How Disney is RUINING Fantasy Villains

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

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[@abcdef27669]

“When every villain is just misunderstood, moral victories are hollow”. Best quote in the video.

[@stephenfitzgerald9769]

The idea of the Villain choosing evil- even when they know it’s wrong- immediately reminded me of Griffith, from _Berserk._ Hear me out: Kentaro Miura (RIP) did something amazing with that character. Throughout the Golden Age Arc, he made Griffith a sympathetic antagonist (and the protagonist’s best friend) whose motivations we understood and often even agreed with. When he finally fell from grace, we were heartbroken. But when he _chose_ to become the villain, all that sympathy melted like wax. Like the protagonist, our pity and sorrow were replaced by a hell-storm of rage. It’s so well done that lots of people outside of the manga and anime spheres know who Griffith is and what _Berserk_ is. And I don’t know of anyone who has read the story that doesn’t still want Griffith to pay- no matter how tragic his life was before he chose to embrace evil.

[@Zenkujo]

It'd be interesting to know how many of hollywood's story-writers are all alumni of the same institutions.

[@kewanzahedinour7304]

True, that would be interesting and good to know!

[@abcdef27669]

When I write villains, I like to read about real dictators from history. Even if they were human, you still can fight pure, unapologetic evil behind their actions, just because they knew no one would punish them for doing it.

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

Yes, there is a lot of inspiration to take from history for that - unfortunately.

[@bluejayblaze1180]

Sometimes writing a straight-up evil character is just a lot of fun. The drama, the scenery chewing, the ability to have them respond to the hero's impassioned speech with "Yes, I did all that. Your point?" No pleading, no excuses, no ambiguity about their actions, just presence, style, and me automatically imagining them having the voice of Jeremy Irons playing Scar in the Lion King.

[@gabrielzinho3230]

This is something I've been dealing with in my own stories. The first character arch has villains who are not evil, just have different goals than the protagonist. The second arch involves a pure evil villain, who makes otherwise enemies band together to fight him.

[@jamestipton3342]

I for one think that constantly trying to rehashing classic villains in an attempt to humanize them takes away the point of a good vs evil story in contrast to a law vs chaos story.

[@abcdef27669]

Unpopular opinion: Yzma is more interesting as antagonist than Maleficent.

[@Dragonmoon1598]

You're not wrong. But, Yzma is more developed, two dimensional. Maleficent is more one dimensional, generic evil fairy/witch.

[@R.P-e2z]

Yzma is a petty bitch who realized what she was at an early age and, instead of embarking on a journey of self-improvement, she decided to be a petty bitch with ridiculous plans who gleefully chewed the scenery to bits. She's fun to watch, but it's still satisfying when the heroes defeat her. Maleficent (1959) is more of a narcissist: a petty bitch who takes her pettiness *deadly* serious and metes out severe punishment for tiny slights.

[@davidmauriciogutierrezespi5244]

This reminds me of OUAT, I believe it was Cruella who was asked why she did what she did and basically said _I wanted to_ and gave no further context. I mean, good if you want to make villians who you understand, like Magneto, but sometimes seeing someone who just enjoys evil is a good thrill. Not everyone needs a motivation or a tragic backstory, as well as not every villian needs a redemption arc

[@caecusproductions3056]

Yeah, that show did very well making some of the bad guys complex and strong (but still vile) while keeping some just simply evil.

[@Consolous]

This topic is complicated because in the end, it comes down to what kind of villain the story needs and what the story is about. For the most part, I do agree but there are situations where a villain with a sad backstory makes the story more interesting. Like Pain/Nagato from Naruto Shippuden. He did horrible things and even betrayed his old monster. Killer a whole village, but when Naruto decides to ask him his story, it turns out to be a tragic story which in this case makes Naruto's story more compelling because he chooses not to do the same even when Pain made him and his people suffer so much. Basically breaking the cycle of pain which was the main point of that storyline. But generally speaking, your point stands in most stories

[@caecusproductions3056]

Sauron considering redemption comes from JRRT. It is in the Silmarillion and Morgoth’s Ring noted that he had a chance to turn back after Melkor was beaten plus that Sauron was not originally evil is noted in the first Lord of the Rings novel. Moreover when the live action stuff is taken in context (with season 2), it becomes clear that in the context of the live action stuff, that was all an act/his view of healing the world is so twisted that his plan is basically to enslave everyone into doing whatever he decides is best and makes his ego happy.

[@aetherial87]

Honestly with how prevalent the Justified Evil trope has become, I can't help but think it's just an attempt to legitimize horrible selfish behavior.

[@KalpanaWorlds]

I think a good example too is the Joker. The Joker was more compelling when we had little tid bits from things that he would say, we didn't know the truth and knew he probably lied for dramatic effect; that to me was part of the fun about the Joker. When they made a movie specifically about his backstory the Joker went from an insane master manipulator to a weird loser you feel sorry for.

[@janeyrevanescence12]

The musical Wicked (and the Gregory MacGuire novel that inspired it) is credited with doing the “terrible villain of a classic story is actually a misunderstood victim of the other characters” first…but what made it work is how they handled the characters. Elphaba (the Wicked Witch of the West) still does the evil things she does in the classic L Frank Baum novel and MGM film “The Wizard of Oz”. Yes, she’s sympathetic and we get to see her try to do good only to have it blow up in her face until she basically says “If they want me to be a monster…then I will be a monster”. It doesn’t excuse her actions. She’s a victim and you can feel sorry for her…but the stories both make sure you know that she did evil things. And Disney missed the memo.

[@thoughtslikerabbits953]

Despicable me: Gue's backstory is that he chose to be evil because he wanted his mom to be proud of him. He stopped because he found something to be good for. None of the other villains in the franchise have tragic backstories, except Bratt, and none of them were redeemed. Megamind: the core concept was the question of nature vs nurture. Metroman was a hero because that's what people expected of him and he faked his death so that he could find his own purpose in life. Megamind was evil because that's what people expected of him and lost the only purpose he had. Tighten was a "nice guy" who thought that he deserved the girl because he was the new "hero", he turned on everyone when she rejected him. He was the true villain of the movie and was completely irredeemable.

[@georgecook83]

Society is so “me” focused now that having evil be represented by only caring about what you want might not work.

[@sime1071]

Sometimes a story where they try to make a classic villian into a more compelling one can actually work, like with Catra from She-Ra reboot (for me, at least) or Todd Phillips' Joker. But I think they work because, as you say, making a good villian or antagonist is about choices, not circunstances. They didn't really just take a classic story and add a tragic backstory to the villain, they actually tried to make them more complex, with the public understanding the villain actions but not justifying them. Catra's motives are related to the abuse she suffered from Shadow Weaver all her life, but the show actually show that she's bad because the choices she made, and her redemption arc is about her finding out that her selfish decisions make more bad than good and her trying to repair all the damage that she did and try to go the right way. With Arthur Fleck, instead, at least in the first movie, the interesting about his character isn't the tragic backstory itself, but his descent into madness to the point of no return where there is no redemption arc... Again, let's just ignore that the sequel exists 😅 Good video, I just wanted to add my point of view.

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

Appreciate the insights and feedback - thank you 🙂 I actually haven't watched the reboot of She-Ra yet because I couldn't even get myself to finish the He-Man reboot (as much as I was looking forward to it). Maybe I should give it a try again and see if I still find it to be subpar.

[@hadeshades2365]

Tartarus is the “bad guy” of the main cast. His brutality and confidence in his abilities is everywhere. His vulnerability are those he cares about and protects them fiercely. In one of the scenes he orders orbital bombardment on all mayor population hubs of a planet and later on searches for any surviving life. It’s not that he has no choice. Theoretically they could un zombify lightly infected individuals and protect the humans but instead he gives them a quick death. An antagonist in the story is just power hungry. First he frames another character for the R*** on his wife to distance her from him so he can better influence the husband and take advantage of him and the resources he has access to. In the ensuing chaos he ensures that Tartarus kills the antagonists boss so he could take the position. Overall my test readers love Tartarus for the loyalty and care he shows around those he cares about.

[@trajan2995]

I think that the problem are semantics. There are just villains and villains, two different types of characters. There is first type of villain let's say "classic villain". His evil is not explained, just showed he is more force of nature than a person. And there is second type, "modern villain" that is a hero of his own story. We see that he is a victim of circumstances, choosing evil because he thinks that is the best option. Both types are so different that it's almost degrading to compare them. Recently I found a fanfic that reframes Sauron as the second type and you konw what? He is still threatening, but at the same time we can sympathise with him. But maybe its strange case, because he is kinda main character there. Still great video, just wanted to share my thoughts.

[@Fantropolis]

Sadly, it's not about story to them. Its about market. They can sell a villain better if they lean more good.

[@SCPilot]

I’m surprised you didn’t mention the villain from the movie Wish. I did like Megamind and Despicable Me MCs as they made the character development and arc of the villain soon to be hero’s transformation believable and it made sense. Still, you made a lot of good points. Still, I wish you had made talked about the villain from Wish. :P

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

I've only read about Wish and seen trailers so far - so didn't feel substantial enough to include for me. Cannot read and watch everything after all - as much as I'd want to sometimes 🙂

[@TreyStation64]

Honestly, you're absolutely right.

[@liljenborg2517]

These are stories written by people who dislike if not utterly loathe the idea of SIN. They don't want evil to be a matter of OUR CHOICES. They promulgate a worldview that dismisses individual choice and subordinates it to group identity. They believe that the "wicked", the criminal, the villain only exist because they have been MADE that way by some form of oppression. They are VICTIMS of an oppressive (prejudiced, racist, discriminatory) society - a society that is usually a fairly thinly veiled caricature of ours (see the upcoming movie based on the musical based on the book). They want to sell our whole culture on the idea that the people we consider "wicked" are acting out against an inherently unfair capitalist system, and inherently racist cultural system, an oppressive political system, and a backwards, closed-minded religious system. Thus their wickedness is not only understandable, but JUSTIFIED by the unjust system they are acting out against.

[@Dragonmoon1598]

It's a double-edged sword. People are tired of villains who are evil just because. But, as you pointed out, most villains are created from tragic pasts: lies, abuse, betrayal, bullying (Steven Kings Carrie). More interesting is the villain who perceives themselves as the hero. It's not a matter of justifying their actions, but creating an approch to their villainis nature beyond evil creatures more evil.

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

The main problem for me is really the "let's make them misunderstood and tragic" rather than "evil, understandable, yet still not acceptable" 🙂

[@novan3cuadras467]

You loss me with sauron... maybe watch s2 and learn more about his ways to manipulate....

[@BlackVampyr]

Sauron, in RoP, especially in S2's whole thing, isn't really how smart or cunning he is, but how dumb others were. For me, unfortunately, it didn't really work.

[@douglasphillips5870]

This is fine if the goal is good vs evil. Watching anime has shown a lot of stories that aren't good v evil, but people caught in antagonistic positions. Watch any Gundam series. The real villain is war and the people fighting it become pawns in conflicts beyond their control.