How Different are D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e

I often get asked what the biggest differences between Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e are so I thought I would talk about some of the things I think set them apart from a player's perspective.
Let me know what you think the biggest differences are in the comments!
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Welcome to the info paragraph, this is a place to feed the great algorithm, and if you've made it here you have probably scrolled too far! Icarus Games is dedicated to helping dungeons and dragons players and dungeon masters improve their experience in roleplaying games. For RPG players, there are videos on learning dungeons and dragons rules, as well as on character building, roleplaying, and optimization. For Game Masters, there are videos on organizing your dungeon master screen, improving your worldbuilding for your RPGs, and for creating homebrew dungeons and dragons content.
#dnd #dmtips #dungeonsanddragons

[@ZaberFangAT]

Another benefit of 1s and 20s changing degree of success rather than auto-crit is when you're facing things with a decent level difference. If your party ends up facing a bunch of level 1 goblins at level 5, for instance, they can't just randomly crit you. In fact, they probably need a natural 20 to hit at all. And if a natural 20 just means they don't crit fail, then they really shouldn't be fighting you.

[@dustrockblues7567]

Could be seen as a negative as well... I have heard people say every creature having a small chance to hit any other creature is a good thing (particularly in discussions about bounded accuracy.) Not sure which I like better.

[@RealTechnophoria]

@@dustrockblues7567 It doesn't seem realistic though

[@TheReZisTLust]

​@@RealTechnophoriaSo it doesnt make sense the fighter happened to slip and the Goblin landed a critical stab in the middle of combat in a cave with limited lighting?

[@Gregory-lt5ox]

​@@TheReZisTLust it depends since the fighter is likely to be truly superhuman your scenario would most likely not work but that depends on the setting

[@envytee9659]

Honestly, someone (maybe even Paizo) should make a short video series specifically aimed at teaching 5e players how to play PF2E. I have so many buddies that were reluctant to learn PF2E even though they love 5E, and when I finally convinced them to sit down and let me explain, they were shocked how similar everything was and how few rules you really had to learn when coming over from 5e.

[@Dawnseeker_Ch]

Considering their power move yesterday? That'd be really smart, yeah.

[@pwtprojects5610]

Dont worry, WOTC is "working" for that to happen.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

This is a great explanation video! I'll pass it on. From my experience with 5e and hearing from others, the slowness of advancement is deliberate, to make those levels last longer because high levels in 5e are pretty broken and/or hard to run. Similarly, levels 1 and 2 are made to be very quick. They're both kind of like band-aids. I enjoy the fact that pf2e succeeds at making all the levels balanced and rewarding in their own ways. Plus, leveling up is exciting when you do it!

[@IcarusGames]

I'm currently running high-level 5e, and it's painful. I ran PF1 from levels 1-20 and that had its own issues at higher levels, but I never felt the lack of mechanical and system support and balance I do now with 5e.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@IcarusGames It's a curse and a blessing... when I started running PF2e, running my 5e campaign became actively more painful and I couldn't wait for it to end. What I had somewhat liked before I didn't have the spark for anymore. I was having fun running PF1e, but ever since running 2e I don't see myself running PF1e except for a short adventure at the lower levels.

[@kryptonianguest1903]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Matthew Colville ran a D&D4e game a little while ago. The players in that game who've also played 5e with him asked him to please never make them play 5e again now that they've tasted balance and interesting tactics.

[@IcarusGames]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Completely agree. The mechanical side of running my 5e game has become a heavy burden indeed!

[@savevsdeath]

@@kryptonianguest1903 I keep preaching the 4E gospel but Paizo and the grognards did too good a job slandering it.

[@zenvariety9383]

Not a D&D player or Pathfinder player yet, but Pathfinder 2e sounds like it has the better game design. Not to mention characters can chose archetypes to add more individuality.

[@SwingRipper]

It depends what you want 5e is easier to jump into *as a player* and get playing also due to its looser rules you can morph it to be just about any setting *good enough* PF2 is about making a lot of decisions at every point in the game as a player and it rewards strategy. It has a rule for everything and advice everywhere which makes GMing it much easier after you learn how to search up rules and they way DCs are calculated for improv stuff(everything calls for very similar DCs of Bonus+10 or leveled DC). PF2 lets you run a *great* tactical game where even downtime can be a resource to spend on activities, but if tactics are not your market then I would even suggest things like 5e if you want to have some level of tactical combat and don't mind some holes in the system... or Dungeon World so that you don't have the baggage of any large combat system and can focus on the story! It is far easier to play Pathfinder2e than find/create a homebrew, balanced version of 5e that includes a high level of player choice! However again some players simply do not vibe with the tactics engine! (I am a PF2 player who DMed 5e for years so I have *opinions* on 5e's balancing tools)

[@aralornwolf3140]

Pathfinder 2e _is_ better designed. The designers made it to be the best balanced D20 game humanly possible. The co-developer of 2e has been working with NoNat1's (YT Channel) for several months now (he quit Paizo due to pay disputes unfortunately.. hopefully with the recent unionizing those disputes will be less of a problem for the employees) and is a frequent speaker on the channel's weekly stream about game design. You could go and watch/listen to those videos and you'll understand the design principles that 2e used and the ones 5e used. As Mark also was part of Paizo's 5e 3rd party product development -- he was forced to reverse engineer 5e's design so Piazo could make sure their products were the best possible -- so you can trust his assessments on 5e design. Anyway, any game system you like is the only one(s) you should play. Ideally, lol. I want to try a Firefly Campaign (uses a modified Cortex 2 System rule set)... I think it would be best... but no one to play with. :(

[@IcarusGames]

The two systems have different design and ethos goals. If I wanted to run a game for 4 people who had never picked up a dice before in 30 minutes time, I would run 5e almost every time. D&D makes it very easy as a player to pick up and get going, but does so by sacrificing some mechanical balance, a degree of depth and options, and by loading a lot of the burden for keeping the ship going onto the dungeon master. PF2 is more complex, but only in so much as it actually has written rules for almost everything, whereas in 5e a lot of the time it's left for the dungeon master to figure out or decide, there's actual mechanical support for a lot more stuff in PF.

[@zenvariety9383]

@@IcarusGames agree. I've seen vods of D&D 5e campaigns and Pathfinder 2e. Yet the best way to learn the game is to watch/listen to campaigns.

[@SwingRipper]

@@IcarusGames With the 30min as my goal I would pick Dungeon World every time because then I don't need to explain what a "bonus action" a "skill proficiency" or a "saving throw" is... IMO 5e is great if you want to have the numbers but low complexity, but I don't think I really need the numbers to tell a good story (particularly because then I don't need to stop to explain what a short rest is)

[@a_pet_rock]

I'd say the coolest difference is the action economy! In 5e you only have one standard action so it is critical that it is used optimally. Every single option has to be weighed against just attacking or casting fireball again. You want to do this cool thing, but it will never be as valuable as just dealing more damage. In PF2e you get 3 actions to be used for anything. Attack three times to deal the most damage? Sure, but there's a multiple attack penalty. It's actually more optimal to do those cool things to buff your attacks or your allies. The whole system encourages you to use tactics and use more character options instead of just stand and slap.

[@Gloriankithsanus]

Bro what, that sounds amazing

[@johnsmith-fy8jo]

In dnd it is often NOT optimal to just attack or cast fireball, however, the action economy makes that the most obvious and reliable choice.

[@BasementMinions]

I'd add from a GM perspective the encounter building being balanced is and enormous weight off your shoulders. You can spend a lot more time creating interesting encounters without worrying about manually balancing them. Plus having items have a corresponding level makes rewarding players much easier, and it makes player shopping a lot more exciting and far less of a headache especially involving magic items.

[@aralornwolf3140]

Magic items are optional in D&D 5e... unlike the previous 6 iterations... in which they were taken into account and thus were balanced (mostly). Like many optional rules in 5e, WotC didn't bother to balance them... nor give them much thought.

[@damus5728]

I love the 5e advice of "just be stingy and don't give magic items" to fix game balance. I bet my players will love that

[@Homiloko2]

Encounter balance is my major peeve with 5e, it feels like it's more based on luck than anything else because using CR almost never works. I hate having to adjust things on the fly, things like giving the monsters more HP or having to hold back by making the monsters 'dumber' than they should be.. It ruins the game for me but at least the players don't know about it and they're having a good time. I keep hearing PF2 encounter building is balanced and this is what makes me want to try it out the most.

[@aralornwolf3140]

@@Homiloko2 , Mark Seifter and company did their best to make everything in PF2e balanced. So, monsters are balanced and encounter building is so much easier because of that balance.

[@queenannsrevenge100]

@@aralornwolf3140 - I will readily admit that 5e did need to plan better for magic items. As Devil's Advocate, many of PF2e's "magic items" just do not feel useful. For example, the talisman that, as a single-use item, gives you a bonus to catching a ledge if you fall one time only.

[@scottboyer8450]

Very informative for a newer player. With the upcoming One D&D Microtransaction hellscape that is about to be unleased by the suits at Hasbro, I'm really looking at making the switch to PF2e. I just hope Paizo can survive the coming storm because even if WoC lose a million players, they are going to make gobs of money with VTT and digital MTX. I just knew they were going to 'Video Game' the TTRPG market sooner or later, I'm kind of shocked it took this long.

[@Helton_Moreira1]

They actually tried to "video game" the market sooner, in 2007 with the announcement of D&D 4e there was also the announcement of D&D Insider which was a subscription that also had a virtual game table, i think it was the first 3D VTT project at the time, but because of many problems the VTT didn't lived pass the beta stage. They ended the support for D&D Insider in 2020 so it seems they are trying to do an official D&D VTT again, but this time for 5e.

[@scottboyer8450]

@@Helton_Moreira1 I remember 4th edition played like a video game but they didn't have any MTXs beyond the usual splat books. I wasn't aware they'd tried it before. Seems like they've got the system worked out - I just know they are going to charge for everything, new miniature models, poses, paint colors, limited edition stuff when you buy this new book, etc, etc.

[@sarhodes87]

Paizo doesn't need to become more popular than WotC/D&D, they've been producing lots of amazing books since 2E launched and I think that the vast majority of 2E players wouldn't have any interest in going back to D&D 5.5 or whatever they are bringing out. The tools made available to GMs for 2E is also so much better than 5E that even if the players decided they wanted to ditch the choices and tactical combat, convincing a DM to go back to a largely homebrew system is going to be a tough sell. WotC will probably create a tonne of money holes for D&D players to jump down, but I think Paizo and 2E still has a very rosy future (especially if 'one D&D' turns out to by a massive disappointment as I feel it will).

[@scottboyer8450]

@@sarhodes87 Well said, and I'll always support Pathfinder as an old school chum of mine's older brother is one of the lead game designers. (Radney-MacFarland)

[@TheMurmandamus]

Man can you see into the future?! Watching this as I switch from D&D 5e

[@cinther]

I have a feeling this video is going to be very useful given OGL 1.1

[@alucas705]

After the whole fiasco with the ogl im very interested in potentially switching my group over

[@VoicesOfChaos]

The 3-action economy is the biggest difference. It makes gameplay so much more interesting. When 5th edition first started they wanted "Bonus Actions" to be very rare but power-creep has made them mandatory. Going back to 5th edition, if you play a character without a useful bonus action every single turn (or even a martial character who hasn't gotten Extra Attack yet due to multiclassing) while everyone else does it basically feels you are doing half as much as everyone else and being half as effective as everyone else. That isn't fun for a game. In PF2 you are guaranteed your 3 actions every single turn (barring negative conditions) from level 1! The martial classes don't need to wait until level 5 to feel effective. Now of course newer players might be wasteful of their 3rd action which is similar to the bonus action problem but it is just so much less punishing. The other big difference is the critical system. I feel like it is overall easy to understand but it is hard to understand how much impact it has until you actually play. It makes every +1 and -1 so much more impactful! In my 5th edition campaign I am actually pretty liberal with giving out big bonuses to hit but giving out a +5 to hit for surrounding an enemy. And yet that +5 to hit in D&D is so much less exciting than the mere +1 to hit in PF2. In D&D it just means the low chance of missing gets even lower. But in PF2 it means a bigger chance to critically hit! In D&D we have had people buffed up from multiple sources that hit 20 above their AC! All for a normal hit, no greater chance of a critical hit despite all those many bonuses. Criticals are fun! Customization is better. Every single time you level up you get SOMETHING! higher levels of D&D there are lots of levels where you get nothing! Spellcasters get new spells but even that doesn't feel like a great achievement. It is always really exciting to level up in Pathfinder. Something else I like about the customization is that in Pathfinder your ancestry (/race) gives you new powers at high levels. D&D is shifting towards this a bit with giving more racial spells at 3rd and 5th level. I really like more than only just your class providing you new abilities as you level up. One last highly subjective thing to throw out that probably isn't mentioned enough is that Paizo started off writing adventures and they are so good at it! I'm currently only played through 1 Paizo-written adventure for PF2 but it is so much better written than any of the many published adventures by Wizards Of The Coast I have played. I have no idea what WotC is so bad at writing 5E modules. As someone playing since 3rd edition I don't know why they declined so badly. But 5E adventures all feel half-finished and expect DMs to write the rest. PF2 adventures (at least for sure the one I am playing through) just seem so much more GM-friendly and complete.

[@Llortnerof]

Well, in 3E _Paizo_ was writing adventures for D&D...

[@nilspetterbrekke2492]

This vid might get a boost now, considering the circumstances

[@RadimuxCisco]

I was happy with 5e but started missing the level of customization that 3.5 has and now I am back to a 3.5 game. Pathfinder 2nd sounds good. I will look into it more.

[@Myrdraall]

PF1 was basically a streamlined 3.5. It ran on the same system but everything was just better. Like it sounds utopic as a blanket statement, but that's exactly how it was. No class table was just empty; everyone had cool options every level or 2. PF2 was a weird read at first coming from PF1/3.5, but after a couple campaigns with it I don't think I'd go back.

[@RadimuxCisco]

@@Myrdraall I commented to my DM about pathfinder 1 but he mentioned that, while they are improvements, it would be learning a very similar system so it was not worth it for him. And he read the 3.5 books so many times that he can sometimes guess the page for something he wants to confirm. I guess I need to step up, learn P2 and get confidence to master a campaign because otherwise we won't play it. I DM a few times but I never felt it was good enough or that I had enough time.

[@ThornHailsnap]

I have to say though, while 5e is certainly much simpler and more limiting by-the-book, most people don't play DnD strictly by-the-book. That's one of the things that makes the game so interesting. The simplicity encourages players and DMs to get creative, and they can make it as complex or keep it as simple as they want. And the rules surrounding each aspect of the game are very easy to comprehend, even to a person who's never played a TTRPG before in their life. As a chronic Fighter with a vivid imagination, I would probably enjoy Pathfinder 2e a lot. But I've also played several DnD 5e campaigns with a variety of DMs, and no two games have been remotely similar. And, they've all been incredibly fun.

[@alistairoakley898]

This is a really great explanation video and you've laid out the differences very clearly. It's a shame because I far prefer Paizo as a company to WotC but tbh most of the differences you list do make me want to stick with 5e. D&D is already a fairly crunch-heavy game and my players do tend to get pretty bogged down in it. Part of the reason we left 3.5 behind was the sheer number of small modifiers accumulated from different sources weighing sessions down. Still, the proof will be in the pudding and I'm looking forward to giving it a spin.

[@Mystra]

Pathfinder 2E here I come, bye Wizards of the Past.

[@christopherplummer1299]

The more I learn about it, the more I am thinking of changing over to Pathfinder 2e.

[@IcarusGames]

I'm making my first character for next Friday's video, so you'll get a look at the character creation process :D

[@Byaren803]

The more I hear about pathfinder the harder it seems 😅 and the less I want to try it.

[@marshalsunrise6582]

Honestly 5e is a lot easier to play and the spells are far simpler for me , also better lore

[@Sanguivore]

Super helpful video! And the little subtle bits of editing added a lot. For future videos, could you maybe do some overlaid graphics for bits like the PF2E XP table you were talking about? Cheers, Anto!

[@IcarusGames]

This video was saved in the edit, not going to lie! I've been ill all week and this was edited in a fever dream of cold medicine 😂 More graphics would definitely have helped, and I do usually try and include them, but my sick-brain was clearly more focused on face-graphs :P The tables for PF2 advancement can be found here: 2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=574 or on pg. 507 of the core rulebook :D

[@Sanguivore]

@@IcarusGames Oh, man, I hope you're feeling better now! The fever-dream definitely paid off at least. xD And the face-graphs were my favorite part. x3 Cheers for linking me to the charts, bud!

[@0kaiKai]

When I was trying to convince my friend who plays 5e to try PF2e, he got into character options really fast. And then I've introduced him to archetypes and dedications.

[@queenannsrevenge100]

Hardest part about PF2 for me was the DOZENS and DOZENS of traits and what they mean, as well as all the derived effects of conditions. I know they’re critical to gameplay, but even today, after two years of playing, even with cheat sheets, they slow me down as player and GM.

[@ASalad]

Player side: The constant sense of scaling up is really nice. Not just more options, but all of your cantrips, your weapon damage, your modifiers, they're all going up along with your HP. It's good RPG feels. And it never really makes the math any harder, especially because the adjustments are gradual and each level you spend plenty of hours working with the current numbers and getting comfortable with them before you go up a little next level.

[@Grumppant]

Looking to get into pathfinder now, thanks for this video!

[@andersschmich8600]

Released just as I started planning a Pathfinder campaign!

[@Smoke_from_a_Mirror]

You know why I'm here now. Thanks for the content.

[@IcarusGames]

Whatever brought you here, you are welcome and we're glad to have you 😊

[@harrywhiteley89]

I must admit that from my experience levelling in 5e, the middle section of the game 8-12 is actually the point where the game speeds up levelling, this is because the xp required to level is too low for the difficulty of encounters your character requires to level up... unless the middle of the game is 5th-8th which is probably the longest section of the game in relation to how quickly you can level up... Which I think is intentional because WoTC has probably balanced the game for these levels

[@sanssheriff3829]

I really liked 5e, even though I played 3.5/pathfinder 1 in the past. Compared to the old systems, it is important for me to have a more manageable complexity, especially at the table, I really hated the situational +1s that you calculated on the spot and excessive other minor features that I always forget. I wouldn't mind more options than 5e during build, as long as it contributes to a more streamlined character during play. I found it far easier to get new players into 5e than other systems before it. I intended to play 5e for decades, but now I am morally compelled to find a new system again. For those that have played them, where do you think the complexity of PF2 lies compared to 3.5/PF1 and 5e? Both during play and during the build.

[@sanssheriff3829]

*Ofcourse above is based on my experience of these systems at the time. I really hope PF2 is for me, or that some other system comes along to fill the gaping hole, but more importantly: Most of the crew I am playing with now is all about the story and want a system that doesn't get in the way rather than giving you loads of options. 5e is that... For players, for DMs, not so much. Current campaigns will run its course in 5e, but I will switch to a different main system. The question is only when and which system.

[@IcarusGames]

I've done 1-20 campaigns in Pathfinder 1 and 5e. Pathfinder 2 I would say sits between the two in terms of "complexity" Character creation is more in depth than 5e, and there are more things that can give you situational bonuses, but it's not like it was in 3.5 with the million tiny modifiers to as bad a degree. Because of the way PF2's resolution mechanic works, in so much as 10 over the target number being considered one degree of success better, those little +1s you get are waaay more impactful because they mean you are both more likely to succeed, but also more likely to critically succeed.

[@havocsheart]

One of my players, who also GMs his own games in 5e, came off of a PF2e game recently. He actually left it before the game ended, and his main reason was Pathfinder 2e's lack of "elasticity", as he put it. He felt less able to use his skills creatively, as everything has a very definite set of uses in PF2e. This wasn't just down to the PCs either. There were numerous times when he or the GM wanted to do something with their various skills, and to do so unfortunately took too much for them to quickly pace out, unless they did something simple and akin to a more limited system (like 5e). A few of the players also had a choice paralysis problem, where the wealth of options every level up actually inhibited their enjoyment by forcing them to think how to play optimally in the system. In the end, it feels like this by the sound of it. If you are more systems focussed and want a smooth, logical experience that directs you with its systems, choose PF2e. If you want a looser overall game, where you can calvinball something, or use your abilities in unorthodox ways, and the rules are guidelines that enable that, choose D&D5e. Different strokes.

[@deladriendilmegilindir9499]

The Sidequests upcoming KS seem to be focused on 5e only. Do you anticipate creating content for PF2e in the future? (does Paizo even allow that?)

[@IcarusGames]

It is only focused on 5e, that's right. The main reason is it's bundling 12 months of existing content, which was written as 5e content. Once I am more familiar with the process of making content for PF2, I will likely start to include PF2 content to go alongside the 5e content in the magazine, but that's a ways off for now.

[@darkwarrior03352]

I think the reason why D&D has an XP curve is because of the basic, expected rule that the harder a monster is, the more XP it's worth. Well as you level up, if there is no XP curve, the amount of time spent in each level would completely flip: during the early levels, you would advance super slowly because you aren't very powerful, and you have to kill tiny goblins to squeak up enough XP to level up, whereas in later levels when you can kill relatively challenging monsters with ease, you will gain XP super quickly and finish out your level arc super quickly. Having a level curve makes it so that you get through all of the early levels where you're not so powerful relatively quickly, and leveling up later on becomes an exciting occasion. And it also rewards low-level characters taking on something that should be too powerful for them, and ending up winning.

[@the1tacoterror]

Who is here after the ORC license announcement?

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Wow! My mind is blown. Today I opeaned up my Pathfinder starter set. It is called the "Begginer Box". I see that the same set is in this video in the background. This is a nice set. It comes with a grid and cardboard figures. It is like a basic minitures game that I imagine a TTRPG to be like. There are also a couple of nice booklets. I see the video background also has books for DND 5E and 4E. Nice. When I read through the basic rules, I see that they seem familiar, really familiar. The first TTRPG I played was DND 5E. I struggled with it really bad because I didn't understand the rules. I did learn eventually. I am at the point where I know the basics. I can get through a game session okay, especially with a supportive DM. DND does have a huge adventage in allowing for a ton of creativity. I am fasnated with the DM role. I am also fascinated with house rules and homebrew. When I got into DND, I was already a veteran of World of Warcraft. I see that the tabletop version of an RPG has a tradeoff comepared to the video game version. The tabletop version is more difficult to play, because players have to calculate everything themselves. They don't have the luxury of the computer calculating for them. The increased creativity of the DM makes up for it. Video game players are limited to the rules and content that gets programmed into the game. Sure havking and modding are a thing. However it the exception not the norm. In the DND community, such changes are normalized.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Pathfinder is the second TTRPG that I got into. I dismissed it at first, because it seemed like a DND ripoff. Then it became a big deal recently during the licensing scandal in DND. So I got Pathfinder stuff to see what the fuss was about. So far I got the Core Rulebook, Bestiary 1 and Beginner Box. Now when I get into the Beginner Box, I become amazed. Pathfinder is an easy game to learn and figure out. It is not because it is simple or dumbed down. It is just that so many things parallel DND. This video makes a claim that a DND player already knows most of the rules in Pathfinder. I can see why. The basic structure of Pathfinder is identical to DND. The differences are small things. All the differences described in the video are small. Then I got a big insight. One can house rule this stuff. Once I have some grasp on the basics of DND, I end up making my own house rules. It is mainly to streamline the game. There are things that makes gameplay easier and faster, without causing negative side effects. There is a house rule to make health be a set number and not be random. There is a house rule to use mana instead of spell slots for magic. There are some other ones. My biggest one is changing dice rolls in a turn. A creature rolls once for damage. Then they add bonuses to the damage roll instead of the attack roll. Armor doesn't reduce the opponent accuracy. Instead a creature gets an armor bonus that subtracts from the damage they receive. If a damaging spells requires a saving throw, it works almost the same way. The only difference is that damage is subtracted by the ability score instead of the armor bonus. The differences in Pathfinder are a lot like the house rules that I am already doing. They don't change the basic framework of the game. They are just small things that the game designer thinks are improvements. Playing Pathfinder seems like it is going to be like playing someone else's DND homebrew. I know that it was an offshoot of DND 3E, but this is nuts.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

One Pathfinder rule I like is the action economy. I did go and watch the other video about it. With that established, I don't need to explain it here. The three action economy makes the game simpler and more streamlined. This is an improvement. That is the main motive behind my development of house rules. It is also nifty to put penalties in additional attacks in a turn. It prevents players from abusing the system. The video on turn economy did say that this method is more flexible. Good point. The change in action economy is still a small thing. One can totally house rule this. Seriously dude! One can play DND. Then they can just use the Pathfinder action economy. I can even figure out a basic way to figure out the action cost. Basic actions have one action point, like moving, hiding or using an item. Melee strikes and ranged weapon attacks also have one action point each. For spellcasters, cantrips have one action point each. Attacks get two action points if they are more substantial. This includes spells that cost spell slots. This also includes special abilities that martial classes use. I blew my mind when I got into DND, and get into the creativity of homebrew. With Pathfinder my mind gets blown again. I have learned to like Pathfinder. I am eager to get more stuff. It is fascinating how the two games go together. Video games are very distinct from one another even those that share the same genre. World of Warcraft, Pokemon and Final Fantasy are distinct despite all of them being RPGs. Mario and Sonic are distinct despite them being platformers. Changing from one video game to another has a significant shift to it. With TTRPGs the distinction can get blurred. I already have a good idea of what RAW Pathfinder is like, even without playing it. Maybe I will never play that version. I never played RAW DND 5E without the help of a DM. Some of those rules can be a bit over my head. There is even a trend among DND players that outright ignore certain rules. This is because the rules get too fiddly and bog down the game. Because I have some experience with DND 5E I have some ideas on what rules I like and what rules I don't like. I could probably skip the RAW version of Pathfinder without missing out on important learning. Then I get to playing around with rules. Pathfinder seems less like a distinct game and more like another tool for game building. I can find the different rules. I can experiment with any rules I like or am interested in. Pathfinder has an interesting action economy. That part alone can be put in a game and be experimented on. There is one part of the video that I found so amusing. The video starts by explaining how hits, misses and crits work in Pathfinder. The funny thing is that DND players have already made house rules to change how crits work. It is a major thing. It would be so easy to implement Pathfinder crit rules into DND. Playing around the rules really blurs distinctions among TTRPGs.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Pathfinder seems like a ripoff of DND at first. However now I am actually really excited about it. I like to get more. I already know the basics. Yet the tweaks in the rules are really mind-blowing. Pathfinder seems less like its own game. It seems more like a new tool for game design. There is a new thing with its own tools and content. So I can play around with them on a game design level. I have dabbled with earlier editions in DND. I view them the same way. Different editions basically have the same structure with different details. I haven't played earlier editions yet, but I think they are neat. I am a weirdo that actually likes 4E. There are so many classes, and they work in fascinating ways. I am seriously considering getting into that sometime. Even though 4E is weird, I can still experiment with the rules and classes it has. Pathfinder can really expand my horizons. I even got more stuff. I got books for both 4E and 3E in DND. I also got Call of Cthulhu and Dungeon Crawl Classics. I can really imagine making my own RPG. I definitely got into it. Game design fascinates me. Making DM changes to DND can definitely be a gateway. With Pathfinder I see that making a separate TTRPG is easier than I thought. Just do the DM changes and file off the serial numbers. Voila! New game. I am weirdo in that the licensing scandal didn't bother me. I even think the fan outrage is just overreacting. The solution is to make new games entirely. That is how RPGs were formed after DND pioneered it. There were even TCGs and adventure games as offshoots. Now I see that making a new game is easy. So it is best to stop whining and start designing. One major saving grace is that game mechanics can't be copyrighted. That helps a lot. I flipped through Pathfinder spells. There are quite a few spells that have the same name as DND spells. It even has fireball, and it essentially works the same way. Granted designing any game is a lot of work. What I am saying is that making a derivative game is easier than making a game with more new stuff.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

I got some ideas for a new game. One thing I am good at is the world building. I already have my own fantasy world, called Lonlarrian. I developed it for years. Over time I do experiment with ideas and focus on things I like. I like to go for a cute and colorful world. It is a world focused on magic and Paganism. I find that I prefer homebrewing a world and adventure as opposed to using modules. I have collected a lot of Module Books from DND 5E. They are very interesting. I don't run them though. Eventually I see them as tools for homebrew. They got plenty of cool stories, creatures and settings. I can really pick out things I like. When getting into other editions of DND and other games I aim to get the basic books. Basic books are higher priority than modules. They work as tools for developing rules. Modules from other games are neat too, but not priority. A cool thing to work on is classes. It is my favorite part of RPGs. I just get fascinated and even obsessed with how different classes fight. It is amazing. I also get into the elements in Pokemon and color in Magic the Gathering, and those two are similar to classes. I would like to play around with classes and figure out how they work. So far I did the evocation wizard from DND 5E. It was so cool. I basically fighters and leveled one character rapidly. It took three sessions to go from level 1 to 20. I would like to do more with other classes in DND 5E. I can go further. The Xanathar and Tasha books have new subclasses. 4E has three player handbooks, with tons of classes. Pathfinder has its own class system. The Pathfinder book I would like to get next is one with more classes. Maybe I can make my own class system along with basic basic rules I design. I have already developed an original class system. I would love to flesh that out even more with more inspiration. One idea I came up with on my own is a system where all classes are magicians. There are even magicians replacing martial classes. I came up with four groups of magic. These groups have different flavors and different fighting roles. These groups are nature, arcane, occult and holy. When I got into Pathfinder, I got interested in the magic system. I found that the magic classes are distinguished by the same four groups. They have the same flavors. Sure two of the groups have different names, but the flavor is the same. That is such an amusing coincidence. I guess great minds think alike.

[@itsLemontree]

That is such a great video, i’m a pathfinder noob going into a first dnd game and this has helped greatly

[@IcarusGames]

Glad you found it helpful!

[@RdotDoyle]

Super informative video, loved the graphs! What would you say is the best on-ramp for a GM trying to bring a group along to try and transition? PF2E Beginner Box or is there a better path to jump into?

[@IcarusGames]

I'm a BIG fan of the beginner box from the POV of mechanical onboarding; it's got a lot of great tools for learning how to actually play the game. Your experience of the narrative of the adventure will be super subjective but from a mechanical standpoint and learning the system, the beginner box is great.

[@Prberts]

I'd go for the beginner box, it teaches the players how to play AND the gm how to run (most starter boxes only seem to do the former.) There are then two additional books.of content set in the same town as the Box so if your players are enjoying it you can just grab either Troubles in Otari or Abomination Vaults and pretty much carry on with maybe one evening of prep from the GM (you will be lvl 2 rather than 1 starting Abomination Vaults, but the way PF2 xp works that will have sorted itself by the end of chapter 2.) I ran Beginner Box into Troubles + Abomination Vaults side by side and it was great. Abomination Vaults provides a massive dungeon to explore while Troubles always meant something interesting was happening when the players returned to Town. Paizo really thought this experience through releasing those three products simultaneously.

[@aqualust5016]

Brought to you by #OpenOGL

[@AmIWhoIThinkIAm]

5e Attacks, skills, spells, abilities, etc do not have critical failures, just saving throws. That's all that's official.

[@AleksandrStrizhevskiy]

Damn this video was a timely investment. I bet it's really paying dividends now.

[@duttdits]

Looks like d&d is no longer my system of choice since the OGL 1.1 greed. Come to learn about Pathfinder. Lol. Already a Starfinder GM.

[@IcarusGames]

If you're playing starfinder and 5e, you've got a really solid foundation to understand PF2!

[@duttdits]

@@IcarusGames just found your channel tonight. I'm actually super excited about it! I've been watching 2e vids all night ever since Paizo's declaration of making a legally irrevocable open license of their own as an answer to what is happening. Ttrpgs have given me some of my best memories and best friends I've ever known. D&D was my entry point and I owe a lot to that system, but I can't overlook what they've done even if they revoke changing the OGL. The company that owns the game has greed in their hearts beyond measure and I'll never buy another d&d book unless d&d get picked up by a different company like how they went from TSR to WotC. That being said I'll happily redo every single monster in Curse of Strahd (which I already own) and run it as a Pathfinder game. I look forward to my adventures in 2e with you and all the other lovely KZbinrs who partake! 😇

[@luizcomz0309]

Pathfinder 2e is the system we're using in my first RPG campaign. I've never played DnD, but my friends already have, and they say it's a lot simpler than Pathfinder. Just an easier system to play

[@ljsmooth69]

that in those books that you get the information from or not taking to be set in stone the DM can alter the rules the books are just a guideline

[@TBcinema]

Wow, what a great system! I can't wait to try a campaign in this, a decision most organic and not related to any corporate BS goingson... I just want to play a game with my friends and have fun and escape into a world I, or someone else, made, and just enjoy myself. WotC can go suck it. They did this to MTG, and here they are doing it again.

[@jonwinter-holt3928]

We made the switch a while back and omg PF2 is so much more imaginative, exciting and fun.

[@ollywright]

Very clearly explained

[@mb-fs1yo]

Been thirty years ago but wasn’t a d&d player, I preferred middle earth role playing (MERP). I don’t think you can get the system anymore, I.C.E. had it( Iron Crown Enterprises)

[@Jombo56]

Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e are two different games with the same controls in my opinion. d20 rpg with the same DNDDNA.

[@ChivalrousyWalrusy]

Same controls?

[@IcarusGames]

They share a lot of similar fundamental mechanics (such as d20+modifiers vs DC as the resolution mechanic)

[@solomani-42]

This demonstrates that 3e is the definitive edition of D&D and D&D genre games, as all these changes, even 5e, are just changes around the edges of the system created for 3e. IMO, 5e is the best iteration of 3e and hence D&D. This doesn't mean it doesn't have problems (you need the optional/house rules to make it deadlier), but the mechanics are an elegant iteration of 3e, 3.5e, and 3.75e (pathfinder). But each to their own of course, YMMV!

[@ticciblaze9283]

Who else is here in case we have to jump ship because of the OGL?

[@CSHarvey]

This has become very relevant to my interests for... reasons.

[@erfarkrasnobay]

Most important point in pf2 is buildin in classes balance a build fail-save. Like... Level+TEML is far more impactful then Ability Score. And also feats grand more varaity then power.

[@daveswitzerland4442]

Good Video, Well done!

[@SkySong6161]

From a player perspective, 5E is *really* RNG dependent. Pathfinder 2e has more options in terms of modifiers you can get from skills, equipment, and proficiencies, especially at lower levels. In DND 5E, even someone with a 20 in a stat plus ability modifiers still has a 60% success rate for something they're supposedly good at. And that's not accounting for say, players that have unusually blessed or unusually cursed luck stats themselves. Pathfinder lends itself more towards, "if you're skilled you have more-than-a-coinflip's-chance-of-success," vs 5es approach of "it's in the god's hands whether your lifetime of training in this pays off or not and it's entirely possible you pick your nose so hard you kill yourself while lockpicking."

[@somecallmetimelderberries432]

Nice video, thanks for sharing :)

[@talhoyle]

I don't play either of them anymore but Pathfinder is the best iteration of the 3.5 forward version and 5th is not even in the top ten of simpler D&D. Dungeon World is better at story. 13th Age is better at combat. OSRIC,, Labyrinth Lord, OSE, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, and Blueholme do classic D&D better, and White Hack and Black Hack are more flexible takes. You can redeem 5th with things like 5Torches Deep, but 5e really has difficulty doing anything well. It isn't good for combat, it isn't good enough at making interesting characters, and it falls apart in exploration mode. The only thing it excels in is marketing.

[@knightofrohan]

Is there an option to level up via milestones? As in not counting experience points but rather up to the discretion of the DM after the party accomplishes x number of things in an adventure?

[@ThornHailsnap]

Milestone leveling is absolutely a thing, and works exactly like you described. Most of the DMs I know actually prefer milestone levelling.

[@Tierneil]

I don't get this question. You can always play the way you want to. It's a table top game

[@ThornHailsnap]

@@Tierneil I think knightofrohan was asking if milestone levelling is an option provided in the rulebooks. Like how the PHB describes point buy as an alternative to standard array.

[@gordo8354]

Fitting how the first time WotC tried this licensing bs it spawned Pathfinder, and now that they’re trying it again Paizo has become their greatest legal opponent. Talk about past mistakes biting you in the ass…

[@rchriswells]

How hard is it to take existing DND 5e adventures and play using the PF 2E rule set?

[@simpu83]

I'd say easier than you might expect! you still can't do it on the fly unless you're super familiar with both games, but I think spending 10 minutes prepping an encounter is realistic. I can do a write up here if you want, but the TLDR is: 0. Use automatic bonus progression pf2e variant rule and milestone 1. Use DMG to gauge how hard a challenge is 2. Convert that difficulty to pf2e 3. Repeat step 1-2 f or all of campaign

[@rchriswells]

@@simpu83 Thanks!!!! I’d love to learn more about this in-depth if you had the time! I was thinking about converting Hoard of the Dragon Queen to PF2E and running it. How would you ensure monster encounters were similar (or at the very least, not too powerful)?

[@simpu83]

@@rchriswells Sure ^^, I'm gonna go over the stuff I did when I converted a few 5e one shots and dragon heist So firstly, I REALLY recommend automatic bonus progression and milestone. Pf2e balance is really tight, a small level difference can be a huge gap in power (plus all the magic item they may have). Both of these variant rules basically make sure the party is rarely overpowered or underpowered unless you really want them to. (This also frees you up to give any magic item you want) For converting encounters, pf2e's encounter builder is really balanced (at least from my experience). So, you don't need to worry too much about it as long as you know what you want out of each encounter. Is this goblin fight a moderate or severe threat? how about this dragon? etc. Although, something to keep in mind in pf2e, 1 big monster is generally more dangerous than many smaller ones. Which is the opposite of 5e, so you might want to consider that when converting. pf2e also doesn't have "daily exp budget". A lot of things that were limited use in 5e (barb rage, bard inspiration, ranger favored foe etc) have unlimited uses in pf2e. So you don't need to drain the PCs resources before a boss fight, the gap between a fully rested party and a somewhat tired one isn't as big in pf2e. For skill checks, what you do is determine how hard it is originally (IE DC 10 is easy and DC 20 is hard etc). Determine the level of the challenge (if you're arm wrestling a level 3 goblin, it's a level 3 challenge. If you're lying to a level 10 dragon, it's level 10 etc) and then consult the "level based DCs" table that pf2e has. For example, a DC 10 deception check to fool a level 10 dragon is a DC 22 Deception check in pf2e I think that's all, if you have questions don't be afraid to ask ^^

[@MrJojux]

One thing that is very important is also that 2e is better for a linear structure. In 5e a party can be quite capable to punch above their weight. So if they run into an encounter/dungeon that is supposed to be a lot stronger than them, in 5e they might be able to defeat and survive it. Especially at higher levels. In 2e, the players better run and come back later or have some amazing strategy. My party survived twice only because my ranger was 5ft faster than the enemy and was kiting the enemy until the rest of the group could stabilize, get up and heal themselves. If you want the more sandbox feeling, were level differences are not as relevant, you might want to check out the alternative rule "proficiency without level". But that also makes the game harder to balance.

[@johnharrison2086]

It's not hard if you have a bit of experience with TTRPGs. The question is why would you want to when PF2 adventure paths are far better designed?

[@Gurt_]

This video is boutta blow up lol

[@cooperb4449]

Great video my friend

[@stillmattwest]

If they ever make a PF2E video game people are going to get so freaking lost.

[@IcarusGames]

I think PF2 would work pretty well in a video game format. You have action points which translates to video games really easily, and the feats could be presented in a much less overwhelming manner by a team with decent UI experience.

[@seeker296]

The simplicity in 5e is premium, at least until it becomes a bit more common consciousness

[@DimiLeventis]

I think the XP rules in Pathfinder 2e are way better, but for the Crits in dice rolling, I still prefer the DnD 5e rules.

[@toxicteapot7941]

As a video game player, I absolutely hate the 1000 exp per level. I like my scaling exp. But there is a lot of other amazing stuff in pf2e. I just got into it and a lot of it sounds hyper fun.

[@Ellipellikaramelli]

great and simple explanation!

[@seanbeads6330]

I still dont understandd the difference between rolling

[@IcarusGames]

Rolling a 1 reduces your degree of success by 1. So for example, if you were trying to hit something with an AC of 10 and you had a +15 bonus to hit, even if you roll a 1, your total would be 16 which would normally be a hit, but because you rolled a natural 1, the degree of success is lowered by 1, so your hit turns into a miss. If you had a +19 to hit against AC 10, and rolled a 1, your total would be 20, which would normally be a critical success as its 10> the target number, but because you rolled a natural 1, the degree of success is lowered by 1, so your critical success turns into just a normal success.

[@seanbeads6330]

@@IcarusGames thats awesome, thank you sounds like great fun!

[@dankernut3750]

Here after OGL 1.1

[@Damion.Turner]

THREE ACTION ECONOMY!?

[@recless8667]

6:39 Not exactly the case if your group is agreeing to swap from D&D 5e to Pathfinder 2e at level 11..

[@IcarusGames]

For this situation, I'd recommend running a one shot at level one first to let them get to grips with character creation and the core gameplay loop without worrying about so many options.

[@recless8667]

@@IcarusGames that's a really good idea! Been meaning to run a one-shot / short campaign, and one of my groups is in a bit of a break. That would get the group back to regular gaming for a bit, and check my "not a forever-player" box at the same time

[@gnome6969]

What are some new or, at least, better-defined concepts that tPF2e seems to introduce? I found that mad alchemist bomber or a viable telekinetic psychic interesting, but I don't love it.

[@IcarusGames]

There's several things that I think PF2 takes and makes better defined. Firstly is the 3-action economy which gives a lot more flexibility with how to use your turn. In terms of character options; I personally love the Thaumaturge class, which is like an esoteric monster hunter that can exploit the vulnerabilities of monsters. From a mechanical point of view, the traits/keyword system makes rules reference and interaction great. It can take some getting used to to learn what the traits mean, but once you know it makes rules reference so easy.

[@cyrusvile6622]

Pathfinder 2nd edition, laughs in 1st edition 500+80 feats, everyone at table runs away in tears 😂

[@DannyGruesome]

So ive played pathfinder before. Would D&D feel like the same thing but with less rules and more free form?

[@ce5122]

It feels like an incredibly stripped down Pathfinder

[@asturias0267]

I don't get to play TTRPGs very often since I don't have a group to play with, but feats seem like one of the best parts of the game. Extra character customization and speccing into whatever niche you want is so cool and 5e doesn't utilize it well at all. Doesn't D&D 3.5e have a ton of feats? I haven't played it nor seen anyone run it but I've read some stuff about it a long time ago.

[@IcarusGames]

3.5 had an astonishing amount of feats (it was truly bonkers) and a lot of them were trees that required you to follow up the tree to get what you wanted. PF2 has a lot of feats, but most of them are not baked into feat trees, which makes choosing them a lot more flexible.

[@Youssii]

No time like the present to switch over I guess

[@joeveneklase711]

You said ability scores. I don’t see, can’t find, where you roll ability scores in PF2e. I’m from way back when it was just called AD&D. Do we really not roll ability scores at all?

[@IcarusGames]

Not as standard. The way it works in pf2 is your ancestry, class, and background all grant you boosts and you get a number of free boosts to spend at character creation too.

[@johnharrison2086]

Pathfinder 2e has far, far better design. Want to keep it simple? Play the Beginner Box first! There is no reason to play 5e D&D.

[@alextheeditor1278]

The only reason I haven’t tried out pathfinder is because I haven’t found any app like dnd beyond for it.

[@IcarusGames]

Pathfinder Nexus from Demiplane. It was developed by a bunch of former DDB staff and is a really nice way to consume the rules. The rules are all free on Archives of Nethys, but if you want that DDB feel, PFNexus is the one.

[@Dadsgotnoclue]

Yeah I think I’d prefer this way.. still looking for a UK based group to play with

[@gelatinouswyrm]

So is there a reason sidequest annual is 5e only?

[@IcarusGames]

The first 24 issues were 5e compatible. We didn't start making PF2 compatible content until issue 25.

[@gelatinouswyrm]

@@IcarusGames TY! I’ve been looking for some good PF2E supplemental stuff to expand that corner of my TTRPG library so I’ll def be checking it out!

[@Akaritomi]

Wonder how long it took for players to make pop culture builds. I'm guessing the first one was Guts from Berserk.

[@Grimscribe732]

While I like the buff to the chance to crit in Pathfinder, the system definitely takes away a lot of the excitement from rolling a nat20 or nat1. Also, while it is not a lot of math, it still slows the game down and makes it a little less fluid. Still, definitely a good alternative to 5e.

[@IcarusGames]

Instead of pure nat 20 excitement, you get some nat 20 excitement but also the excitement of hitting 10 over! Once my party's fighter got his 3rd or 4th crit in our first session he was sold on PF2!

[@garlottos]

A level -1 goblin shouldn't have a 5% chance to critically hit a level 20 hero, and a level 20 hero shouldn't have a 5% chance to critically fail to hit a level -1 goblin. Nat 20 and Nat 1 rules are dumb in 5e, but not in PF2e

[@IcarusGames]

@garlottos in Pathfinder monsters outside a couple levels of the APL are pretty much unusable because of how the numbers work. That's less the case in 5e due to bounded accuracy.

[@garlottos]

@@IcarusGames That's my point, though. Players should be able to go from barely being able to hit something to being unable to miss it. It shows the character growth and increase in power. But in 5e, whether you're level 1 or level 20, you have a 5% chance to critically miss, and a 5% chance to critically hit.

[@Mark73]

I don't think I've used XP since I've started playing 5e. Every DM I've had used milestone, just telling us when we level up. Do a lot of Pathfinder DMs use XP?

[@IcarusGames]

The XP and encounter building in PF2 just works so I don't see why I wouldn't use it.

[@andreazaltron6850]

unwanted constructive criticism: A speech has no need of background music. Unnecessary noise makes my listening comprehension much more difficult. Humans are not really good at multitasking, and if you force them to decode two audio signals at the same time, many will fail. As a person with musical education, my brain automatically try to decode the background music and excludes your voice. maybe you can make a video on movement during combat. 5e really suck at that you have convinced me to try Pathfinder 2e :)

[@Einrich]

D&D5 and most likely D&D One are not well supported if playing in French. Being in the EU, the support in FR just sucks too much under WOTC for the game to be be easy to DM. Paizo does a much better job to allow 3rd party content providers to support its game in more than one language. If Feats are in English only, my kids have a tougher time roleplaying. So after trying D&D5 - I am moving to PF in French.. I'll listen to your videos to learn PF2E faster

[@nosboss2091]

5e dm checking this out, pf2e seems like a ton of more work to make your own content for, the number of choices for your players add way more work for a DM to manage, not sold on this.

[@IcarusGames]

Totally valid assumption. Once you master the PF2 system it's not too much of a problem, but certainly while you are learning it the way the system puts information behind tags and traits, and requires you to go looking for things can be pretty overwhelming and lead to you missing a lot of information. It can also be completely overwhelming for players when it comes time to level up and they have to look through the list of hundreds of options again. The wealth of choices in combat can be amazing, but if you're not feeling fully on the ball as a player its much easier to settle into the same 3-4 actions all night and ignore everything else.

[@nosboss2091]

​@IcarusGames Thank you for the quick response, guess I'll dive a lil deeper 😂

[@IcarusGames]

@@nosboss2091 My recommendation is if you and you're table are playing 5e and enjoying it, and there's not glaring things that you dislike about the system, just keep playing 5e. If you actively want to move away from 5e but keep playing HEROIC fantasy as a genre, then you've got options. • Tales of the Valiant is going to give you very much a 5e experience with just some tweaks and adjustments, and it's not made by WotC (which is reason enough for some folks). • Pathfinder is very mechanised. It has rulings for pretty much everything, which can be a good or bad thing (often within the same session). It gives a lot of choice to players in character creation and at the table, but requires more work from the players too to make the most of those options. • DC20 from the Dungeon Coach is like if 5e and PF2 has a baby. It keeps a lot of the core principles of 5e, but brings in some of PF2s design ideas through action points, degrees of success, and (more limited) expansion of player choice.

[@nosboss2091]

@IcarusGames thank you for taking the time to lay it out a bit, as a DM I'm satisfied but dnd5e is all I know. My current campaign will end in 6 months and I wanted to have a look at diff TTRPGs mainly for my players cuz I homebrew alot to keep their focus atm :D

[@ce5122]

@@nosboss2091 Homebrewing in PF2e is easier and more enriching. Their monster creation tools are very good and the system is strong so you can put a lot into your monsters without breaking your game.

[@davida.7967]

Is mutlticlassing as easier in pathfinder?

[@IcarusGames]

Yeah, it's replaced with the Archetype system. Any time you would get a class feat, you can instead take an archetype feat. There are some restrictions, but it makes for a much more overall fluid system that allows you to make more niche and interesting character concepts. My personal favourite is the wrestler archetype that lets you perform a variety of classic wrestling moves like the suplex.

[@Dandizz]

Pathfinder/Starfinder are my preferred games.

[@IcarusGames]

One day I'll get to play Starfinder 😅 the stars just never align for me and that game!!

[@unit586]

I still prefer D&D. It’s where my allegiance lies 😊

[@alzathoth]

IMO the character classes are better. an artificer is an amazing class with infusions and spellcasting. an inventor in PF2 is a really boring crafter with gizmos that explode and no spellcasting. the basic damage for weapons and spells is just mediocre at best. the action economy is simple and good. the character backgrounds and ancestries are interesting. the only way i think i could play my vision of an artificer in PF would be a wizard class with a background in tinkering and some sort of gunsmithing, allowing the PC to cast spell through his revolver. IDK.

[@ce5122]

Picking on Inventor is pretty low hanging fruit when every other class is more interesting than their dnd counterparts and they have more classes. If you wanted to play a swashbuckler character you’d have to do a rogue subclass that barely gives any features meanwhile there is an entire dedicated class to it in PF2e.

[@greasysmith3150]

Pf2 and 5e arent my jam, i vastly prefer pre-WOTC D&D, but this is a pretty good video

[@nikkothegoblin]

Looking at Pf2e since DnD's content license changes looks quite anti-creator

[@Sabowie]

GARBAGE DAY! -Ricky Caldwell

[@bbedeschi]

graphing was neat lol

[@nickzhaosun]

WOTC pissd me off. That's why I'm here. Nonetheless this looks really promising.

[@IGDNews]

Ok I don't think you read combat correctly, only feats or spells with status effects or saving throw will have the degree of success, straights combat does not.

[@IcarusGames]

Critical hits?

[@IGDNews]

@@IcarusGames fumble only applies to what character taking action out side of combat, so for combat or striking is miss, hit or crit. That is at my table. Never fumbled on a miss

[@IcarusGames]

@@IGDNews But a 1 still reduces your degree of success, even in combat, so the degrees of success still exist, they just might not have any additional impact.

[@IGDNews]

@@IcarusGames Yeah that works too. I think using an attack as an example was a poor choice. Better would of been using a feat, spell with an effect or how saving throws would work are better choice to demonstrate what you were trying to explain.

[@beersontap]

Love your channel. But i cant even look at D&D 5th ed....power creep is out of control.

[@rotierender_lurch]

I heard a lot about DnD but after the ongoing shitshow I'll consider Pathfinder.

[@davidpeacock8276]

Interesting

[@maddym.5466]

One is easier for me to understand o/

[@DiomedesRangue]

I've been a player in both, and they feel similar for obvious reasons. I probably wouldn't choose to play in a 5e game again, but I would play in a pathfinder 2e game. 5e becomes pretty bad after like 5th level, but I didn't get that high in pathfinder 2e, so I'm not sure if it's the same (I got to 3 in pathfinder 2e)

[@IcarusGames]

I think from my POV on the GM side, the levels 1-5 play in my 5e game were probably my favourite too. I think the system is much better suited to those smaller, more human stories you tend to get at those levels. Once you get into the higher level play, the mechanics can't seem to support the fantasy as well. I've heard from a lot of people that PF2 holds up well at higher levels, so I'm looking forward to that!

[@aurvay]

This was actually informative, thank you! I was intrigued by the 3-action system but now I know why I should never even bother trying Pf2 - most of its features are actually bugs for me.

[@mirieus]

Pf2 is DnD 4e + nerfed spells

[@sortehuse]

There are no critical critical failures D&D 5e. That's just wrong.

[@IcarusGames]

Rolling a 1 in combat is always a miss. The rules text calls it an automatic failure rather than critical failure, but that's a matter of semantics. There are also some optional rules for expanding the effects of automatic failures in the "Resolution and Consequences" section of chapter 8 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

[@sortehuse]

@@IcarusGames It not semantics. You even describe what a Critical Failure is in the video. The automatic failure you get from rolling a 1 in combat is not worse than rolling a normal failure and in skill checks and saving throws there is no automatic failure. If you say something wrong just own up to it.

[@IcarusGames]

In the base rules, no there's nothing worse about rolling a 1 (in most instances) vs a normal failure in combat. But a lot of tables play with fumble rules, and a lot of tables do play with automatic failures on natural 1s outside of combat, which is why it's showed up in some of the playtest material for One D&D.

[@RicardoPM777]

👏👏👏👏