Untangling the Mess of Campus Protests

On this episode, the hosts get heated about the political divisions and contradictions revealed by the recent campus protests and ask why some in Washington seem so invested in perpetuating the demonstrations.
(A full transcript of this audio essay will be available within 24 hours of publication on the Times website.)
Thoughts about the show? Email us at [e-mail] (mailto:[e-mail]) or leave a voicemail at [phone].

[@llamaboss1434]

Would this be described as "a mess", and the protestors as "confused", if the protestors were rightoids?

[@gaslitworldf.melissab2897]

Equally so. That is how we describe American politics anyway.

[@tonioinverness]

Yes. What's your point?

[@cameraman502]

yes and worse

[@rapauli]

Bobert and Beetljuice -- never argue with a college students who are paying attention

[@calj2090]

Is it a mess? 🤔

[@mtm5264]

I'm glad they highlight the bloated administration at universities. Their growth has been driven in part by fear of lawsuits and trying to keep as many students as possible in class to keep the rankings high.

[@hatilloguitar]

what is this mess.

[@kristinapopski7942]

This sounded like a dinner party gone wrong. Where are the Times's editorial standards? I'm having a hard time seeing how this confrontational, talking over each debacle is clarifying anything. Just adding more frustration to an already muddied situation. Sure, have an opinion writer with Republican views on for balance, but letting him gaslight and provoke without a calm response is not productive. Ending on ''when the Republicans defund the universities, this will return them to their initial purpose'' is insincere and infuriating.

[@oldasrocks9121]

'I have not walked around the protests." Enough said.

[@edwoodsr]

While I agree that universities should not be run as corporations that 'maximize shareholder value' I didn't hear why that would change the administrative response to the takeover of buildings (and other campus areas) ... actually the responses in 1968 & 2024 seem quite similar.

[@Agtsmirnoff]

It’s quite a simple stance to take, if you are actively supporting designated terrorist groups, to the point where you feature their flags prominently at your rallies, it’s generally not controversial to shut your protest down

[@oldasrocks9121]

Hamas has its own very distinct flag which is not on display at any protest that's been reported on.

[@vadcrch]

​@@oldasrocks9121there was hezbollah flags and communist flags spotted on

[@Isaaxz123]

The conflation of palestine with hamas is pretty telling here. If the israelis could avoid the massive civilian death toll they wouldve had a point

[@Isaaxz123]

​@@vadcrchThe student protestors have done a great job at messaging tbh, they wouldnt make a mistake like showing hezbollah flags. More likely it was a brain dead outsider in one of the non-student rallies nearby

[@Kevenruf]

So what if some of the people at the protests are wrong? That doesn't justify gassing and arresting them. The vast majority are right about the situation and they are raising the conversation and directly causing politicians to take sides. Which will result in change.

[@shariMT]

It is impossible to listen to you people talking over each other. You get an F for this one. It's too bad because you seem to want to be heard. Yet, you repel listeners by your lack of civil communication.

[@darksideatheist6299]

Imagine still defending the Vietnam War in this day...wtf is this...

[@vadcrch]

Imagine still waving Communist Flag in this day...wtf is this...

[@Isaaxz123]

​@@vadcrchthe Vietnam protestors werent all communists lol, is Strom Thurmand posting from his grave?

[@MayorMcC666]

North Vietnam had an illegal invasion to conquer the south. They both were post colonial states and neither had a unique claim to legitimacy.

[@Isaaxz123]

@@MayorMcC666 South Vietnam only existed because we couldnt ensure that a united vietnam would be majority non-commie in democratic elections. And it endured only because of our money and arms. Calling north vietnamese "imperialist" is just wrong.

[@darksideatheist6299]

@@MayorMcC666 Because we were fine with splitting a country in half as long as we had a say in how it ran while one side just wanted their country to be left out of a global power struggle.

[@gracelloyd3758]

He’s a lot

[@maxranger5710]

"its bad that the viet cong won" we really haven't learned anything

[@MayorMcC666]

do you think its bad south korea won? do you think Russia should own eastern europe and the former soviet union like it wants? say so!

[@llamaboss1434]

It is bad they won. They were objectively worse than the Americans as an army, but get a pass because they were native and "underdogs" there's a reason that Vietnam is now pro America, and it isn't because you remember that war correctly.

[@rapauli]

You pretend to discuss, but you just want to argue. bye

[@mujin70]

I'm an academic and liberal, but I find myself agreeing with moderate Republicans more often than not. Ross is right here most of the time, and the "righteous" anger tone of one of the reporters is frustrating. What should the leadership have done? That's the question. If politicians didn't take part, then how would people respond? I suspect the angry reporter only sanctions the left wing students.

[@gracelloyd3758]

I’m an academic and conservative and I actually felt the exact opposite. I think that the male reporter was responding from and expecting that his own personal experiences should trump logic and historical context. It was frustrating to listen to and I didn’t ultimately find it helpful as I don’t believe either one brought more information to the argument that I had not previously known. An information-anemic debate.

[@mujin70]

@@gracelloyd3758 , interesting take. Thanks for it.

[@lhandrovhal]

Who was.the female.speaker? Very grating, speaking over the other speaker, mostly emotional arguments. Plant-in?

[@mujin70]

She is completely frustrating esp since she is so self-righteous.

[@ssuwandi3240]

Basically she's lost control of the intended narrative so must argue intensely

[@leonidlando6528]

Didnt really undestand the point about the masks. Is it about doing something without being ready to face the consequenses or being ready to stand behind ones opinions? It is not only cowardly but somewhat infantile- like stealing the cookie and then lying about it.

[@Isaaxz123]

In a normal society the palestine Protestors wouldnt need masks, but since theyre protesting established american foreign policy, and entrenched Lobbying interests, those students face real threats of doxxing and job discrimination. The tenor of the pro israeli counterprotests is psychotic.

[@stephenboyington630]

I would generally agree. If you are doing something that you need to hide behind a mask to do, you should not do it. It is not honorable to hide.

[@worldadventuretravel]

Clearly you don't understand how the national security state and its Mossad apparatchiks work, so I'll patiently explain this to you: Students have been victims of drone surveillance attacks whereby Mossad facial recognition AI, provided by the U.S. government, has been used again and again to get them expelled, doxed online, and rendered unemployable by the many lesser corporations whose Stone Age viewpoints include supporting genocides of unarmed populations. It is a fundamental right to protect themselves in an fascist country under a fascist government doing fascist crackdowns of its own First Amendment rights for them to cover their faces, and anyone labeling this "cowardly" is either ignorant or just plain stupid. Genocide is, objectively, bad. It is SO bad, in fact, that millions of people on every continent have erupted in compassionate outrage against it. Just as a general rule, nobody should ever let genocide happen to anybody else, for any reason, ever. Genocide is the worst thing human beings have ever conceived of to inflict upon one another. So bear that in mind every time you hear someone spewing unhinged B.S. IN FAVOR OF genocide criticizing the people who are speaking out AGAINST genocide, proclaiming that it is the anti-genocide people who are in the wrong. Anyone with an IQ over 60 can reason this one out to its obvious conclusion, I'm quite sure. -Also, it must be pointed out that every time college campuses have erupted in protests about an issue, they have been on the right side of history.

[@Avacado721]

Having read dozens of comments here, I’ll skip.

[@seanvalentine4198]

Ross there are no normal republicans

[@oldasrocks9121]

Report on the unpunished Proud Boy violence at the UCLA protests.

[@Mel1000x]

She makes it sounds like innocent kids having fun. They committed violence and took over a building and defaced it. Get real. Get honest.

[@Isaaxz123]

Those students pay tuition, frankly they have a right to occupy that building and scribble some graffiti on it. Calling it violence just seems a bit hysteric too, especially compared to what israeli supporters allow the IDF and settlers to get away with.

[@aOneaTwoAndYouKnowWhatToDo]

​@@Isaaxz123By the same logic storming the capitol was fine because they pay taxes

[@worldadventuretravel]

Perhaps you should consider redirecting your outrage over your perceived "violence" toward the ACTUAL violence happening in Gaza right now. Genocide is, objectively, bad. It is SO bad, in fact, that millions of people on every continent have erupted in compassionate outrage against it. Just as a general rule, nobody should ever let genocide happen to anybody else, for any reason, ever. Genocide is the worst thing human beings have ever conceived of to inflict upon one another. So bear that in mind every time you hear someone spewing unhinged B.S. IN FAVOR OF genocide criticizing the people who are speaking out AGAINST genocide, proclaiming that it is the anti-genocide people who are in the wrong. Anyone with an IQ over 60 can reason this one out to its obvious conclusion, I'm quite sure. -Also, it must be pointed out that every time college campuses have erupted in protests about an issue, they have been on the right side of history.

[@jennysteves7226]

Very unpleasant and absolutely unhelpful listen. A terrible way to begin a day. Please find a less obnoxious way to express your valid and differing opinions. This is not how we should be talking with one another in order to untangle, soften and creatively handle the many predicaments we face. You set a poor example in a time when maturity and wisdom could not matter more.

[@MayorMcC666]

lol people who believe in the legitimacy of the state of israel are done trying to argue! you will have to adapt sorry

[@jennysteves7226]

@@MayorMcC666that would include me, and I think the vast majority of people in the US. I also believe in the legitimacy of a state of Palestine. Yes, And. My comment referred to the abrasive choice of format, not the content.