How China Went From Economic Superstar to Faltering Giant

In just a few years, the narrative on China has almost completely flipped. The dominant sentiments in America had been awe, envy and a kind of fear. China’s growth seemed relentless. Its manufacturing prowess was lapping ours. It weathered the pandemic without the mass death seen in the West. It could build housing and transit and infrastructure at a speed we could no longer even imagine.
And then, as 2022 ticked over to 2023, things changed. China’s real estate bubble popped. Its Zero Covid policies turned pathological. Its leader, Xi Jinping, turned what many saw as a technocracy with autocratic characteristics into something closer to a plain old autocracy. Foreign investors began looking to diversify. Companies that had long relied on China, like Apple, began trying in earnest to build manufacturing chains elsewhere. And under President Biden, American policy toward China began to match Trumpian rhetoric toward China: Slowing China’s rise, and building America’s ability to manufacture crucial goods, became central goals.
So what’s true about China right now? Which of these narratives, if any, hold water? Dan Wang is the technology analyst at Gavekal Dragonomics and a visiting scholar at Yale Law School’s Paul Tsai China Center. He focuses particularly on the core vector of U.S.-China competition: technological innovation and manufacturing prowess. Each year, his annual letter about what China can do, and how it does it, is eagerly awaited by many in the United States who are trying to understand that nation’s rise. In 2020 and 2021, those letters were profoundly bullish on China. In 2022, his sentiments turned. And so I wanted to explore the various sides of the China story with him.
Mentioned:
“China’s Hidden Tech Revolution (www.foreignaffairs.com/china/...) ” by Dan Wang
2020 Letter (danwang.co/2020-letter/) by Dan Wang
2021 Letter (danwang.co/2021-letter/) by Dan Wang
2022 Letter (danwang.co/2022-letter/) by Dan Wang
Book Recommendations:
The Jesuits (press.princeton.edu/books/har...) by Markus Friedrich
Last and First Men (www.google.com/books/edition/...) by Olaf Stapledon
Disturbing the Universe (www.basicbooks.com/titles/fre...) by Freeman Dyson
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [e-mail].
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Roge Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Efim Shapiro. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Pat McCusker and Kristina Samulewski.

[@Bernard-fo2qo]

I didn't understand a thing the Chinese guy said. He is very slick, very clever in how to say nothing while he talks.

[@chrisgoeswest9882]

Sorry I just find it astounding that someone could make the statement that 2020 - 2021 was a “fun” time to live in China.

[@faustinae3927]

I think he was talking about the wealthy people

[@user-te4of2fq5d]

🖐️🤣 My mouth flew open Whaaat ❓ Hey, the beach, golf, and tennis are fun China boy..you need work on fun, honey,

[@Ethandavisbaker]

I also lived in China for the past decade. In 2020 and 2021, China was far from a nice place to be. Really hard to listen to the rest of this when someone could also be in China could be so ignorant to the pain and suffering that was caused in those years by the Chinese policies.

[@marcvangastel2157]

Like interviewing someone in North Korea for his opinion on Kim and the regime, seriously...

[@davidchou1675]

Yeah no carry on, China's the absolute worst -- why, just look at how closely they put their country right next to all those American military bases!! One or two could be a coincidence but we're talking about dozens here...they definitely did that on purpose! Just like they're purposely outcompeting the whitean at his own game -- why, that's just not fair!! Someone get them a Chinese translation for how this globalization schtick is supposed to work...apparently the C.P.C. didn't understand that they're supposed to just be a Japan or South Korea, self-hating white-worshippers who are happy happy happy to join the Global American Empire!

[@kreek22]

More like interviewing an American in a high profile position on Biden and Obama's regime. Don't be the first to stop clapping. Comrade Obaba might notice.

[@MrArunbharatram]

Your expert glosses over the fact that the Chinese government and industry colluded in keeping costs down by giving under the table subsidies to the corporates. Otherwise these companies would not be able to reinvest over a over again. Also the developed world woke up too late to counter unfair trade practices by the Government. The WTO mechanism is also loaded in favour of the Chinese as it can often take two or more years to prove unfair practices. By then local industries are crippled. This is exactly what happened to the steel industry. Even when anti dumping duties are imposed they are absorbed by the Chinese companies through collusion with the banks. So it’s a clever waiting game the Chinese have played to cut to size international competition. Not to mention the blatant plagiarism and stealing of technology that has been a factor of success for the Chinese companies.

[@kreek22]

The Western elite allowed all of this to happen. Why wouldn't the CCP seek to increase its power if no one is willing to stop them?

[@jimgraham6722]

US does the same, often by simple repeat bailouts (banks, auto manufacturers) and more subtle by a myriad of over priced defence contracts. It's pretty much the same everywhere, corporates thrive off governments showering them with cash.

[@tomcarroll4785]

@@jimgraham6722The amount of subsidies is not comparable. The US does it to help companies and industries survive. China does it on a scale so that Chinese companies can underprice and wipe out foreign competition. There’s a difference.

[@jimgraham6722]

@@tomcarroll4785 Maybe but not much. I guess it's a matter of survive vs survive and thrive. If course US corporates have done their fair share of thriving and many still do, often with strong government support of one type or another. Generally these supports take the form of set up subsidies, overpriced contracts, disguised payments, tax holidays or outright protection. The bailouts only come when things get rough. When it comes to matters industrial, the Chinese are more overtly strategic. If they want an industry the government simply buys it. There are no qualms about this because although China uses free markets for goods and services, they don't follow capitalism at the strategic level. At that level the government decides the allocation of capital. In the end in terms of overall economic outcome, it is how you dress it up. There is probably not much difference because while markets work very well at the goods and services level, they are prone to failures and inefficiencies at the strategic level, mainly due to externalities. Of course there is nothing to feel bad about this. In the end around the world every government does much the same thing, because they want development and people in jobs, not on the dole.

[@davidlai399]

How much subsidy for US agriculture?

[@Twangstarr]

A tip to anyone listening to any so called “China experts”. If they’re based in the PRC or need the good graces of the Chinese govt to continue their work in China - take their narrative with a massive dose of salt. For example there were several comments re the benefits of the Chinese solar industry but not a single mention of modern slavery issues in that supply chain and frankly what contributes to the falling costs. Why - because he would be dragged off to the nearest police station for “tea” the moment he gets back in China.

[@00Julian00]

better to believe in american propaganda right?

[@bordedup546]

@@00Julian00 Better not to reduce arguments down to propaganda or not but rather to explore counter arguments for any argument and make up your own mind by weighing up both sides to see which is more compelling. If we can't decide then that's fine too, I'm sure it was difficult to predict the outcome of the cold war in 1945. We're all adults here, we can decide for ourselves what is true and what is not

[@scarfacejosh123]

China has "a little bit too much" state capacity?

[@jeffreyharris3440]

I heard that too. Absolutely shameful. This is "wolf warrior" diplomacy, with the slight adjustment being that the wolf is in sheep's clothing. Infant girls being left on the side of the road and millions of forced sterilization is not "a little bit too much state capacity". There is some use to hearing what your adversary (and make no mistake, the CCP is an adversary of the United States and its people) has to say can be thought provoking, but way he hand waves sheer inhumane brutality is deeply disappointing. And "disappointing" isn't really even the best word for it. Shocking? Enraging? Scary? Appalling? I do wish the interviewer had pushed more on that. So far I'm half way through the interview, and I don't hear much about the oncoming demographic collapse, the capital flight, the over-leveraged real estate sector that makes up 30% of China's economy, the lack of water, the casual dismissal of useless infrastructure and empty model cities.

[@austriasalzburg]

I equally was shocked by this minimisation. Chinese authoritarian state overreach is massive and has to be condemned not minimised by using "a little bit"

[@ljiangrsf]

As a Chinese who was born and grew up in China in the 70s’ and migrated to the United States in the 80s’, I felt that Dan Wang is in alignment with Xi. He kept justifying the Chinese government and Xi for their wrongdoing. Although he pointed out some issues in China, he kept ‘a bit of …’ often as he discussed the problems. Sound like ‘大外宣‘.

[@janesmith506]

Ezra Klein does not disclose that Dan Wang is working for a Beijing-based economics research firm, according to the Yale Law School website, where Wang is a visiting scholar. The mini-bio on the Yale website says that Wang has been researching on China while in China for the last six years, in Beijing, Hong Kong, and Shanghai. Hmmm, so it seems interesting to me that he could be so positive about how China's government could be doing so well on so many fronts.

[@jeffhicks8428]

whatever makes you feel better.

[@MlHayes]

I agree that much of what we see in the Russian conundrum is identical to the China phenomenon. The State is gambling on making the correct choice and banking on the population to pull them out of bad choices. We recognize the fact that the guy has some good reasons to follow the party line.

[@kreek22]

What a deep ad hominem response. You must be an NY Times zombie.

[@joebullwinkle5099]

In other words just another propaganda vessel for the Chinese communist party. Now that CCP has quite successfully alienated the rest of the World with their hostile actions , they are now on a great charm offensive! Be warned of people like Wang!

[@W_Bin]

That's a good qualification being able to comment. Should have been disclosed!

[@dnahaller376]

The message Dan Wang seems to be saying, least this is my impression, is that there's nothing wrong with what China is doing and the US should allow China to continue what it does without US sanctions because China will get to where it wants to go despite the sanctions. It's said in soft rhetoric but it's there nonetheless. Nothing specific about China's economy. I must be used to a different format.

[@erc9468]

He frankly sounds like a CCP apologist. He doesn’t seem to be willing to criticize Xi other than on the most superficial level.

[@kreek22]

@@erc9468 It helps balance the Democrat apologist interviewing him.

[@matthewmorgan9269]

He's a weasel in rats clothing

[@Withnail1969]

The US can't do much to China because the US lacks the industrial capacity to produce what it imports from China.

[@CentauriSphere]

Trump lost

[@janesmith506]

Listeners to Dan Wang should be skeptical about his comments. He says that China did a great job of dealing with the pandemic. Is it great to refuse to use the most effective vaccines, is it great to shut down cities so that people starve to death in their homes, is it great to block investigate the origins of the virus? Wang's words make me think that he is carefully choosing his words so that he does not jeopardize his ability to go to China and/or have access to Chinese interests. He so carefully makes excuses for China.

[@georgewaters6424]

readers of your comments should be skeptical about your abilities to assimilate knowledge and form well rounded balanced opinions. Perhaps your former guy can make a come back in '24 on the hand maybe not!

[@NoGoodHandlesComingToMind]

Wang made an astonishing amount of comments which wouldn't survive any reasonable degree of follow-up probing. His whole rhetorical doctrine is identical to Donald Trump's; to speak so quickly between each nonsensical comment that the listener can't keep track of them, and can't spend an adequate period of time in correcting each one. It's such an aggressive and rapid tsunami of frothy nonsense that the only way to win is not to play -- and thus Ezra failed by inviting him on the podcast in the first place.

[@chensweeyew454]

starve to death?

[@georgewaters6424]

@@NoGoodHandlesComingToMind Sure Cletus, good luck getting that job that involves listening and learning!

[@NoGoodHandlesComingToMind]

@@georgewaters6424 It’s impressive and totally comical how quickly you jumped to such a nonsense response, pulling literally nothing from the context of the thread, it’s like you’re a CCP bot or something.

[@bobconley2355]

I don't understand why the issue of intellectual property never came up. The US and China have very different expectations when it comes to the protection of intellectual property. Restricting shipments of technological goods is a way to inhibit what the US considers the theft of intellectual property. Meanwhile, reverse engineering is a way of life in the Chinese technological community. Even when dealing with their closest partners, China has consistently opted to first license and then outright copy Russian military aircraft, for example. Unless we reach a meeting of the minds on this issue, trade of technological goods will forever be tightly constrained. Regarding this as some kind of an insult to China requires a rather skewed mindset. China may indeed feel that way, but it is a very flawed way of understanding the overall issue. Also, Ezra made the appropriate point about the risks associated with the Taiwanese monopoly on the most technologically advanced semicimonductors. Even a failed attack upon Taiwan might wreck the high value semiconductor supply chain by damaging the existing facilities. Diversifying the manufacturing base is a legitimate reason for governmental action. It seemed that Mr. Wong was only interested in the Chinese point of view of this issue. Perhaps Mr. Wong might benefit from some time spent working to understand the actual motives of the US in these trade disputes, rather than only seeing them through the lens of the complaints of the Chinese government.

[@davidlai399]

All the companies and their shareholders who shared their technologies with China have gotten fabulously rich over the past few decades. No one put a gun to their heads to move production to China. Now China is becoming a leader of intellectual property in its own right.

[@TsunamiKitten]

Right? Literally one of the biggest issues with doing biz in China. They dodge that entire thing. Crazy.

[@WorldIsWierd]

@@davidlai399 well it make no sense for the US to allow companies to get rich screwing over the US citizens

[@jimgraham6722]

I have seen interviews with TSMC execs where they have made it clear should China try to take Taiwan by force, there will be nothing left of the fab plants that China actually relies on heavily for the chips in its manufactured goods.

[@iamyoda66]

It is why the CHIPS act is so critical for the US. $50B allocated for creating semiconductors is more than the cost of the 3 gorges dam ($30B). Also, while TSMC is the biggest manufacturer of chips, the biggest design companies are Intel, ARM and Nvidia - all EU and US based. Also, all the advanced chip manufacturing machines are built by the Dutch ASML. China would not survive a technology embargo from the West. People like Dan Wang, while articulate are delusional.

[@iamyoda66]

China is like Japan will be limited because they eventually become insular and not open. Dan Wang is a perfect example of that. In the West, we are usually critical of all our achievements so the goal is always to improve. In China (and it was in Japan and is becoming in India) there is a tendency to always turn any criticism into achievements. What Dan is missing is that positive impact of US VC and start-up environment along with immigration of highly skilled people. Lastly, in the last 30-40 years what exactly has China created that the rest of the world cares about, being a fast follower only gets you so far. Dan Wang is a perfect reflection of why China will not overtake the West with the current approach.

[@bordedup546]

Yes he talked a lot about how the CCP can use its central control over the economy to bypass obsticales, like investor returns, to gain an edge in solar energy without much discussion about the benefits of a strong investor class and the self-destructive tendencies a state can unleash when it chooses to disempower investors inorder to reach an objective

[@davidlai399]

@@bordedup546 How ironic it is precisely the strong US investor class who offshored US manufacturing to China

[@bordedup546]

@@davidlai399 Well of course, if you let investors allocate capital freely they will offshore for the sake of profits. However, they can also allocate capital to form new industries that don't exist in countries without a strong investor class and which sacrifice economic freedom for cental control. This is the point that Jaffery is making. He sees the Chinese system as good at copying but not as good at creating things which don't exist yet as less centrally controlled and more investor friendly economics such as the US

[@aoeu256]

Well Chinese express criticism in subtle ways, but they do not like the assertive way that Westerners express their opinions.

[@bordedup546]

@@aoeu256 No one cares

[@thryce82]

Personally don't think govt incompetence counts as resiliency. Ccp has held their people back at least 20 years. Look at Taiwan see the difference in quality of life. Not to even mention all of the expat Chinese who in general do great. Mucking that that up as a "focus on resiliency" is fairly disingenuous. Also not trying to maximize the return on a society's capital by wasting it on worthless projects when most people are extremely poor is not sth to be seen as a virtue. It means people in villages are likely to not have electricity.....

[@Pdotta1]

First time listening to Dan speak. He’s measured and knowledgeable on China. He does understate in all directions - so add 5-10% “intensity” to all his statements here. He’s also very skilled at pausing to let Ezra speak while he collects his thoughts - look for this to spot the difficult questions - and Ezra’s surface level knowledge on China made it easy for Dan to shape the conversation in any direction he preferred. Enjoyable to listen to! 😊

[@iamyoda66]

Agreed. When you can position any and all decisions as a positive for China. It is good propaganda, but won’t help China.

[@jamesmoy1214]

Whispering has such a calming effect to disguise the lying and propaganda 😂

[@markquigley9730]

The elephant in the room issue neither really addressed is Marxist/Leninist ideology - something Chi is wedded to. My understanding is that a short period of capitalism is allowable for a Communist ruled country in order to get it on its feet. However the ideology also states that the means of production determines the type of government - and it is therefore essential to bring that period to an end before the government ceases to be Communist. Hence Chi has to throttle capitalism as soon as possible or he is not a good Communist. Likewise the ideology states that a Communist regime will inevitably be opposed in the long term by any outside "imperialist" regimes - even though for pragmatic reasons there may be cooperation in the short term. I have no doubt that this kind of thing is in his mind as he builds up his military forces, asserts his dominance over international waters, sends off spy balloons etc. etc. I'm glad the US seems to be waking up to these sad realities.

[@WingkKong]

China is rising not because of communism but china return to its root Confucianism

[@adamvifrye2690]

Idk if brutal zero covid lockdowns and not having food would make 2020 and 2021 "fun times." This guy is a writer, he can work from home, local chinese factory workers cannot

[@austriasalzburg]

I thought the same. Sounded quite divorced from reality. And that the Chinise state overreach was , I quote "a little too much" If you call that "a little too much" what would be unacceptable?

[@W_Bin]

24:21 "difficult for Chinese companies to sell solar to the US without a lot of documentation trying to prove that they don't have forced labor" How hard is it to show you don't use forced labour?

[@DeathEater93]

Well, when you use forced labor, it's quite hard to prove the opposite...

[@W_Bin]

@@DeathEater93 exactly.

[@MrRobertLake]

@@DeathEater93t is quite hard to prove if one is convinced that the other part is doing something or allegedly doing something. The truth is irrelevant. It is all politics.

[@briancase6180]

What's missing from this discussion is a good covering of the fragility of the CCP and just how close it is to failing. I think that is relevant. To be fair, the discussion could cover the probability of our democracy failing, but I think the failure of the CCP is much, much more likely. With Foxconn leaving China, at least in part, isn't it with discussing how in the world the CCP is going to deal with potential rather high unemployment? Not that we didn't go through--and are still going through--something like this when we stupidly sent the US manufacturing economy to China a couple of decades ago....

[@kelvinzhang2108]

you ain't the first to come up with that lunatic wet dream, CCP is standing strong.

[@kreek22]

I see few signs of fragility. The only problem is a slowing economy. That usually does not cause revolution. Also, the CCP was smart enough (unlike the Russians and others) to establish early control over the internet, which would otherwise be teeming with American propaganda and America's debased culture.

[@winsonhan2187]

Better for you to follow Gordon Chang.

[@kreek22]

@@winsonhan2187 Gordon "China's doomed" Chang, who's been predicting imminent doom for, what, 20 years now? Wishful thinking, financed by the American deep state.

[@Withnail1969]

Foxconn assembles iphones. It's not really important. Industries like steel, cement, aluminium, rare earth metals and fertiliser are important.

[@cms9902]

Mass deaths in the West during the pandemic. UK had a .4 rate, like most countries.

[@ElGrandoCaymano]

I think Ezra's guest is a total Chinese shill. He complains that the US government is "shameful" for not "welcoming more Chinese students, entrepreneurs and workers and instead should work on making [the US] a more attractive society...instead the rhetoric is not always friendly against people of Chinese decent". Also at 1:15:40, he whines about scientists and technicians of Chinese origin being prosecuted or deported due to "really pretty small matters of various research malfeasance". Seriously pal? Why isn't China making itself more attractive to foreigners rather than picking fights with every neighbour and western country (USA, Australia, NZ, Canada, even Lithuania).

[@kreek22]

Other than what you mention, I didn't hear much shilling.

[@RobertoTorres-gi8vh]

Totally agree, but one needs to remember that Xi is pushing to take over the world and make sure that USA is included. That’s his life time goal ! Also he has brain washed the Chinese masses for nationalism and has his own doctrine of a “ red book “ , entitled “ the thoughts of Xi Jinping “. It is also an app on iPhones that may be required for all Chinese citizens to have . Xi is a “ mini Mao “

[@Clear24chris]

He is a shill. This whole interview is embarrassing.

[@kreek22]

@@Clear24chris Far more embarrassing is the enthusiastic surrender of the Western ruling class to the CCP.

[@MrRobertLake]

It seems the confrontation and contain strategy has its own peril. 😊

[@markxxxdavis]

I hate to say this but the guest Chinese source does not have a global, statistical overview of his home country. For example, the cost of cheap labor no longer exist.It is much cheaper to go to other Asian countries. The Chinese population is in collapse because of urbanization. Chinese families around 1.3.

[@kreek22]

How long until the Chinese workforce drops by 50%? Is that a collapse?

[@raymondrust9084]

Dan sounds like a stooge for CCP

[@Qwuiet]

I am sick of these books of big ideas. We think too much and do too little.

[@GeoScorpion]

Hmm. In the opening words by Dan Wong, I was instantly reminded of the viral and censored video, "Voice of April" (四月之声The Voice of April Eng translation | China 2022 Shanghai Lockdown Record) and wonder if Wong was so cloistered somehow in Shanghai that he could not hear the same sounds around him. The fact is that China was changing years before Dan Wong even arrived in China, especially with the infighting between Xi, Hu, and Jiang Zemin's Shanghai Clique (hence the Shanghai lockdown). Covid-19 was merely the culmination of underlying problems and the exposure of the massive Ponzi scheme that the CCP has been perpetuating against the world almost since Deng Xiaoping. The alchemy of "The Glass Heart" (bōli xīn 玻璃), The Wolf Warrior Diplomacy of Zhao Lijian, the disruption of supply chains, increased aggression over Taiwan, 9-dash line, etc. etc. etc. etc. forced "The West" and South East Asia to finally admit that they had let the CCP's bad, illegal and warlike behavior go unchecked for two long. Despite a loss in our own profits, "The China Problem" could no longer be hidden behind the argument that our profits were really so important. The list of grievances against the CCP government is long. VERY long: • Economic Grievances ◦ Intellectual Property Theft ◦ Forced Technology Transfers ◦ Manipulation of Currency Exchange Rates ◦ Making it difficult to transfer profits out of China ◦ Subsidizing Domestic Industries ◦ Monopolization of US farmland for Chinese export, only ◦ The cost of constant cyber attacks and protection of IP ◦ Producing goods that are intentionally designed to fail to force consumers to repurchase. (e.g. Shoes, shirts and pants that wear out after only a few months) ◦ Falsely certifying shoddy products ◦ NO LEGAL MECHANISM for redress: Caveat Emptor! ◦ No legal redress for foreign people or businesses against Chinese-owned or protected individuals or businesses ◦ Bribery • International Political Grievances ◦ Persecution of religious and ethnic minorities ◦ National Security Law ◦ Unlawful Territorial Claims (Land and Sea) ◦ Creation and Militarization of Artificial Islands in foreign territorial waters ◦ Transnational Repression and suppression of speech in foreign countries ◦ Illegal Police Stations on Foreign Soil ◦ Armed and Armored Chinese Fishing Boats invade foreign water ◦ Bribery and election interference (e.g. Solomon Islands, African nations) ◦ Elite Capture of leaders in developed countries ◦ Human Trafficking and slavery (e.g. North Korean refugees) ◦ Aggressive Violations of air and sea space • Public Health Grievances ◦ Covid-19 Disinformation ◦ Other Virus disinformation ◦ Co-opting WHO ◦ Defective Medical Supplies ◦ Dangerous Counterfeits of Baby Formula ◦ Misbranded and defective personal protective equipment ◦ Gutter Oil ◦ Unsafe drinking water ◦ Falling space debris ◦ Fake fire hydrants, fake safety permits (elevators) ◦ Tofu Dreg construction • Military Grievances ◦ Aggressive, unprofessional, dangerous and illegal AF and Navy maneuvers ◦ Operation Fishkill ◦ Using military and militarized fishing boats to block access to territorial fishing zones ◦ Hiding the true purpose of overseas military bases (starting with Djibouti in 2017) ◦ Breaking the 2015 promise not to arm the Spratly Islands ◦ Military Cyber attacks ◦ Increase in Strategic nuclear stockpile ◦ Test destruction of satellite with a missile causing a debris field ◦ Spy Balloon ◦ Cox Report on nuclear espionage ◦ Purchase of land near US military bases ◦ Shining military lasers at Australian aircraft (and other vessels of other nations) ◦ Threats of invasion of Taiwan • Unrestricted, and Gray Zone Warfare ◦ • Soft Power abuses ◦ WuMao, Tankies, Little Pinks to manipulate social media ◦ Confucius Institutes on college campuses ◦ Harassment of ethnic Chinese on foreign soil at public events, protests, etc. ◦ Assault and Battery of protesters on foreign soil ◦ Co-opting the production and editing of mainstream movies to fit CCP views ◦ Co-opting the NBA and other sports franchises to fit CCP views ◦ Harassment and Threats against teachers and professors in foreign countries ◦ Harassment of corporate advertisers whose ads appear on anti-CCP programs/sites ◦ Promotion of Fictitious versions of history and news ◦ Creation of fake accounts on social media and use of bots against community guidelines • Environmental Grievances ◦ Pollution of all potable water in China ◦ Damming of Rivers ◦ Over-farming and over-fertilization of arable soil ◦ CO2 and other toxic emissions for urban and industrial processes ◦ CO2 from crop burning ◦ Illegal dumping of consumer and industrial waste ◦ Sewage and Storm Drain/runoff contamination ◦ Pollution of oceans through runoff, sewage and illegal dumping ◦ Over-fishing of all oceans even in the territories of other countries ◦ Illegal fishing of endangered species (e.g. Shark Fins) ◦ Hunting of endangered species (poaching) in foreign countries ◦ Painting entire mountains green to make them ‘look’ alive and other fake environmental programs ◦ The construction of hundreds of new Coal-powered power plants

[@haldorasgirson9463]

Dan Wang just lost all credibility with me, when he called the Spy Balloon a "Hobbyist" effort. Goodbye and don't let the door hit you in the rear on your way back to China.

[@lealudwig714]

I believe Mr. Wang will not live in China as a chinese citizen, he prefers to be there, but has right e to be back in USA anytime when he wants....

[@accountantthe3394]

You're suggesting US DoD is wrong for concluding no intel was collected from the balloon then?

[@john_smith_john]

@@accountantthe3394 No intel was collected because they had US spy planes jamming the signals the entire time it was over their airspace.

[@davidlai399]

Everyone still waiting to find out exactly what scandalous technology was in that balloon

[@haldorasgirson9463]

@@accountantthe3394 We got more intel from studying the balloon than they got from spying on our missile silo's. But that has nothing to do with my comment. This was not a "hobbyist" effort, the balloon payload was the size of a passenger jet and this was built and deployed by the PLA. www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3297104/chinese-surveillance-balloons-global-in-scope-says-official/

[@kevinwilliams3694]

When you remember anyone living in China must fall in line will CCP acceptable talking points this gets creepy. The distraction techniques where really smoothly applied when he faced a question he didn't like. Credit thou for being a skilled interviewee.

[@davidlai399]

Most people living in China are too busy try to get rich to worry about CCP talking points. It is also a false perception that CCP does not respond to the will of its people. The immediate and full lifting of Covid measure last year after widespread protests is an obvious example.

[@doughvahkiin2885]

I definitely don't agree with some of the guest's takes, but I appreciate hearing a different perspective

[@tijldeclerck7772]

These kind of conversations are useless, because it's obvious he can't say what he's really thinking, because that could get him banned from China. We've all seen how sensitive the CCP is when that Singaporian comic was banned after some innocent surveillance and social credit score jokes

[@raymondrust9084]

What a apologist for the CCP

[@JAMAICADOCK]

The US's main problem with Beijing primarily comes down to its growing political and economic clout throughout Eurasia. China has spread its wings for the most part peacefully in the name of trade, but as history demonstrates trading posts can soon turn into colonies. China now has a vast sphere of interest throughout Asia and Africa, while beginning to make inroads into Eastern Europe, which may mean it does what the US has always struggled to do, that is economically control the world Island. As the MacKinder doctrine has it - 'whoever controls Erasure controls the world'. Given Eurasia is home to most of the world's people and resources. The way the US sees it China's power at this juncture still lies in its checkbook, in its soft power. In the way it can go to countries that the US treated meanly via IMF loan conditions and offer better deals on Aid, infrastructure, humanitarian causes. If America in the post-cold war period was typified by use of the stick, China came with the carrot. The US looking to bring back production stateside is really a means of biting into China's foreign development budgets, while it hands trillions of dollars to China in trade, China uses those dollars to finance it's soft power. China has had an easy ride of it for the last 40 years, first as it moved from communism it became the poster boy for the triumph of free markets, then as China began spreading its global influence - it became the poster boy of globalization. China investing in places like Ethiopia, Iraq, Sri Lanka was seen as a great boon to globalization - with Beijing willing to invest where the West feared to tread. A win/win Adam Smith Utopia. China got raw materials to run its vast industries, poor countries got much needed development, while the US and its allies bought cheap products from China. But the game-changers were the military bases China began building, as it appeared that China wasn't just interested in trade after all. Moreover, China began busting sanctions by beginning to trade with the West's enemies - Zimbabwe, Iran, Venezuela, Burma, Cuba, Serbia, N Korea etc etc China no longer to be the quiet unassuming champion of friendly trade with poor and abandoned countries the West had neglected - but starting to trade with the US's sworn enemies, giving the US 'bad actors' economic lifelines. And then to top it all, to remain on good terms with Putin, refusing to place sanctions on Russia even following the second invasion of Ukraine. In fact increasing trade with Russia, buying Russia's oil. Your enemy's enemy may be a friend, but the friend of your enemies, soon becomes an enemy too. But the US is too reliant on China to freeze it out like Russia, so the long process of re-shoring will now begin. The question is however, if the US was to whip up proxy wars in some of China's foreign assets, will the Chinese commit forces and become a de facto military power? We may soon find out, because one thing's for sure - great powers can't survive on soft power alone. China will have to defend its allies sooner or later. That's the point when we see whether the Chinese dragon bites, or whether China is just a paper tiger.

[@furmanodell]

China is a paper tiger. They have no allies. They are done. More done than Japan was in the 1990's because at least Japan got rich before they got old. China? Not so much.

[@CentauriSphere]

what chinese allies

[@JAMAICADOCK]

@@CentauriSphere China has very close ties with Iran. If America was to go to war with Iran, this might bring China and America to a nuclear stand off, or see China support the current regime, while America would support the Kurds, Arabs, Azers and other opposition groups in a proxy war.

[@michaelboano7183]

@@JAMAICADOCKbecause china imports via ocean most of its oil and is unable to match usa naval power I doubt that China could help Iran much. USA could easily cut off China from middle east oil. Moreover, China exports to USA r essential to their economy a lot more than the usa need for their imports. Hence, China isn’t going to war with USA over Iran if their decision makers understand and respects even basic economic principles

[@JAMAICADOCK]

@@michaelboano7183 The gamechanger is Russia, with more Russian oil and gas flowing into China, it means China isn't so reliant on the middle east. And if bad economic forecasts stopped countries going to war, there'd be no wars. Sooner or later you stand by your allies, or you might as well get off the world stage, because no country is going to put their faith in you ever again. Being a great power comes with risks. Sooner or later you gotta take a gamble.

[@Waverlyduli]

Ezra Klein's speaker may underestimate the depth of antipathy in the West and Asia toward the extremist behaviour of the autocracy under which ordinary Chinese suffer in China. The US and the Democratic world is right to believe China would be better off without not only Xi but especially the whole CCP political apparatus that stifles the civilising development of a Chinese Democracy.

[@WingkKong]

The world also believe that Without the American Imperial Empire The whole world will be at peace

[@shishkabobby]

At 14 min, you were commenting that Amicans were going into 'plastics' rather than advanced materials. May I remind that you that The Graduate was released in Dec 1967. Plastics were the advanced materials of the day. Even today, advanced materials like carbon fiber are widely used to reinforce epoxy resins, a type of plastic. I took the Chinese point about keeping PhD physics in science as an attempt to keep their valuable training to be relevant to the work at hand. In some cases, the mathematical models of theoretical physics are immediately useful in finance (e.g. "Econophysics') while experimentalists may be more useful in applied work like materials science.

[@donmc1950]

One could ask the same question of the US. How did the US become a faltering Giant? In Paul Kennedy's 1989 book : The rise and fall of the Great powers - economic change and military conflict 1500 - 2000.Great powers like China and the US expand thru economic , resource nd techical advantages then contract due to the increasing costs of defense and adminstration.

[@joanofarc6402]

Excellent conversation!! Thank you !

[@michae1601]

This is soft papaganda We Americans do a lot of self examination while china prevents any independent thinking. Dan wang’s comment are well crafted. Deeper analysis there is no depth to it. No deep criticism of the structural differences

[@kreek22]

Wong's latest article says China's economic growth "now resembles an aging star, whose act keeps being stolen by the ghastly presence of the communist state." America's self examination doesn't prevent it from doing things like inflicting insane "gender" propaganda on its children and encouraging them to believe insane ideas like the possibility of sex change, which causes thousands of them to be surgically disfigured. Yeah, nice country you've got there, American sheep! And America's prestige press is now relentlessly attacking a film that exposes child sex trafficking--including hiring a pedophile apologist (Berlatsky) to write a hitpiece in Bloomberg. If only China could benefit from such fruitful and salutary self examination. And whatever happened to the Jeffrey Epstein investigation? Perhaps you forgot about it because your "self examination" media decided to bury it, and most people only think about what the media tells them to think about. Oh well, just another Jewish pedophile and member of the deep state. Why are there so many Jewish in the Biden cabinet anyway? Jews are 2% of the population. Why are they 40% of the cabinet? Where are the self examining articles about this strange phenomenon? Crickets, as they say. Or, as they also say, that's a conspiracy theory. Or, as they love to say, that's racist and "anti-Semitic" (which is a nonsense word).

[@TsunamiKitten]

Great show guys thanks!

[@jacquietarr7280]

Brilliant ! Thank you

[@lairdmichaelscott]

People are marveling at the turnaround. That's because most people are incapable or uninterested in doing a minimal level of research on certain subjects that, although they may find them of interest, they want someone to feed them on a plate, and not all "experts" are created equal. In 2008 I became concerned when I heard people talking about the so-called next superpower, given the things the government operated. No awe, no envy, no fear, just concern. Ultimately, the children will suffer most at the hands of the power-mad leadership and that, no kidding, puts me somewhere beyond sad. It was clear that the end would be not long in coming. COVID accelerated things, various natural disasters have not helped, and of course, the greatest disaster was the rise of a single murderous old thug intent on micromanaging a country of over 1 billion souls. The amazing thing is not that this happened so quickly, it's that it took so many people so long to see it (and for it to get bad enough that they could).

[@josephdibello846]

Regarding mask production and the desire to “make a buck”: it rules the day here just as much as in China. The desire to make a buck was the reason why American hospital executives and others outsourced mask production to China. France did the same thing. It gets worse: the stress test done by the federal government in the last years of the Obama administration regarding readiness in the face of a SARS-like epidemic seems to have overlooked the inadequacy of our domestic mask production. The Trump administration did some direct assaults on the protocols, and/or agencies relating to readiness before the onslaught of the pandemic.

[@docjaramillo]

The youth unemployment rate is terrible too.

[@nicholassmith3719]

Good discussion!

[@brotherted9212]

Boy this didn’t age well. China manufacturing is collapsing.

[@DDCrp]

Ty- really appreciate the insight

[@Sugarnaut]

An Autocratic country would never implement anything like NAFTA. Thank you Willie Clinton. Got rid of Glass-Steagall too.

[@jeromebarry1741]

Fun to have the entry/exit doors to your apartment building welded shut?

[@kreek22]

What was the comparative mortality rate again?

[@tuttirulla]

@@kreek22 We don't know because the Chinese don't tell the truth.

[@obrotherwhereartliam]

This guy just glosses right over the Xinjiang case, to say nothing of Tibet...

[@Bernard-fo2qo]

Never underestimate the power of profit and capitalism to proceed with blind single mindedness. - Confusus and Sum Poo

[@MH-pz8wf]

1:11:00 That's exactly why de-risking, de-coupling and diversifying manufacturing and technology is important with a unpredictable and a lot of time hostile regime.

[@accountantthe3394]

Agreed, China can't sell USD bonds fast enough, Never know when US would elect another nutter and thrust the world into yet another one of its wars.

[@Eristtx]

25:00 - Well, after about 10 minutes, my "Lobbyist" warning light started flashing. The whole passage about the great success of solar panels, with the Chinese government proving that it cares more about consumers and the development of the industry and doesn't give a damn about "capitalists", was incredibly stupid. I was particularly pleased with his pride in the Chinese government's desire to help consumers, but he has forgotten the other reasons for China's competitive advantage: 1. Chinese panel production generates huge negative externalities. China has no need to deal with something like environmental regulation. The IPCC database states that photovoltaics generate on average 20 to 40 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour (the budgeted CO2 required for production). Well, according to research, the Chinese reality is 170 to 250 grams of CO2. A Chinese solar panel comes out WORSE in terms of pollution than burning natural gas. 2. So China is not saving the planet with its photovoltaics. And although it is raising a lot of money for its budget, it is not using that money to improve the lives of the Chinese "consumer" or "worker". Instead, it spends the money on those vaunted low-return investments. Which... is this gentleman really an economist? 3. Investing in something with a low return is not altruism. "Return" generally symbolizes the benefit that the investment brings to people and society. Investing in high-speed rail when the average Chinese worker can't afford it and would rather appreciate regular, significantly cheaper rail is little better than corruption. There are exceptions to the rule - but I don't think they apply to China with its weakness for monstrous structures. 4. Rather, how does one recognize bad government investment at the macro level? Well, for example, by the fact that your debt is growing faster than GDP. --- The problem with China is that its economic miracle is based on cheap labor and massive infrastructure construction. It's just that this model has limits, where you have to change your growth model. China hasn't done that because it would mean redistribution of wealth and power. Well, when you're in a dictatorship, wealth and power go to those who rule. And they don't want to share. The result? The model hasn't changed, so China has ended up with an overheated and relatively indebted economy that is based on construction. That's a really stupid situation in a country where everything is built. And your population has the lowest birth rate in the world.

[@user-te4of2fq5d]

Welding people in their homes for virus remediation isn't a good indicator for me. Was that fun too ?

[@SN-le9vz]

That’s a good one!

[@j.k.d.126]

China Washing Guest.

[@debrasmith4675]

That ‘state pathology’ sounds like the method whereby organic life grows.

[@Edo9River]

If I try to look without prejudice either in favor of China or against China, I see an eventual equality and cooperation between the EU,, The US and China, abd-Japan- Korea to develop Africa and other places. As long as Super-Nationalism is so virulent I don't see this cooperation flowering in my lifetime. However it may be that the Climate Crisis forcss a suppression of rabid Capitalism and builds up a survivalist way of viewing the planet more wholistically and organically. This is my thinking that the spending on and management of CO2 Mitigation doesn't offer any profit margins to attract capitalists, but for the average Joe, and the government bureaucrats it could be an outline for hope. and not nationalistic hype. This organic global development is not a complete fantasy in the general vision of the future.. A severe uptick in the CO2 repercussions could result in a silver lining for those of our great grandchildren who survive.

[@janetmalcolm3403]

Today's opinions are only as good as yesterday's newspaper. Don't speak too soon. The table gets turned all the time. Keep yourselves posted. This is four months old.

[@robertvanslooten9475]

What about the screaming crashing giant America?

[@raevj]

If Biden was removed & all his red tape policies & deference to US energy production, US would get MUCH BETTER. Biden’s excessive regulation & nosy Administration is HORRIBLE for the US…..

[@Kenneth_James]

Could this guy sugarcoat his words anymore than he is? I think not. You must be seriously worried he's going to get arrested for saying anything bad because he is just bullshiting as way around everything

[@chrischicago6928]

Another way to view this is he honestly believed this, partly as an ethnic Chinese/ perhaps ABC identity, ie the pride thing, and partly as a stakeholder in the success of the regime and society, even though simultaneously carrying a US passport. The gov propaganda day in and day out during the pandemic helps too. Without understanding or taking into consideration, the full depth and breadth of the brutalities and evil of the regime, including the fact that all gov stats are fictitious and all news in a completely controlled media are colored with hidden gov agenda, he (and people like him) can only observe China with tinted lenses. Re specific sectors, his observations can be astute and on point, including the diversification that’s being undertaken by foreign biz. Re the big picture that provides the key context, his completely misses the point. Long story short, there is zero doubt that both the economy and trust have completely cratered. Liquidity trap and the attendant deflation are rapidly taking hold. Given the current geopolitical realities, there is no choice but to embrace the looming Lost Three Decades of China. Sad but true.

[@alaskavaper2490]

I found the discussion excellent in it's broad strokes and insights

[@bobmorane4926]

I think he's actually making it sound worse than it is to cater shamelessly to the western audience that's more eager to hear the negative side than the success side of China.

[@winstonyu1776]

Exactly, CIA will finish the job if FBI doesn't arrest him

[@kreek22]

In his latest article he said China's economic growth "now resembles an aging star, whose act keeps being stolen by the ghastly presence of the communist state." Where's the sugarcoating I was promised?

[@allenaxp6259]

The United States has been providing military aid to Taiwan, and it has pledged to defend the island if it is attacked by China. The United States has also been working to reduce its reliance on Taiwan for semiconductors. The United States is investing in domestic semiconductor manufacturing, and it is also working to build relationships with other countries that produce semiconductors, such as South Korea and Japan.

[@nylai36]

Wy⁰aÿyÿ⁵⁴⁶þe

[@michaelwithy8241]

Pretty misleading title here, ended up being a somewhat biased Chinese interpretation while glossing over huge (negative) facts.

[@squamish4244]

There is a pattern here of aggressive countries that we thought were enormously strong have turned out not to be so. Russia has turned out to have a pathetic military, a faltering domestic economy, and a shrinking population base. Now China, which is no doubt much stronger than Russia, turns out to have massive endemic economic, social and resources problems. Even IF it buys all of Siberia, which will help with a lot of its need for resources, it can't get water from it, there is a major shortage of drinking water in the heavily populated northeast, nor can it get food, as not much of Siberia is farmed, and China is the #2 food producer in the world...but it eats all that food, and it is facing a food shortage in the future. Food and water. So obvious you can't even see it.

[@oldasrocks9121]

Why say forced-labor when you can say slavery?

[@W_Bin]

21:37 Capitalism working the way it was actually designed to? What a pity neither administration has it. Thought=provoking interview. "a success with Chinese characteristics in which investors and corporates don't make that much money but the government and the consumers can be pretty happy". 21:49 Rather than US, grabbing more money and power for the super rich? "and to flip that analysis it is certainly now being treated as an American policy failure that if you look at the inflation reduction act I talked to the Biden Administration about this exact question a number of times now they are on the one hand all of their climate goals require an incredibly rapid buildup in solar energy and solar deployment and on the other hand they don't want our entire energy infrastructure to be dependent on Chinese Manufacturing."

[@rogerc6533]

Its insane the lack of self awareness these liberal think tanks that call themselves experts of the western world have.

[@rebeccashelton3552]

Dan Wang has a quite irritating way of presenting his points. His whole point is that everybody should get along, regardless fairness. He has not criticized on any unfair practices from Chinese government. That made this whole presentation irritating!

[@justinbeghly1435]

I think it’s funny how all these comments are from people that have never been to China, but feel they know more about China than the guest who lives there. It’s easy to see the world as you want it to be rather than how it is I guess.

[@matthewmorgan9269]

I've been to China more than 20 times over the course of my life. One thing I've learnt is the CCP are brutal and devious and they employ (or co-opt) weasels like Dan to push their rubbish into western media. It worked well for 20 years but now the veil has fallen off and everyone now knows their tricks. What is not entirely clear is whether Dan is lying more for them or for himself. In other words, how much leverage does the CCP have over him.

[@jimgraham6722]

Agree, I have visited China a good many times and have many relatives who live there. The reality of China is there is now a huge middle class, probably around 700million many of whom have extensive connections around the globe. The vast majority of these people are hard working, highly entrepreneurial, enjoy and love life. While in the last few decades economic growth has been driven by exports, increasingly domestic demand is taking over. There is considerable potential for domestic growth as there are about 500 million people still to be brought into the middle class, with all the gains in economic activity and productivity that implies.

[@matthewmorgan9269]

@@jimgraham6722 Wishful thinking. Chinese people are saving their money because they know things are going to get worse. Others are simply saving money to get out of China.

[@davidlai399]

@@matthewmorgan9269 just curious, when was your last visit to China and which cities?

[@matthewmorgan9269]

@@davidlai399 Just curious, are you a member of the largest criminal, repressive, yet dysfunctional organization the world has ever seen...

[@nlsantiesteban]

18:00 Bah-hem-eth?

[@user-ux4wk3ir8v]

Ezra, you are a good guy but you were played like a violin by a world class violinist.

[@haldorasgirson9463]

I wonder what percentage of China's high tech manufacturing is based on internal development vs technology transfer from western companies? I worked for a large multinational company who has a long experience in China (our CEO went to China with Nixon). I left them in the early 10's and a major focus for the last 5 years I was there was focused on preventing IP leak.

[@kreek22]

Mostly stolen from and donated by the West, thanks to the West's treasonous ruling class, the globalist scum. The question is whether they can innovate when they are forced to innovate, as in the chips industry now.

[@Der8cho]

My guest today is a China fan boy...

[@unreliablenarrator6649]

Mr Wong, with the end of the COVID lock downs China reactivated all long-term visa for foreign nationals and relaxed the restrictions for Chinese nationals. So you ""concern" is noted, but you jumped to the wrong conclusion. Today, the biggest problems is the availability of flights to/from China. So calm-down now.

[@edgeman148]

I am no fan of China, yet I am reminded of the phrase "the kettle calling the pan black". Most economies, globally are in complete tatters.

[@JJJRRRJJJ]

“Most economies, globally are in complete tatters.” This is quite a strange conclusion to draw during an era wherein global human flourishing has reached levels _far_ beyond any point in history, exceeding even the most optimistic projections of researchers of past decades and millennia. Expand your time horizon even just a tiny bit and see how foolish statements like these really are.

[@rogerc6533]

@@JJJRRRJJJ You kidding me? It looks like the western world is on the verge of societal collapse because wealth inequalities will always remain a consistent in human civilization no matter how much technology has advanced. Are you able to buy a home at the moment? Or if you're older, are your children able to at all? And thats assuming you even have kids in this shit economy thats leading most developed nations towards population death. The worst part is the Americans who are supposed to be leading the western economy are still fighting over inane bullshit like gender ideology that has no relation at all to actually improving material conditions!

[@bathygao]

Change the title to USA and read again.😂😂😂

[@jpnphom5470]

Watching the face….ok…im out😂

[@anwiycti1585]

Anyone saying 2020 and 2021 were good years must have his head still buried under a pile of something, or as they put it in Chinese, plugging ones 41:57 ears to steal a bell.

[@1099670]

Another CCP apologist? Could not make it past minute 15. NYT what can one expect.

[@ElGrandoCaymano]

Agreed, this was a weak and tainted guest

[@jackyee1291]

China and most Asian nations have homogeneous populations, strong families, and a common culture that has lasted thousands of years. This economic collapse talk is only quarterly short term thinking and will have no effect on most Asian nations at all. The US, OTOH has no common culture, and has a very rage filled, self destructive lifestyle, that is primarily predicated on the desire to make money. All of which is not sustainable in the long run. It is Russia and China that will bide their time and wait for the US to split up into smaller independent Republics, similar in size to South American countries like Ecuador and Columbia.

[@Aye84848]

Ezra clean show

[@dennisspackman7147]

For big companies China use to represent a location for the cheap and reliable production of goods. Neither of these is true any longer. The new security laws are so vague that officials can arrest and jail you for anything at any time. China has shown that it is quite willing to arrest, jail and sentence to death citizens from other countries to try to apply pressure to those countries. Any company thinking rationally would do there best to leave when they can. So increasing risk , government interference and loss of supply chain control and reliability

[@rogipaul]

China apologists talking to each other!!!

[@pito6979]

I still bet the force can not be stopped.

[@beloho]

Excellent - thank you very much🙏

[@johnweiner]

@1:14 "Wouldn't that be great if we're all getting along, Ezra, but I'm afraid that's the logic of the 90's"...not the logic of that decade, just the sentiment of many...but apparently not the sentiment shared by the current President of China. "Allegedly spy balloon"..."incinerate"..."that just seems a little bit weird to me." Well, you know, shooting it down...an unmanned balloon seemed not very logical or reasonable to me either. But, you know, I'm wondering just "a little bit" if "a little bit" is a tic of speech of a real human or maybe "a little bit" not.

[@Fj8282haha]

Too early to judge and future impossible to forecast

[@imirim]

The title of the pod is misleading. Your guest was a CCP mouthpiece. He lost me when he insulted you by telling you to leave the thinking of the 1990s and join 2023. Totally uncalled for. He called authoritarianism "excess state capacity". His inability to speak freely for fear of CCP retribution spoke volumes. I learned nothing from him I hadn't heard before

[@iamyoda66]

The title of this podcast contradicts the content…

[@zeemazm]

I don't think they're slowing down. They currently in a sleeping giant mode. I live in China for 5 years, studied Finance and International Business. They're efficient. Most Infrastructure already there!

[@weewillywonga]

Efficient??? Are you insane? Sounds like you don't live in China. I have worked in China for almost a decade and the chabuduo attitude to every tiny thing, the pointless hierarchy, the forced face time in the office while people stare at their phones... China is grotesquely inefficient.

[@Allgood33]

Let's see what 2024 is like.

[@normastafford9716]

It moved their poor constituents from being poor to middle class category …

[@DavosJamos]

It aounds jarring when he says one thing abour rhe chinese is that they are very good at making money. If he said that about jewish people i feel it would be kind of racist 🤷‍♂️

[@TurfSurf]

One word, Xi.

[@a9udn9u-vanced]

The Chinese economy falters at 5% gdp growth?

[@ramastarchild6804]

Maybe...can we always trust CCP numbers?

[@erwinlee2842]

​@@ramastarchild6804how about world bank and imf number? Still not believe?

[@ramastarchild6804]

@@erwinlee2842 No. I'm half-Chinese and half English...I have read the CCP reports (at least some of the ones available to the west). The Chinese leadership admits that GDP numbers reported to THEM by the local CPs are inflated (it is in their interest to do so). These figures have been inflated since the 80s. The CCP GDP is very much over stated. Because of Commie China demographic problems, I don't see how China will be able to match the US GDP numbers. Maybe not ever. China will soon be a giant old folks home with a country attached! It is in the interest of the World Bank, China. and the US to keep up the fiction of Chinese power.

[@erwinlee2842]

@@ramastarchild6804 you are delusional. You did not read my question. WB and IMF number are inline with Chinese government report. WB and IMF are owned by USA. Keep dreaming and believe 25years Gordon Chang fake theory.

[@jimmylam9846]

@@ramastarchild6804 What make you think the US GDP isn't water down ? They kept moving the goal post so many times clandestinely making sure their GDP calculation unbeatable

[@johnweiner]

With all due respect, Dan Wang's "measured and knowledgeable" answers to Klein's questions reminds me of what "ChatGPT" or equivalent might regurgitate...sorry, sorry 'regurgitate' was an unfortunate choice of word. How to say...'that artificial intelligence might synthesize?' No offense intended, but are we listening to a real interview or or something generated by "generalized AI"? Maybe that is the way that Dan Wang really talks, but it gives me the queasy feeling of something else.

[@Drew070476]

Agreed. There is an inauthenticity to it. My thought is that Dan Wang’s career exists because of his access to China. If he his public critique of the celestial court is too combative, he risks being ejected from China, which, of course, will sink him professionally. Hence, the very “balanced” perspective on China that does come across as overly scripted and ultimately an exercise in meaningless word salad and docile hedging.

[@johnweiner]

@@Drew070476 I really like "meaningless word salad and docile hedging"...I've filed it away in my brain bank for later use.

[@kreek22]

@@johnweiner That quote describes Kamala's babblings far better.

[@stephenlock7236]

Faltering giant? Still a giant nonetheless.

[@shyamfootprints972]

Is this an audio podcast? If so you are in the wrong place guys. KZbin is for videos primarily….in case you didn’t notice the other videos here. There are other places for verbal diarrhoea out there on the internet

[@GUSCRAWF0RD]

He’s got great guests so I keep coming back but something about his personality and face makes Ezra Klein an even more punchable pundit than Shapiro

[@bordedup546]

His face and voice comes off like a VC that got lucky once and now thinks he knows how the entire world works. But in fairness, he's actually a good host in my opinion and he brings on good guests

[@mankitwong4165]

its such a good interview being put into the wrong channel and heard by the wrong audiences. people here care only about stance, not facts.

[@MH-pz8wf]

Yes, I think this should be more suitable to the audience in China and Russia and African friendly nations

[@mankitwong4165]

@MH-pz8wf here you go. it's about stance, not facts.

[@MH-pz8wf]

@@mankitwong4165 The remark reflected no stance or fact , just based on your conclusion only

[@mankitwong4165]

@@MH-pz8wf your explanation just serves as confirmation

[@justinbeghly1435]

Correct

[@W_Bin]

32:41 In New Zealand we willingly did the lockdowns and supported the government in doing so, and succeeded until re-infected by the countries that didn't. That is not "too much governmental power". The problem was the countries who didn't do that and maintained, mutated and spread the infection (prompted by to mass discord spread by vested interests). "Shanghai where for about two months 25 million people were not really able to step outside of their apartment doorways or at best travel outside their apartment compounds which is made up of kind of a garden that a lot of people are able to walk through"

[@amosbatto3051]

The end goal was never to keep out COVID entirely, but to keep infections to an acceptable level so the health system doesn't collapse and to give enough time for most people to get vaccinated or infected, so transmission rates stay at acceptable levels. Most nations realized that a zero COVID policy wasnt going to work, even for island nations like New Zealand, because eventually you have to have trade and travel.

[@W_Bin]

@@amosbatto3051 Hey that's pretty interesting made up BS from some Qanon psycho who thinks you can rewrite reality by making up lies, Did you make it up yourself? Were you one of the US trolls who harassed our PM into resigning? NZ had ZERO TOLERANCE, and zero infections, our government got rid of it totally. And more than once, after people brought it in. Travel and trade would not have spread it if other governments did what ours did. Because there would have been nothing to spread. Unfortunately fools like you spread it. And you still don't understand the basic no-brainer science of what you have done. Thank you from the Pharmaceutical companies.

[@cicaizrogace8054]

Lepa i lažna priča.

[@ggc7318]

Go home Dan Wang

[@unreliablenarrator6649]

Wow, Klein goes completely off the r5ails on "surveillance state". This shows his absolute ignorance about actual life in China and his ideological orientation. Wang gently course-corrects the discussion.

[@lumo5691]

Intellectual property should have come up.... say at least once?!