How Extraction Looters Could Save a Genre

[@extracredits]

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[@pyeitme508]

Bruh 😂

[@Kaede-Sasaki]

Perhaps you die in game, but if you have a child in game, then you respawn as your child? Could even adopt? Sounds a bit like mixing the Sims though 😂

[@Kaede-Sasaki]

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[@Kaede-Sasaki]

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[@Kaede-Sasaki]

Perhaps add elected offices in game so the players need to schmooz the other players and pay for posters to get elected. The elected can then set tax rates and engage in building projects, wage war, etc. Have multiple countries and even provinces and cities so every player has a chance at some level.

[@toshibaDVDplayer]

I've yet to find one these style of games that doesn't push towards PvP. Personally I like the random players teaming up along the way to face off against harder PvE challenges. More so than the PvP nature of facing off against other players.

[@PsyrenXY]

+1000. I don't want to spend my limited free time being content for wolves and sociopaths.

[@extracredits]

That is a really good point! In WoW we played on a PVP server but they still did a really good job about making the story based coopertive content forward facing content.

[@ilovethelegend]

The problem I have with PvP in games like this is that the typical PvP strategy involves completely ignoring the game's more unique or interesting systems. I once played the demo for Dark and Darker (which I THOUGHT was going to be a game like Matt described) and was observing two players fight. They both put their buff spells and potions up, and then... circle strafed each other until those buffs wore off, then jousted each other until one of them fell over; Which is a crying shame, because I'm actually really interested in Dark and Darker's melee combat system, where if you wanna block you have to actually PUT your shield where the opponent's weapon is going to be.

[@danilooliveira6580]

that is also the problem for me, it creates an environment that a) incentivize people to not trust each other and b) eventually gets boring so griefing other players become the only fun experienced players can have. meaning if you add things that, for me, make multiplayers worth playing, like player interaction and communication, you will just be nurturing an extremely toxic environment where players just have fun by bulling each other and punishing new players instead of working together to face harder challenges and then split the reward. and if instantly killing other people because its not worth trusting them is the only way I'll interact with other people, them I might as well just play singleplayer.

[@animusnocturnus7131]

@@danilooliveira6580 This. Exactly this! There are 2 reasons for PvP: You either want to be the best and be challanged, or you want to make others feel miserable. Neither really gels well with cooperative play (other than predetermined parties) nor with strategic progression.

[@vidim888]

I think Deep Rock Galactic can be a very good example of similar gameplay.

[@extracredits]

DRG has some great gameplay but it seems to be cut things a bit short to be a full-on MMORPG. I would be interested to see more content from them!

[@ASpaceOstrich]

@@extracredits Helldivers is similar to DRG with the tiniest hint of an MMO in it. In that theres a constant "galactic war" going on that the players are attempting to influence. EDIT: I actually found Deep Rock because I was looking for games similar to Helldivers. The two are deceptively similar despite completely different perspectives (ones a twin stick shooter, the other a first person game).

[@gimps3937]

@@extracredits I think a game called Dark and Darker is the closest I’ve seen to this idea, even tho it only had a limited demo

[@casuallatecomer7597]

@@extracredits Either way, a lot of what you discussed in this video should've at least warranted a name-drop, since some of your ideas for improving the MMORPG genre using Extraction Shooter elements are already found in DRG.

[@Benjymon123]

Im really surprised that Deep Rock Galactic didn't get a shoutout in this video. It nails basically every thing you mentioned and is just a stellar game in general. Looking at it through this lens has me daydreaming about 100-player morkite-refining chaos!

[@mrdragoplayzz8839]

Yeah genuinely surprised it wasn't mentioned, it basically has everything matt mentions except the time limit but that's not an essential part , also payday 2 is a game in a very similar vein

[@Swaggless]

There's no PvP in DRG, however.

[@BOFH_]

@@Swaggless Tell that to the Scout vs Driller hilarity.

[@danielt8919]

I think DRG doesn't have as much of the push your luck mechanic going on unless it's changed since I last played. There's a little of it, but you're mainly doing a mission the GTFOing

[@Swaggless]

@@BOFH_ LOL! I stand corrected.

[@EnexS02]

For me the time comitment of MMO's is what doesn't work now that I'm an adult. Experiences like Sea of Thieves are great because they fill that MMO void but since all the upgrades are cosmetic I can play just a little bit and be at the same "level" as my friends who are more into grinding.

[@extracredits]

Ah this is an interesting thought. Most of the people who started playing MMORPG's are older now and may not have the time to give for something with so deep.

[@wpwscience4027]

There are other ways around this problem than cosmetic leveling I always thought eve online had the best solution, complexity, with providing a leveling increases the types of equipment that you can use but that each component has a counter loadout thus a person could never be op geared for every situation but there was always an incentive to skill into something new to unlock new types of gameplay. They made the mistake of making that time based and not interaction based though

[@JohnDoe-rl9ft]

It seems like Guild Wars (1) was ahead of its time in this regard (and not just in that). It did the short round gameplay and purely cosmetic upgrades with persistent characters very well. While the skill system provided lots of potential complexity for the hardcore players.

[@indiana_horst]

I'm reminded of Minecraft Vault Hunters. It also seems to fall neatly into the Loot'n'Scoot frame, nailing a lot of the concepts mentioned here. (Difficulty progression, better with Friends, time limits, randomization...) Might be an interesting subject of study for y'all.

[@yourunclejoe9500]

ya but vault hunters fucking sucks

[@deriznohappehquite]

I remember seeing that Bungie was working on an extraction shooter based on the Marathon IP. It’ll be interesting to see what comes of that. Destiny is already a successful quasi-MMO looter shooter. Marathon has an interesting world of killer cyborgs, neat aliens, elder gods, eldritch horrors, and sassy AI.

[@satnawk5328]

Albion Online has those maps, you can pop dofferent tiers of maps in the open world that spawn a dungeon with stronger enemies (depending on the tier of the map) and there is still risk because people can see the portal if they come across it and can enter it

[@KarlisUlmanis34]

1:30 Extra Credits 18th century Man fortnite emote cant hurt you. Extra Credits 18th century Man fortnite emote:

[@Toonrick12]

That's Walpole, you uncultured swine!

[@eshasunrise]

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but Monster Hunter does have the whole limited time-resource gathering dichotomy, with multiplayer on limited but open maps, and a resource that encourages players to directly face the environment around them. It could easily be made into a social looter or survival MMO type game.

[@gregvoelker7386]

Nice discussion. I was thinking the 'advance to a more difficult area' feature could also help mitigate potential griefing (still a thing?). If a player decides to take an advanced character to a harder zone, that character would be restricted from lower levels where they might have too much of an advantage over less strong characters and/or casual players. A player could then have multiple characters at different difficulty levels/areas for whatever mood they happen to be in.

[@boredfangerrude]

Griefing isn't really a thing anymore outside of open world games.

[@uanime1]

The big problem will be what if a player has a run of bad luck and loses all their best equipment. This may cause people to quit if they feel it will be too difficult to regain this equipment or because they can no longer dominate the game. A possible solution is to let the player craft any equipment they've found but have lost in a match. That way equipment can be quickly replaced, possibly after a short grind to get the materials they need.

[@Vynirian]

That's one thing I enjoyed about Dark and Darker. You ALWAYS have a starter set of gear for your class. Always. Is it good? No. But it's better than hatchling or pistoling runs on reserve just to make a couple roubles.

[@caerdwyn7467]

There were/are significant elements of this in Eve Online. PvP there, especially in "zero-sec space", was very costly to lose.

[@Vashetrockner]

This reminds me of a thought about Diablo 1 i had. I still think that it is the perfect horror rpg if you scratch the phasing and teleport spell. You never knew if behind the next door was the unique mob pack that could steamroll you and the thrill was that everything had the same movement speed and wrong positioning could mean your death. When D2 introduced running that whole magic of the dangerthrill was gone. I really wish for a game that can use this ground framework for something like an extraction looter. And i also think some meta progression would really help with player retention.

[@adamboyd1132]

I noticed the potato at 3:55 As for how FFXIV is doing as well as it is... I think it's a commitment to good communications plus keeping older content relevant.

[@eyeguyart8685]

1:28 is an affront to god. I love it

[@wariodude128]

What's being talked about in this video sounds a lot like a multiplayer rogue-lite with an escape every few floors if you want to get out with the stuff you have or keep going for more.

[@XRayder360X]

warframe ?

[@Johnysimus]

Exactely - I also got a very "roguelike with a push-your-luck element" vibes for the basis of the game. And on top the multiplayer aspect.

[@Lulink013]

Wait a second... You've just described Realm of the Mad God didn't you? The only difference is that in that game escaping is instant (just like death can be) since it's a bullet hell, but that just means the decision of staying or leaving is all the more present at all times.

[@ScaryPhilosophy]

I was thinking the same thing. For me personally purchasable dungeon keys destroyed the sense of adventuring and with that the game, as it is just way too profitable to grind dungeons opened by keys from discord groups, but even with that, the game ticks all the marks described in the video.

[@Lulink013]

@@ScaryPhilosophy Yes, indeed Realm has lost a lost of it's charm...

[@deathpupkin1098]

Another thing you could do if you don’t want to make new maps or have really large ones is say something along the lines of more powerful reinforcements are coming and just increased the strength of ai by having bigger ones spawn in on waves or something so while you might get better gear by continuing to look around more powerful enemy’s are going to come after you

[@Frostmute19]

It is honestly what I was hoping Dark and Darker was when I first saw it. A diablo like set up with new levels unlocked as you go that get harder and harder.

[@exeggcutertimur6091]

I'm noticing that this video is more or less describing Guild Wars 2's world vs world game mode.

[@GamesNTech]

The MMO you are describing sounds a lot like The Division. The PVP Dark zones had extractions and everything.

[@Aidan8et]

Based on EC's description of a budding genre, i immediately thought of Warframe. Its built around mission based PvE, with soft drop in/out party mechanics, & a multitude of missions over various maps. There are even a couple of larger pseudo openworld maps for more freeform exploration.

[@chromiumboy]

Yup, my thoughts immediately jumped to Warframe as well

[@DarkInos]

Escape looter would make more sense.. that would work even for Dark and Darker.

[@ThePhantomSquee]

I've been enjoying a game called Shatterline with my friends lately, which has an escape-looter mode I particularly like. Aside from the gunplay being fun, which is an important base in its own right, progression goes toward unlocking the next tier of weapons, which can then be individually purchased with the common currency. New tiers unlock fairly quickly, and each just offers guns with different strengths and weaknesses, not strictly better ones, so advancement is more tied to customizing your loadout to match the way you want to play, rather than getting "stronger."

[@jroden06]

It is surreal playing Project 1999 and watching new MMOs release. We lose a few players for about 3 weeks, then they all come back because they’ve exhausted the new game’s content. They would still rather come back to a game designed in the 90’s with PS2 era graphics.

[@deeps6979]

If the gameplay style is going to "save MMOs" or emerge as more than a niche genre, it's going to have to limit PvP in some fashion, by design, from the start. Looking at something like Lost Ark (just another AMMO grinder) or New World (design flipped way late into production, no decent endgame) doesn't explain the successful entries in an aging genre. The top ones have strong limits on PvP, to no one's surprise, no matter how many times some upstart MMO-to-be keeps trying to make open world PvP happen.

[@danilooliveira6580]

I think the only MMO with open PVP that worked was lineage 2, and it was mostly because of the karma mechanic. it not just incentivized people to not go griefing other players for shits and giggles, but the fact that the resources from dungeons was limited people had to compete for it, so there was a good reason for people to fight each other, not just go killing anyone for fun. it also incentivized players to hunt down other players with bad karma like a bounty system what also made griefing even more dangerous.

[@boredfangerrude]

The issue is, PVP doesn't need to be limited so much as it needs to evolve. We are not thinking about PVP in the right way which has led to a lot of problems for the PVP crowd and MMOs in general.

[@HelperWesley]

I see a lot of this working in a game set up like warframe. 👀

[@XRayder360X]

He just spent a whole episode talking about warframe, not realising the game already exist

[@HelperWesley]

@@XRayder360X I was thinking the same thing lol. Aside from the permadeath and such, the PvE part is kind of how warframe works. 😅

[@Vynirian]

My immediate thoughts were Warframe or S.T.A.L.K.E.R. lmao

[@Apheleion]

So glad to see more deep dives into games like this, and i totally dig the hunt showdown shout out.

[@BrianAThomas]

I'd add to the list, with Deep Rock Gallactic, GTFO, which remains criminally underrated. Now they don't have real extraction elements, but they could add them. Like in GTFO, you get what the Warden sends you down for, but you could pick up more weapons and armor, which allows for harder run downs... Both have a basic progression loop though as they stand. Both come close to the Extraction Looter category without the PvP element.

[@theebulll]

If you want to balance the pve and pvp aspects maybe you can incentivise based on area. Make certain areas hard enough that it requires cooperation or extraordinary gear, while other areas can be soloed but come with high pvp risk.

[@davidarcesolano8375]

In albion online, high lvl pve has pvp mechanics that push towards a kind of "hack and scoot away from PKs".

[@francocarabajal9021]

I'm reminded of Sea of thieves and it's open raids where ships from other players can show up and make things harder for you. Those kinds of open map raids would be awesome in an Escape looter kind of environment :O

[@wbcrafter1396]

This sounds a bit like a game called Barotrauma, it isn't an MMO but it does have many of the aspects that you described.

[@Cruxxy21]

I know that myself and my group of friends would love Tarkov as just a PVE game, but the devs are, for whatever reason, vehemently against that. (Getting killed by extract campers just a few too many times does that to a person, I guess lol.)

[@azathoththe3rd]

Well that's a legitimate strategy cause warfare is inherently not fair

[@Sodiumman123]

​@Azathoth the 3rd. Okay but that doesn't make me want to spend my time doing it. War is unfair. But video games should be. Or at least be FUN.

[@Biouke]

Camp the campers THEN go PvE :p

[@lynxk9372]

@@Sodiumman123 ohhh but I is fun :3

[@shannenmr]

Google for the "SP Tarkov" mod

[@truetrueevil1]

Was the final thesis "WOW" but only raids no world traversal? That wasn't where I thought that was going.... or sounding good.....

[@timogul]

This is called a "Hardcore PvP MMO." They tend to be very ambitious and then fail because not enough players want both MMO and hardcore PvP.

[@Poormrworry]

Final Fantasy 14 proves that what makes an mmo succeed is consistent and well made game content. it has been growing every year and it has won multiple awards every year. it won best rpg from pcgamer twice! Lost ark and new world failed because they are ONLY about numbers. there is no reason to play them once you have the best numbers. players keep playing ff14 in between expansions because they are honestly excited about where the story is going. the last expansion was sold almost solely on its narrative. yeah it has new zones, new jobs and cool gameplay inclusions, but nobody bought it for those things. they bought it to see the storyline. and in a world where you can just watch the cutscenes on KZbin that is a big deal.

[@lordzendikar]

Short form games are great for me, since I often don't have the time to play for hours on end

[@Hawkeye446]

I have nothing against anyone who likes this style of game, several of my friends love Tarkov, but as a great lover of FFXIV myself, there is one thing missing, the very thing that I love most about FFXIV. The story. The mechanics of FFXIV are fine. Neither great nor terrible, though they have done some very fun things with it. But what has kept me coming back to this game is a fantastic story populated by great characters. I'm no expert on Tarkov or Deep Rock Galactic, Pub G, or basically any of the other titles mentioned, so I could be wrong and feel free to correct me if I am, but story seems nearly if not entirely absent. Certainly nothing with the scope of a FF game that you can play with your friends. (or solo if you prefer, NPC companions has been rolled out for all Main Story dungeons at least) So while I see where you're coming and going with this, I don't see story driven games going away, and I really hope that at least one or two of the ones with really great stories add (Massively) Multiplayer to the mix.

[@Hauntaku]

Maybe you could make a video about how limited inventory is good game design? I'm working on a roguelike which limits your type of item to the most recent one only. For example: Player has 11 roses. If player completes the 10 rose quest then player loses any additional roses once they pick up their quest reward which is a golden key. If player has a golden key when touching a new reward then keys will be swapped out with the new item. This makes every item more rare and encourages the player to think before swapping for a reward or other item. I will also have quest locked doors in my game so players must complete quests to see more of the game. This can lead to potential softlocks so I've been working hard fixing up any hiccups in the code.

[@JohnDoe-rl9ft]

Not sure if this meshes all that well with the looter mindset. Because the joy of finding something new is vastly diminished if you know that you have to drop one of your precious other items for it.

[@c0i9z]

'Deeper into the dungeon' is interesting there. It might not have to be separate maps, then. Simply, the further you go into the game world, the more dangerous it becomes, but also the more rewarding. And that means you might have to be wary of other players when making your way back through the lower danger zones.

[@IanBoyte]

So say what you might about the direction it's gone and its long state of development hell, but this is exactly what the MMORPG Crowfall was pitching way back in 2015. I haven't kept up with what the state of the game has become lately, but they were building essentially what Tarkov would be in a fantasy MMO context, except instead of hours, the extraction period would be weeks or months.

[@Biouke]

It flopped horribly. But the servers are still up, I think? Not sure about that.

[@philipstuckey4922]

Dark and Darker (rip) had a mechanic where at the end of each level you'd have the option to either escape or descend deeper into the dungeon. the only problem with this is you still have noobs mixing with experienced players, so as a new player the stronger players become the scariest part of the environment

[@xXRickTrolledXx]

Never say die. Dark and Darker is going to come back with their own launcher for the 14th, mark my words.

[@PuppetDev]

​@@xXRickTrolledXx You were pretty close. They made a torrent instead.

[@xXRickTrolledXx]

@@PuppetDev Close enough *shrug* Edit: Plink plink plonk gang rise.

[@ZerveDA]

Your solution is basically Destiny's Lost sector gameplay loop. Numbers go up, do the 'hard' version of the same lost sector, then do it solo, then do the even harder one and honestly it is not appealing to have danger be for danger's sake

[@jacobcantrell3526]

I personally play a Loot-'n-Scoot, on the Oculus Quest 2 (VR headset). In Ghosts of Tabor, there is a shop system. You can complete contracts from different vendors in order to level them up. Doing this allows you to buy better guns. When you obtain guns, or other collectables, you have a choice. You can either: hang the gun up on your wall, looking impressive, but collecting dust until you eventually use it, sell it, thereby increasing level with whoever you sell it too, or bring it with you on the next raid. They don't force you to bring it on any raid you don't want to. This also means that you can spend a bit of cash you acquire to buy guns you know and love. Interactions with other people is rather interesting as well. Mic are open. You can talk and hear anyone. Even if you party with people, you can still kill them (evil laughing intensifies while I bath in my friends blood).

[@gibbous_silver]

the “escape looter” sounds somewhat similar to Sea of Thieves

[@robertgrey5887]

A excellent example of this kind of game could be Dark and Darker, which is very much a loor"N"Scoop kind of game. A game that is already using the ideas that you have mentioned, such as harder maps, and a forms of meta progression.

[@ptmountford]

Have you seen the Vault Hunters Minecraft modpack? The only thing it fails at is there is Minecraft farm building needed to open the next dungeon.

[@TCPolecat]

God I hope it isn't the future of MMOs. I'm not a fan of the systems you described, and I eschew ALL pvp, and hate time limit pressures...

[@liamfallon3981]

Tarkov does have some unlocking harder levels with labs, and there are harder npcs. Still pvp, but I just kept thinking "some of that is already in tarkov"

[@silverscalederg8632]

I'd love to see a fantasy MMO where you can play one of two main "factions" either the "humans" (elves dwarves and other look identical to human species) and "monsters" such as kobolds gnolls dragons and the like. You can absolutely kill but if you over reach and get killed you loose everything...start from the very beginning. Would be a great experiment too and would also give people who want to hunt monsters a fulfilling quest...and those who really always wanted to play as a "monster" instead of a boring human you know like how a "ROLEPLAYING" game is meant to allow. For roleplaying sake. So many "RPGS" have one side...forced to be a human hero dude. Sure some side quests and some minor choices but it never felt as open.

[@alexnikols8996]

You need to check out Dark & Darker! It checks every single box your talking about, AND is currently in a tough spot due to corporate greed (attempts to copyright “Ranger” as a class by another company). It’s truly amazing!!!

[@jujube9748]

I didn't realize until after watching this video that there was a game I was obsessed with that fits this genre perfectly: Starbreak. It was a run-n-gun platformer with this Loot-n-Scoot mechanics, which I just described at the time as a roguelite Contra MMORPG. I used to love playing this because the shorter cycles caused by a perma-death mechanic meant that even with the latest updates, I could always pick up the game without my gear becoming obsolete. I eventually stopped playing though when the combination of lack of new features, a shrinking playerbase making the dungeons more difficult to party up for, and just real life picking back up, but i would love to play this type of game again to recapture the experience of this genre.

[@tom4ivo]

There was an MMORPG about 5 years ago called "Worlds Adrift". Its unique quality was that it had floating islands scattered in a 3 dimensional space, and you traveled from island to island on player designed and built ships, and you had a grapple tool that allowed you to spiderman around the islands and ships. It was PvE in that players had to gather resources to build ships and to fight against monsters and the elements. It was also PvP, with players and ships battling it out. You could lose almost everything if you were killed or your ship destroyed. Game progression was via knowledge; you learned to build better versions of things, and while you could lose your material possessions, you would always retain your knowledge. Unfortunately, the developers wanted a pirates fighting each other game (like Sea of Thieves, I think), and made it too easy for players to destroy ships and also made death barely more than a 2 minute inconvenience. The result was that the starting zone islands were awash in psychopaths who just killed and destroyed without building anything. Other than a few well organized guilds who mounted expeditions against other guilds, most people got discouraged by the constant griefing and quit. The developers weren't willing to cater more to the people into PvE. Which is too bad, as I was really into building better ships, exploring islands and new zones, and improving movement and fighting (against monsters) skills. Haven't found anything like it since.

[@LucasBarbosa-ds9de]

I don't understand, what's the difference between this proposed game and what an MMO themepark already has?

[@Precambrian-Rabbit]

With that expanded definition of "Escape Looter", I realize that one of my favourite games of all time, Azure Dreams (1996) qualifies. The core gameplay loop is a turn-based roguelike progression up a tower. You always start floor 1 at level 1, and you can carry gear into the tower, but lose everything if you're knocked out before you use the (uncommon, consumable) item that lets you leave with your stuff intact. There's progression not only from the items you successfully extract, but also the monster companions you raise (who DON'T get reset to level 1), and the nearby town you're rebuilding. Truly a hidden gem.

[@DarkInos]

To be fair.. all of it would work for Dark and Darker (if they survive DMCA), I really do hope they will add pure PvE mods, or some ways to protect your gear you wear at least for special mods or something. Not every time you want to risk all of your stuff... and for those who say "Then play different game" buck them.. I want to play the game the game I really like, but in different ways if possible O.o

[@GeorgeCowsert]

Imma be honest, I only clicked on the video cause I saw the orc, then your logo, then remembered that infamous day. I sincerely hope everyone behind this channel got their act together since then. If not, then I'd like the five cents in ad revenue I generated back.

[@vithei477]

Very much reminds of realm of the mad god. PvE, mmo, "extraction", in between character vault

[@Raiaka]

What you ended up describing is essentially a hub based mmo with random generation added to the deployment zones. To be honest, that kinda sounds unsatisfying.

[@lumberfoot_jpg]

It would be cool if there was a game with “rotating live maps.” Which would have a list of scheduled events each week. For example… Map 1 (The Dark Forest) would be an early game area with easy NPC quests, but once a week the area boss would awaken from its slumber and transform the entire area into an improv open world raid. No NPC quests would be allowed until said raid was completed by the community. Early zone raids would take 12-24 hours to complete but later game raids might have the area boss active for 12-24 days. Thus locking down all the rare items and quests until the community could successfully coordinate a raid clear. The same kind of event could happen once a week on a different map, but this time with a more PvP theme. For example… Map 2 (Devil’s Mountain) could have anyone that joins be greeted with “The War Goddess has grown displeased by the affairs of man. To satiate her rage, offer her the blood of your enemies.” And this would force everyone on this map into one huge PvP survival event with various win conditions. Like… player with most kills get S tier prize, players with x amount of kills get A tier prize, players with zero deaths get unique mystery prize, etc. etc. etc.

[@Zombie_Bun]

I used to call the genre extract-shooter. But after Dark and Darker came out, I felt like it was more apt to call it extract-looter

[@darthtace]

What this sounds like is a good idea for Planetside 3 (or a similar-style game) -- having a persistent war being built atop PvE exploration sounds extremely challenging, but I think it'd be fascinating overall. The PvE could even filter into the overarching war as "logistics," meaning it could be as, or more, vital to the war effort than the actual frontline soldiers. The zerg could rely on the farmers for resource procurement which would allow for mass production of cheap gear so they could keep charging in like idiots, while farmers could get special drops that allowed them to truly devastate the battlefield if they farm for long enough (which could be passed onto members of the person's guild if they'd really rather be playing PvE). Throw in some raid-bosses that the farmers would have to rush to assist with, some way to send small raid parties to disrupt farmers, or other crossover events and I think that's the foundation of a solid gameplay loop that'd allow players to focus on either PvE or PvP, or mix both. Of course, balancing that sounds like it'd make me want to die, but it's an interesting concept.

[@LucioDesignOK]

I do think that Tactical FPS like squad or Hell Let Loose have very interesting features that teach you about how to make a shooter PvP experience be cooperative in a larger scale, as it pushes you to not being a lone-wolf, makes you responsible for your role that you choose and makes you interact with your team to formulate a strategy. Winning those matches is great, as usually the better organized teams are the ones that prevail

[@willichtenstein7071]

I've been heavily playing. SCP:containment breach. Its a free fan made game. 20 players to a game, sides are random. Monster players kill the humans, scientists and convicts escape the underground facility, and soldiers are all the dead players re spawning to try and save the left over humans on either side. what makes this so engaging is that the monsters are incredibly powerful, but also with severe weaknesses. A player can be a statue that inst akills anyone it touches, but can't move when its looked at. Another monster that is slow and can't attack, unless some one looks at it. It then becomes super fast and super strong. Monsters who can only see players making noises like running or opening doors, ect. You might notice that if the players that get to be monsters work together have no downsides and are going to have a good time. Mean while wave upon wave of 10+ soldiers will throw themselves at the monsters (and attack each other) while trying to find and save the last escapees. Now there's 0 progression, but throwing yourself at monsters with little regard for your own safety is part of the fun.

[@luxweaver2706]

You are describing Project Zomboid with it's multiplayer on.

[@Vynirian]

God Zomboid is such a good game.

[@Tigersight0]

Mothergunship has some elements of this. It's single player, purely PvE, but it has the short levels for compact playsessions, and you good bit of it revolves around collecting new gun parts as you progress through the level, so you can bring them back to stock up your armory. But if you die, there goes everything. The only real downside is that when you go into levels, there are some seriously heavy restrictions on how many parts you can bring in from your armory, so you still start each run with pretty barebones weapons. Of course you also risk losing those parts if you die in the level, so it's a bit of a trade off. Can't lose piles of great gear in one shot if they don't let you bring that much gear with you in the first place.

[@n3rdf0xx04]

I actually have a game idea that sorta fits in with shoot n' scoot but also takes inspiration from car games namely Jalopy, My Summer Car, and Beware, but premise inspired by the Prohibition of the 1920's except it's in a fictional country at a dystopian future, basically shoot n' scoot but with cars and the players aren't survivors, their smugglers

[@nightbane2889]

when you started talking about maps...I was actually reminded of Deep Rock Galatic Single or team based fun, drop in drop out. relativel short sessions. Complete the objective via working togeather (So PvE) Different maps offer different enviromental effects and hazards In the begining, you gain progress to unlock weapon mods, and after you get all that there skins End Game: You got deep dives, which are harder multi-map, multi objective maps, which reward currency and special overclocks

[@videogamer596]

This honestly reminds me of a modernized Dungeons and Dragons Online. The gameplay in that MMO was entirely in fostering teams of up to 6 to venture into scenario dungeon instances with lots of tools for difficulty, each player having different roles to play, with the meta progression being the standard MMO of the time, but the moment to moment gameplay feeling quite different. It very much feels its age now, but I bet it has a lot of good lessons for a Massive-Multiplayer PvE focused Escape Looter, since in effect, that’s what it was (and still is, servers are up, just with only a few hundred players who have been playing it for years). But it does have most of the features you listed. I recently returned to DDO because Dark and Darker reminded me so much of the feel of it.

[@GoofballPaul]

My first extraction shooter was Minecraft GTA, years before Tarkov, a series of minecraft servers that used plugins datapacks and resource packs to turn pickaxes into submachineguns, snowballs into proper bullets, minecarts into driveable cars, and mobs into cops and thugs. Pretty much each server did something a little different. You could extract from anywhere, just type /spawn and stand still without getting hurt for a server-determined amount of seconds. Very casual, very fun, I miss it a lot and ever since then I've been waiting for a refinement to come out. But everything I see for now is much grittier and less arcadey... :/

[@majorfallacy5926]

The logical progression would be to also feature an open world, at which point it would be a permadeath mmo with fewer quests. Which most mmo players have dreamed about for decades anyway, the idea just never made it to the light of day outside of a few clunky modded wow servers

[@boredfangerrude]

Except, permadeath is not necessary as a forced thing, let it be optional.

[@lizzarddoggo8775]

Idea: Instead of forcing players into a map with a deticated party, allow them to go with virtually any size team, and then allow them to join parties with players they stumble across mid game. Imagine you are navigating a dungeon, and soon realize you are not prepared for this, as a boss comes to beat you senseless. Suddenly, another takes advantage of the situation, uses you as a distraction, and eliminates the boss. He turns his gun on you but you ask him to stop, he does. You drop him a heal and he gives you a weapon. Now you two travel together to victory, you even saving your new friend from certain death a time or two. This mechanic is directly taken from a game called the cycle, an extraction shooter esque game, but without meta progression, and has this mid game party feature. This mechanic would be perfect in a mmo extraction shooter, as players can organically make factions within the game and recruit others by helping them.

[@BasKr1996]

PVE Looter Scooter: Deep Rock Galactic PVP MMO Looter Scooter: Albion Online

[@Kenionatus]

Deep Rock Galactic isn't a Looter Scooter / Extraction Looter because you don't risk your gear by dying nor are you incenticiced to stay longer to earn more.

[@AusSkiller]

If I wanted unfair mechanics, the chance to lose things I've worked hard for, and to have dozens of hours of my life go to waste because some jerk wants that, then I'd just spend more time IRL. I play games to get away from that stuff, I have no idea how this sort of game is at all popular (well except for the jerks who revel is the misery of others).

[@Vynirian]

Different tastes. I can be a rat in Fortnite or Apex all I want, but I don't get to keep anything if I win. Tarkov, for example, lets me rat tf out and scavenge for many shiny things. Shinies make rat brain go brrrrr.

[@AusSkiller]

@@Vynirian Different tastes is right. I can't understand why people like these games, but I'm happy they exist for the people that do. I really struggle with them though, even when I win I just feel too horrible about what I have done to the other players to be able to enjoy the win 🙁

[@David13ushey]

This is a premise of a game I had that's basically isekei, the game. You're reborn into an adventurer in a city with a portal leading to dungeons that are mutable pocket dimensions. Each is procedurally generated upon entry, but with some consistencies like monster types, bosses, and the like. The deeper you go and the longer you stay, the more dangerous it becomes. If you die you lose everything but keep exp to advance ability. The city itself provides narrative quests and goals that can be worked into new dungeons. The more people in your group, the more hard core and difficult the dungeon is, but if you want to singleman it, you could technically try that too.

[@Gyrono]

Sounds like an expansion of the Chalice dungeons from Bloodborne, so a proven concept that producers wouldn't toss out of hand.

[@David13ushey]

@@Gyrono I know procedural dungeons go all the way back to everquest. The other shakeup I hope for is making classes more akin to mix and match skill abilities where you can build the class you want rather than the class you're assigned. I suppose that's more akin to monster hunter or eve online.

My problem with Tarkov is that if you are not absurdly Pro you will never, ever will exit with nothing. You will lost all your gear to the point of dont have gear anymore.

[@Theran_1]

think about a "GTFO" but wrapped in an MMO format, you are trying to escape a facility you wake up on and get matched with 4 randoms every time and its as hard as GTFO is, ruthless gameplay tahst heaviely punishing of mistakes, but the progress you make gets saved some way too, man this is awsome

[@sebastienlabbe4647]

Borderlands 3 of all things has a gamemode like this actually, however you start every run from square one and progress through the mission collecting weapons which you can use on the spot, at the end, you get to pick a handful of the best ones you found to keep permanently.

[@kymourdarkmyth799]

I haven't been on MMOs that much ever since EQ2 was sold off from SOE. but one of my favorite parts of that game was when you were able to craft needed items and sell them. where made your experience valuable enough for other players to purchase your wares. MMOs were fun when you can do multiple things in them, craft for in-game sales, Lore hunts for achievements, Group hunts to take down hard Mobs, Raids for end-game content, and PVP arenas for those that want that content. I believe that without this multiple-playstyle ability, MMOs started to die.

[@verathorn1556]

its interesting that video games are only now discovering this game loop considering that board and miniatures games have used this as a common game mode for decades. Table top skirmish war games especially have relied heavily on this as a core appeal with group campaigns and events.

[@GREENSP0RE]

Reminds me of Warframe before their huge direction switch to open world content and super high level characters.

[@GREENSP0RE]

I think a permadeath mode with non space ninja characters and a small personal vault could do wonders in that game.

[@ASpaceOstrich]

Tarkov itself has the bones of an MMO built into it. Theres a bunch of planned features that feel like they're probably never going to come, based on connecting the separate maps together, making it more open worldy, and having the titular event as an endgame goal.

[@TheBackyardChemist]

this is sort of already here with Deep Rock Galactic

[@Alfr3d_F]

I keep thinking this, but I am only 2 minutes in the video

[@tomfeng5645]

Now that I think about it, eastern mobile games have a very similar formula. Fight stages => upgrade characters => fight harder stages. Some are PvE focused, some are PvP focused, and a few are coorperative. It sucks that most of them are gatcha-monetized, but the gameplay formula is there.

[@underdog353777]

This is actually quite a bit like The Cycle: Frontier, not that it doesn't have its flaws - but it does describe a lot of what you also described.

[@superhond1733]

Mmo's for casual people. Thats how you explain this.

[@StompinPaul]

Huh. So, this reminds me of a thought I've had for a while, which is that roguelike and battle royale are basically the same genre, except that the former derives the threat from generated NPCs and environments, while the latter derives the threat from resource limitations and other players. Both aim for shorter sessions, and both are generally built around the idea that the end of a game removes most progression, with each new run being a mostly fresh start. I like the idea of a pve or coop focused battle royale, it appeals to me a lot, though I'm unsure if it could gain traction. Most battle royale games I've seen prominently feature the pvp, whether that's deliberate or a natural consequence, and most coop games I've seen tend to mostly just be small groups, either premade or matchmade, and I think a sort of pve battle royale would be both hard to run and maybe difficult to get people on board with. Nonetheless I think it's at least hypothetically possible, and I'd love to see someone try. I imagine, to really make it work (and not just a bunch of people/groups playing their own games coincidentally in the same place) there would need to be a lot of care put into making it make sense for players to stop to help others or make a point of helping, with enough risk to make it interesting, and it would have to made worthwhile to be saved or helped in this way.

[@piciaxel]

we're getting closer to a roguelike mmo in this. i like it

[@StudioJacke]

Guys please play and support Dark and Darker, an advanced-dnd style escape looter.Small team but they have something really special going on

[@j.desoto5870]

EQ had it right with XP loss for death and having to retrieve your corpse. The only way you could be high level was by being good at the game, and in-game reputation was huge as getting your group wiped cost everyone 25%(?) of their level upon death. Add to that you could delevel by dying too much, you had a skill heavy game that was easy to learn and hard to master.

[@_korbo_]

I think the biggest issue here is twofold, usually MMO worlds are huge, because replaying the same area for hours on end can get a bit boring. If you're going to have replayable "maps" that a player is expected to play let's say "hundreds" of times, there's gotta be a gimmick there to entice the player, wherein comes PvP. PvP games feel by nature somewhat different to play every single time, because you're playing against players, and players behave erratically differently and more or less skillfully as you go up or down the rankings in a way that would be almost impossible to replicate with a bot. However well you program an AI enemy, playing against AI is usually more or less a solvable problem, where once after you solve it, it quickly gets less and less interesting the more you play the same thing. If someone manages to find a way to make a PvE game where you Don't have hundreds of maps and hundreds of enemies, but are still enticed to play the same maps again and again, then I'd say they deserve to be the "revolutionary" successors of MMOs.

[@drallagon]

Hmm, as a MMO(RPG) player myself, I hate the idea of substituting the genre with this concept I have absolute no interest in; quite the opposite, since I'm into the progression and story elements, the idea of losing everything seem rather demotivating, if anything. imo new MMOs tend to fail because they cost too much to make properly, so most of the time corners are cut, games are launched with too little content and people simply lose interest for not having anything to progress on. In a sense I see how the concept presented on the video would "save" MMOs, since it would surely have player retention if done right. However I think that would end up creating a situation worse than the current RNG gear drop-rates problems we already have. What I see is that while people stop playing MMOs when they're done, until new content is released, that's exactly the appeal when you get older. In comparison, always losing everything would create an endless treadmill and you could never really move on to play other games. I'm over 30 and I played WoW Dragonflight for two months about 2 hours a day and stopped, now with a new patch I'm coming for another month and stopping until next patch. So yes, having this concept implemented would be great for the companies, but what about the players? In a way MMOs may be seen as adult players' games, while looter shooters more akin to teenager or young adult things. Those are two different markets imo.

[@thmsbarber]

So, as a PvE exclusive version. RotMG kinda fits and has been around long enough that its had time to peak, decline, and expose the issues that such a system presents. technically its not quite the same, as extract is always one button away, but it fits the loose definition.

[@Charon85Onozuka]

Never got into MMORPGs, but the one thing from it that I feel like I missed out on was Raid bosses. It sounds like this type of genre could be a good way to reintroduce the concept of having a large number of players needing to team up against a single overwhelming boss that could be very fun. That said, I'm not to keen on perma-death being pushed here. I like the tension of perma-death in (some) single-player games, but hate the idea of losing progression due to a bad PVP matchup or poor teammate.

[@lucastaylor417]

Honestly both The Cycle: Frontier and GTFO come very close (in different ways) to what you are describing. GTFO is close to the PvE only version, and Cycle includes a lot of the map progression you describe

[@talongreenlee7704]

When you described the essence of an extraction looter, I immediately thought of Mordheim. An excellent example of your point that it doesn’t have to be a real time shooter.

[@anoninunen]

MMORPG-Royalle - many players, many goals, many landmarks, minimal winners, minimal power-creep, minimal survivability

[@KEY_RA__]

dark and darker could be the thing that you guys gonna like, dungeon diving extraction looter game