How did they decide if a Qur'an version was canonical?

[@chrisazure1624]

I had an online discussion with a Muslims still holding onto the "Only one Quran" myth. It was embarrassing. He had some canned answer to things I was not bringing up, but could not address the issue I spoke about, just deflect, distract and attack.

[@talisupremacy7176]

It's pretty much always like this. They like to pretend to be muslim without any knowledge about the religion.

[@chrisazure1624]

@Flat Sky Muslims have made claims that the Quran is perfectly preserved and not one word or letter has been changed. That is a lie that ignores the evidence. They never had a standard until later. That has been well preserved but not perfectly.

[@chrisazure1624]

@@talisupremacy7176 I don't think they are pretending. They seem to be told the Quran is true, but make no efforts to support that assertion, just believe. However, they do seem to teach polemics against Christianity. Their faith seems more anti-Christianity vs pro-Islam.

[@talisupremacy7176]

@@chrisazure1624 Yeah they claim to hold the quran as true. But have no knowledge of what is actually in there. Often what they personally beleive, is in opposition to the quran. Those people are not muslim.

[@chrisazure1624]

@@talisupremacy7176 They certainly are ignorant of their own religion and sources in many ways. They know what is taught to them, but few pursue to understand for themselves. They claim to be Muslims and engage in the cult. They may be misinformed, but I believe they are what they claim.

[@blackjack8043]

He's certainly right about Tabari. Tabaris Tafsir contains many statements arguing against certain recitations by the 7. He even deemed one of the readings all-together, the reading of Ibn Amir as completely erroneous in origin.

[@gramaniguna]

can u pl tell us - is there any book by tabari other than his tafsir and the history ?

[@alfiras8604]

Where exactly did Al Tabari say the reading of Ibn 'Āmir is "completely erroneous in origin"? His main criticism that I am aware of is attributing the reading to 'Uthmān b. Affān through al Mughīrah, while acknowledging that his reading is "the reading of the people of Syria", and this is what he reports that Ibn 'Āmir did - ascribe his reading to the people and not one specific person.

[@blackjack8043]

@@alfiras8604 "Some people have claimed that Ibn Amir received his Qira'a from Al-Mughira b. Abi Shihab Al-Makhzumi, and that the latter studied the Quran with Uthman. However, such a matter was not known about Uthman, and we are not familiar with anyone who claimed to have read/studied the Qur'an with him. Indeed, we only know of a few [individual variant] readings reported on behalf of Uthman. Moreover, had Al-Mughira dedicated time and effort to study the Qur'an with Uthman, as the transmitter of the report claimed, other Muslims would have also studied with Uthman, especially some of his relatives and close ones, for they had priority and precedence over Al-Mughira. Thus it is erroneous to claim that Al-Mughira read the Qur'an with him. On top of that, the transmitter of that report was an unknown individual who went by the name of Irak b. Khalid. He is considered to be an unknown entity within the hadith community, where the only person who transmitted from him was Hisham b. Ammar". I should of course clarify that you are right about it being the reading of the Syrians, however I was referring to the fact that he did not believe this reading went to Muhammad through a sound Chain of narration and that the origin to him is "erroneous , something which he was slammed for heavily after the canonisation by others like Jazari.

[@alfiras8604]

@@blackjack8043 Yes, I was referring to the same quote of Al Tabari. That does not mean he considered the origin of his reading "erroneous", it means claiming *Uthman is the origin of his reading* is erroneous. Almost all the other readers are in a similar situation, there is not one reader where I can say his entire reading was read exactly the same by Companion A, who read exactly the same as Companion B, who read exactly the same as the Prophet. All of the readers constructed their readings from various teachers, who did *not* all read the exact same way. For example, Nāfi' is reported to have constructed his reading from various readers of the people of Madinah, over 70 according to one report. This means we can't impose a specific isnād onto his reading (ie. to claim that that every single one in the chain read the same way). So Ibn 'Āmir constructed his reading from various people of Syria. This does *not* mean the origin of his reading is erroneous, it means he (like other readers) had many teachers or many sources, that ultimately trace back to the Prophet. This doesn't mean every single variant traces back to the Prophet of course, but that can be said for *any* reader, not just Ibn 'Āmir. To say this means the origin of his reading is erroneous is ridiculous as Ibn 'Āmir did not actually claim that 'Uthman is the origin of his qirā'ah. And yes, scholars like Al Dāni, did refute Al Tabari regarding this. The source of his quote that I am aware of, actually quoted Al Tabari, just to refute it. I do agree with Al Tabari here, but he is not saying the origin of his qirā'ah is erroneous.

[@alfiras8604]

@@gramaniguna Yeah, there is his (now lost) book on qirā'āt, documenting more readers other than the 7. One of his main sources for this is Abū 'Ubayd's (d. 224 AH) book of qirā'āt (also lost). Some excerpts from these books have survived though.

[@thomaspaul5989]

In short.... *" THE STANDARD NARRATIVE HAS HOLES IN IT...."*

[@sulaimankhan3457]

no not a single word. see structure of Quran.

[@thomaspaul5989]

@@sulaimankhan3457 Structure? That's all in your brainwashed mind. The book is full of bullsh!t and nonsense.

[@sulaimankhan3457]

@@thomaspaul5989 I know what is bullshit and blah blah blah. I have read and re-read all relgion of world and stanic cults, athesim, new age cults, science and philosophy. And i am proud that i am follower of a true relgion. There is no hole in Quran and it is truth. what u are refering is language of different arab tribal variation.

[@thomaspaul5989]

@@sulaimankhan3457 You've "read and re-read" as a biased Muslim, therefore your mind is blinded. Let's examine your claim for a bit. The Koran has a criteria to test its authenticity, but it fails its it's own criteria miserably. [4.82] "...Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy..." Here is a list of only some of your fake god Allah's blunders that are huge discrepancies enough for any one with even two brain cells to reject. Please take some time to examine these. These discrepancies alone should totally obliterate Islam as a false man-made religion. Here goes.... 1. Sperm originates from between the backbone and the ribs? 2. Flesh grows on the skeletal bones of a fetus in the womb? 3. Meteors are missiles that are shot at eavesdropping djins? 4. The trillions of galaxies and their stars are all located in the lowest heavens, while our own son and moon are in the middle of these seven heavens? 5. The "sky" is held up by invisible pillars? 6. There are mountains in the sky that rain down hail? 7. Bees "eat fruit" to produce honey? 8. Solomon heard ants talking to each other? 9. Mountains are "pegs" that keep the earth stable? 10. Milk comes from a cows bowls? 11. Every living thing is created in pairs? 12. There are seven earths just like there are seven heavens? 13. Women are tilth(property) so you can treat them as such, and BEAT THEM if they ate disobedient to you? 14. The sun sets in a pool of muddy water? 15. Mary is the sister of Aaron who was born 1500 years before her? 16. The earth created before the heavens in one surah and the heavens created before the earth in another surah. .... and many many more... Now if you want to see where Mohammed took these fanciful tales from then please read this... www.truthnet.org/islam/source.htm I hope all these fun facts about islam will blow your mind and you will be honest enough to reject it. Ciao,

[@sulaimankhan3457]

@@thomaspaul5989 How you are wrong I will clear with one example. The sun drown in mudedd poll.. Explanation. In the story of king named dual qarnain when he reached in west to a sea and saw that sun is drowning he thought like the sun is drowing in the sea which was like mudded phool. The Quran is here directly qouting the king veiw. The rest of point should be explained as such. All these points or faults are not in Quran but due to lack of knowledge and ignorance on reader.

[@Cruz8R]

Title of this video: "How did they decide if a *Qur'an* version was canonical?" Muslims in the comments: The *Bible...*

[@Repent4JesusChrist]

The greatest fabrication ever!!!

[@theguyver4934]

What ?

[@gramaniguna]

pl provide the full and complete presentation of shady nasser god bless you.

[@islamicclarity7062]

It's in the description. Thanks & God bless you too

[@gramaniguna]

Thank u br

[@1541965]

@@islamicclarity7062 I will give you back the same question How did Christian decide which version of the Bible is canonical version? Orthodox version ,contain 86 books, the Charismatic version, contain 76 books, the Roman Catholic version ,contain 73 books, and all the Protestant versions contain 66 books including the new world translation of the Holy Scripture

[@talisupremacy7176]

@@1541965 The book called the bible and the book called the quran are not the same in its nature. You are comparing oranges with rock's. What is damning for the quran does not have to apply to the Christian book. Your question is irrelevant.

[@1541965]

@@talisupremacy7176 saying my question is irrelevant doesn't answer my question. Thanks.

[@gramaniguna]

I wish all muslims to listen to these kinds of messages. then only they can be enlightened.

[@BasedYeeter42]

I for one am one of them and it’s led me to question my faith

[@truthseeker7951]

@@BasedYeeter42 then you are on the right path, my friend I pray you will meet the true God of Abraham

[@BasedYeeter42]

@@truthseeker7951 God willing

[@truthseeker7951]

@@BasedYeeter42 if I may make a suggestion for you, my friend, spend 15-20 minutes of your time to read the first 3 chapters of the Bible (Genesis 1-3). You will find there some very important things such as: God's attributes (immanent, holy & love), God's view of mankind and God's view of sin These will help you understand the rest of God's revelation in the Bible

[@truthseeker7951]

@@BasedYeeter42 very important point is when God created us IN HIS IMAGE Quran copy this but left behind the theology, the importance of this, which is: God wants to have a beautiful relationship with us His creations, as family. The same reason why our children resemble our image as their parents.

[@goodluckmaxwell5690]

Informative piece

[@nazhasan428]

Variation in reading of quran is not strange to all muslim. They know about this. The most important is the message and meaning of all verses are preserved from prophet Muhammad until today. Please show me any major variation to the extend of wrong or opposite teaching of Islam in any version of Quran today. When Allah said He will protect Quran, He refer to the main teaching and message delivered by Quran. You see, although we have many variation of Quran, we pray, we pay zakat and we practise Haj in the same way.

[@Cruz8R]

Remember this: "word by word", "vowel by vowel", "letter by letter", "dot by dot"?

[@fantasia55]

So, which is the version perfectly preserved in Heaven for eternity?

[@sidprice6214]

@@Cruz8R Whats your problem with this?

[@alpicwnel]

You guys should aware of the hadith which says: "Quran sent down with the quraisy dialect" its the standard quran... the 7 qiraat is for the tribes around the arabs, because they speak using different accent... its like american and british english...

[@truthseeker7951]

Jibril visit me yesterday & said today's quran is corrupted, and the original is lost. Jibril said so, then it is so. Case closed.

[@michaelceasar]

Yes....the standard Narrative has holes in it

[@1541965]

I will give you back the same question How did Christian decide which version of the Bible is canonical version? Orthodox version ,contain 86 books, the Charismatic version, contain 76 books, the Roman Catholic version ,contain 73 books, and all the Protestant versions contain 66 books including the new world translation of the Holy Scripture

[@stayawayfromislam3941]

The New Testaments are the same. Have you read those Jewish apocryphal books you are mentioning?

[@m1self01]

A simple google search will tell you that,: for example orthodox use septuagint, protestant use masoratic text as there basis for the OT.

[@1541965]

@@m1self01 That doesn't answer my question, Thanks.

[@1541965]

@@stayawayfromislam3941 When you say The New Testaments are the same you admit that the OT is corrupted therefor you jump to the NT . thanks.

[@stayawayfromislam3941]

@@1541965 I did not say the OT is corrupted. If you actually read those Jewish apocryphal books, they do not change ANY of the meaning!

[@sultan_periyar_alamsha]

The eternal integrity and infallibility of Barrister Jinnah's landmark declaration of 1940: "Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and litterateurs. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspect on life and of life are different. It's quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans (Muslims) derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap each other. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state". -------------------------- The above declaration of Jinnah Saheb is nothing but a beautiful interpretation of "Kafir and Jihadh ideology" of Quran and sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(sal). --- Allah promises in Quran that his verses are eternal truth and nothing will change until the day of judgement. While Kafir vs Muslim paradigm has not changed since the day Allah created the first human, how can it change now? The shocking truth is, 40 crore Indian Muslims believe that Indian army and Indian police are waiting to kill them. --- In fact, majority Indian Muslims are supporting China to break the Indian Union. Enemy's enemy is my friend. ----- Hindu Rashtra is indeed, a blessing in disguise for Muslims. Now, they have every reason to stand up and justify the Jihadh for an independent Islamic state by openly joining hands with the nuclear powered Islamic superpower Pakistan. ---- Kashmir, Khalistan, Jesustan, Islamistan and Dravida Nadu liberation movements are uniting and getting ready to break the Indian Union like Soviet Union. --- Allahu Akbar.

[@whatzthatzmeanz5365]

Dr. Shaddy is contradicting himself saying urhman did the first canonization then saying before ibn Mujahid no one tried. With all due respect the prophet Muhammad salahu alihe wa salam did the first canonization as stated by himself and historians then as the language was eroding due to it being recited by large amount of foreigners uthman and the companion wrote the Quran so it can be user friendly for the new Muslims without compromising the recitation as he send reciters along with the kutub to verious cities check the Bermingham fragments and others then as time passed the arabic language had erroded very bad hence other scholars like ibn Mujahid tried to standardize the readings. Dr Shaddy is only relating history in a partial manner. Is the tafsir of at tabari missing any surah or ayyah?? He may approved or disapprove the different qeeraat. But at the end of the day the ayaats are the same as what we have today. So the so called " preservation issue" is you exposing your limited knowledge in the field.

[@christwitness847]

what is your evidence that Mohammad did the first canonization ?

[@whatzthatzmeanz5365]

@@christwitness847 jibrel revised the entire Quran twice with him in his last year of his life which was a sign of his life comming to an end. Bukhari 3376 That was cannonization in the recital..first method of preservation.

[@christwitness847]

@@whatzthatzmeanz5365 I am not asking what you believe, i am asking what are the historical evidence of that ? Bukhari was written 240 years after the facts.

[@whatzthatzmeanz5365]

@@christwitness847 what historical evidence you need if not Bukhari. Rome and Persia was busy fighting and Europe in darkness .Bukhari did a decent job in collecting and documenting those historical events.

[@christwitness847]

@@whatzthatzmeanz5365 The hadiths are made up after the facts, 240 years later. There is no historical evidence that mohammad did the first canonization.

[@aliditta7768]

WHY DON'T YOU CHRISTIANS DEBATE MUFTI ABU LAYTH ??

[@arulsammymankondar30]

Debate what? The mufti agrees there are changes, but calls them ' dynamic preservation '. But this is not agreeable to salafis. When Muslims themselves don't agree, what is there for the Christians to debate. That there is only one Quran perfectly preserved in Heaven is an old story to be buried.

[@theman8070]

Because he is a secret Christian ✝️ lol

[@roshlew6994]

@@theman8070 who?

[@yvonnegonzales2973]

Destroyed Qur'an by canon

[@mustang6756]

There are 31 versions..which one will be?

[@fantasia55]

37

[@mustang6756]

@@fantasia55 just wondering what if 37 muslims line up reading 37 different quran at the same time..will they all agree with each other or they all confused and leave islam.

[@mustang6756]

@tim donald 50000?

[@mustang6756]

@tim donald only 50000? It was millions.

[@ronnieyb3113]

Where have you been Islamic clarity

[@appearances9250]

Have you ever considered quoting traditional scholars instead of camping on Shady for the answer to your question? Why not be balanced & present multiple views instead of (what seems) what suits your biases?

[@appearances9250]

@mysotiras3 Brilliant answer 🤭🤦🏻👏👏👏

[@sislertx]

Yes..of the over 100 totally.different korans none.are.

[@cgmohammed]

EVIL EYE /\ ... JINNS