How does ShadowDark RPG, Compare to and Contrast with Castles & Crusades?

[@CrusaderCool]

Both are great systems. But Shadowdark plays so light and smooth and intuitive, which I really like. Its so easy to run at the table, while very nicely capturing the classic D&D feel.

[@Ironcaster]

The biggest strength to c&c is the 20 years of support and material available.

[@quantus5875]

Agreed. Not just 20 years of support. But after 9 printings of the C&C Player's Handbook -- rules are still 1st Ed. How cool is that!! Don't know of any company that has done this other than Troll Lord Games.

[@bobreaper2142]

I agree for me i like the pre made adventures i can use for my game

[@itsasecrettoeverybody]

My preference for c&c is just because I really trust and like the people behind it. On this day and age this is very important for me, and it's very hard to gain my trust. Troll Lord did for me after many years of commitment of their part. And despite having big books, the game system is a breeze to run and easy to improvise on top of the rules. It just works. If money wasn't a problem for me I would try more games. My currency is shit, even the pdfs are expensive for me.

[@NemoOhd20]

Yeah, I feel the same way about the Trolls but I don't really enjoy the ruleset, unfortunately.

[@quantus5875]

One of the things I love about C&C is that the core rules have never changed. The only real changes were at some point they changed the barbarian class from a berserker type barbarian to more of an outdoor-expert type Barbarian, and they changed the Illusionist class spell list. The interesting thing is you can still use the old barbarian class -- if you want, although I prefer the newer outdoor-expert barbarian. Also, the Castle Keeper's guide is a fantastic book! -- It is not required at all for play -- where it is useful is for advice and customization options. Ways to make the game more or less gritty, tweaks to the SIEGE engine, rules for point buy, etc.

[@itsasecrettoeverybody]

@@NemoOhd20 understanding, not everyone likes the same things or have the same needs. I like it because it remembers enough AD&D 1st and 2nd without all the confusion or fat those systems had. It's very easy to throw random rules on top of it without breaking the game, in fact the whole siege engine is a invitation to just try things out. It loses a little bit of flavor the old ad&d versions had by making exceptions as rules. But for me it's a decent trade off.

[@itsasecrettoeverybody]

@@quantus5875 indeed. It has a very robust and consistent core rule set. And the keepers guide is a very good dm guide.

[@bobreaper2142]

I started to play C&C more after wotc went on a furry fest tangent

[@ISpiers]

Finally broke down and ordered Shadowdark last Saturday. The website says orders will ship in February. Thank you for this video. I am infinitely more interested in long-running campaigns than I am in one-off's and short-term campaigns.

[@JackMcCarthyWriter]

Great video, sir! I'm a long time fan of Castles & Crusades, but have yet to pick up a copy of Shadowdark. I appreciate the detailed compare/contrast method.

[@opaqued2039]

Whichever viewer requested your thoughts on Shadowdark compared to C&C must have been quite intelligent. I have another video topic to recommend: How to get your wife to allow you to purchase another OSR game to add to the dragon hoard of other OSR games and (bonus content) how to store such a hoard without hollowing out a mountain and placing traps to keep the collection safe...

[@quantus5875]

Thanks for doing this video!! Yes, I was hoping to see your comparison on them. I kind of like your comparison using the C&C white box booklets. Although -- I've been playing C&C since 2005 (I own the 1Ed of the C&C PHB) and actually never played with (nor am I familiar with) the white box C&C rules. 🙂 Yes, most people aren't aware that C&C is essentially free to play -- as like you said, Troll Lords makes the 7th print of the Players Handbook PDF available for free on their web site. You're right the GM (or CK) would only need to buy a PDF of the Monsters and Treasure book. I agree that C&C (the hardback version) is more complicated to play than ShadowDark for the GM (or CK), but not for the player. For the player C&C is amazingly easy to play and learn.

[@JackMcCarthyWriter]

Random thought, inspired by listening: if you prefer the slot system for inventory management and want to use it in C&C, you can use the standard EV from the PHB, and just treat it as the number of inventory slots the character has.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

TBH I don't dwell on the EV system in C&C. I apply common sense and will ask the players "How you plan on carrying that?". But, ShadowDark's 10-slot system works really well too. BTW, the 10-slot system is an ICRPG / Runehammer influence on SD.

[@sirblackheart666]

I want to run C&C so badly. I am looking forward to the next kickstarter next month, I am also happy that Frog God Games has started supporting C&C

[@captainhrothgar4637]

Ah, but food water and lighting rules can be easily added to C&C. That's what I love about it. Most rules you like from other games can be added or modified.

[@hrothgarrannulfr1972]

Thank you for this video and this topic. I've been wrestling with switching to a new system and these two are definitely near the top of the list. I think C&C would be slightly easier to prepare to run as there is not much to making monsters (kinda like AD&D). Shadowdark would take a little more work as the monsters all have the six core stats (S,D,C,I,W,Ch) and optional bonuses to apply to a few things. I like most of Shadowdark, except I find thinking about designing new classes to be quite challenging. I'm also not so familiar with the power level of SD. I like C&C, but I've always chosen to run other games over it. But, I think it seems like a very fast playing game, which is what I'd lean towards over playing 5E or PF2E or 3.X/PF1E. I also like B/X (via OSE:Advanced), too. Decisions. Decisions.

[@hrothgarrannulfr1972]

C&C slightly edges out B/X, as I was never really a fan of the saving throw system of B/X or the various systems for resolving skill checks in B/X. The Siege Engine, I think is better. That said, I like the set DCs of Shadowdark and the Dis/Advantage system, too.

[@AdamK1095]

I've had C&C since 2006 but I am running my first convention game w/it this August. I looked at Shadowdark and though it has some really nice parts/feel to it C&C's system really is easy and useful (and VERY easily modded) to suit my needs. Basic Fantasy is really the only other one I like for basic D&D games, especially since all of that is free.

[@quantus5875]

Yes, Basic Fantasy is an awesome game! And the king of value. $8.50 for the player's book in print! And everything is free on PDFs on the web site. I can't think of any other game that can equal BF in terms of bang for the buck. Yes, you can do POD with many OSR games -- but still more expensive than an $8.50 book. Both SD and BF are great games. The way I compare them is SD is a simplified D&D 5thEd with OSR goodness thrown in, and BF starts out with BX and cleans it up and modernizes it a bit (and does not use race as a class). Both are super simple games to learn and play. As a starter game for new players, I prefer BF slightly -- only because the starting cost is almost nil, and it is nil if you're ok with PDFs. Free PDFs for everyone at the table! -- and like I said the player guide in print is only $8.50. You can buy 4 books for your players for ~$35!!

[@CrazyKanuckGamer]

Thanks for this information. I was seeking info on both systems

[@danf3198]

I'm in Inland Empire area of Soouthern California. Wish ai could find people to play C&C or ShadowDark with

[@NemoOhd20]

To me, the biggest downside to Shadowdark is the Powernap returning all hit points, but there are optional rules to use something more rational. Roll high AC/DC is just so much easier and cleaner.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

That downside is nullified if the party is interrupted by combat, then they have to roll a DC 15 to get any true rest. I would not allow them to just "sleep in" for another 8 hours.

[@NemoOhd20]

@@DM_Bluddworth I've never liked the crazy sleep rules. Im old enough that the way you recover hit points is to leave the caves and return to the keep.

[@quantus5875]

Played SD twice and enjoyed it! But we all really disliked the torch timer rules -- easy enough to fix -- we just house ruled the torch timer rules out. I always say if you don't like a rule just house rule it out.

[@NemoOhd20]

@@quantus5875 exactly. I don't really like the timer thing either. Feels like a gimmick tacked on, like chrome bumpers or something.

[@bobreaper2142]

Thank you very much for your video , i have been playing C&C for a few years , Not against Shadowdark so many other good games out there.

[@jonathanowen9917]

How do you handle character death in Castles and Crusades? Do you have the player use a character of the same class or a different one? Do they start at the same level that they died at, step down a level, or start at level 1? How do the Crusades impact the world? Do they mirror real world Crusades, Jihads, etc? Are they religious or social? Are there martial crusading orders? Are all player characters crusaders? How are heretics, zealots/fanatics, pious monks and nuns, assassins, and practitioners of other religions handled? Is the world more grim dark or noble bright?

[@DM_Bluddworth]

@@jonathanowen9917 Character death is the same as D&D BX / AD&D 1E. Castles & Crusades gets its name from Gary Gygax’s Castles & Crusades Society (gaming group) prior to the publication of D&D 1974. The game itself has nothing to do with The Crusades of history.

[@anothercarpenter]

So are we gonna do a ShadowDark campaign after the current C&C game? Or will we revisit the 1st Ed game? My pally is still waiting to hit 9th level!

[@DM_Bluddworth]

Nope, ShadowDark for me is strictly a convention play and adventure writing / publishing game system.

[@JackMcCarthyWriter]

I'm rooting for the pally!

[@DoctorTopper]

Does the whitebox only have 4 classes? Less races too? I don't see that information in the store.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

I’ll get back to you on this

[@sunsin1592]

No comparison. One is an actual game; the other is over-hyped house rules that does nothing original whatsoever.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

“House Rules”…. Everything since 1974 has been house rules. “Over hyped”, nope. It is a solid contender for top three best game systems to introduce new players to the hobby.

[@quantus5875]

​@@DM_Bluddworth Agreed. To add to what you said I'd even argue that there's really been nothing new as far a game mechanics go since around the mid 90s. I can trace most game mechanics concepts back to the 70s to the mid 90s. Anything from the mid 90s and up has really just been tweaks (derivatives) on the concepts that were published in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. One of my sub-interests are TTRPGs from the 70s and it is amazing how many ideas came out of the 70s and 80s, examples: skills - Empire of the Petal Throne (1975), mana points - Tunnels & Trolls (1975), point buy for character creation in Superhero 2044 (1977), luck points in Top Secret (1980)... 1990s is what I call the splat book and settings decade. Tons of innovation in the settings and splat book areas during the 90s.

[@quantus5875]

@@DM_Bluddworth Hey -- that's another idea for a video! Although probably been done before but would be interesting. For new players -- I give TONS of points to Paizo, WoTC, and Chaosium for producing Starter Kits or Beginner boxes. Still have fond memories of teaching my 10-year-old niece and 12-year-old nephew (at the time) how to play Pathfinder 1Ed using the Beginner Box. They loved playing Pathfinder with the beginner box, and it was so easy for young kids to learn to play with such an amazing beginner box like that. Castles & Crusades has a QuickStart and so does ShadowDark -- but would love to see a beginner box version of C&C - done like the Chaosium RuneQuest, CoC, or Pendragon starter sets. Not sure if you've checked out the new Pendragon 7Ed starter set -- but beautiful game -- and not exactly new -- but they really expanded the rules and guidance for using female knights. Haven't played it or DMed it yet -- but would love to run a Pendragon campaign.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

Castles & Crusades has a white box, which is a starter box and homage to OD&D white box. So yes it has been done before.

[@quantus5875]

​@@DM_Bluddworth Great point! Never thought of it that way -- I'm not super familiar with the white box (I do own a PDF copy of the 2019 print of the white box rules - but have never played the white box version). Yes, you're right you could consider it a starter set -- and in any event you do bring up a very good point -- by using the C&C white box to teach new players it easily equals the simplicity of games like ShadowDark, OSE, and Basic Fantasy, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, etc. Learned something new. Thanks! Great option to get new players into TTRPGs! And like you said super cost effective the white box (2019 print) is $49.99 and $15 for the PDFs.