How fast should you run your Hornby Model?

So how fast should we run our trains on our model railways? How fast is too fast?
General wisdom is that many modellers run their trains too quickly to be realistic. I usually like to run mine quite slowly, and especially enjoy an unfitted goods trains behind an old 4F for example. However, we thought we would put the question to the test with using Neville Grove weathered unrebuilt Merchant Navy. What do you think?
Although on paper these were proposed as mixed traffic machines, in reality the Merchant Navy's were designed and built for hauling heavy expresses - and fast!
The Hornby Unrebuilt Merchant Navy is also extremely powerful and suitably quick. You can see here that even with 11 coaches on the hook, this model can fly...
If you would like to work out the approximate scale speed of your models then follow these steps:
1). Measure any given set length on your layout and place a clear marker at each end. A straight run of track is ideal, and the longer the length, the more accurate you will be.
(My distance was 3.34 metres).
2). Use the stopwatch on your phone to time how long it takes the cab of the loco to pass from one to the other. Do this at least 3 times and take an average.
(The average time taken for Channel Packet here was 6.5 seconds).
3). Speed = Distance / Time. So use the length and times from above to insert into the formula. This is the speed that your model is travelling.
(in this case 3.34m / 6.5s = 0.51 metres per second.
4). I wanted to work out the speed in Miles per Hour. So to do this you need to multiply the speed of your model by 2.237. By the way, there are various conversion tools online if you are converting between different units.
(Therefore 0.51 x 2.237 = 1.14mph). This is the speed of the model Channel Packet in miles per hour.
5). Of course OO gauge models are 1/76 scale and therefore the speed of the model is also 76 times smaller than the speed of the imaginary real sized train.
(1.16mph x 76 = 86.64mph).
The real Channel Packet would therefore be travelling at approximately 87mph.
For what its worth I think the larger the layout is, and the more gradual the visible curves are, the faster the model can travel without looking unrealistic. Sharp curves are inevitable for most of us, but for scale speed running these should be hidden if possible to avoid ruining the illusion. The smoothness of the track layout and how well it is laid is also key.
For more information on my layout design service, check out my website and get in contact for a chat. Please also feel free to leave questions or thoughts in the comments below.
This model is pride of the Bluffers to Buffers fleet where it and a lot more besides can be seen on their most excellent KZbin Channel: • Oily Rag Weathered DCC...
As for the real Merchant Navies, the Southern Railway and later the Southern Region had a blanket speed limit of 90mph, so they could never compete for any sort of speed record. Of course Southern enginemen were convinced that a Merchant Navy could clinch Mallards speed record away from the LNER if one was let loose down Stoke Bank. Bulleid was heavily involved with the design of the A4's afterall!
Right at the very end of Southern Region steam in 1967, and as a swansong for these fine machines, there were several instances of drivers taking them above 100mph (albeit unofficially as the 90mph speed restriction was still in place!) This is when the Merchant Navy fleet had been rebuilt but most were well over 20 years old, and the general condition of them was poor as they were being run down towards the end of their working lives.
Sounds used in this video are a mixture of archive sounds recorded by Peter Handford, and more recent video taken by the lineside with my dad and cousin. Archive sound feature courtesy of Old Thundridge Records.
Special thanks to Tim for his expert help with conceiving and compiling this video.

[@harrylye9553]

Blatantly ignoring the 25mph limit through the station... great video! Love seeing models really get to open it up 💪

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching! 😂Haha - the speed restriction is not quite what it seems as it applies to the diverging route through the goods loops (indicated by the arrow beneath the figures).

[@harrylye9553]

@@NEVILLEGROVE ohh yeah that makes sense, didn’t even notice the arrow until you pointed it out!

[@davidanthonybatten9150]

A lot depends on the size of your layout. The speeds you show there look great, but put that speed on a small oval and everyone would fly out the outer windows into your coffee. :)

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Yes I completely agree, and thanks for watching. Nothing ruins the illusion quicker than model trains hurtling round a sharp bend. However this isn’t a massive layout so I think it’s also a matter of hiding / disguising the sharp bends and factoring in strategic camera angles when designing the layout. Gradual transitions from straights into the sharper curves are also key. 👍👍👍

[@marcelsmodels]

It’s unnerving seeing a loco go round a small layout very quickly

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

@@marcelsmodels 😂 certainly can be, and will never be realistic to watch.

[@HROM1908]

I have always thought that scale speeds are much more fun to watch. I've also thought about other details such as weighting down each piece of rolling stock. It sounds more realistic. Also buffers that do not touch are worth some consideration.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

It does add an extra layer of realism, no matter how well detailed, accurate and realistic looking a layout / train is, at too fast a speed (relative to the bend in the track) the illusion is shattered

[@naajohnnorthcott8267]

"Fast as a speeding Bullied". Oh dear oh dear. Apun my soul! By the way, I liked the way that, with the exception of one shot, you managed to conceal the fact that the vestibules weren't connected. This always upset me with my train set as a child; my attempts to correct it with folded black paper were a failure.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Yes the camera angle can often prove the best solution!

[@Ballinalower]

It is quite inexplicable why prototypical close coupling is still not common on Hornby coaches. It has been available on Continental models since the 1970s and pretty much standard since the 1990s.

[@nathanglover8437]

Lovely to see in a suitably sized layout. Will be a while before I have a straight stretch long enough for such things!

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Thanks for watching and good luck with the layout!

[@Ballinalower]

Every passenger already needs to make a daring 8 foot jump to get from one Hornby coach to another. This certainly adds to the excitement.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Haha yeah, except they’re Bachmann coaches 😂

[@tommartin5]

Great hangover viewing!

[@tommartin5]

Really enjoyed that! Fantastic video - Bulleid for you! 😉 😂

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

😂 Great! As ever thanks Tom for watching 👍

[@MrDavil43]

I seem to remember a rail tour hauled by 35022 Holland-America Line, the Exeter Flyer in 1966(?) when people on board who were timing it got rather excited as the speed they all claimed was about 98mph around Honiton. I remember the coaches swaying quite noticeably. Exciting times!

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Wow! Yeah that must have been exhilarating with Steam Haulage and on jointed track.

[@MrDavil43]

@@NEVILLEGROVE I was told afterwards that the Inspector on the footplate stopped the driver taking it over 100, maybe I should be grateful to that gentleman, but I did feel a tad disappointed.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

@@MrDavil43 Perhaps 🤔 A good example of where these fine machines were held back by the infrastructure / company policy.

[@warragulbogan]

Your layout is beautiful

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Thank you very much indeed, and thanks for watching.

[@kiwitrainguy]

Is this speed unrealistic? Not at all, it looked perfectly natural to me. It added to the realism you've achieved with your layout. I have a Hornby Merchant Navy class myself and I have measured its maximum speed at 118 mph but that was running light loco the same as I have measured all my locos and self-propelled vehicles (DMU's & EMU's). The way I've done mine is by making up a chart with speed markings spaced out. I run the locos past and video them and then see how far they run over a period of 1 second. I have two scales on it, one for 1:76 and one for 1:87 as I run both HO and OO. I only have one curve radius on my layout which is 3 feet / 907 mm. This gives a scale radius of 3.4 chains in 1:76 scale or 3.9 chains in 1:87 scale. Of course the Merchant Navy class was designed as an express loco but as it was during the Second World War and introducing new designs of express locos was banned by the powers-that-be Bullied got around it by calling them Mixed Traffic locos.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Thanks for the interesting comment, you sound like an expert on the subject and the method you’ve developed ingenious. It does add another dimension of control if we can run to a line speed, especially with the long brake and accelerating settings that are possible with DCC these days. The new Hornby Merchant Navy is a magnificent model. I currently have 7 on the workbench that will feature in a bumper video shortly. Watch this space!

[@PHsRailwayVideos]

That does look brilliant, but seen as I model a heritage railway I try to usually run engines at a scale speed of 25 mph.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Yes and usually easier to look right on a model I'd say. Having said that, over the years we have been for trips on 2 separate heritage railways where we had it with good authority that we were nudging the 50mph mark! The runs were fantastic as we were in the front window, but the railway / locos shall remain anonymous here...

[@PHsRailwayVideos]

@@NEVILLEGROVE I once went to a gala where they recreated the 15 Guinea Express, but I'd say that was an exception.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

@@PHsRailwayVideos ah yes I think I know where / when you’re talking about!

[@PHsRailwayVideos]

@@NEVILLEGROVE Yeah, it was the Great Central Railway on the 12th of August 2018.

[@nigelgresley87546]

This video satisfied me sooo much! And of course it’s not unrealistic, I mean their top speed is 105mph, but the look of the wheels sent me to Heaven!!

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Awesome I’m glad you enjoyed. Yes indeed and that was just the drivers that were brave enough to own up to speeding. Interesting to ponder what speeds they could have reached regularly without the Southern’s blanket 90mph speed limit.

[@nigelgresley87546]

@@NEVILLEGROVE or without a full rake of coaches behind them

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

@@nigelgresley87546 indeed, a mere seven coaches down Stoke Bank with a brand new and hand picked member of the class??? 🤔

[@chutalotr]

I have a friend [sadly died now] who reconed that they had exceeded Mallards record on the Tonbridge to Ashford section - don't know which Bulleid class it was though.

[@nigelgresley87546]

@@chutalotr Bulleid only ever built 4 classes of engine, the Merchant Navy, the West Country, the Leader Class, and the BR 11010

[@Benji_transport_vids]

Personally, for me, this question depends on how clean your track is or how smooth the engine's running performance is. For say, I had a dirty track but a nice runner, it would run (or at least look) better at fast speeds since it's not picking up the lack of cleanness on the track as well as it in slow speeds.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Running fast can hide a multitude of sins, but the track needs to be laid very smoothly otherwise the loco will lurch suddenly over joints which I personally think is very unrealistic looking.

[@Benji_transport_vids]

@@NEVILLEGROVE fair point

[@unixbadger]

Steam locomotives were festooned with moving parts - the nemesis of mechanical engineers, but the schedule asserts its demands, and you do what you gotta do. It is astonishing how fast steam locomotives could move. I love finding old movies that inadvertently showcase old steam at the hustle, e.g. "Murder She Said" (1961). Steam loco's dashing all over the place!

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Ooh I’ll have to check that film out too! Yes a lot of reciprocating motion at high speed the forces must have been pretty high and for miles on end. I believe the cabs were modified on these Merchant Navies to obscure the view of the connecting rods whizzing round - hence the “step” in front of the forward cab window on later designs.

[@donsharpe5786]

60 miles per hour is 88 feet per second, based on 4mm per foot it is 35.2cm (13.85" in old money) per second. In one minute it must travel just over 2 meters per minute (2.112 m per minute). That is if we keep the second as a scale second. 90 miles an hour would be just one 3 m per minute.

[@ightenhillsim]

speed looked great - its those 6 ft+ gaps from the UKs idiotic tension couplings (it looks like you running a mix with some replacements) that ruin the whole illusion (try some corridor connections from Peters Spares)- great video though

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Yes I have used the Bachmann close couplers that are supplied with the Mk1's that drastically improve the look but are inconvenient as they are difficult to uncouple. I will probably replace with Hint magnetic couplers as time and budget permits. I was also thinking of making some crude corridor connections myself at some point, but now I'll have a look at Peters Spares first - thank you!

[@davidroberts1448]

Done

[@northernutahlivesteam3566]

Fast is fun!

[@gavincarr911]

Would u not run the trains 72 times slower than the actual running speed?

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Yes exactly, except actually 76 times slower (OO gauge is 1:76).

[@grapepunch9672]

You use as fast as you want

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Aye!

[@ghailanrailfansIDdp1]

0:25

[@JamesSmith-mv9fp]

SPEED ON YOUR LAYOUT: Indeed but you didn't tell anyone how to figure out how fast their trains are going. It can be done fairly easily as follows. A quarter mile (440yds) at 60mph should take 15 seconds. So 440yds (x3) = 1,320ft, and we know that each real foot is 4mm in OO scale. So 1,320ft x 4 = 5280mm or 5.28 metres. If you can measure out this distance around your layout and put a marker there. Then you simply drive a train back and forth until you traverse the marked distance in 15 seconds. 100mph should only take 9 seconds !!!! Happy Modelling.😝

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Thanks for this. See caption!

[@mickcarson8504]

As fast as a speeding bulleid

[@martincollier553]

Excellent weathering on the MN; clean (especially by the standards of the time), but not ex works.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Thanks Martin, yes that was the gist of the brief - nearly new but had seen some hard days work.

[@wadebridgeanddelabolelight1880]

0:37 look at the way the camera shakes giving a real sense of speed love it!!

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Thanks - I must admit that was not necessarily intentional when filming! But it did make the final cut as yeah, it does give that sense of speed!

[@cheetah7813]

He is just burning it out

[@melchestermodelrailway]

Lovely video, how did you establish the scale speed?....... Ah, I just read the description!

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Haha, thanks for watching and thanks for reading. Glad you enjoyed.

[@phil36310]

A great video showing the realism of real speed on OO scale. Interesting your reply to David Anthony Batten. Thanks for sharing. Phil

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Thanks, it was interesting to put together 👍

[@Chris-BognorRegis]

Hi Steve - that was fantastic, I did wonder if trains on model railways were often a bit slow. I have memories of seeing them go through the station out the back really fast. I also remember travelling on them going to Norfolk to see my grandparents in the 1960's. That was in the day when rail fares were cheaper than coaches and carriages actually had lots of people on them. Sadly times changed and we eventually had to catch the coach from Victoria as rail travel was taken away from the working class, far too expensive. Not much different now methinks.. Anyway that footage was excellent, loved every minute of it. Regards Chris

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Hi Chris! Thanks for tuning in again and I’m glad you enjoyed it. Yeah, once got going, steam traction could be very fast. It’s worth remembering that even today the general maximum speed on our main intercity lines are still only 125mph. Slower than Mallards record (albeit a spectacular one off and an HST can cruise at that sort of speed). Must have been great to experience regular Mainline steam on tight schedules and frequent fast running. Of course N gauge gives plenty of scope for gradual bends and straights that lends itself to high speed running compared to OO and larger scales.

[@TheSudrianTerrier653]

87mph scale speed seems realistic for an express train to run on the mainline or in this case your large layout

[@mpeterll]

Even if the real locomotive can reach 100mph, it couldn't do so on the excessively sharp curves we are forced to use on our models, so it will probably look too fast. Also, the faster a model is run, the shorter the distances will seem. That being said . . . It's your model, so run it as fast as you want to. The best speed for any model to run is whatever looks right to the one being entertained by it. When I host operating sessions on my own layout, I have a maximum posted speed of 30mph for all freights and 45mph for passenger trains but I never say anything to anyone who runs too fast because we are all there to have fun.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Hi thanks for watching and yes I agree, generally model trains look far more at home at lower speeds. What I would say though, is that if desired, the design of a layout and the positioning of the curves in particular are crucial for raising the “line speed” of any given layout to make it look right visually. This layout has some very sharp curves - as you say they are unavoidable in most cases, so it’s worth disguising them. Most obviously this can be done by obscuring them with tall trees or tunnels BUT, having a smooth graded transition from straight to curve is just as critical in my opinion. Super Elevation helps too. Other factors include that more and more layouts are being designed with particular views in mind for the camera. This one being a case in point - I carefully designed it with specific views that are of the very large radius sweeping curves. As a consequence, the downside is that even tighter curves are inevitable somewhere in the corner of the layout to compensate. But this doesn’t necessarily matter if strategically planned so those parts are out of view or shot. They are only suitable for a 4F trundling around on a loose fitted goods at 15mph! - see my other video on this channel. Thanks for watching.

[@angeloavanti2538]

great information on scale speed. thanks.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

No problem Angelo, I hope you can put it to good use.

[@royfearn4345]

That looked about right as I remember the spamcans come hurtling through Templecombe whilst we waited to reverse out to be sent on our leisurely way to Bournemouth West. The Bulleid pacifics were formidable express locos. Mixed traffic my bottom!

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Hi Roy, fascinating comment and incidentally some of the sound recordings here were of Bulleids tearing through Templecombe! So I assume you experienced the S&D first hand then?

[@ricktownend9144]

They used to come pretty fast from Polhill tunnel down through Dunton Green too - despite the curves - and maybe the odd disquieting memory of the Sevenoaks accident...

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

@@ricktownend9144 That must have been quite a site and perhaps a little unsettling if you were furnished with that knowledge at the time.

[@anglonorm173]

Haha, I love the last shot of it blasting past a 25mph sign.

[@neilrobinson9806]

I’d say pretty accurate at full tilt 💘

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Yeah looks great along the straights / shallow curve, but between you and me it looks ridiculous around the hidden shark bends! Unfortunately sharp bends are inevitable for most model railways which is why I have obscured them with the forested area and in tunnels on my layout.

[@davidparry1982]

A I run clockwork antique trains I tend to run near the top end of the scale spectrum! Folks do tend to associate scale with slow, which certainly isn’t the case when it comes to the prototype mainline. The fact that the ‘clickety clack’ of your sound track almost matches the bogies on the side-on shot suggests that the model was travelling about the scale speed relative to the recording of the real thing… I noticed you ignored the speed restriction on the viaduct!

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Your clockwork trains sound intriguing and sound like a lot of fun! I had a platinum 0-4-0 as a kid, I’d like to know if my folks still have it somewhere actually 🤔 With regards to speed and authenticity, I agree those steam locos could really belt along and sometimes the models on Neville Grove have trouble keeping up with the sound track! However I would say that no matter how detailed or brilliantly modelled the illusion is shattered if the model train suddenly lurches from a straight into a sharp bend. Conscious of this I designed long smooth transitions in to the bends which helps. The sharpest bends on the layout (R2) are obscured from view, and including super elevation on curves really helps too. By the way the 70mph speed limit is for the diverging route to the right, and the other speed limit is for the goods loop that diverges to the left. Straight on is line speed and that depends on the model! I’d love a Eurostar to visit one day!

[@davidparry1982]

@@NEVILLEGROVE Yes - as my main collection of trains are essentially toys, the sharp curves are permissible, however my next project will be coarse scale vintage 0 gauge and I have some cunning plans to hide the curves and suggest more space - essential for realism as you say.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

@@davidparry1982 Wow that sounds like another interesting project, good luck with that. By the way I’ve just noticed in my comment that I said I had a “platinum” clockwork loco. I don’t know how that particular auto correct snuck in there - it was actually black plastic!

[@thomasgray4188]

Just found this channel through this video.

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

I’m so glad you have Thomas and welcome aboard! 👍

[@rob235ioa1]

NO such thing as scale speed its impossible as you would have to scale down actual time which is NOT possible also drivers of real trains ran locos at a different speeds

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

True you can’t scale down time. Time stays constant when calculating scale speed. It’s the Distance that is scaled down, in the case of OO gauge, by 76 times. See the caption to this video for a step by step guide 👍

[@neogeotx]

Awesome

[@Philb68888]

#Spamfest

[@BlufferstoBuffers]

Fantastic video 👏 decent loco, too 💪

[@NEVILLEGROVE]

Oh yes. Perhaps as decent as they get 🤔