How Clutchless Shifting Works on a Motorcycle and Why it doesn't damage a gearbox

[@TheBalija1]

I've been shifting up without clutch since I bought my first geared motorcycle(that happened 2 months ago, but I've been riding motorcycles with cvt for years). My upshifts are pretty smooth, but today I catched myself downshifting withoud pressing clutch(yes I did it without thinking about it), and I couldnt beleve myself how smooth those downshifts were. I realised that I was opening throttle same as I woluld do when rev-matching(and using clutch). Now my question is, does this do any harm to my motorcycle, because I do it mostly for eninge breaking. For example I am coasting in third gear with thorttle fully closed, and I want to slow down, so i need more engine braking I slightly open thorttle and shift down with ease, but difference between 2nd and 3rd gear is huge, so my revs go up few thousands, so I am concerned that is big shock for my transmission eventhoe it feels smooth. And same case 2nd to first, feels smoother than downshift using clutch, but I am cocnerned as rpms go high, and engine breaking is enormous..

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello TheBalija1. Thanks for your question. Downshifting without the clutch doesn't harm your motorcycle. Downshifting without the clutch is a very efficient way to downshift on a motorcycle and is the reason why clutchless downshifts feel so much smoother than your clutch downshifts. Using the clutch adds a timing variable that many rider's (including myself) can't always be consistent with, causing poorly executed downshifts. The huge rev increase when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd and 2nd to 1st is completely natural and would be what you would experience with a well performed clutch shift. If a clutch shift is performed poorly you run the risk of experiencing excessive engine braking to the point that it can rapidly slow the rear wheel causing it to slide or what's commonly referred to as rear wheel "lock up". Usually, on street bikes, 1st to 3rd gear provide the most torque and 4th to 6th provide the most speed. While accelerating you'll notice that at 20mph in 1st gear you'll be at much higher revs than if you were in 6th gear at 20mph. When you downshift you are going to get the revs that that gear needs to be at for the particular speed you are traveling when you downshift. The higher the revs the more engine braking you get, you get more engine braking in the lower gears (1st-3rd) than in the higher gears (4th-6th). The key to take away though is that the engine braking is normal and whether you use the clutch or not it will be there. The only way to minimize it is to let your road speed drop more before you downshift vs downshifting immediately at high road speeds. For example my 600 is geared to do 70mph at redline in 1st gear. My bike revs to 16,000 rpm before it hits redline. Now if I''m coming up to a corner at 90mph and I'm in 3rd gear at 13,500 revs, I brake and then immediately downshift into 1st gear but I'm at 70 to 75mph then I'm going to encounter a great deal of engine braking, maybe too much to the point to cause a small slide. Now if I wait a little before downshifting until my speed is around 50 to 55mph the rev jump won't be as excessive nor will the engine braking as a result. Thanks so much for your question TheBalija1. If you have any more feel free to ask.

[@TheBalija1]

Stephon Frazier Thanks for reply. I am familiar with concept of gearing, I know why I have a lot of torque at rear wheel in lower gears(and why there is a lot of engine breaking power in lower gears), and why I can achieve much higher speeds in higher gears. Only thing that concernes me is that when downshifting clutchless gearbox takes all forces, but when I do it with clutch, one part of those forces are transfered to clutch. So without clutch more forces on gearbox=greater chances of damage? 2nd question: my bike has slipper cluthc, does it takes some forces of gearobox, even when shifting clutchless? 3rd question: Gearbox on my bike is thightly packet, so I never ever hit false neutral, but when accelrating hard, gears sometime slip(falling out of gear). I have experienced this problem twice(same day both time) once it was very very dangerous, I was in third gear(almost hitting rev limitter), clutchless sihfted up to 4th and then fully oppened throttle, bike continued accelerating and as I enteret corner(mild corner, lean angle wasnt that big), It fell again into third and I almost fell of bike, probably slipper clutch, good tires and good asphalt(high friction)saved me. Very very scary experience. same day few hours later I was accelrating from red light(I was fully stopped), shifted to second and bike started pulling for second, and then fell into neutral(not scary at all, my revs went high as there was no gear engaged). It is hard to enjoy corners again, as I'm always afraid that this will happen again.

[@TheBalija1]

ps. second time gear slipped I was using clutch to shift. First time I wasn't.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hey TheBalija1. Regarding your first question, regardless whether you use the clutch or not the clutch still takes up some of the forces that you encounter when downshifting. Now if you slip the clutch you're allowing the engine speed to gradually catch up to (blend) with the rear wheel speed. But an efficient clutch downshift would be the same as an efficient clutchless downshift. Slipper clutches were intended to relieve excessive engine braking from poor downshifts where revs dropped below what was necessary to match rear wheel speed. If you perform a smooth clutchless or clutch downshift the slipper clutch shouldn't relieve any of the natural engine braking you get from downshifting. Slipper clutches reduce the chance of locking the rear wheel due to poor downshifts. I understand your concern about gears popping out and it sounds like the gear dogs may be rounded causing them to slip out under higher egine loads. It's also possible that your shift forks could be bent and not fully meshing the dogs into the gear slots. Technique wise, are you making sure you carry the shift lever through it's full travel when upshifting? Is your shift lever bent? Have you recently adjusted your shift lever? Is the shift lever securely fastened to the selector shaft? This could be a gearbox issue or a very minor oversight. Make sure everything regarding the shift lever and rod is okay first and then think about the gearbox. Also make sure you carry the shift lever through its full motion when shifting. Also what type of bike do you ride? Sometimes small engine motorcycles are a pain in the but to shift, meaning you have to be very deliberate with them (for whatever reasons). I hope this helps TheBalija1. Thanks for you questions and if you have any more hit me up.

[@TheBalija1]

Stephon Frazier I am riding kawasaki z300. Maybe small engine is cause, because eveyting looks fine(nothing is bent and I haven't made any adjustment since I bought this bike). I also have again to mention that this only happened 2 times, both on same day. and one more question, you said that when using clutch I give engine more time to adjust rpms. If I dont use, then engine rpms go up or down in very short period of time, which means greater forces on gerbox?

[@Keekoook]

Have been riding for about 2 years, and I'm only just learning this now.. I wish this was taught to me earlier. Thanks a lot man.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

You're welcome Hugh Jainus. Thanks for commenting.

[@marioncobretti2407]

That explains why I can do clutchless downshifts right after letting off the throttle. And now I know it's not bad for the bike. Sweet

[@stephonfrazier5434]

That's right Marion Cobertti. Thank you for your comment and thanks for watching.

[@steve23464]

I don't believe shifting without the clutch damages anything in the gearbox if done properly, however new or ham fisted riders should stick with the clutch. If you miss that window of unloading the gearbox with the throttle even by a little bit it'll wear out not your gear dogs or gears but your shift forks. Most riders in daily traffic riding won't hit that window perfectly every shift hence the reason the manufacturers recommend using the clutch to shift.

[@HipsterNgariman]

Two people disliked but it's a very instructive video. I wanted to know more about clutchless shifting because it's easier to understand proper technique with the knowledge behind it, especially how a dog box works and how do you reduce torque to make the shifting possible. From my ...two days experience with clutchless shifting, I remarked that I had trouble with both ways : When upshifting, I used to let off the throttle completely and sometimes it would just not shift and I didn't understand why ("is my 2000 SV650s gearbox worn ? aren't Suzuki gearboxes supposed to be military tanks ?"). When downshifting, I noticed that the smoothest way you could possibly shift is when you blip at the same rev as the gear you'll shift into (exactly like clutched throttle blipping), so it's a bit more complex than just reducing torque, and it requires proper understanding of your machine and precise throttle control. From now, my clutchless shifts (both up and down) are still a bit jittery. I thank you and I'll practice my motorcycle technique to be that guy who doesn't want to buy any kind of modern bike because rider aids won't improve his spirited riding ! haha Greetings from France

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Alex Gal. Thank you for your comment. I want to encourage you to keep working on your clutchless shifting technique. Reducing torque with a preloaded shift lever will allow fast, smooth clutchless shifting going up or down the gearbox. The throttle input is different for both but either way you are reducing torque. Alex, regarding your problems with clutchless shifting: for upshifts (and downshifts) make sure you preload the shift lever. The opportunity to select a gear is extremely brief and if you perform your throttle input and then attempt to move your foot to the shift lever it will be too late so you won't be able to shift or you'll feel some resistance through the lever as you shift gears. The smoothness of the shift starts with selecting the gear immediately as the throttle input is performed. Don't close the throttle completely for upshifts and quite obviously don't completely open the throttle for downshifts either. Many riders make the mistake of completely closing the throttle when clutchless upshifting. Doing that will produce rough, jerky upshifts. Partial reduction of an open throttle with a preloaded shift lever is all that is needed. When you completely close the throttle you are telling the motorcycle to slow down and then more than likely you'll snap the throttle back on to continue your acceleration; not smooth. For downshifts reducing torque, just like with clutchless upshifts, produces smooth clutchless downshifts. But to reduce torque you blip (slightly open) the throttle while having your shift lever preloaded and the new lower gear can be selected. Smooth downshifts are a product of maintaining the revs you are at, not trying to blip the throttle to the revs you think the next lower gear needs to be at. If you blip it to the exact or approxiamte amount that is fine but who knows what revs you need to be at when you are going to shift to 5 gear at 55mph/kph. The real goal is to maintain your revs with the blip and you will get a smooth shift. Rough downshifts are a product of losing revs. If you maintain revs, or raise them just slightly above what they need to be, there will be no penalty. You will still encounter the natural engine braking you get from a four stroke when you close the throttle in any particular gear. When you clutchless downshift (selecting your gear quickly by preloading the shift lever) you never lose revs, you maintain them the whole time so you will get smooth gear shifts to the next lower gear, all you need to do is blip the throttle and then close it as the new gear is selected. Yes, the technique for gear shifting is one of skill and precision and that's what my book discusses, breaking it down in further detail. Smooth gear shifting is a high level skill just like getting your knee down and hitting your apexes at the track. Gear shifting gets glossed over too easily in the riding community and you end up with a whole lot of confusion about it. As far as precise throttle control that's what my book is for and what it discusses. But I stand by what I said it's about torque reduction and everything starts from there, torque reduction will be small, brief, and sudden, the amount of torque reduction will be small, the time spent doing so will be brief and it will happen suddenly not gradually. Using the throttle skillfully in this manner will take some time. Unfortunately, many riders take far too long to shift and feed excessive throttle inputs into their gearbox or altogether get their timing wrong and that's what my book goes into detail to discuss. We are talking milliseconds here, and most people are far to slow and excessive with their inputs. They treat shifting on a motorcycle's constant mesh sequential gearbox like they are shifting on a car's sychromesh gearbox. To get into precise throttle control for clutch and clutchless shifting throttle input for an upshift will be reduction of throttle to release torque in the gearbox to change gears and then resumption of throttle to continue to accelerate in the new gear. Reduce torque (dip/release throttle)/resume what was let off. With downshifts you will blip the throttle to release torque in the gearbox to change gears and then resume closing the throttle in the new lower gear to continue decelerating. Reduce torque (blip)/resume closed throttle. The very foundation of clutchless gear shifting is reducing torque to free the dogs from the slot walls so a gear change can be made. Gear dogs and slots are only millimeters apart from each other from gear to gear so selecting your gear immediately (by preloading the shift lever) allows rapid smooth shifts and no time for a rev discrepancy to occur blending revs between engine gears and rear wheel gears smoothly. Select gears slowly, you'll get rough shifts or no shifts at all (or lots of false neutrals). Feed too much throttle input into the gearbox and you'll get rough shifts. Immediate gear selection and adequate throttle input are key for smooth shifts. I hope this helps some and if you have any more questions feel free to ask. Once again thank you for you comment.

[@HipsterNgariman]

Hi Stephon, thank you for your quick and detailed answer. I was already preloading my shifter, but I'll try all these good things you said above. I'll try not to completely close the throttle when upshifting (+ my bike is carburated so when I was opening the throttle after my upshift, it was always more shaky than a smooth clutched shifting), and forget about matching revs on downshifting. It seems weird because when I downshifted without matching my revs (by mistake), it was abrupt and felt harsh to the gearbox, but maybe my blip wasn't smooth enough. Have a nice day

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hey Alex Gal. Yes try what you suggested with the clutchless upshifts. That should help make them smoother and also make sure you maintain pressure on the shift lever throughout the shifting process. If you take your foot off of the lever prematurely the spring that resets your lever is only going to slow the gear changing process which will cause a rough shift or cause a false neutral. You definitely want to "match revs" on downshifts, as so many people call it. But your blip is an attempt to maintain revs at the minimum, that's all that's needed. I like to call it rev maintenance instead of rev matching. If you don't blip (i. e. "match revs) you will have abrupt shifts and will risk dramatically slowing the rear wheel and crashing. When you use the clutch to downshift you want to pull in the clutch and blip at the same exact time. Can you pull in the clutch first and then blip? Yes. But when you do that you are letting revs drop first and if you don't provide an adequate blip and engage the clutch you will get an abrupt engagement. The most efficient way to downshift with the clutch is to simultaneously provide throttle input (blip) with your clutch slip/disengagement. The moment you slip or disengage your clutch with a closed throttle revs will drop. If you slip the clutch they drop slowly, if you disengage the clutch they drop quickly. If you engage the clutch after revs drop a little or a lot you'll get a abrupt engagement. The degree of abruptness will be based on how many revs you lost and the particular gear you are in. Since this drop in revs happens the instant you slip or disengage the clutch your goal is to maintain the revs you are at or raise them just slightly more (either is okay) by simultaneously blipping the throttle when you slip/disengage the clutch. If you perform this throttle input with your clutch pull ( simultaneously) at the bare minimum you'll maintain your engine revs and this will allow a smooth downshift into the next lower gear. Where a lot of riders get it wrong is in the clutch input, keeping the clutch slipped/disegaged for far too long. The best results will require that you use the clutch quite quickly. You would want to use the least amount of clutch pull to slip or disengage the clutch as necessary. Remember when you pull in the clutch you are effectively putting yourself in neutral. This is something you don't want because you create a rev discrepancy between the engine and rear wheel. This rev discrepancy is what causes rough shifts when using the clutch. A lot of riders aren't used to using the clutch minimally (thus quickly) and slowly engage the clutch losing revs from their blip and get an abrupt engagement. From this the rider will smartly decide to engage the clutch on downshifts slower and slower to produce a smooth shift, but will still blip the throttle losing the revs of their blip. This gradual release of the clutch smooths downshifts out but they are wasting energy blipping the throttle because now they are unknowingly using a downshifting technique called slipping the clutch where the rider keeps the throttle closed decides not to blip and instead slowly feeds the clutch out after each downshift (which is fine). But if they are going to let the clutch out that slowly they simply don't need to blip the throttle, the blip will come and go before the clutch is even engaged. Getting the clutch engagement and blip timing down is something that can cause problems and is hard to remedy in some riders because the process happens so fast they feel sure they are doing everything correctly. Well I wasn't trying to go on a tangent but keep blipping and working on your timing with your clutch engagements and you'll get it. It takes a little time and introspection but you'll get it.

[@GDurango11]

My motorcycle gear box became stiff af out of nowhere, so I came across this topic as a quick solution and I amazed, I'm definitely gonna try it. Sounds so good, and it makes sense that your clutch is gonna last longer as you don't over use it.

[@umeshjambagi8158]

Sir your right Every engine has its own oil pump When we increase speed oil sprayed On gears (this will not lead to any gear damage or jerks) at that time quick shift must be needed it means with in a fraction of second gears will be shifted Another thing is that as your shifting gears with or without clutch gear shifting sound remain same then you are correct with it. According to me this process will be done in emergency occassions.

[@josephparry]

Brilliant video, I just put a lesson up on KZbin demonstrating moving up from clutch top clutchless so this is a wonderful complementary video!

[@lucaric6935]

Hello, ur video is very helpful, i have a question: i accidentally shift from 1st to neutral instead of 2nd( 45kmph) and then i shift back to 2nd. and theres clunck sound, how much damage does it cause to shift fork/dogs compared to improper clutchless down shift/ mis shift😢

[@colinmarcano1430]

Great video great visuals thanks for taking the time to explain in detail!!

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Thanks Colin Marcano.

[@neverquit7190]

That was an incredibly fascinating demonstration! I have been riding full time for 2 years and did not know the mechanics going on in the transmission. Understanding what is happening helps a lot in every way. i suspect that, as you said, when riding hard you are going to wear things out, be it your clutch or your gears or whatever....things wear out. Now that I understand better what is going on, I willl make my own intelligent decision on when to use my clutch or not, and if one or the other wears out, wihch eventually all things do....big deal, I fix it. Everyone on the internet is a critic. You made a very helpful video. Thank you for the great video!

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hi Never Quit. Thanks a lot for your comment and compliment. What you say is very true. I have a feeling that most people are more interested in looking at their motorcycles than riding them. This is not meant as an insult but as a truth for some. I don't blame them, for one, motorcycles are extremely beautiful machines but I have a feeling this makes a lot of people want to keep their motorcycles pristine inside and out; the definition of pristine: "in it's original condition; unspoiled". If you actually want to ride that's just not going to happen. It's like a basketball player who doesn't want to mess up his new basketball sneakers so he walks up and down the court (instead of running) to slow the rate of getting wrinkles in his new sneakers. The point of a performance sneaker is to perform. The point of parts on a motorcycle are to perform certain task (daily, weekly, monthly) and as a result of performing those task they incrementally wears in the process over time. The point of the gearbox is to transmit the engine's torque to the rear wheel. If a rider shifts gears incorrectly they excessively accelerate the natural incremental wear that naturally takes place over an extended period of time. But even then a gearbox can handle far more than people think. All it takes though is one fudge up (that no one knows the real reason for) to scare people to do or not to do a particular thing depending on who has the biggest mouth. To cut to the chase what so many detractors of clutch-less shifting or any other riding technique miss is that technique execution is the primary reason why something works or doesn't, not the actual technique used. So many detractors lose focus of learning proper technique execution and gloss over this as being the sole culprit for a lot of the damage or risk involved in any controversial riding technique or skill. I can write all day about some of these things that get a bad rap that shouldn't. Riders can do a ton of amazing things on a motorcycle if they learn proper technique and yes it takes time and yes they end up finding out they're not as good as they think but they expand their knowledge of what they and their machine are capable of. If learned incrementally, with a lot of thinking after a ride, they learn they can do a number of things without getting hurt or having their machine blow up as many arm-chair and paranoid riders claim. For those looking to shift without excessively wearing out their gearbox, here are my two basic (but key) tips: 1). Shift gears quickly: use the shift-lever quickly and deliberately, don't use it slowly or halfheartedly, 2). Use the throttle and clutch quickly and in the smallest amount necessary to complete a shift. Shifts take place in milliseconds and humans are a bit too slow to shift efficiently with a constant mesh gearbox, both with the throttle and the clutch. This can be overcome with practice and the the key to developing literally blink of an eye speed is to use the throttle and/or clutch in the smallest amounts necessary to achiever smooth shifts. This way you aren't loading the gearbox with excessive breaks or spikes in power which can result in a sudden load on your gearbox (even then you aren't "destroying" things as many will try to have you believe). The biggest threat is you mess up tire traction causing the rear wheel to either spin up from excessive power spikes (not good in the wet/low traction pavement or on old tires) or to rapidly and excessively slow down ("locked" rear wheel) causing a rear wheel slide. Thanks a lot for the comment Never Quit.

[@MarcusYangNilsson]

So good explanation, the best I have seen on YT!

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Thanks a lot Marcus. I'm glad you understood it and rate it highly.

[@neiloakey5183]

Great video... I learn't loads and actually understanding this for myself dispels all the myths.. I clutch-less upshift really smoothly (after lots of practice).

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hi Neil Oakey. Thanks so much for your comment; it means a lot to me. I really hope it helps many, many others also. Yes, it definitely takes some practice to get the touch down with the particular bike you're riding. Clutchless shifts can be done smoothly and are very efficient. Thanks Neil Oakey.

[@DazzaOnGoogle]

So, watching this, I get how throttle control and pre-loaded lever can minimise impact wear on the currently loaded dogs and slots, by causing the dog to unload from the slot, and release. What about the next phase, when the next gear dog engages. The dog on the next gear will come crashing into the slot, as the dog and the gear will be at very different speeds, and the collision transmits the torque between the drive and output shafts. I can see how you can minimise wear, but it's always going to be tougher on the box than a clutch shift (which includes the speed matching bit as well)

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Darren Steven. Thanks for your question. Your great question is a common concern of riders who contemplate incorporating clutchless shifting into their riding. The phase that you are concerned about is also controlled by throttle control. What has to be understood is that when you engage a new set of dogs into a new set of slots the smoothness of the shift is not only determined by an immediate shift but also by your throttle control. Making the shift immediately greatly reduces the chance of creating big rev/force discrepancies allowing one to be less precise with their throttle control though. You can impart mild or massive force with the throttle. This will dictate whether the dogs/slots will come crashing into each other or whether they will meet with relatively equal force, causing dog and slot contact, rather than dog and slot crashing. Get on the throttle too much and you slam the dogs into the slot and have a rough gear change (excessive acceleration). Don't get on the throttle enough and the same thing happens again (excessive deceleration) where slamming takes place rather than contact and you don't get a smooth seamless shift. There really is a fine point in getting this correct and it takes some practice, especially if you don't select gears quickly. Once again though, making the shift as soon as possible eliminates the time gap necessary to produce large rpm/force discrepancies. This is because you are mating the dog into the slot immediately when the forces between the dog and slot will be at their most equal. If your timing is slower, then throttle control comes more into play to help smooth out the shift. These rough shifts are usually very common when riding at low rpms, using more throttle input than necessary for the slow speeds and forces being created in the gearbox at low throttle settings. I'm sure you have heard many riders say that clutchless shifting seems smoother at high rpms and the main reason is that you are using more of the throttles twisting range and you can't go much over where you're already at (you can't roll the throttle on much more past where you already are). Whereas with low throttle setting you have much more throttle to twist and if a rider is not disciplined with throttle control he can create lots of rough shifts by over-twisting the throttle. So how would one use the throttle when clutchless shifting? When a rider uses the throttle his/her throttle input/control should be small, brief and sudden. The amount of the throttle blip should be small, the time spent blipping or dipping the throttle should be brief and it should happen suddenly, not gradually. I go into more detail regarding the small nuances of throttle control when shifting but this is more than adequate to get you on your way. Hopefully this answers your question and if you have any more feel free to ask. Once again thank you very much Darren Steven for your question.

[@len1662]

Stephon Frazier I do clutchless shifts on my car and truck, but in a motor cycle the engine and gearbox share the same oil, so metal shavings in gear box will possibly and probably go right into the motor, no thanks, motors are sensitive, also so are bearings, it sets a bad habbit, and people who have one bad shift per week with out the clutch can do so much damage, it doesn't take many times to grind gears to do permanate damage to the motor, and the entire powertrain...for what? because you don't wanna pull the clutch in lol ill get to 0-60 in 4.9 instead of 4.7 and save my engine im not a pro racer with deep pockets

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Allah. You don't grind gears in a motorcycle gearbox. The gearbox consist of dogs and slots. If you do any damage to anything it will be the edges of the dogs and slots and that can happen with or without clutch use. I don't know if you do your own oil changes but you can always inspect your oil for metal shavings. If you don't do your own oil changes I'm sure your mechanic would let you know if he saw them. I've been clutchless shifting on my motorcycle for 4 years (and doing my own oil changes/inspection) and I have not seen any metal shaving in my oil, and I haven't always been perfect with my shifts either with or without the clutch. Thanks for your comment.

[@noellawr]

Thank you for this informative video. I'm going to buy your book.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Noellawr. Thanks so much for your purchase. If you ever have any questions on what I discuss in the book feel free to contact me here and I'll be more than happy to help you. You'll find the book goes into much further detail regarding proper shifting technique, revealing the proper control inputs required to perform consistent clean shifts. I hope you enjoy the book and I hope it provides you with tons of insight and knowledge regarding the gear shifting process on a motorcycle. Thank you for your comment Noellawr. Enjoy the book.

[@markwilliams8655]

Thank you.

[@TH-hj6lx]

Hello does the quickshifter damage gearbox?thanks

[@joonya4427]

Like most explanations of clutchless shifting, this only explains how a gear can safely disengaged without the clutch. What about the incoming gear. You have no idea of the alignment of the incoming gear dog and dog slots. This is where the damage from clutchless shifting is done. Every mechanical engineering opinion I have ever seen says that clutchless shifting puts more load on the dogs of the gear you are shifting into. I'll trust the opinion of a trained engineer over somebody without that training every time.

[@thepunisher1951]

Sir you are amazing, thanks a lot.

[@abhirotkar]

Thanks a lot for explaining this ... really helpful.

[@deznutsmcdonald5286]

Is it bad for clutch pack?

[@daverr8163]

Great video. I’ve done mostly clutchless upshifts but will try to do more clutchless downshifts . I’ve notice that the 1-2 shift is the harshest on both of my bikes , I think it’s mostly do to the bigger difference in gear ratio compared to like a 5-6 shift.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hey Daverr. That's a good observation regarding the difficulty of 1st to 2nd shifts vs 5th to 6th gear shifts. The ratio difference plays a part, as many people say, but I'm going to give you information to help work towards smooth shifting from 1st to 2nd gear. We need to understand what gears are used for to understand why it is more difficult to shift from 1st to 2nd. 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd gear, for street bikes, are primarily used to maximize force (torque). This means that throttle response will be touchy when you open and close it (engine braking). 4th, 5th and 6th gear are used to maximize speed as you have the bike moving from the three gears prior and so the throttle response is milder when you open and close the throttle. Why is this? It's because the gears (input) dictate the amount of power strokes the engine makes. A lower gear will have the engine make more power strokes than a higher gear. This is also why there is more engine braking in the lower gear than a higher gear when the throttle is closed. While the ratio drops are bigger in the lower gears than in the higher gears we have to learn how to use the throttle in relation to these ratio drops. Everyone has no problem using the throttle when it is mild in the higher gears but in the lower gears your best bet is to use the least amount of throttle necessary to pull the shift off and more than likely we use too much throttle for our clutchless shifts. Acceleration and deceleration in the lower gears is immediate and intense so our best bet is to be more subtle with our throttle control when shifting gears. Our throttle inputs have to be much more nuanced in the lower gears than in the higher gears. The next time you clutchless up-shift try being as subtle as possible with your partial throttle release, and when you take up the throttle again do so in the same small amount you released it. This should really smooth things out for you. Also make sure you are selecting gears quickly and definitely with the shift lever. If you are street riding and you're not at high revs this will be quite subtle. If you are at high revs then the throttle release will be a little bit bigger to unload the gearbox. I'll leave it at that to make this "short" but if you have any questions do feel free to ask. Thanks for your comment Daverr.

[@daverr8163]

Thanks for the reply and info! I’ll be sure to check out your book !.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Thanks a lot Daverr. Glad to be of assistance. Enjoy the book.

[@MrInvisiblecrayon]

i'm curious about as the dogs hit the dog holes then snap grab power wouldnt the dogs then smash against the dog holes and over time damage the gears? With the only reason the shift feeling smoother is because the shift power transfer is taken by the gearbox instead of the rear wheel?

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Great question GrandWizardBob. Good throttle input is the primary key to smooth shifting which also reduces the chance of gear dogs smashing against dog holes. For shifting to take place, torque must be reduced and resumed. For example, for a smooth clutchless upshift you will release the throttle then resume what was reduced. If you reduce the throttle by too much you're setting yourself up for a grabby snatchy shift that will smash the dogs against the dog holes as you fully release and resume throttle after a shift. For smooth dog and slot contact ( a smooth shift) the goal is to release the throttle by the smallest amount possible that will allow a gear shift. When you partially release the throttle you don't want to come even close to closing it especially if you are at a quarter or half throttle opening. This small reduction of torque also only requires a small resumption of torque allowing smooth contact between gear dogs and dog holes vs smashing if you reduce torque by too much and reflexively resume all of that reduced torque to get back on the throttle. The reduction of torque has to be small, and brief, allowing the resumption of torque to be the same, and as a result there will be no smashing of dogs into dog holes, merely contact. Shift power transfer in the gearbox will be rough if the shift is rough and will be smooth if the shift is smooth. The gearbox is full metal to metal contact with nothing to buffer--therefore steal--direct power transfer. If the shift is rough the gearbox will transmit that as a rough shift. The gearbox will fully communicate a rough shift and won't dampen excessive power transfer. A motorcycle and its gearbox is extremely communicative and rough inputs equals rough outputs and smooth inputs equals smooth outputs. If a shift feels smooth it's because it was performed well. Thanks GrandWizardBob for your question and being my first commenter on this video. If you have any more questions or have a question about my answer feel free to ask. Sorry about the late response, I'll check my comments more often to avoid that.

[@MrInvisiblecrayon]

Stephon Frazier all good mate. reply when you can. wouldn't preloading the shifter cause the dogs to rub against the gear before slotting into the dog hole? I'm just trying to determine if with my current skill level I am going to damage my gearbox or if I should wait until I feel my bike more

[@stephonfrazier5434]

GrandWizardBob That's another good question.The short answer is no.The reason why preloading the shift lever won't cause the dogs to rub against the gear before slotting into the the hole is because the quicker a shift is performed the higher the chance the dog will slot right into the hole cleanly. If the shift lever is preloaded it's guaranteed. The slots on motorcycle gearboxes are always much wider than the dogs to further increase the chance of clean dog and slot engagement. If you release throttle the slot that the gear dog will slot into also slows slightly so there isn't a big speed discrepancy between the gears.To avoid creating a big speed discrepancy between gears we have to shift gears quickly and to shift gears quickly we preload the shift lever, this gives us the highest chance of being able to shift gears the instant torque is reduced. Waiting too late to shift gears after a throttle input is what can produce the problem you mention. What is your current skill level and what type of motorcycle do you ride? I will suggest to start developing the skill as soon as you can but do it under low riding speed situations so any mistakes won't be hard on your gearbox, or make you feel bad. But also be aware your gearbox can take more than you think. Remember, with preloading the shift lever you don't have to apply massive force. Just be able to feel that the shifter lever won't move up when upshifting or down when downshifting and maintain that pressure that allowed you to feel that lever resistance and perform your throttle input, after torque is release from the throttle input the shift lever will move swiftly and completely from the pressure you maintained with your foot. I hope this helped. If you have any more questions feel free to shoot.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

If your question is referring to the dogs rubbing against the gear dog hole it's in before a gear change, the answer to that is no. The reason for that is because once a gear is selected you have torque working against a resistance. What this does is lock the gear dogs to the dog holes pressing them forcefully together. This force is much stronger than the force you can preload the shift lever with and due to that you would not be able to move the dog against the gear/dog hole it is in. It's the same as if you had to push a very heavy bin across the floor. Your hands act like the gear dog and the bin acts like the dog hole that the dogs press against when a motorcycle is in gear and moving. If someone placed their hand on your arm and tried to move your arm up or down while you are pushing this heavy load forward they would not be able to do it no matter how hard they tried. In the same way this means that the gear dogs and any shifting mechanisms won't be moving until torque is released. Shift forks won't get "side loaded" as some mistakenly believe because the shift star/cam won't move and it won't move because the gear dogs can't move due to the huge amount of force created from torque being applied to a resistance when the rider has an open or closed throttle. Now if that bin was completely empty and was as light as a cardboard box and they tried to move your arms while you were pushing it across the floor they would be able to do it since the bin offers no resistance to the force you are applying to it. What bike are you riding and what is your current skill level? Are you just starting out? Thanks for your question and if you have more feel free to keep asking.

[@MrInvisiblecrayon]

Stephon Frazier I'm on a cf Moto 650nks. been riding for just over a year. commuting to and from work so lots of heavy traffic. My main concern is long term wear especially as I'm constantly gearing up and down in traffic. your explanation is very clear. thank you :)

[@Mfteam_]

My kawasaki zx6r 2009, when i accelerate in 4th gear, sound like gear skipping their teeth. Only in 4th gear acceleration. After change the drum shift and shift fork, it is same result. All gear teeth and gear dog looks like normal. Can you help me solve this problem?

[@PopkosCZ]

Hello, firstly thank you for excelent video. Next i would like to ask you a thing, on my Kawasaki Z750 2005 i cannot learn the clutchless quickshifting. I´m getting a lot of false neutrals and only small number of tries is a shift and with a jerk, not a smooth one. So do i have to put a pressure on the gear shifter with leg and than just fast blip the throttle ( not closing it fully ) or do i have to close it fully? Thank you very much.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello PopkosCZ. Thank you so much for you question. I enjoy responding to viewer comments and questions so thank you once again for your question and interaction. The short answer is preload the shift lever and only partially close (reduce) throttle by the smallest amount necessary. Here's a more detailed answer: In order to clutchless upshift smoothly it's best to preload the gear shifter with a moderate amount of consistent pressure. This will allow immediate gear selection the instant the gearbox is unloaded. Be sure to maintain consistent pressure on the gear shifter as you perform your throttle input. If you take your foot off of the gear shifter too early, the spring loaded gear shifter will immediately reset to its starting position. When this happens it either dramatically slows or completely stops the gear selection process. This could be why you're getting false neutrals. Apply consistent pressure completely through the gear shifter's travel. You don't need to fully close the throttle to upshift. The smoothest clutchless shifts are a result of providing only what's necessary and nothing more. If you close the throttle to upshift you are providing too much input to shift because you're telling your bike to completely decelerate instead of briefly unload the gearbox, which when done with adapt skill does not physically slow the motorcycle. When you tell your bike to decelerate by completely closing the throttle and then you abruptly get back on throttle it's the same as suddenly whacking the throttle off and on. Your throttle input needs to be small, brief and sudden. The amount you'll reduce the throttle will be small, the time spent doing so will be brief and it will happen suddenly not gradually. The slower the road speed you're riding at the less you have to let off the throttle to produce a smooth clutchless upshift since you're not using the throttle's full twisting range. As an example, using arbitrary numbers, at street riding speeds you may only be using 10% of the throttle's twisting range (typically less) so you'd only need to let off 1% throttle to make a smooth shift. If you were using 100% throttle (full throttle) and wanted to make a smooth clutchless upshift you'd let off 10%. Both are partial reductions of throttle to perform smooth clutchless upshifts. Only let off a partial amount of the throttle's twisting range currently being used. PopkosCZ, I hope this helps. If you have any more questions feel free to ask. Once again thank you for your question.

[@PopkosCZ]

Thank you very much for your reply. Tommorow i´m going to try this. Awesome reply.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

You're Welcome PopkosCZ. Have fun and let me know how things go.

[@PopkosCZ]

Hi, so tried what you´ve told me to do, and i got some smooth shifts finally! But sometimes i´m putting pressure into gearlever, blip the throttle and nothing happens, is it caused by too fast blip, too slow blip, too big blip or too small blip ?

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hey, what's up PopkosCZ. When nothing happens after you reduce throttle for a clutchless upshift it's because the reduction of throttle wasn't enough (too small of a blip) to unload the gearbox. The engine was still able to drive the input shaft/gear with enough force to not allow the output shaft/gear to turn freely. This is fine as you'll simply stay in the gear you are in and will just have to reduce throttle slightly more on your second attempt. You'll tend to encounter this as you upshift to the higher gears (4th to 6th) at mid to larger throttle openings/mid to high revs. If you're just cruising around at a small throttle opening/low engine revs this doesn't come into play. As you use more of the throttle's twisting range (getting into the mid to high revs) in the higher gears, you'll need to reduce the throttle slightly more for each higher gear. Hope this helps. Let me know what else you experience while trying things out. Thanks for the update.

[@GHOSTNINJASD]

Fantastic video!

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Thanks GhostNinja.

[@joemarshall5843]

late models auto blip throttle for clutchless down shift .. but its not seemless

[@willyo7004]

does it harm more or less when I clutchless shift in low speed and low rpms? on high speeds and rpms it goes well. I ride 05 R1. Great video 👍

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Wilfred Ooyman. Thanks for your comment and question. Clutchless shifting at low speed/rpms does no harm to your gearbox. The challenge is not overdoing the throttle inputs. Providing excessive throttle input at low riding speeds is very easy to do and is why many say clutchless shifting only works (smoothly) when going fast. For low riding speeds/rpms try using less throttle input than you'd think necessary, only provide more throttle input if you couldn't shift gears. Your throttle input will be way more nuanced at slow riding speeds/low rpms than at high riding speeds/rpms.Thanks for your question Wilfred Ooyman. Let me know how that worked out

[@willyo7004]

+Stephon Frazier thnx for your answer, I think this goes both ways,up shifting and down shifting. I will let you know how it all worked out. keep your vids comming bro

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hey Wilfred Ooyman. Yes, it does go both ways shifting up and down. Looking forward to hearing how things go. Yeah, I definitely have to make more videos. Thanks for the encouragement.

[@willyo7004]

+Stephon Frazier I've tried the the clutchless shifting and it goes really well even the downshifts although I like the rev matching method better because the full akrapovic exhaust sounds really sick 😆

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hey Wilfred Ooyman. Awesome; that's great to hear the update. That's sweet that you have a full Akrapovic exhaust. I bet it does sound nice on those downshifts. I can't blame you for wanting to listen to that music. Thanks for the update Wilfred.

[@xlsmafia]

Cool video, I now get how the dog can shift "out of" a gear when letting off the gas. But how about engaging the next gear, isn't it possible that the dog teeh don't exactly match those "holes" or that the speed of those two is very different since there is no synchronizer?

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Karl Bernstein. Thank you for your compliment and question. The question you're asking is a common concern of riders but it is something that will rarely happen if proper shifting technique is followed. In the case that is does you will definitely know as you'll be hitting a solid object rather than an empty space and the noise you'll hear as a result will be hard to ignore, not only that, you will feel resistance through the shift lever as well. The space or hole that the dog teeth match to is about one and three quarters the length of the dog teeth. This greatly increases the chance that the dog teeth will always match up with the hole versus hitting the small solid portions of metal separating the holes from each other. Now lets just say that the dog teeth don't match up with the hole, well the dog teeth and dog hole (it's solid portion) would keep spinning until they matched up since everything would still be moving in the gearbox as long as you maintained pressure on the shift lever. You would feel (and hear) this as a rough shift and this typically happens as a result of being sluggish with your shift lever use or not following through the shift levers full travel. What you ask is highly unlikely to happen if you apply firm pressure (it doesn't have to be massive) to the shift lever and follow through the shift levers travel. Doing so allows you to make immediate and definitive shifts which a constant mesh sequential gearbox loves. The chances of contact happening is greater or is the result of using poor shifting technique specifically not being deliberate or following through with full shift lever travel. Dog teeth and holes are millimeters apart from each other for rapid gear changes. The truth is If you catch an edge you catch an edge but that could happen whether you use the clutch or not, because everything is still spinning regardless if you use the clutch or not. Riders are fearful that with each clutchless shift they are slowly and silently tearing their gearbox apart but this isn't the case; if the shift felt smooth then you are good if it was rough, work on your technique. The last protectant is your engine oil. It lubricates an provides some slight damping, protecting metal to metal contact and keeps things from wearing faster than it should. But learning efficient clutch and clutchless technique is the key. You also have to think about quickshifter and autoblippers that work with the electronic systems in bikes to time the fuel/ignition cut off or when it will provide fuel to perform a blip. These electronics merely provide timing cut offs and on's, because it's already known that the hole length, combined with a quick immediate shift, guarantees the dog will match with the hole. The extra length of the hole is what ensures that the dog matches up with the some portion of the hole. This is one of the things that a lot of riders are overly concerned about but is not a big problem once you realize how to greatly reduce or completely eliminate it from happening and that is through proper shifting technique, specifically how you use the shift lever, being immediate and deliberate with it's use. If you are extremely light footed and don't complete the shift lever's full travel than you open yourself up to false neutrals and misshifts which can be a result of hitting the solid sections between holes and will allow you to create speed discrepancies as you take time to correct your mistake. Also if you ever do have this happen you will know and this is how, the sound you will hear as the dog teeth try to match to the hole will be quite memorable. You beat this with immediate definitive shift lever use. If you make immediate shifts the speed difference never becomes an issue because you need time to create big speed discrepancies. For example when I had started riding on my ninja 250, one day I rolled down a hill and was coming to a stop sign. I was originally in 4th or 5th gear at about 60 mph. I pulled the clutch in, kept it pulled in and shifted to 1st gear, well when I tried to go to 1st it clanked and clacked away for a couple of seconds before the dog teeth finally matched with the hole, with a sharp snap. After hearing that I never did that again. I now understand what happened. In 1st gear a ninja 250 is only able to get to about 30 mph before you are at redline and have to shift into 2nd gear. When I was riding down that hill with the clutch pulled in, the output shaft (rear wheel/gear dog) was turning way faster than what it would to be going at 30 mph, this meant there was a huge speed discrepancy and that I had the gear dog on the output shaft spinning way faster than it should to make a gear change let alone be in 1st gear. When I was trying to shift I still had to be doing at least 45 mph or more. I would need to drop my speed well below 30 mph to make a smooth slot to hole connection. Changing down through the other gears wasn't a big issue because they could make shifts at those road speeds or even higher. Thanks for your comment and question Karl Bernstein. I hope this answers your question and if you have anymore feel free to ask.

[@xlsmafia]

Thank you very much for your in-depth reply!

[@stephonfrazier5434]

You're welcome Karl.

[@AllegedOutlaw]

Similar to clutchless shifting or rpm/rev matching in big rigs.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Cool. Thanks James Adamson.

[@trykozmaksym]

So it's easy to unload the gearbox and shift the gear. What happens next is more interesting - if it's some heavy V-twin, the difference in gear ratios is great and RPMs drop/raise not quickly enough - the whole thing appears to be very jerky... My understanding is that this technique is just for sportbikes with close ratios and light crank and flywheel and everything.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello MaxTryk. Yes, Sport-bikes ( any modern bike) definitely make it easy and are more forgiving of mistakes but that's not to say that heavy V-twins can't be shifted without the clutch smoothly. It will simply require more skill (mistakes aren't as easily forgiven) and learning the skills involved is part of the fun of riding and why I wrote my book. Learn the foundations of good shifting and it really doesn't matter the bike you ride just as long as it has a constant mesh sequential gearbox. I'll harp on this till the sky falls: it's up to the rider to develop sound technique for the bike he's riding. Don't worry about how heavy the flywheel or crank is. Learn how to shift gears properly. Stop worrying about the bike, worry about yourself. A close ratio gearbox is used to keep a bikes revs from dropping to far out of a performance bike's narrow power band. Large ratio drops still wouldn't be a problem because smooth clutch and clutch-less shifting still requires good throttle technique (throttle control) which is partial throttle inputs. Many riders lack this fundamental throttle control whether shifting with the clutch or not or if they ride a sport-bike or not. The throttle causes all of the movement in the first place and it surely can slow/stop it also. Bikes with big ratio differences have it for a reason (it still keeps the bike within it's broad power-band) and once again your throttle input plays a bigger part than than the rev difference between one gear and the next. Engineers designed the gearbox ratio's to meet/compliment the particular engine's power characteristics so that it can stay where the bike makes the most power. Most riders increase their chance of creating huge dip or spikes in power when they use the clutch to shift particularly when they increase their riding pace. If you have a heavy flywheel or crank all that heavy crank and flywheel means is that the momentum of the engine's power stroke keeps the crank going more smoothly therefore you can reason you may need a bigger throttle input to cause the reduction in torque transfer to pull off a clutch-less shift but this in no mean makes it impossible to shift smoothly. This whole conundrum of what can and can't be done can be said for a variety of things regarding a motorcycle and its setup. A sport-bike's steep steering geometry makes it super easy to steer versus a cruiser's relaxed steering geometry which makes it harder to steer at the same speed. Just because one is more difficult to pull off doesn't mean it can't be done; both can steer it's just that one requires more effort. If one isn't aware of this difference you get people saying all sorts of things and some even saying it doesn't steer right and some thinking it can't be steered at all. A rider riding the cruiser will definitely have to change the amount of force they input into the bars but having to make that change shouldn't make him/her think that steering the bike can't be done. Thanks for your comment MaxTryk.

[@trykozmaksym]

Stephon Frazier , thank you for reply. I'm afraid even the biggest throttle input - when you completely close it - will not slow down heavy engines quickly enough before the next gear is engaged.

[@MaverickX2k5]

Hey, thanks for the Video. In my opinion the video is too lengthy due to you repeating yourself a lot. Some mind find this helpful though. But it is great to get some info on this that is well reasoned and does not start with "I think it should" ^^ Quickest way for the info I was looking for however was your komment to GrandWizardBob's question. Anyways, thank you!

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hi MaverickX2k5. Thanks for your comment. Yeah, it's long. The raw version was 24 minutes and I tried to cut out as much as I could without making it seem too choppy. I do hope repeating certain concepts will help viewers understand, since it's very easy for people to hear a concept but not understand it. There's a ton of confusion regarding what takes place when clutchless shifting so I'm more than happy to emphasize. Videos being shorter is an important part to viewer retention on KZbin so I do need to get better at making my point in less time.

[@uptownsamcv]

i got pretty good with clutchless up and down shifting but lately my 2nd and 3rd gear pop out. along with that I'm getting other weird shifting symptoms.. sometimes when i shift to second it actually skips into 3rd and if i downshift into 3rd it will skip down to 2nd and if i'm lucky it will hold 2nd till redline. i also feel the lever jam sometimes when shifting between 2nd and 3rd when i have to shift gears. than i have times that i will go from 3rd to 4th and it will stay in 3rd.. so i am wondering if i have a problem with the shifting mechanism.. what sucks with my bike is that the head has to come off to split the crankcase to get to the gearbox... 2001 Honda F4i with 61,000 miles....

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Samuel Lopes. Thanks for checking out my video and thanks for your comment and question. To answer your question to the best of my knowledge and ability, yes I do believe, as you have also accurately guessed, that you have a shift mechanism problem and in particular it could be a bent shift fork(s) though I can't say for certain that it is. The grooves in the shift drum which move the shift forks laterally could also be chipped or cracked and the shift fork guide pin that fits in that groove could get caught up on the crack, which can delay a gear change not allowing the gear dog to engage in the slot fully before acceleration or deceleration torque is applied allowing the gear to pop out. Depending on if there is a big enough chip the guide pin can get caught up completely and this may cause you to stay in 3rd gear when you are trying to go to 4th gear. I'm taking particular note of the fact that you say the gears are popping out when up or downshifting between 2nd and 3rd gear. Typically on most bikes 1st--3rd gear are the gears with the highest amount of torque and 4th through 6th have less in comparison. What this means is that you have to be more deliberate with your up and downshifts as your acceleration (torque) and deceleration forces are much higher in these lower gears and if your shift lever input in not deliberate enough you are likely to experience gears popping out even with a new bike or perfectly fine shifting mechanisms. This phenomenon is particularly noticeable in 1st to 2nd upshifts or 2nd to 1st downshifts even on bikes with no shifting problems. As such, I would like to add a technique point just to make sure that it isn't a mechanical problem. You already may have tried this or already do this but I don't know for sure, so I'll put it out there. When you up or downshift don't take your foot off of the lever until you feel the lever go fully up or down, completely. You don't necessarily have to hold your foot on the lever moments after a shift is made just make sure you feel the lever go through it's full up or down motion, to the stop, when you shift gears. The shift lever has a spring on the inside of the motorcycle that allows the lever to reset when you take your foot off of the lever and the biggest cause of false neutrals or miss-shifts (gears popping out on a perfectly fine bike) is letting your foot off of the lever too early especially in lower gears at high revs on or off throttle. Letting your foot off too soon either completely stops your shift (a false neutral) or dramatically slows the gears lateral movement allowing a miss-shift. Shifts have to be definitive (not meaning more force but completing full shift lever travel) because if you take your foot off the lever too soon you can slow the gear change enough to cause a false neutral or even if the gear makes it to the slot it's not definitive though it feels like it's in and as you accelerate or decelerate in the new gear it pops out. It's very easy to love tap your shift lever and have this happen. While I doubt this may be your issue, I don't know your experience level and it's worth a try, since it is a legitimate problem with some riders and it may be able to get you through until you can have your bike looked at. If you're still having a problem after trying that then more than likely it is a shift mechanism problem. Many would probably say you have worn gear dogs but for some reason I would lean towards bent shift forks. Of course you could have severely worn dogs and bent forks and a chipped drum but if we had to take a look at your gearbox I would want to look at your forks and shift drum first. This is especially the case since you are being stopped from shifting to the next lower or higher gear, which to me indicates a fork/drum problem. I legitimately don't even consider gear dog wear an issue at this point. Any time we get false neutrals and have to force it into gear and we hear that clattering and clanking sound right before the gear engages we are increasing the likelihood of bending our shift fork(s), which can chip the shift drum groove, and unnaturally wear the gear dog. For a sport bike, your bike has quite a few miles on it. Are you the first owner of this motorcycle? How long have you been riding it? Is your shift lever set up so you don't have to go hunting for it with your foot? Does it feel natural and easy to use the shift lever for both up and downshifts? If there is a shift mechanism problem it does suck that they will have to split the engine case just to look at the gearbox. I'm surprised more manufacturers to this day don't use a cassette transmission set up on their production sport bikes. Yamaha didn't even have it on their high-tech R1M and they had a gearbox recall about a year ago. Thanks Samuel Lopes for your comment and question and I hope I was of some assistance. If you have any more questions, comments or input you know where to find me.

[@uptownsamcv]

from what I am the third owner of the bike. when i first got it i made sure to adjust the shift lever along with all the other controls. I have been riding the bike for a good year and a have and I have put a good 31,000 miles on it. I live in central Florida so i ride year round. the F4i has a real comfortable seating position cause the handlebars aren't real low like most sport bikes so I also take it on long trips... that cassette type gearbox is a nice setup. with my bike a friend of my brother said he would fix the transmission for me for a little under $1,000.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hey Samuel Lopes.That's great that you are riding the bike a lot (a whole lot) and that you live in Florida. I definitely wouldn't mind some Florida weather right now in Pennsylvania. I ride year-round commuting to work on my motorcycle unless there is way too much snow out. It's good you adjusted the controls because some people aren't aware that they can and because of that they aren't able to shift gears efficiently, causing a lot of false neutrals and miss-shifts. You being the third owner of your bike it's hard to know what the other owners were like regarding their shifting technique. We all have to learn how to shift when we start riding and that requires a little trial and error and some slight "abuse" of our gearbox in the process. With all of us learning different riding skills at a different pace some riders will be harder on certain equipment than others. Yes, the labor cost just to split the engine case to get to the gearbox is the real headache when it comes to gearbox problems on motorcycles. Though I don't work for a dealership, I will assume (and you're probably well aware) you're getting a good deal versus going to the dealership to get it fixed.The cassette type gearbox is a great convenience and more than likely in the near future will be used on more bikes. Hopefully once he takes a look there won't be many things to replace in the gearbox. Hopefully you'll be able to get back on the road as soon as possible. Thank you for your input Samuel Lopes and if get your bike fixed feel free to come back with an update if you want.

[@uptownsamcv]

im actualy still riding it. just cant use 2nd and 3rd gears. its kind of cold today..

[@fisco130]

Hello, thank you very much for this, I only have a quick question. I have a Yamaha R3 and I've read on forums and noticed myself when revmatching from 6th down to 3rd, the "blip throttle amount" is more or less the same (6th to 5th, 5th to 4th, 4th to 3th). But when I want to downshift revmatching from 3rd to 2nd it requires a little bit more of throttle to make a clean shift compared with the upper gears. Why is this?

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Fisco 130. Thanks for your comment and question. The reason why 3rd to 2nd requires a little bit more throttle to make a clean shift compared to the upper gears is that 3rd gear requires the engine to spin at higher rpms than the upper gears for the same road speed. You need this increased throttle blip to unload 3rd gear completely since that gear turns the engine at a higher rate of speed thus the increased throttle blip to interrupt the high speed the engine is turning at with a closed throttle to make a clean shift. You may also find that going from 2nd to 1st also requires a little bit more throttle blip to make a clean shift. On most production motorcycles 1st thru 3rd gear offer the high torque necessary to get the motorcycle up to reasonable speed, while 4th thru 6th gear take over to offer the highest road speeds. Gears always trade off either torque for speed or speed for torque. This has an interesting effect when up and downshifting. When upshifting you may notice that when you are in 4th gear going to 5th--and even 5th to 6th--that you have to reduce throttle more than you would when upshifting from 1st thru 3rd gear. Since you are multiplying speed as you go up the gearbox (specifically output gear speed) you will need to reduce throttle more to interrupt the high speed the output gear/rear wheel is turning at with an open throttle to unload the gearbox to make a clean shift. When you downshift this phenomenon reverses where the lower gears produce the speed and the higher gears produce the torque when the throttle is closed, thus you needing more throttle blip to make a clean shift in the lower gears. I hope this answers your question Fisco 130 and if you have any more please feel free to ask. Once again thanks for your comment and question.

[@sleepysmurf]

Your output shaft is connected to your... backbone! Your backbone connected to your... hey this sounds familiar. ;)

[@g.bergervoet4505]

This will actually damage your gearbox. The reason it feels smoother is that the power curve is more linear compared to shifting with the clutch. Use the clutch, or be prepared to pay those repair bills lol.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hi Von Bergerfurth. Obviously I disagree but there is a way to efficiently use the clutch to shift gears so do what you will, it's up to the rider to choose. Many riders don't use the clutch efficiently and that can cause problems (traction, engine and clutch) in itself. And as far as safety and traction goes the more linear the power curve the better, instead of leaving big holes and spikes which is common for riders who use the clutch inefficiently. Efficient clutch and clutchless shifting is what I'm teaching and both do no harm. While I have my preference I can go either way.

[@g.bergervoet4505]

Stephon Frazier it will undeniably cause harm to the dog-teeth and recesses. You may disagree, but you are still wrong :) thanks for your reply.

[@g.bergervoet4505]

@Zikri sup

[@g.bergervoet4505]

@Zikri Poor gearbox though

[@kevinstearns4198]

i dont use the clutch on my kx 250. one video the workshop says it fuks up the transmission. who knows. i guess the riders would know better.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Kevin Stearns. Yeah, it is ultimately up to the rider to decide what technique they want to use when riding their bike. There is information out there and it's up to the rider to search for it, think about it and relate it to their experience and decide to go one way or the other or go between both whenever they feel the need. Thanks for the comment Kevin Stearns.

[@killer2600]

I only trust the opinion of someone willing to pay to fix my transmission if it breaks from following their advice. Otherwise their opinion has no merit or backing that punishes them for giving bad advice and protects me from following their advice. As for books, anyone can publish a book on anything these days. You don't have to be a respected mind in your field or rich to make and sell a book.

[@djmystery7235]

So just preload with the gas on and keep pulling till I let go of the throttle and it should shift up

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Dj Mystery. You don't have to keep pulling on the shift lever. Rather, you should load the lever with a set amount of force. Pull up on the lever and maintain that force. Don't reduce or increase force, though if you have to err, err on the side of increasing for that way you can secure a shift. Thank you for your question Dj Mystery. If you have anymore feel free to ask.

[@MarcusYangNilsson]

Why is this not taught at mc-school?

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Great question Marcus Yang-Nilsson. I always wondered the same myself.

[@laddaevolta]

Marcus Yang-Nilsson it is not an immediate skill you need to ride a bike. School mostly focus on road safety.

[@disarray0921]

Because it's WRONG. THIS GUY DIDN'T EVEN GO TO SCHOOL!!!!HE EVEN ADMITTED HE NEVER WENT TO SCHOOL.

[@mattfoley6082]

Holy crap the volume is annoying.

[@thesh1ttygamer960]

I had my volume all the way up, could barely hear a thing...

[@phoverph]

shit lern to do it in a car drive a car whit a snapped cable ore loss off fluid in a car you have to rev match coss their not straight cut gears is easy a bike you can mash them in

[@mattman3495]

People don't do this it causes damage.

[@disarray0921]

You act like when you let off the throttle to upshift or blip while slowing down that your actually fast enough to nail that dog in before there's no load on it!! Those large wheels spinning those tiny gears, is happening at several thousand revolutions a minute !!! (that's your RPM) EVEN IF YOU MANAGE TO SLOW THE GEARS DOWN TO 1 THOUSAND REVOLUTIONS PER minute , that's still spinning at several hundred mph!! Now your telling me your going to tap it into gear while the "dog" is dead center, with no load for that millisecond?? No. There's still load. It won't destroy your gears right away. It will last awhile if done as instructed, however, the end result is still the same. Your causing unnecessary wear and tear on your gears. There's a reason why they install "quickshifters" and "autoblippers" on the newer bikes. You can also purchase a quick shifter (for up shifting) and a auto blipper (for down shifting) to install on your bike as an aftermarket part. They would not make these parts or use them on all the new bikes if you didn't need them. Especially considering these bikes are track focused. Which means if they didn't need them, they would not use them and SAVE MORE WEIGHT. Ps it feels smooth, because there is no interruption from the clutch input, allowing a consistent load on your rear tire.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

It's not required that you get the dog into the slot dead center. The inside of gear dogs and slots are smooth, because from time to time there will be contact. They are smooth so they slide right off of each other and as long as a definitive shift is made (move the shift lever through it's full travel quickly) there will be no issue with wear and tear any more than if you used the clutch. Whether you use the clutch or not the gears are still spinning at speed even when you disengage the clutch. With a disengaged clutch now the load is coming from the rear wheel. They have quickshifters and autoblippers because it saves racers concentration to be applied to go even faster and are more consistent than any skilled rider. Electronic shift technology does the same thing you and I could do on a motorcycle without it. No bike needs it. It started as another edge racers used to go faster, not save their gearboxes from feared wear and tear.

[@F-14_Jockey]

Your explanations are lacking... I'm an engineer and you didn't talk about the power path through the trans. You said "input shaft"- "output shaft"... that 50 cents will buy coffee.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Jim Fogarty. I showed the power path.

[@MrFroggyMan]

There's a clutch for a reason

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello DobbieR. Yes, you are right, the clutch is there for a reason. The clutch allows a rider to separate the engine from the rear wheel. This allows the engine to keep running independent of a stopped rear wheel preventing the engine from stalling or making the rider manually stop the engine, by turning off the ignition or using the kill switch. It would be inconvenient to have to stop the engine--and then have to restart it--every time a rider pulled up to a stop light/sign. If you want to use the clutch for shifting go right ahead (but it wasn't invented/designed for the purpose of shifting). Both techniques are valid because efficient clutch and clutchless shifting are one and the same. I do have a question to pose to you and anyone else who may read the comments for information. I'm not looking for you to answer this, it's just food for thought for you and comment readers: Why do quick-shifters and auto-blippers work with the bikes ecu and not the clutch to perform clutchless up and downshifts? Why isn't there a special type of gearbox that has to be put into a motorcycle to be able to perform clutchless up and downshifts vs the standard constant mesh sequential transmission that is in every motorcycle? Thank you for your comment Doobie R. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Mike Grady. Marc Marquez is slipping the clutch in this video so it necessitates that he uses the clutch to downshift on his moto2 motorcycle. He does not blip the throttle at all in sequence with his clutch pull in this video. If you are not familiar with clutch slipping technique for downshifting it is used by some riders who feel blipping compromises their braking (and it can if your not practiced) so instead of blipping the throttle they simply pull the clutch in and slowly release it to blend the engine speed to road (rear wheel) speed. Here is a link to a video that I hope helps you understand the electronic blipping function better. Motogp have the seamless gearbox which has two gear momentarily engaged at the same time before one fully takes over. This was not a factory team they were talking to so they were still using electronic shifting. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqucnHihhMuYotk

[@mikegrady4]

Stephon Frazier, to be in 2 gears at the same time means that 1 has to be disconnected. They do this with dual clutch transmissions. That's not how the MotoGP transmissions work. (Or any motorcycle transmissions I have ever seen) In order for the engine to rev freely, it must be disconnected from the drive wheel. It can do that by being in neutral or having the clutch activated. The only other way is for something in the system to break. The computer controlled rev match still requires that the clutch be pulled. It can not operate if the engine is not disconnected from the drive wheel....otherwise, the bike would encounter unintended acceleration. That stated, no one here rides a MotoGP bike......yet even they still use the clutch...all of them.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Mike Grady. Regarding the seamless transmissions that MotoGP riders use: www.sportrider.com/how-seamless-transmissions-work kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5WUf4WNgJ6jq7M kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3bGhXyHhs9_qas While both gears are "engaged" they are not both transmitting power. One gear is still transmitting power while the other one is starting to take it up. As that gear is taking up power the other one is disengaging. So no, two gears aren't giving power through one shaft at the same time and the "simultaneous engagement" is exceptionally brief. It's a transition period of one giving while the other is getting: When you have a closed throttle can't you roll on? The obvious answer is yes. If you wanted to you could wack the throttle and have the bike rocket forward (revs). You don't have to have the engine disconnected from the drive wheel to rev. If you want to be able to rev your bike freely to any revs you want that's a different story but we are talking about revving to downshift and how many revs do you need to do that? Not many. You need a small, brief and sudden increase of the throttle. That's why it's called a blip. You can blip with the gears engaged with a preloaded shift lever. The computer controlled rev match does not require the clutch to be pulled in. He even says in the video riders can shift without using the clutch. No one on a factory bike uses the clutch to downshift. They have the seamless transmission for up and downshifts.

[@mikegrady4]

Stephon Frazier, wait a second.....this isn't the style of set-up is used in normal bikes. In your video you have a standard dog style transmission.....so GP style doesn't apply. The reason I mentioned GP riders is because they use their clutch while riding.....extensively.

[@mikegrady4]

I have been through multiple motorcycle based dog style transmissions. The gear dogs and forks wear massively. The following video shows exactly what happens: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYaxp4uEbKuAkJY Enjoy

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Mike Grady. Thank you for your comment. In that video the gearwheel and fork is from a go-kart that doesn't have a clutch, according to the speaker. I don't know anything about the mechanics involved with a clutchless go-kart but I will definitely not make a comparison between one and a motorcycle gearbox. If parts wear massively it is due to poor technique. Many riders have to remember that today's modern motorcycle (sportbikes) come with electronic quick shifters for clutchless up and downshifts. These quick-shifters adjust the fueling to provide the throttle dip for upshifts and blip for downshifts without doing anything with the clutch. A rider without these electronic aids would use the throttle to get the same effect. The benefit with the electronics is that it is 100% consistent which a human isn't. Timing is a big issue when shifting with and without the clutch an is a major reason for all the debate regarding shifting. Many people think there is a special type of gearbox put in to perform these electronically initiated clutchless up and downshift or that it is disengaging the clutch but it is nothing mechanical at all it is all electronic signals to the bikes fueling system and that's it. The actual gearbox in these new bikes are exactly the same as what is in a bike just a few years old without the electronic assist shifting. Thanks Mike Grady for you comment.

[@mikegrady4]

Stephon Frazier, the shifter karts have clutches. The speaker is not correct. They only use them to get moving and full power upshifts. They just slam them into a given gear on downshifts for the most part. 125s are typical for shifter karts but in some of the open classes, they run 450s or exotic 250 twin 2 strokes. 125s are babies on transmissions compared to engines putting nearly 100 hp to the ground. If a MX style 125 can do what you saw, imagine what the larger bikes are capable of. Long story short, it is basicly the same design as every other motorcycle. Yes, any time you remove load from the powertrain, you minimize the impact loads on the gear dogs. That is essentially what happens when the clutch lever is pulled in, throttle is closed, or an ignition interrupt is triggered on an equipped bike....that is unless you are downshifting a loaded transmission and you use the decelerating engine to provide engine braking. The bottom line, unloading the powertrain is the only way to minimize the carnage that occurs when a gear change is performed on any transmission. If there is any load, improperly adjusted or actuated clutch, improperly adjusted ignition interrupt, or poorly operated throttle, the force at which the dogs engage will be highly magnified. As the load goes up, so does the impact and frictional forces. The shift fork damage is due to frictional forces while the gear dog damage is due to impact forces.

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hey Mike Grady. That's why it is important for riders to learn proper clutchless shifting technique. That's why I wrote the book. So much false assumptions have been made about the damage that can occur from performing this or that technique when people do bother to understand how to really perform proper technique. Efficient clutchless and clutch shifting are one and the same. The more people understand the concepts behind it the more they'll realize how true this statement is. This not only spreads to shifting gears but a lot of other riding techniques regarding braking, steering, lean angle, body position etc. The more you ride the more you find out that it's not what you do that gets you in trouble on a motorcycle or cause damage to a bike it is how you do it. We have to take the time to find out if what's bad is really bad and why and then find out if people are even doing it correctly in the first place. Thanks for your comment Mike Grady.

[@mikegrady4]

Stephon Frazier, I am not aware of any motorcycles that blip the throttle on downshifts. How would they accomplish this?

[@stephonfrazier5434]

Hello Mike Grady. It's typically the late edition sportbikes that have this. A couple of years ago it was an added upgrade feature, but now it's coming stock off the showroom floor for most of the late model sport bikes, and in 2 to 3 years I think the most common motorcycle will have the technology and there is also the option to turn if off on at least the Kawasaki as far as I can recall. Off the top of my head: the zx10rr, the bmw 1000rr and the late model ducati sportbikes come stock with these and so does the Suzuki gsxr 1000r. I think for the Yamaha R1M it's an additional upgrade.along with the R6 as a race kit package. The blip feature works with the ecu which controls the fuel injection allowing the fuel injectors to inject fuel into the cylinder when pressure is applied to the shift lever when the rider has the throttle closed.

[@Houstonruss]

Just like an 18 wheeler haha just 15 or so less gears :)

[@stephonfrazier5434]

LOL.

[@joemarshall5843]

not seemless ,, google zero shift .. shifting down you are better to use clutch on std bike tranny ,,, dirt bikes theres no drive to road really so can jam into gear