How Cleveland Rejected the Subway

[@FutureBoyWonder]

So much transit potential in Cleveland. We have a decent set of rail for a city of our size. The real shame is the removal of street cars

[@dobekkujda5479]

we need this now more than ever. replacing the bus loop we currently have should be replaced with a subway or at least a tram loop

[@otm646]

That's the most wasteful proposal you could make. A subway system only makes sense where you have such density that additional road traffic is not feasible. Cleveland is not that busy. Both the cost, the economic disruption and the emissions from a subway system install are extraordinarily high for very limited value.

[@Michael-rr7um]

@@otm646 So we should wait until Cleveland has a greater population so the issues with creating rail transit would be magnified even more?

[@CraigFThompson]

@@Michael-rr7umWhich of course makes even LESS sense; buses, being just automobiles like cars, have a tendency to create traffic jams and other troubles associated with the excessive use of rubber tires and steering wheels.

[@CraigFThompson]

⁠@@otm646BULL to the SHIT! When New York City extended their subways to the outer boroughs on elevated structures, one could stand on a station platform and, by rotating 360 degrees, could see almost ALL of the city, as most of the city wasn’t nearly as built up as it presently is. There’s just NO EXCLUSIVE for not providing non-automotive public transit in the vast majority of our major cities and towns; after all, stuperhighways ravage far too many of them already!!

[@astroboy5137]

@@Michael-rr7um I love Cleveland, but the population is still decreasing. Not worth the billions & billions of dollars to build it.

[@AlaskaPowerBottom]

What I think is really interesting about subway detractors is that they bring up the cost and difficulty of construction as reasons to kill a rapid transit project. However, these are relatively short term inconveniences compared to the longevity of a subway and the windfall it can bring to commercial areas. Think of the Chicago L, the bulk of the L system was built by the first world war and 110 years later it is still a huge asset to the city of Chicago.

[@adanactnomew7085]

Not to mention the destruction of the freeways

[@CraigFThompson]

@@adanactnomew7085 Oh, if only more metropolitan areas would remove those damned “Hitler strips”!!

[@mats7492]

@@adanactnomew7085 and the billions and billions of maintenance! Constant resurfacing every couple years... lets not kid ourselves.. politicians like that are in the pocket of big oil and the car lobby...

[@adanactnomew7085]

Crazy how subways were need as too expensive and too intrusive, so instead they built way more expensive freeways that destroyed half the city

[@CraigFThompson]

@@adanactnomew7085 “Automobiliation” actually IS a very serious condition; it not only affects individuals, but cities and entire NATIONS as well!!

[@motorizedvehiclehegemony4107]

Freeways destroyed the entire city. And every city in the US and many of the cities around the world.

[@mats7492]

and generate ZERO income while costing billions in maintenance alone.. but if youre bribed by the car lobby you will ignore rational thoughts

[@CraigFThompson]

@@mats7492 Money talks; if it shouts loud enough, it can be quite deafening to certain individuals. The automotive industry and energy corporations shouted loudly and long enough to deafen these peoples’ perception of the truth.

[@EdwardM-t8p]

The Midwest is filled with cities that had shocking failures to build proper rapid transit systems. It's not just Cleveland there's also Rochester, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis - Saint Paul, Saint Louis, and Kansas City. Either there was a failure to conceive, rejection of ballot questions, or abandonment of the starter line in mid-construction, or ceasing of construction after the starter line opened because ridership wasn't crush crowds right away.

[@otm646]

You're painting with a massively uninformed brush. These cities had vast public transportation systems, look at what Detroit was doing with the street cars. They had transit systems that fit their needs at the time. As the needs changed, those transit systems went away.

[@sglenny001]

@EdwardM-t8p isn't the mud west also called the rust belt

[@Michael-rr7um]

@@otm646 The "needs" didn't change the money was just invested into automobile infrastructure instead. People still need public transit.

[@CraigFThompson]

@@Michael-rr7umAnd as we’re “suddenly” discovering that stuperhighways have been nothing but a huge waste of taxpayers’ money at all governmental levels, there’s a massive, prodigious rush to reconstruct rail-based transit in cities once possessing functional systems, or to build systems in cities that never had them initially.

[@CraigFThompson]

@EdwardM-t8p Please read “Moving Millions” by Stanley I. Fischler; this book will tell you pretty much went wrong with rail-based public transportation in the nation. It was ALL caused by the automotive industry and energy corporations lobbying Congress for endless automotive (and airline) oversubsidization.

[@Michael-rr7um]

I always appreciate how well put together these are. You really do great work and the experts you feature are well spoken and really contribute a great deal to the story you tell. I hope we continuously enhance and expand our public rail network in the Cleveland metropolitan area, especially as the midwest and Great Lakes region will likely see a large increase in population in the coming decades.

[@aaronparys1750]

Many Cities Should have been building Subways Years ago !!!

[@CraigFThompson]

@@aaronparys1750 And they can start even NOW! All it’d take is a shift of transportation spending from automotive to rail.

[@Rockman_Halo]

10:42 makes my soul cry. Lived in Fairview and now Parma. Rarely utilize RTA because I'm not in the service area.

[@marcio3santos]

@3:29 Give credit where credit is due: Cleveland did build the first airport rail link in North America in 1968 to CLE which connects to every terminal. 50+ years later LaGuardia, IAH, CLT, DTW and countless other airports are struggling to get off the proverbial drawing board with their airport rail connections. FYI Cincinnati also built downtown subway tunnels that never got used: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Subway

[@SamuelFeldkampMusic]

Nice informative video! The subway should have been instituted in Cleveland a long time ago imo

[@harryscott9533]

Thank you for posting this , there's quite alot of information 🤓🙋‍♂️❤👍

[@calr4459]

I’ve lived in Cleveland for decades and rode the Rapid and took buses to downtown from the eastern suburbs for years. The “Rapid” and buses still serve downtown. A subway would have been impractical during the decades long deterioration of downtown Cleveland which only in the past decade has recovered. A better use of taxpayer money would have been to make the former train station in Cleveland Union Terminal suitable for an Amtrak station instead of that second rate Greyhound like terminal located by Browns Stadium.

[@CraigFThompson]

Cleveland NEEDS to construct a subway ASAP, as automotive use has long since become quite oppressive….

[@astroboy5137]

@@CraigFThompson it would cost billions & billions to build today.

[@CraigFThompson]

@@astroboy5137 And it’ll STILL be much cheaper than maintaining roadway surfaces for the automobile…. And totally unlike automotive roadway surfaces, the subway will collect fares; automotive roadway surfaces, outside of toll roads, just sit and guzzle trillions while providing lackluster performance.

[@motorizedvehiclehegemony4107]

This could only be done as a substitute for freeways and people would generally vote for a dictator that promised to protect their freeway sprawl if proposed.... Oh wait....

[@BLOATEDMAMMOTH]

Holy moly! What a video! Subways are so cool I wish I could always ride them. Haha 🦀

[@raytylicki52-gh9nr]

I can hear the Cleveland Accent!

[@opathe2nd973]

Wonderful video! I was born and raised in Berea in 1938. We raised a family there. We left in the 90's. What retrospective thoughts are today. Cleveland and the above ground systems worked well but ask a few questions. When I 90 to the west was proposed, why was no transit system built into the center of the expressway? When I 77 was improved the same question can be asked. Unfortunately, the leaders were not thinking about where transportation was needed. That said, as we look back at how the industry leaders and unions let all the jobs disappear from the area and no matter what you would have planned in the 1950's , none would have saved a once great city.

[@larrydemaar409]

Interesting report! Too bad that Porter opposed the subway.

[@mityace]

I lived in Akron from '85 to '95 and worked mostly downtown Cleveland from '91 to '95 and I never knew about this. IMO, there was room for both the freeways and for rail transit. It's too bad it had to be one or the other. For example, if what is now the Green Line is extended 1.5 miles east to I-271, it could attract a lot of commuters from the east side.

[@andrewfidel2220]

@@mityace you can thank racists for the fact that the line didn't extend farther east. It was supposed to, and you can see the right of ways that were cleared for it, but before track could be laid the population that didn't want "those people" to have easy access to far east neighborhoods had managed to stop it from being built.

[@heightsbandsman4304]

@@andrewfidel2220 I think your analysis is not at all correct. I have followed this subject since 1955 and I've never heard anyone cite racism as a cause. Where are your supporting facts?

[@CraigFThompson]

@@larrydemaar409 Top bad Porter was BOUGHT by the automotive industry….

[@motorizedvehiclehegemony4107]

Porter also went to prison for shaking down his employees. He hated cities.

[@deadcorpert619]

Thank you for making this video, super interesting and informative.

[@Game_Hero]

Even the subway is getting out with the jobs out of Cleveland

[@joeltwomey6457]

Cleveland dose in fact have a Subway system. The RTA subway and light rail system, however it doesn’t go to a lot of sections of the city and only has so many stops and only so many people use it but we do have one

[@BigMoTheBlackDragon]

So, does Cleveland get to sue Porter, Gund, et al & their estates for the decades of economic depression the lack of rail caused?

[@williamerazo3921]

Cleveland would have been Chicago East with a downtown subway but nah. Let’s still be a rust belt city

[@ktoth29]

Pretty sure Chicago is Chicago because its the hub of the railroad network connecting the eastern and western halves of the country.

[@wiggetman]

doesn't cleveland have a 1 line metro

[@sheaskateboarding]

Another example of Cleveland looking into the now instead of future.

[@farajaraf]

That would have been a small subway.

[@CraigFThompson]

@@farajaraf Which would’ve expanded as time progressed….

[@farajaraf]

@@CraigFThompson right. But it just seems like it hardly covers downtowns core.

[@farajaraf]

@@CraigFThompson but I guess it was just meant to start things off. Public square would be amazing without the buses

[@truedarklander]

@@farajaraf It was to serve the already existing air-rail link

[@TheNorthwestWind]

great history!!!!

[@interstellarphred]

Rapid transit is also light; note how it shares the "light" tracks with what is essentially trams. If it was "heavy" it would operate on the FRA spec, national system.

[@Foraker-ii1fe]

The red Line to the airport is heavy rail. The blue and green lines are light rail.

[@interstellarphred]

@@Foraker-ii1fe so what is the criteria for "heavy"? the platform loading height?

[@interstellarphred]

Support C-FART Campaign For Accurate Railway Terminology High platform rapid transit is not "heavy"

[@nathan1sixteen]

This here is a great example of not investing in infrastructure when times are good, which ultimately results in having crap infrastructure when you need it most

[@dindog22]

now we have those dumb bendy busses

[@CraigFThompson]

MORONIC would be a much more fitting word!

[@deadcorpert619]

The accordion buses rock.

[@CraigFThompson]

@@deadcorpert619 ....And roll, and bang, and shake, and rattle, and bounce----in addition to wasting time in traffic jams and waiting for green lights to change red, just to waste time at the intersection.

[@mats7492]

And theyre outdated from a design standpoint..they still look they were build in the 1980s..

[@drewk1514]

Sad to think a short sighted bonehead like Porter was able to "derail" a project that could have been a long term benefit to downtown. Freeways were great for moving CARS, but what happened when all those cars converged on downtown? Traffic congestion, lack of parking made downtown less attractive but made outlying areas more attractive.

[@CraigFThompson]

@@drewk1514 In fact, the “Hitler strips” have proven themselves inefficient even at moving vehicles; traffic jams abound, as well as road rage…. Not to mention that these stuperhighways cost the entire country a trillion dollars annually….

[@LeeHawkinsPhoto]

Porter is an even more interesting figure than this video shows…the guy reeked of corruption…he was/became a party boss and eventually went down because of a kickback scheme in the County Engineer’s office. He was almost certainly being supported by the auto industry just upstream in Detroit.

[@CraigFThompson]

@@LeeHawkinsPhoto And most likely the energy corporations as well.

[@heightsbandsman4304]

A subway might have been a good idea 60 years ago, but today there are practically no office workers downtown and nearly zero retail. In other words, there's no reason to go downtown on a daily basis (maybe for a game or other special event), so who would use it today? Albert S. Porter was a sort of civic vandal--imagine destroying Shaker Lakes and both Cleve. Heights & Shaker Hts. for freeways! His Innerbelt Fwy. ruined several neighborhoods, as well. There's a sort of rough justice: No subway, but no Clark or Lee Freeways, either. Cleveland sure could use another Tom L. Johnson as Mayor.

[@Michael-rr7um]

I mean Sherwin Williams is building a massive tower in public square. I would also imagine infill development replacing surface parking across downtown would likely improve the retail environment.

[@heightsbandsman4304]

@@Michael-rr7um I take your point. But the workers in the Sherwin Williams building have RTA just outside the door (and trains inside the Terminal); they wouldn't use a subway in any event.

[@jacksonp2397]

But there's indication that many of these downtown businesses would have survived much longer given being downtown wouldn't be so much of a disadvantage as it is today, given the hassle to get there

[@Michael-rr7um]

@@heightsbandsman4304 Sure if it was just the subway as suggested from the 1950's.

[@CraigFThompson]

Hell, a subway would be a great idea, ESPECIALLY TODAY! At the very least, such a system could lead to a noticeable reduction in automotive use.

[@cynthiahintz1900]

Very interesting!

[@WarLore]

HEY ! MARK SOUTHER!!!

[@89volvowithlazers]

Wow seems the road pals and no vision for the future conspired to crush the concept. You also lost a football team at the same time and the baseball team started to tank the balance of the next 2 decades. So the whole thing just slides down

[@luisreyes1963]

If Los Angeles & Washington, DC can manage a subway, why can't Cleveland? Small wonder they still have an airport.

[@mrxman581]

Very true.

[@astroboy5137]

Compair population and tax base! No comparison!

[@CraigFThompson]

@@astroboy5137 *Compare.

[@deadcorpert619]

Those cities are like ten times the size of Cleveland…

[@CraigFThompson]

@@deadcorpert619 Still NO EXCUSE for Cleveland not having its own subway; automotive-based public transit has long since proven itself inefficient and expensive.

[@LifeOnCoach]

🚉 ✌🏾

[@89volvowithlazers]

Surface rail repurposing for trans maybe? I always see pro Cleveland urban wants and wishes and there is always optimism about cleveland transit

[@alessandro7805]

Mistake on the Lake does another mistake

[@ktoth29]

Probably for the best that this didn’t get built in 1950… Cleveland has been shrinking ever since. And the Detroit Superior bridge is not a subway because its above ground. Also Tom Johnson gets way too much credit, he divested his street railroad ten years before he consolidated the system under municipal control, he knew it was a losing bet.

[@mrxman581]

Had Cleveland have a comprehensive subway today, I doubt the city would be decreasing in population. Building a comprehensive subway system is the kind of infrastructure that benefits a city for 100s of years.

[@mats7492]

id did shrink cause everyone was tzold to buy houses in the suburbs so that they needed CARS! and thats bankrupting cities..