How Did Nobody See This Coming?

Young James Harden was a superstar in hiding, and the 2012 Thunder are forever etched in history as one of basketball’s greatest what-ifs.
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[@WitnesstotheCrime]

I didn’t know Harden would become MVP Harden eventually, but I knew he was All Star caliber and that trading him for Kevin freaking Martin was the end of a potential championship team.

[@bsn0730]

The Harden trade was baffling at the time... this video does a great job of highlighting why it was such a big deal

[@jlui21]

-- in retrospect, of course. But OKC had WB and KD with a mobile big in Ibaka. That's a nice Big 3 with little money to spare for Harden. Plus, the game kept changing with Steph extending the 3pt line. For me, it's crazy that OKC drafted THREE future MVPs.

[@joejett5084]

I always thought they should of moved harden to the point or at least trade Westbrook for CP3.

[@JimBob-jr5up]

Nonsense. Yall have to stop trying to alter history. At the time the salary issue made sense and btw, he would have made more than KD and Russ, while they where still trying to fill out like 6 positions and still really wanted that 20/10 low post center. He was a sixth man at this point. Everyone knew he was going to be a great player but no one saw the MVP we ended up seeing. Us OKC fans didnt see it. Rockets fans didnt see it. Commentators didnt see it, hell, before he played for the Rockets, half of tge analysts had OKC winning the trade. STOP trying to alter history. You know who regrets the Harden trade as much as OKC? The Wizards for first accepting then declining the Beal for Harden trade.

[@JimBob-jr5up]

​​@@joejett5084 1. At that time CP3 would have cost a whole lot more than just Russ. 2. Harden was and is a SG.... always has been. He's the type of guard you put Derick Fisher next to. Not CP3. 3. I really wanted to see Ben Simmons get sent to the Rockets for CP3 while they still had Dantoni. Harden and Simmons.... simmons in Dantonis system would be a better Amare...... Harden and Simmons would have been a better Nash-Amare. Not to mention cp3-jj-butler-embiid would be scary.

[@joejett5084]

@@JimBob-jr5up 🎯🎯🎯🎯

[@seansachs6105]

Early James Harden film is really interesting to me because there are times when you can see his modern-day self (that tension between the catch & shoot 3 and drive is similar to the one between his stepback & drive later on, & the blended read to the dunker's spot is a staple of his as well), but there are also times where he looks significantly different. He was thinner & quicker from 2012-14 & utilized more off-ball movement, with most of the on-ball stuff being in transition or against second units. Some of this is also rule-change related, as the spacing wasn't quite as wide as it is today and the foul-drawing & officiating hadn't gotten anywhere near where it would by 2018-2020. Harden's one of the most interesting players to look at imo because of this, and I love that you made this video.

[@BrothaGoneBased]

Beautiful basketball comment lol. Yea while 2017-2020 harden was a supernova of offense, there's so much to his game here, that if he'd stay with this team and won we'd definitely look back more fondly on these years. His anticipation and patience for a 6 man was crazy.

[@HoopVenue]

Agree with everything said here, well done!

[@JimBob-jr5up]

If you really want your mind blown watch his OKC years and pay attention to his defense..... he was actually a good defender.

[@seansachs6105]

That sounds really interesting.@@JimBob-jr5up

[@anamethattellsastory6648]

Qq⁰

[@eazymb.]

I saw it coming as a 13 year old watching the finals. Remember wondering why Sefelosha in the game so much and why was Westbrook running the offense in general instead of just being a high usage 2-guard. They were obsessed with making this dude Ginobili. That Harden trade was crazy news to read on the computer. Mostly cause OKC didn’t want to go over the cap to pay him. That reasoning baffles me to this day.

[@shorewall]

For real, they could have amnestied Perkins to avoid the Luxury tax altogether! They just have a cheap ass owner. Wanna bet that this modern OKC team goes through the same thing, where they trade away some of their young stars to stay below the Cap?

[@khalil8391]

People saw it coming, I remember the Harden is better than Westbrook shouts in 2012

[@HoopVenue]

Agreed, but I don’t think most knew the extent. Imagine telling someone in 2012 that Harden would end up averaging 36-7-8 💀

[@32MattyB]

I remember my buddy would tell Me harden right now (at that time) is the best player on that team because he was playing defense, could pass and shoot and finish at the time.

[@isaactesfaye9760]

Manu and harden are very similar. James showed all the signs that he could become a offensive great but started as an off ball/on ball hybrid who can shoot and pass well. Manu was the same, great shooter, elite vision, crafty, elusive, gave his whole heart on defense(unlike harden) but his whole career he stayed on a team where it wasn’t built around him. Manu scaled his game to fit the team for success but if he was on a team built around him he could’ve been an mvp because all the skills and intangibles were clearly there.

[@HoopVenue]

100% agree, Ginobili is one of the most underrated players in NBA history, his impact on San Antonio's dynasty can't be overstated.

[@frz_-]

@@HoopVenueIs there any reason for why Spurs benched Manu instead of starting him over Tony other Manu being more willing take the 6th man role? Was it Manu's ability to better facilitate for 2nd units or wanting to hide Tony's defense with Duncan in the starting lineup?

[@henry7486]

nah he wouldn’t have been an MVP but he definitely would have been a perennial all-star

[@notperfect101]

I think there's probably a lot of potential superstars in the league that just never get to play the main role and so they never take that last step. Just 2 examples from last season: Mikal Bridges and Lauri Markannen have become main guys in their new teams. If you think about it, probably the vast majority of NBA players have been the main option in all their youth teams before coming into the league and then had to adjust to other roles. Probably not everyone can do it but I'm sure there are a lot of hidden what-ifs in the league.

[@HoopVenue]

Jalen Brunson was another who had statistical signals similar to what he did in New York when he was on the floor without Luka. One to keep an eye on in the 25 games w/o Ja: Desmond Bane.

[@sabrifilms198]

Cam Thomas is an absolute bucket but he never gets minutes

[@talestomazalves8089]

Shows how versatile of a player Harden is. Great video!

[@jaredanderson53]

The okc big 3: 3 MVPs, 9 Scoring Titles, 5 Assist Titles, 2 50-40-90 Seasons, 4 Triple-Double Seasons, Rookie of the year, 6th Man of the year, 3 of the top 25 all time Scorers. 2 of the top 20 all time assists leaders. 2 of the top 25 all time 3-point field goal scorers.

[@ShareefusMaximus]

So what should be understood is that the way James harden played in Houston is how Daryl Morey asked him to. He can play any style. The same is true for Mike D'Antoni ALL of his teams took a lot of mid range jumpers except his Houston team. Daryl didn't want that.

[@tohot4659]

great breakdown! I agree with alot of what harden was capable of doing at that stage already.

[@dimelo58]

Great breakdown man!

[@HoopVenue]

Appreciate it!

[@lukenasty4159]

Great break down

[@y2shuproblem]

If they kept Harden and paid him, they would've been a dynasty. It's still mind baffling why they didn't want to pay him.

[@561madebo3]

Russ and kd vid next please maybe start doin duos that would be interesting. But thanks for doin one of my favorite players. Lobe your content!

[@NewDave]

With all the emphasis on big 3's in that era, it's absurd that they didn't go all out to keep Harden. They would have dominated

[@shorewall]

For real, Lebron just made his big 3, it was all the rage. They had one already? Just a cheap ass owner. I wanna know if it happens again in OKC?

[@tabithadavid606]

Wow, this video has made me sad. I don't think I've ever felt as strongly as while watching this that Harden has underachieved TREMENDOUSLY and we should have seen more greatness from him.

[@BoolatGuzairov]

The key condition to become an MVP is having enough opportunities on-ball. So you basically can’t have enough on-ball duties for 3 good players (2 at max, rather 1 have a big advantage over 2nd) - for any team & any players. So despite maybe the average return for OKC, Harden or Westbrook won’t be on the current historical level.

[@shorewall]

But maybe they would have some rings...

[@elizahhoward6810]

I remember thinking at the time they might be the next dynasty then they had to battle the warriors for top spot if they had harden I’d give them a better chance

[@gold6813]

Saw it coming a mile away. Even then people were criticising Westbrook from taking bad shots and not feeding it to the more efficient KD

[@nbapbaupdate8338]

Jaylen Brown your next video Hoop Venue 😤😤😤😤😤😤

[@Kthron]

IIRC the OKC owner simply refused to pay for Harden, and Presti had no choice in the matter

[@shorewall]

Cheap ass owner, for sure. They could have signed him and just gone into the Luxury Tax, or they could have amnestied Kendrick Perkins and had enough room to sign Harden without going into the Tax. No GM would trade away a young star when you have the power to sign him. Only terrible owners care more about money than winning. And it will happen again with this new Thunder Team. Just wait.

[@skinneybob4984]

Alg fuel. We miss u on twitter btw

[@HoopVenue]

Thanks brother!

[@JOHNNYPMUSIC]

Great vid HV! Quick question 21 Steph or 16 Steph? and why?

[@HoopVenue]

16 without an ounce of doubt, significantly more agile and lighter on his feet, change of direction allowed him to create 3s/layups more effectively, and I think he was a better shooter then.

[@gilbertveneyjr1575]

@@HoopVenue Looking at dunksandthrees EPM, Steph does rank better in 2016 -- 10.5 vs 2016 -- 6.7 but his per-possession stats and shooting splits are fairly similar. It seems more that the league caught up to Steph and the Warriors by incorporating more shooting and offensive movement so his play has less of an impact on how much the Warriors outscore opponents. In 2016 he did rate better as a defender: +1.3 vs -0.8 and his steal rate which was 97th percentile in 2016 is now down to 63th percentile. This does lend credence to the idea he's lost some agility. Great video, by the way!

[@HoopVenue]

I definitely agree with your point that changes around the league and further experience defending Steph definitely play a role, well said!@@gilbertveneyjr1575

[@Ixodiusixi]

the NBA was denied a possible super team , such a bad call by management. Oklahoma deserved better.

[@rexbigornia9519]

Ibaka was the reason they didn't keep Harden. At the time Ibaka was much more needed piece because he provided much interior defense and some outside scoring. They have sign Ibaka and they cant have them together because of salary cap; they could've but their bench would've been thinned out.

[@shorewall]

Wrong, they could have signed Harden and went over the cap, and had to pay the Luxury tax. They didn't want to because they were cheap, even though teams that want to win pay the tax without a thought. The new 2nd apron wasn't even a dream back then. The real sad thing is that they had the amnesty clause, where they could cut one player's contract from the cap books. They could have amnestied slow Kendrick Perkins $10 million last year of his contract, and stayed under the cap while giving Harden his $22 million yearly max contract. And the reason they didn't do this is because, once again, they were cheap. Team would still have to pay Perkins contract, but it wouldn't count against the cap. If you have KD, Westbrook, and Harden, you could have 2 of the 3 out there at any time, and this video shows that even 1 of them could be great on the court with the others. Throw in Ibaka, and you have a core that can win championships, plural. Use your MLE on role players over time, and you will win for a decade. The owners of OKC stole the team from Seattle, because they didn't want to pay for a new stadium. They then traded a future MVP, and watched another MVP walk out on them. They are heating up now with young talent and tons of picks, but the owners are the same. I expect something similar, shedding talent in favor of profit.

[@Retiredhandle]

I see where you were going but baby Harden could only do so much with Thunder legend Nick Collison at the time

[@55404x]

4:34 oof, I guess he's always been getting away with stuff like this

[@tonytaylor4472]

What harden had going on don’t fly in okc it was not reported in media but joked about with subtle comments

[@chronicle_4]

Thunder prioritized Westbrook cause they saw DRose won MVP. In their mind, they have their own version DRose. Ibaka was prioritized as well and as the GM put it, he has a unique skill that can't be found on the draft while they saw Harden as simply as a scorer and 3rd option. Was really mad they traded Harden away at the start of the season because they only offered 50Mil, while Harden demands 58 something. That penny pinching haunts them back till now. This is the biggest what if's, in the NBA. If they just kept Harden, they could have a couple of championships already. And also, they suck , cause they are so loyal with Scotty Brooks who has no idea and has no business coaching.

[@shorewall]

They didn't want to pay the Luxury tax, cheap ass owners. But they could have amnestied Kendrick Perkins $10 million last year of his contract, and signed Harden while staying under the cap. Fact is the owners of OKC stole the team from Seattle because they didn't want to pay for a new stadium, traded away a future MVP because they didn't want to pay him, and watched another MVP walk out on them to a conference rival. I expect Giddy and others to get traded to keep them under the cap now as well. Owners like that don't deserve to own a team.

[@chronicle_4]

@@shorewall amen. Clay Bennett lied and stole the Sonics. Thunder is cursed until Seattle gets its team back. Also, good point on Perks fat contract.

[@BUD-TV]

Maybe OKC knew early that Harden catches stage fright 😱

[@JimBob-jr5up]

Give me a break. NO ONE saw Harden turning into the MVP he did. Everyone knew he was a bonified star, maybe franchise guy or barely below. But no one saw what he became coming and dont pretend like anyone did. I remember even Rockets fans, before he played, most liked him but didnt think he'd be "that guy".

[@nenengsworld803]

But for me there were the next san antonio but then again the trade went in that's why it didn't happened

[@StraightHoops-tf6su]

Yooooo, HV right D Book or Jimmy Butler, and why.

[@snupedummy]

Generational player

[@user-dj4wf8so8t]

4:00 "a couple lengthy strides" - you mean an obvious travel that isn't called? He got farther in those strides than Giannis at a full run. LOL

[@Crill835]

I will never sway from the opinion that if OKC traded Westbrook instead of Harden, OKC would have a chip, and I like Russ more than James

[@shorewall]

I will never sway from the opinion that they didn't have to trade either one. They could have had KD, Russ, Harden, and Ibaka. But the owners were too cheap and didn't want to go into the tax. Maybe that's why they didn't have enough help, even after Harden was traded. And I expect it to happen again with this new Thunder team as well.

[@Posesso]

Gold

[@ryanshearer5653]

Who taught Kendrick Perkins how to set a screen?

[@HoopVenue]

Kwame Brown.

[@shorewall]

Perkins is the guy they chose over James Harden. Or rather, his one year $10 million contract they they refused to amnesty in order to sign Harden and stay under the Luxury Tax. Or they could have just signed Harden and paid the Damn Luxury Tax, like any team that cares about winning. OKC has a terrible owner, and I expect this to happen again.

[@CashKiinG]

🔥🔥🍿🔥🔥

[@him37404]

PAC 10 player of the year twice I believe … duhh

[@frankenviews4069]

The 3 were just a bad fit with their skill sets and personalities. OKC should have traded Harden and Westbrook sooner for a true pass first point guard (Cp3 type) who can defend and strong defensive center (Gobert type).

[@shorewall]

What a terrible take. Lebron's Big 3 in Miami were arguably a worse fit, and they won 2 finals and went to 4. OKC could have dominated the 2010s.

[@dbartholemewfox]

The craziest part about watching these old highlights is that Harden still flops blatantly on every play, only the refs don't reward him with foul calls. He had to go to Houston and sell more jerseys before refs decided to give him 11 free throws per game.

[@RRTRUCK38]

flopped his way to 65 wins & an MVP cry about it

[@RRTRUCK38]

would've had a chip if CP3s hamstring never gave out in the wcf

[@andrecambridge4474]

You can also make this about his strip club habit lol

[@VinceLyle2161]

Harden was never going to evolve into who he's become on a team with Russell Westbrook on it. OKC traded the wrong guy. It should have been Russ who left. He was too alpha for that team. Harden could be the playmaker who made KG look terrific while still getting his points. And who knows what OKC could have gotten for prime Russell Westbrook?

[@140acresretired7]

When did he start flopping?

[@Chef_curry_30.]

2021 playoffs

[@LEV4ZOID]

So why they sucked while in Oklahoma??

[@jamesflanagan7693]

Sucked? They made it to the Finals in 2012, lol!

[@LEV4ZOID]

but did not olajuwin a championship

[@Icytf]

free kgsgoat

[@karl-heinzjean-francois8554]

Great break down

[@HoopVenue]

Glad you enjoyed!