the world at the time, from the French who seemed to have a bee in their bonnet , yes there has been some bad stuff ,, ethnicity is such a shitty identifier, Maori conceded sovierenty period ! there is plenty of clear and concise evidence to support this and unfortunately non to support the partnership non relinquishment of sovierenty, a ridiculous notion that somehow Maori manadged to gain the shield of the British empire , the laws of said empire, and all the other things they wanted, as for that rather transparent attempt to compare marriage to te tirity,, there are a set of rules in a marriage, so its laughable you guys are pathetic really , one of you even tried to tell us that christ was still a jew,, once again religion meddles with its own agenda wahoo

[@glennhowlett2082]

Sorry boys I’m all Maoried out for this week, I’ve eaten so much it’s starting to make feel unwell.

[@djpomare]

Sounds good. Party at your place with a big feed of mashed potato and fish fingers.

[@gerradanania8270]

​@@djpomareas if Māori are some play thing that ya put back in the box when you've had enough! I'm keen for fish fingers and mash, where's the party🎉😂

[@Duckz558]

@@gerradanania8270 😂😂