How Do We Feel About Mid-Century Pop?

Peter and Adam throw in their 2 cents on Adam Neely's newest video about the incredible Laufey's rise to stardom in today's jazz climate. What are your thoughts on this musician's career? How does this change the way we look at jazz?
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[@Xlornick]

The best part of Adam's commentary for me was the "Village Vanguard is still open" and "or you can just tune into Emmet's Place" bit. Laufrey, who only recently attended her first actual jazz gig, and a lot of her young fans, seem to think jazz is past tense, something to be rummaged through, or even saved from the throes of death, my god! That can't be further from the truth, as this community knows all too well. Jazz is thriving as much as it can in this ridiculous modern world. There's a ton of great artists out there playing incredible music and never has it been more accessible than now.

[@pianopeter]

well said 👊🏼

[@Xlornick]

@@pianopeter Thanks! Love the work y'all do.

[@joeBloggs-yo6jw]

But it was very fine for Laufey to say she was "transported" by that Bill Evan's record... just in the same way people get transported reading an old book... why Adam got hung up on and concentrated on a commonly used phrase I don't know. personally I've seen all the modern jazz acts over the last 30 years, even got to know many as personal friends and I am still transported by old records... good on Laufey!

[@Xlornick]

@@joeBloggs-yo6jw I think Adam understood what she meant, like we all did. That Bill Evans record DOES transport you. Don't think Adam is saying it doesn't. The point he is making is that the Vanguard is still there and if you want to experience jazz in the exact same space, you can do so right now. I've been there a couple times, and just walking into the joint is like walking into a different world. The point isn't necessarily directed towards her, as much as the general argument that comes up periodically levied by people who know nothing about the current jazz saying jazz is dead and/or needs saving. Jazz is perfectly fine. It's probably never going to appeal to the masses and that's okay. It's not necessarily supposed to. That doesn't stop the millions worldwide who study, play, practice, and enjoy this music. I agree with Patrick Bartley, it's POP that needs saving. Laufey has a better chance at saving that world than jazz. She'll also make more money doing so.

[@richarddoan9172]

Laufey went to Berklee. I think she knows jazz is still a thing.

[@sat.chid.ananda]

i like patrick bartley's take on this where he says it's POP that needs saving, not jazz, since there's more people playing and learning jazz now more than ever.

[@pianopeter]

Patrick's vid is excellent --> kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZnEiZqgqtmLh5o

[@JanPrze]

It’s not really true though, is it?

[@AstroSully]

@@JanPrzeI agree with his take. Jazz is still alive and kicking. Just because something isn’t mainstream doesn’t mean it’s not doing well. I also believe his quote is trying to say that Jazz can most definitely help boost Pop in a creative and soundness sense.

[@aranzabonanza7231]

​@AstroSully honestly I feel the opposite way. Pop has always been a changing art form. Pop was jazz, then rock, then grunge, then emo, and now hip hop. Jazz in its current form is at best niche, and at worst an academic exercise in self fellating. What gives Pat the right to call the masses uneducated and needing saving? Seems like an ivory tower pov honestly and it reeks of jazz elitism. I don't think more people are playing jazz. I think more people are playing music in general and that leads to growth of jazz by extension but not necessarily that jazz is growing.

[@AstroSully]

You're comparing a genre that has no rules to a specific niche genre. Listen to the radio today and you can't tell me a lot of the sound lacks creativity and versatility. What made Pop great was that it was the melting point to all of the other genres together. It's sadly not that anymore IMO. That's why I said Pop needs Jazz more than Jazz needs Pop. Jazz never will need what Pop has to offer. @@aranzabonanza7231

[@therationalpiper7428]

You said they may "just be becoming Laufey fans", but as long as youtube, apple music, spotify, etc. view Laufey as jazz, the algorithm will push more jazz related content to her fans. They will certainly click on some of that content and if only a small percentage of her fans end up liking what we may define as jazz, that's a big win.

[@KalebPeters99]

This is a great point!

[@pianopeter]

What may happen is that YT algorithm pushes jazz-related content to Laufey viewers, and IF they watch and enjoy, then the algorithm will keep pushing jazz to all Laufey viewers. So the power is in fact in the viewers?

[@therationalpiper7428]

Right. She's getting millions of views. A jazz musician who sells 1000 albums is "successful". Hopefully a tiny fraction of Laufey fans will become fans of more str8ahead style. Maybe we'll see a few musicians that are still "jazz" but who lean toward entertainment that could capitalize on this. Specifically I'm thinking of someone like Grace Kelly. Remember most of the big stars in the golden era... people you were likely to see on TV or in a movie... Sarah, Ella, Louis Armstrong's famous vocal recordings, etc. were vocalists and I think they drew a larger audience, some of whom became fans of the great instrumentalists in the 50s-60s.@@pianopeter

[@AstroSully]

I think it works well in both ways. If they label her as pop the influence of her sound does so much more for the pop genre than it would for the Jazz genre.

[@jontalbot1]

I don’t think the algorithm will be sending Laufey fans any Coltrane, Davs, Brubeck etc - let alone contemporary artists who inhabit a completely different space. Most likely is Norah Jones, Jamie Callum, Harry Cornick who ploughed a similar furrow a generation ago

[@lunaverse4977]

I think it's fun that when Adam started talking about genre being more about the people and the culture than the music, he was unintentionally summing up the final thesis statement on Adam's (OTHER Adam) video. That Laufey isn't jazz or not jazz just because of her music itself, but that there is a disconnect between her and most of her audience and the larger jazz culture. And because he hadn't watched the video all the way through yet I think he thought what he was syaing was a counterpoint to adam (neely) when it actually alligned quite well. ps: GALA X10

[@gayraccoon3159]

fr he literally made points that Adam Neely made and was getting offended by things because he didn't hear the full context. Kind of frustrating tbh

[@everettgiesbrecht779]

Agreed - I was confused when Adam Manness straight up said at the start that he hadn’t watched the full Neely video, and it really shows throughout the video when he brings up criticisms that Neely does directly address (if you watch the full Neely video). Big fan of the podcast in general, but that makes this one a bit of a miss for me

[@eddiehavens6409]

GALA X 10. Thank you for the discussion! Reminds me of a quote i think Louis Armstrong said. “if you have to ask what jazz is, you’ll never know”.

[@stephaniemoura9325]

As a Brazilian Gen Z, Laufey’s music sounds like Bossa Nova inspired pop to me, so much of those elements that makes my brain go like “ahhh some Tom Jobim influence moment going on here”. And it makes me extremely sad to see people my age and younger or older think that it’s a new spin to Jazz without knowing the history and where where these amazing style comes from 🇧🇷🇧🇷. Thankfully I wasn’t introduced to jazz or bossa nova like many are being today, I was just lucky I grew up listening to it 💃🏻

[@RC-qf3mp]

Yes, I hear a lot of bossa nova elements in her music, and it’s a related question of whether and to what extent bossa nova is jazz, or a part of jazz, or just totally different from jazz.

[@JamieMartinGagnon]

GALA X 10 Man, we've been having this conversation for years. People are constantly asking "What kind of music do you play?" I't so hard to pigeon hole music. We were trying to come up with something in terms of a way to market ourselves. We came up with Vintage Americana, and then Mid-Century Pop, which is when we found this podcast. We do mostly originals, definitely blues based, but it swings, it's jazzy, it even has flavors of old R&B ballads. I mean what do you call that? We don't know. I once had the honor of playing with B.B. King and this subject came up. He said "Ain't nothin' original. Ain't nobody stealin' nothin'. We all just borrowin'." I think he was right.

[@grooveguv]

I was also alerted to Live from Emmet's Place by Adam Neely's rant-but-not-so-much-of-a-rant about Laufey and jazz. The very first one I saw was Samara Joy, and I was blown away. Ditto for Cyrille Aimée and Dan Wilson... After listening to these guys (I also downloaded Emmet's solo works from Apple Music), I believe that a structured melody and harmony form is the main thing that separates what vocalist like Aimée snd Joy from the popularized (and somewhat diluted) jazz that vocalists like Laufey. Listen to the original recording of "What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life", and the somewhaat rigid structure of Legrand, cleanliness of the vocals, lack of improvised melody (like Ella Fitzgerald's "Misty" when she moves from one note to the other when there is a longish rest in between), contrasting with the, say, Jim Tomlinson and Stacey Kent, or Kandace Springs. Having said that, the "labeling" of this or that does not matter at the end of the day, if someone goes ahead and tries to find "Misty", ending up with one of the greats and becomes a fan of Ella Fitzgerald or Sarah Vaughan, I would say "mission accomplished."

[@jard1n258]

As a new gen z jazz fan (Galax10), i fully endorse the things u guys say bc it seriously resonates with how i've been able to get into jazz! I've been hooked onto 'live at Emmets place' and I love listening to classic records by Bill Evans and other cats; and Laufey was somewhat of a gateway to that path (even tho i liked jazz through j-pop, lofi jazz and other fusion genres). Either way, Laufey is amazing and i cannot wait to attend my first night at a jazz club!

[@honeybee4316]

Jazz is a language. If you want to learn any language you need to listen to others speak it, learn vocabulary, & emerse yourself in the culture & history. There's nothing wrong with musicians incorporating jazz into their own fusion sound. Just don't claim to be jazz musician if you haven't spent any time learning the language or you'll get called out like a hip hop artist whos never been to the hood. Respect the culture, simple as that.

[@xuxolight]

But we have hugeee amount of hiphop artist that have never been in the hood. That just grew up listening to the music. Are they not hip hip because of that? Even if they have the lyrics, the beat and the punchlines? Rap was gate keeping in the past and now it's more open because it had too, because art can't be kept into this rigid structures. Jazz is so rigid and so gatekept that is the reason so little people listen to it. They are too focused on being an elite, a "hard to get in genre." That needs to change, or jazz will eventually die. Disrupture is needed for growth and for improving

[@cyc20976]

dude, Laufey literally went to Berklee music school, so she did study it.

[@zdogg8]

@@cyc20976 Jazz has become the hobby of rich kids who's parents can afford Berkeley or the equivalent. That's harsh, but mostly the reality. Jazz clubs in Manhattan are filled with jazz bros, or jazzbos or muzos..(and a few female participants) ..take your pick of terms, but a bunch of guys into jazz like guys are into video games, and the people on the stand are playing to impress those folks, IOW, jazzbos impressing each other. And that world, inclusive of Berkeley, is somewhat insular. Jazz was, is, and always will be elitist, and before it was elite talent, now it is people who can afford jazz school tuition. Admittedly broad brushing here, and a bit harsh, but is that not the case, at least quite a bit? It's not the fault of younger players that jazz is not as mainstream as it had been, so "working your way" up in the jazz life is perhaps not a possibility, but the music lacks grit and soul because now it is "of the academy."

[@shlecko]

​@@zdogg8This is what Jazz shouldn't be, and Jazz elitism is stupid as hell. I'm gonna try to bring back friendly Jazz in my hometown and city if I can. Hahhhhhhh....

[@zdogg8]

@@shlecko Anything at the highest level has at least an element of elitism, the NYC jazz scene is for the "elite" performers, and that is not a pejorative, it simply describes the highest echelon. But who comprises that "highest echelon" has probably changed.

[@calkig]

I know "we don't like labels" but I can say as someone trying to learn as much as I can about vocabulary and language for my own playing, the classification of certain branches or traditions within the music is super helpful for exploring for sounds I love and want to incorporate into my own playing. It's super useful for starting out with focused study as a younger player. Obviously as you get older you can expand the elements, but as someone who loves the sound of certain styles it allows me to explore and learn the specific thing I want to at the moment in a focused/deliberate way.

[@noneofyourbusiness7658]

"...there will be an imagined version of jazz culture that’s created that i fear will push away the culture that’s already there". Now wether you share that fear or not, I wish you had adressed it as it is the main point of Adam's video. Still, always love to tune in and hear your perspectives.

[@fastlane1409]

Thank you Adam Manes for being so inclusive. Respect!🤩 When I saw the video of Adam Neely, I had the same reaction as you. Let us explore and grow as musicians, without the hovering gate keepers. We are all just trying to balance humbleness with joy. When I was in high school, an 86 year old harmony teacher told us: “The more you learn, the more humble you become”.

[@frenchef7]

GALAx10 I think that the point Adam (Edit: Neely :) ) was trying to make is not about what is jazz, but rather about the fact that it doesn't "need saving", and the fact that some people in Laufey's vicinity claim so is because they are removed from the community.

[@ElbowsUnique]

Why does it seem like everyone is missing this point.

[@xuxolight]

I think there's a missing understanding of semantics about this. The concept of Jazz needs saving is because it is one of the least mainstream genres. It's no about the music being dead but about losing its place in the mainstram to the point of new generations being little to not interested in it. I haven't had listened to jazz in a whole decade until her came out and then my Spotify was recommending me more jazz artist and singers. I feel that jazz circles are so deep into their bubble that they ignore the dynamics that make music popular and mainstream in the first place, and how the genre grow and evolve with generations.

[@frenchef7]

​@@xuxolight Fair point, in that regard, it's obviously great that artists of the genre get new exposure. Also, it's great that audiences that didn't get a chance to find their way into music they could actually love are given a guide and a soft transition into it. I've only seen this from Adam's perspective so I'm not really informed on how it is viewed from the more general public point of view. However, I would still say that the encouragement to the "outside circle" could be more of "hey check this great thing you weren't aware of" instead of taking it as a "cause". Also, I think that the internet and social media and all created a lot of globalization in the sense that while locally some genres are small (jazz, metal, etc.) they form a big enough global community. I think this has lead to artists loosing interest in the mainstream and just doing the thing they're passionate about.

[@RuthvenMurgatroyd]

​@@ElbowsUnique Because the route his argument takes is essentially "1. Laufey isn't really jazz, 2. real jazz is being ignored by this narrative in adulation of her, 3. she's not saving jazz." His argument wasn't simply"jazz was doing just fine without her".

[@Orlando-wn4uc]

I really enjoy the warmth from Peter and Adam. Specifically about enjoying music that you love and finding a community that enjoys the same thing.

[@brianrinckenberger6265]

GALA x 10. Love the shoutout for the Live at Emmet’s Place Performances. I’ve been saying for a few years that those performances will someday be held in the same regard as the famous live recordings from the 50’s and 60’s- Live at The Village Vanguard, etc.

[@brookehardy2003]

GREAT VID! Was hoping to find an outer voice alongside that gents vid. You giys are great. Entertaining. Fun to listen to. Subscribed. Gala ×10

[@PDDave-jy3vk]

GALA x 10 . Always educational and fair. What more can you ask for :)

[@eosborne6495]

I think the disconnect is that within the jazz community, we are expected to be at least somewhat conversant in a lot of different styles of jazz. Everyone has their personal favorites, but a bebop fan who knows absolutely nothing about bossa wouldn’t be considered a very serious jazz fan. But of course all the different subgenres of jazz sound REALLY different from each other. Fusion doesn’t really have any sonic characteristics in common with stride. I have some nephews who are in their early 20s, squarely Gen Z. And they just really like bossa and mid century pop. I played them some bebop to see if they’d like it, and it’s just not what they’re into. Bossa is trending, bebop isn’t, because they are totally different sounds. So now we’re judging Gen Z because they like Laufey but not Emmet Cohen, and they just don’t see it that way, because why would they consider those the same genre if they don’t sound the same and one is a “cool” sound and the other isn’t?

[@machinate]

GALAx10 - Laufey is definitely good for jazz I feel, but they're also good for jazz influences flowing into other genres in general.

[@MechaGV]

GALA X10! I'm enjoying the discussions about Laufey going around recently. I think the point about getting away from the mindset of making labels and putting artists and genres in boxes needs to be made more often!

[@Millsmillsmills]

Great great vid, loved Neely’s and many others speaking about Laufey, and where she stands, especially where Patrick Bartley spoke about it, mentioning saving pop not jazz

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

GALA x10 I always enjoy these conversations with you guys. Great stuff!

[@michaelbarker6460]

I think Adam might be overplaying the "just play what you love" idea. In one sense of course that can be true insofar as its true for you. But its also bordering on basically useless as a concept. Maybe it has to do with the fear of killing creativity or leading to stereotyping or whatever else but at bottom it just doesn't mean anything. Not to get too philosophical but the reason we have categories including the category of musical genres is because that's exactly how language works in the first place. There's no actually boundary lines anywhere in nature and even if there were they would only be momentary because everything is in constant flux and change. But we humans have the remarkable ability to imagine distinct boundaries and then distinct objects which fall into distinct categories of things all of which are concepts in our own minds that we can give a label to. For instance we can hold a clump of clay that has been practically burnt to a crisp and call it a brick. We can stack these bricks on top of each other then call it a wall. We can make it really long then call it a fence or put up four walls then seal off the top with a roof and call it a house. Once we move in and become familiar with it we can call it home. Its still all just burnt and hardened clay, there is no such things as walls or houses or fences in nature. Its all just different arrangements of the same thing. HOWEVER We use language to name those different arrangements because its very very useful for us to do so. Its in fact what makes us human and is how we can progressively make more concepts which lead to hopefully more useful things. So even though its true that you can show up to your first brick laying job and say things like "it's all just clay man, does it really matter what we call it, its all just clay, theres no right or wrong way to play with clay" it will just show others that you're not a very useful employee. They need you to understand what a wall is in detail and know how to construct any size that the plans call for. They need you to know the difference between different styles of brick laying and different artistic styles because that's what the expectation is of their customers. This is already becoming waaay longer than I intended but I hope the comparison to music isnt to hard to see from the above examples. Whatever opinion we have about music and what we think it should be is entirely besides what the majority think it is and how it should be categorized. This really hasn't been an issue in musical genres up to this point in time. There was Baroque then classical then romantic period music where the boundaries are very fuzzy between the genres but nevertheless are very useful for people to use. They want to refer to a particular thing, a particular style of music and they need a word for it. Its as simple as that. There ultimately isn't any definitive definition to any of that categorization but that doesnt mean its not useful. Jazz isn't an exception and its not even up to the people that invented it or consider it an important part of their existence in the first place. Its up to all of society that uses the same language to categorize it in a way that's useful. People might not for instance want to hear what they think is random squeaking and squawking on a saxophone but instead what they heard in a French Noir film. They dont care what Charlie Parker thought his music should be called or how far out it should extend to include other music, all people want is to know what that sound is called so it can be a useful distinction between other sounds they recognize. Ones "early bebop", the other is "cool jazz". Then they can say "Great, early bebop all sounds the same to me, not a huge fan, but this cool jazz stuff I really like, now I know which is which." Someone trying to convince them otherwise isn't going to work. If the masses recognize it as a distinct thing and have a name for it, its going to stick going forward because its useful that way. Romanticizing jazz to be whatever is in your heart is going to end badly for those that really believe that because fewer and fewer people care about the past and are focused on what is happening in the now. Thats what jazz exactly was, something invented in the now, but over 100 years ago. We're in a different now where young people are creating what's meaningful to them and is a lifestyle for them. This is just how it works and has worked for centuries and millenia of using language and classifying things into different categories. Ok thanks for reading my TED talk, bye.

[@adammaness]

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I agree with much of what you’re saying here. However, as a teacher, I see way more people stuck in convention without the freedom of creative expression that beginners mind gives us. As you say, it’s human nature to categorize. We don’t really need to teach that. We love little boxes and putting things in them and labeling them. We do, however, need to remind ourselves on the regular that all rules are arbitrary and should be bent and broken as we explore. Of course, we need to learn the conventions. But again, I almost never need to remind folks of that. Btw, pretty everything I say on this show is me reminding myself of things I want to work on. I get stuck in convention and genre and need to wake myself up to the freedom of limitless possibilities every day. I also love bebop, functional harmony, and counterpoint so 🤷‍♂️

[@birdlives829]

Love the Neely reaction

[@donlakakwaaijazz5220]

This type of discussion needs to be updated; from jazz history, anyone selling tons of records gets despised and labelled a sell-out or none jazz. All borders on jealousy. Jazz cannot remain a dinosaur of the arts. If we accept labels like Swing, Bee Bop, Hard Bop, Free Jazz, Cuban Jazz, and Japanese Jazz, why can't we get the new development of this art form? That is super gatekeeping and useless in the arts; our purpose as artists is to make music for the people rather than ourselves, than engage in labelling, this type of subject only appears when someone new makes a ton of money.

[@GSteel-rh9iu]

GALA X 10; just watched Adam Neely's video

[@kwekuhodgson1976]

GALA X10!!! Greetings from a music lover from Germany of Ghanaian descent; not sure how that has shaped my artistic values but one thing I do know 4 sure: I luv you guys and your content!!

[@DamoOne]

GALA x10. I was listening on Spotify and decided to come on to KZbin to comment. Great review as always gents - very funny and informative. I watched Adam's video last week (and really enjoyed it) and when I saw the words mid-century pop I guessed it was in relation to that video. I loved hearing your points of view on this as the subject of genre in general has always interested me. Personally, I care more about whether the music resonates with/moves me on some level rather than the specific genre people have decided to bucket it into to. Having said that I absolutely understand the need to classify - if only for the purposes of having a conversation with other people about it, exploring it's history or allowing us to find music of a similar type that may also resonate with us (the last point could have cons though if it silos your search for good music to much).

[@darrelmckaig7100]

Gala x10, Greetings Peter and Adam from your neighbors across the state #KCJazzALIVE. Loving your podcast. Keep up the good work. I just saw Samara Joy Saturday night at our Folly Theater. She was awesome. Probably the best concert I have seen there since Chick Corea and Gary Burton back in the early 90's. Samara Joy is the future of jazz. Not Laufey. That said if she can bring GenZ to the music, more power to her. Maybe she has something all of us jazz advocates need to learn.

[@pianopeter]

Greetings from STL! I love the Folly, cool place. My first gig with Betty Carter was at the Folly in 1991, remember everything about the day vividly. 🙏🏼

[@dictator_joe8383]

What was that intro song? Is there a full version or was it just a little thing made for this podcast?

[@strat1227]

GALA x10 Definitely agree that "what is jazz" is a mostly pointless discussion, but "is new artist saving jazz?" is a question that desperately needed the framework and perspective that adam gave it

[@shawnderrick]

GALA x 10 - new subscriber to this channel and just bought the Open Studio entry level (not pro) video subscription. Thanks for all you do!

[@velvetimpulse]

GALA X10! It was fun :) your content is phenomenal. Waiting for that Bill Evans episode

[@bisvizstudio1242]

The reason all these conversations exist is because Laufey and her fans talk about Jazz as past tense. Her fans think that if Jazz doesn't make it to billboard top 100, then Jazz is dying. And the argument Adam presented is valid: Jazz is thriving quietly in a small clubs and other unpopular places. So stop thinking Jazz is dying and Laufey's here to save it. Also you know why Laufey got ton of streams? Because she *sings pop*, only with jazz vocabulary. Doesn't make she's jazz.

[@andrewwray8778]

GALA X 10! Listening from Kansas City! Hope to make it to St. Louis soon to see you play!

[@GWmeso]

GALA x 10 I'm a new viewer and this was a great intro to you guys! Will be back for more!

[@jacklynam5653]

GALA x 10 Love your guys videos, you guys are the reason Im learning to play. Thank you both so much 🙏🙏

[@luismancerapascual4608]

GalaX10. I live in a small European city with a great musical traditition spanning decades or even centuries and covering all kind of genres. The birthplace of flamenco and, at the same time, of some of the best rock, pop and indie artist this side of the Atlantic. And, of course, there is a magnificent jazz community. Genres are just, as Adam say, a human simplification to facilitate communication, but means nothing. Communities, and the merge of information and culture bits between them, are what really matters

[@SpencerTwiddy]

Thanks for the reminder, 3rd vid I’ve seen on Laufey

[@dfwherbie8814]

Laufey is not jazz. I don’t know why this is offensive to her fans. She makes cute music though. Nothing that serious. But enjoyable for a particular day. I find it interesting that despite having her image as the main image for the Apple Music jazz section, Apple didn’t list her album as the top jazz albums of 2023 😂

[@willwood2074]

It’s not completely unimportant whether it’s Jazz or not: most young people (or people) are generally not into Jazz and all that Jazz has to offer. If anything Laufey gives them the opening for enjoying certain musical language and they’re of the opinion it’s Jazz - so now some (or many) of them could ir will want to try to listen to other things in the jazz genre - they will discover a new way to listen to music other than just the usual chart or Ticktock stuff…! This is definitely good for music. For me personally, I‘ve always thought of Jazz as music, that is to a very large degree improvised and uses musical language, that generally bases on the jazz vocabulary, but also all musical vocabulary.

[@dfwherbie8814]

It is important. You have a colonialist mentality

[@thesecretisyouaddreverb]

If I were Laufey I wouldn't want to be given the responsibility of "saving Jazz." I'd rather have the freedom to create what I'd like without pressure. GALAx10

[@Johnwilkinsonofficial]

im not sure if any big questions were answered here but i think we can all agree the entire video was at least worth Adams pain and discomfort 😂

[@Kaimusic0]

This channel is a goldmine

[@musinKanto]

Let’s say Jazz is now (if it hasn’t always been that) the present or current (in live historical collective consciousness) improvisational multi genre global phenomenon that has improvisation in its centre, for structuring musical narrative, And from the personal capacity and attributes, and collective experience resulting in what we call jazz performance. It could be described also by its function: Could say; Used to celebrate personal emancipation (maturity), or freedom and individuality as a medium in musical expression, in the multitude of personal ways and resulting musicality from the collaboration among the musicians and attributes collaborating. And Global being the main word to describe the collaborative aspect of jazz that keeps growing and diversifying.

[@johnsknox]

GALAx10 and was already paid up(subscribed). possibly funniest episode yet watching Adam get so pissed off 😂

[@MarcJohnson246]

GALAx10 ... Thanks from a Boomer who needs to know such Gen Z musical life and language (especially when with such deep historical roots)

[@nixonkutz3018]

One of my favorite "jazz" pieces of all times was the arrangement you two did of "Constant Craving" - because it was a pop song I recognized. If jazz standards were on Name That Tune I'd score zero - those just aren't songs I'm interested in. Was your arrangement jazz? Or "late-century pop?"

[@pianopeter]

that's Adam's arrangement - but happy to take 1/2 credit 😉

[@wesaf4675]

GALA x 10 wonderful!!👍👍👍 Greetings from Germany🤩

[@yeet4837]

Galax10 lmao, wishing you some quick growth with this channel.

[@bradleymorse2132]

Thank you for mentioning the coffee cup.

[@blevens7251]

Adam's videos are usually great and this one was pretty good. Still, one of my main takeaways was suddenly being reminded how pompous Wynton is.

[@pianopeter]

😂to be fair, those were very old vids of Wynton speaking, like 30+ years I think

[@geocosmicvalentine]

Yes, I remember the feud between Wynton and Branford over his performing and touring with Sting starting with Dream Of The Blue Turtles. Sting’s albums were a direct artery into jazz for a lot of Generation-X (I’m 4 years older than you, Peter, and African American) and Wynton was just a hot mess over it! If anything, unfortunately, it pushed me away from everything Wynton was involved with for years. He’s not that militant anymore, thank God.

[@NomeDeArte]

Love the city croma. So professional, the cars passing don't even repete once! ( haha xD)

[@nickpilgrim1966]

I latched onto this discussion after watching a Patrick Bartley response to Adam Neely. My first thought was... gotta get you'll hear it to discuss this. I was thinking we used to have Pops and Lady Day and now we have Laufrey and Nearly boy. I guess there's more to it... ? Emet's place and Patrick Bartley and Open Studio and Bob Reynolds show we're in a good place. Just listen to a bit of Chris Potter. The flame is bright. "Never mind the bollocks" bros.

[@mellotones]

20:30 This is what it's all about

[@joelgevirtz6181]

I agree with Adam. Just play you definitions don't matter. If others dig it great, if not, great, also...

[@shanjayaweera3036]

I came here to say the term "pickle ball curious" in my favourite of 2023 - I think Peter Martin should do an album and call it Pickleball Curious and then tour it so he can go on the pickle ball curious tour. For the record I am now pickleball curious

[@milddiffuse]

GALA x 10 I think Adam Neely is interesting because I don't necessarily think he's right, but somehow his way of thinking seems to come from a similar place as to why I myself gradually started listening to a lot more jazz and jazz inspired music in the last 6-8 years I'd say. For context I'm 22 and have for the longest time felt a need to police my own thoughts and opinions, because I subconsciously have a dislike for the status quo. Very similar reason as to why I'm really into Retro or Indie games instead of anything too popular or expensive releasing today. All of that is to say that I don't think Adams Video is coming from the right place at all. But I do appreciate finding Emmet's place through that video and I'm sure Laufey might have found some new fans as well.

[@BobMazzo]

The Village Vanguard would let us in when we were just 17, in the mid 80s.

[@Jazman493]

GALA x 10. Great stuff, didn’t mind the long video - could hear y’all for hours. And can’t music just be classified as good and bad and just appreciate its value? Genre association has always bothered me.

[@karlvanbeckum9029]

Gala x 10 Great episode, Guys!

[@Wolfram53]

GALA X10, Thank you !

[@judahleat_music]

GALA x10 - good discussion 👌🏻

[@suites.74]

woah these two have a podcast? very cool. i never learned jazz but im a pop music lover who wants to inject some jazz. most jazz teachers on the internet are just telling me stuff thats over my head and ill never use. but these two have showed me how i can tell my pop music stories more tastefully!

[@dfwherbie8814]

You can only incorporate jazz by learning it. Or else you’ll come across as cheesy when putting something you don’t fully understand in another context

[@suites.74]

@@dfwherbie8814 i dont think you can make a blank statement like that. What if I simply like the chords to Autumn Leaves and want to borrow some of them?

[@dfwherbie8814]

@@suites.74 that makes no sense. “I like chords from one song, so I’ll learn that and incorporate that everywhere”? lol also, you mean the chord changes. You have to figure out how to voice them. Those changes, though, are too easily identifiable with Autumn Leaves. The min someone hears CM7, F7, B-flat, E-flat, A min, D7, people who know the song will think of the song, and it’ll work against you. And as I said earlier, if you were to insert just that in a different context, it’ll be cheesy. In order to break rules, you gotta first master them (Miles Davis said this. And I agree with him). If you don’t want to put in the work, you’re not a serious artist and musician. It’s just a past time for you, which is fine. There’s value in that too.

[@suites.74]

@@dfwherbie8814 im not really concerned with whether or not someone else thinks i am a serious artist or musician. I simply like making songs and having other people listen to them. 🤷‍♂️

[@suites.74]

@@dfwherbie8814 also listen to a song by Mild High Club called Homage. Hes a very very good and trained musician so not comparing myself to him but its a great song that has the Autumn Leaves changes. Even the lyrics say "Someone wrote this song before And I could tell you where it's from The 4736251 to put my mind at ease". I think its cute!

[@alpaykol9890]

GALA X 10!

[@noeladdy]

The “is-is not” issue was covered by Wittgenstein. Rather than definitions, things have more or less family resemblance to each other. Bright lines are less useful.

[@nel-tu9214]

GALAX10 🖤🖤

[@aaronlewis7182]

paraphrasing.. “Labels are killing the genre “…. “Is Samara Joy Jazz?” “Yes”……🤣☠️👀 I get it. It’s interesting because it seems there is no middle ground. Insanely great players and people that can barely play hate classification. Musicians don’t like to be judged yet we are the MOST judgemental. Anyone who spends the majority of their lives studying and struggling to perfect their craft judge… even if they don’t put it out there. But… still hilarious. Love the content. ✌🏾

[@michael_indy]

GALA x10 !!!!

[@pereztube2]

GALA x10!

[@ovione]

GALA10X ... what's tge electric piano sound at the end

[@amileoj9043]

GALaLaLa...tenex. So, even though this kind of thing clearly drives Adam up the wall (for reasons that are, in and of themselves, quite understandable and legitimate), I'm glad that Peter insisted on dragging him and us all through it because, here's the thing: There's a big difference between boundary maintenance (boo!) and, well, trying keep an aesthetic community of interest alive when almost all the odds are stacked against it. I don't begrudge Laufey her popularity or notoriety, or her finding her own path through "jazz" influences. All good! Brava! But, as (our) Adam I think acknowledges at one point, the issue other Adam (Neely) is really targeting in his video is the pop cultural media narrative that has been constructed around Laufey. And that stuff makes me furious, not only because it's musically ignorant (which, if you're covering music, seems like a real deficiency in your professional training), but also, on the evidence, seems like a contemporary version of the same old whitewashing tendency that has plagued jazz (or "jazz" or "rhythm & blues" and on and on) since, well, forever. For me the most galling, and emblematic, moment in Adam (Neely's) video was his callout of the ignoramus who used the cover of the (superb) Fred Hersch / Esperanza Spalding album to exemplify the supposedly moribund "jazz" that needs "saving" by the likes of Laufey. Because, from a specifically "jazz perspective" (whatever the heck that might mean, in any possible situation where it might mean anything) Esperanza, on that album, just runs circles around anything Laufey has put out, and it's not particularly close. She swings harder. She has more and richer compositional/improvisational ideas. Her voice has much more emotional range and impact. She's wittier. And on and on. And I think we really do need a language that allows us to say just that type of thing. Aesthetic appreciation is all about making judgments--not based on heaven-sent objective standards, but based on first person reports about what different aesthetic experiences do to us. Such judgments are the bread and butter of aesthetics. And such judgments always take place within the framework of certain artistic conventions--even (maybe especially) when those conventions are being challenged and stretched (think of what Esperanza does on "Girl Talk"). In other words, I think we do want to be able to say something like: Yo, that stuff Laufey is doing is interesting, and it's cool that she's turning lots of new people on to, say, bebop language. Aweome! But if that has you digging this "jazz" thing that Laufey is talking about (and, more to the point, that her pop media narrative-makers are talking about, if mostly just to reiterate that it's dead and needs saving), then you might want to check out this other stuff over here by living jazz artists (queue "Alive at the Village Vanguard," queue the Live From Emmet's Place videos, queue Samara Joy albums, You Tubes, TikToks...) because, if you think you might be into this music, well, it's the sh*t.

[@amileoj9043]

Of course, to (our) Adam's point: None of this is particularly relevant to musicians qua musicians. It's simply not going to matter to the creative process at all. Where it matters is for the critical process, which is to say the process of appreciation, of communicating our joy (ahem) in hearing certain exemplars of the music. To take an example that Peter brings up: I want to be able to account for *why* the Sinatra of the Capitol years is so superior to the Sinatra of the earlier Columbia years. Not just assert it as my preference, but *account for* the difference as something you might also perceive, and share. Someone is going to say: Well, "superior" *for you* maybe (queue that Big Lebowski scene, you know the one). But the problem with this "solution" is that it doesn't, let's say, express my interest in making the judgment to begin with. I wasn't trying to express my feelings for no particular reason, nor just to get someone else's validation. Rather, I was making a judgment that (in principle at least) I think other people could, and should, share. I was saying: I hear this difference; do you hear it too? That's not an advertisement of what I believe, as if anyone cared. It's an invitation to aesthetic community. Think of it like this: Someone says to me, "I love X's music, it's just great." And I ask, "Oh really, that's interesting, why do you think so?" And the response comes back as, "Oh, I don't know, it's just my opinion really." Now, unless we can get past this moment together, it's going to be pretty difficult to have any further conversation worth having. Because if it's nothing more than your private belief, why should I care? If aesthetic judgments are just exchanges of subjective feelings and nothing further--me saying "yay!" and "boo!" and you saying "yay!" and "boo!" and maybe, by chance (or, more likely, similar social conditioning based on age, education, class, race, etc.) sometimes we happen to yay or boo the same things, and sometimes we don't, then they're not going to be particularly interesting topics of conversation--even if they're remain very efficient if somewhat superficial forms of social bonding. But if we want to have an actual conversation (call it a communion) about our different aesthetic judgments (what we think is beautiful, or cool, or what have you) we're going to have to *make claims about the works themselves.* And for that, we need a language of judgment that is going to have to reference some standards, or exemplars, or comparable experiences, of some kind, if only to account for why we think we were moved more by this work, than by that one. And this is one of the things that the concept of "genre" still does for us, I think, quite apart from selling spins and clicks.

[@FrancescoGrassi]

GALA x 10 Thanks!

[@hiroprotagonitis]

galax10 if a genre is just a group of people, is everything just about cliques and in-groups? i actually agree with adam neeley and you re:connecting with the present-day jazz community, but if hypothetically, andother artist in a remote place plays the tunes but would never even think to go to a jazz club, are they also not "jazz"?

[@giovanniperin]

Interesting and never ending story what is jazz!!!! Probably the Emmet Cohen show is what sounds like the real jazz….

[@nilkilnilkil]

From what I heard it sounds like antique revival music ... but I could be wrong ...

[@danielreyesmusic]

GALA x10 dope vid ! 🤙🏼

[@nickmortimer4831]

Gala x 10. Nice ep

[@lightthestars]

GALA 10 (Linda from Florida)

[@josephmartino9958]

There is a natural tendency for artists to "mine" historic references to arrive at their own conclusions and contributions...the study of art history never ends, formally or informally

[@yanrad]

gala!!! x 10!!

[@HealthyLifeCaravan-hm4di]

Who cares about the nomenclature ? Laufey's music is good She is a good singer and seems to always puts her presence when she sings!

[@georgevanderbyl7519]

Labels absolutely DO matter! Not only in a personal self worth mode where we can feel and experience a heritage as a small part of the culture but in a larger discussion about the art our society creates. The way we digest and think about art has always been an essential part of our relationship with art especially when put in the context we live in where studios and executives essential control popular artists, as well as narratives connected to race and gender where we are likely to overlook things and celebrate things that maybe don’t merit it as much compared to a marginalised community which originated the music and continues to innovate in the underground scene while white men and pretty white women make all the money. Labels can be a matter of poverty vs riches, life or death, depression or happiness and yes I agree our experience as artists are going to be far more complicated than a one word label like jazz, the better we understand that label and surrounding labels, the better we can be truthful to the history of it, and the better equipped we are to take it forward.

[@bryanbinnema1902]

But Adam, do you think categories matter?

[@jamesonrichards5105]

I was wondering that too? I can’t quite put my finger on it

[@shanjayaweera3036]

Just saw Cecile McLorin Salvant and Sullivan Fortner play the Melbourne concert hall. Jazz is not dead and these guys are beyond amazing.

[@OskarSvan]

The Adam vid is so loud compared to you guys !

[@Orlando-wn4uc]

GALAx10!

[@LostSoulAscension]

Thank you for calling out Adam on tongue and cheek. The whole vibe of the video that I didn't appreciate was "how can Adam say, Laufey is 'dumb' without saying it while simultaneously expressing my jealousy of her popularity under the guise of Jazz politics." The simple fact is she's not Jazz, but he could have been a lot more straight forward about it with a bit more class. The edits ooze with gushy spite, maybe it's just me. But, you can really sense he's trying to lift the curtain to remove the magic of Laufey for new listeners while dissing her on not visiting live Jazz clubs amid her isolation in Iceland growing up. I think there's some jealousy there for Adam for sure. What's funny is the edit couldn't have made any of this more apparent. And yet the video was edited, they had the time to be more intentional about how they pick their words and use clips of her.

[@LostSoulAscension]

Laufey talked about that Bill Evans album because that's all she had growing up in Iceland. Live at Emmet's place did not exist for her, nor did going to NY to listen. Sure she's ignorant in some aspects of the historical and cultural aspects, but Adam lacked grace for sure when casting light on that and demystifying Laufey's music.

[@LostSoulAscension]

Galax10 😁

[@aleg_001]

GALA x 10

[@88KeysMan]

GALA X10

[@femi_progressoi8698]

Gala X 10 (Gentlemen and Ladies Agreement).

[@jacuhb8445]

gala x10 nice episode guys

[@Edy_hdz]

Gala x 10

[@salilbhole2938]

GALA X 10

[@vinylmanu]

Gentleman & Ladies agreement times ten (GALA * 10)

[@ByzCathCuban]

GALA x10

[@finnwatt288]

All the way to the fuckin end

[@jean-olivierjanvier6030]

GALA (x10)

[@RayDLewis]

GALAX10