How Many Jhanas Were There in Early Buddhist Meditation?

Ordinarily it's said that there were four states of jhāna in early Buddhist meditation. But not always! Apart from considering some later understandings of the term that include eight, nine, or even more jhānas, we'll look at one early understanding that saw there to be five. We'll consider this five jhāna progression by looking at a key early sutta, and then consider some possible histories of how this might have developed.
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✅ Videos mentioned:
Playlist on Deep Meditation in Buddhism (includes videos on the four jhānas) -- • Deep Meditation in Bud...
✅ Books mentioned:
Anālayo, Comparative Majjhima Vol. 2 - www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hambu...
Leo Pruden (trans.) The Abhidharmakośabhāṣyam - amzn.to/3m2RroV
✅ Webpage mentioned:
www.leighb.com/howmanyjhanas.htm
✅ Suttas mentioned:
suttacentral.net/mn128/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/sn43.3/en/su...
suttacentral.net/an8.63/en/su...
suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato
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00:00 Intro
01:44 Vitakka and vicāra in the jhānas
03:59 The Upakkilesa Sutta’s description of the Buddha’s attainment of jhāna
07:55 Other suttas with similar claims
08:20 Role of the abhidhamma and sectarianism
10:33 How might this have happened?
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[@DougsDharma]

🧡 If you find benefit in my videos, consider supporting the channel by joining us on Patreon and get fun extras like exclusive videos, ad-free audio-only versions, and extensive show notes: www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma 🙂 📙 You can find my new book here: books2read.com/buddhisthandbook

[@soezone208]

as always excellent video!!, Doug!! love it

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks for watching, Zach!

[@nikhil-nn6mz]

Thanks for this channel, I'm new to this channel and will watch every video from beginning. Hope this helps me in the path of understanding life. ❤️

[@DougsDharma]

Welcome aboard! 🙏😊

[@FranciscoTornay]

Great video as usual. You bring up fascinating topics and provide a very lucid, balanced discussion of them, Doug. One point that I think goes sometimes unappreciated when discussing Buddhist "lists" is the role of oral tradition: for a very long time, Buddhist lore was transmitted orally and committing it to memory was a big part of the sangha's duties: this continued to be true even long after the beginning of a written tradition. Lists of numbered items are better thought of as mnemonic devices, that's why there are so many and why they are not always all that consistent. Modern people read too much into such lists, you have discussed, for example, how the 8-fold path has several variants and how it is unclear whether the fourth path should come before the 5th and so on. In actuality, consciousness states (just as moral principles and many other aspects of the dharma) change continuously and vary from moment to moment, just as the self; thus any clearcut division is just an approximation, so I'm not surprised that there are several ways to "enumerate" the Jhanas. I think it's unfortunate that some practitioners cling so much to these convenient lists and turn them into some kind of ranking or competition.

[@DougsDharma]

Well yes, and the Buddha did explicitly say he sometimes numbered things differently, depending on how finely one wants to enumerate them. These should be taken as heuristics, not necessarily as fixed.

[@chriskaplan6109]

Well said!

[@zombieboy937]

Great video Doug! I would think that the 4 jhanas are descriptions of a spectrum of states of absorption that have various "in-between" expressions along the main 4.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but they aren't typically described that way.

[@xiaomaozen]

Thanks for this brand-new (to me) perspective! That _vitakka and vicāra_ can't be understood as _thinking and pondering_ if one assumes 5 jhānas - that's quite interesting! As a practitioner it's always been clear to me that initial and sustained application are two different "mental activities", but I've never thought about a "jhāna 1.5" between the first and second one - so to speak. 😊🙏

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, it's an interesting bit of history I think!

[@huberthorsky611]

Thanks for an interesting video :) In the tradition of the group I meditate in, Bodhi (theravada), we have 4 jhanas, and about the vitakka and vichara - our teachers say, that vitakka is to just point something out (breathe in, breathe out, mind is off etc.), while vichara is more like exploring the basis of what is happening.

[@DougsDharma]

Interesting interpretation of vicāra, thanks!

[@stormyphillips]

Great video Mr. Smith. Love all the effort and time you put into these videos. I was wondering if you would consider doing a video (or series of videos) on the Satipatthana Sutta. I know you have done videos on Mindfulness of body, feelings, and the mind. And also went over these topics in your videos on Mindfulness of Breathing. But, I thought it might be interesting to go over the history of this very influential text.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, good suggestion Stormy. I did a video on that topic awhile back, let me know if you think there's more to say. (Well, there's always more to say!) kzbin.info/www/bejne/jn7Xk4mFgJlgaZI

[@AndyMossMetta]

What is sometimes called 'Access Concentration' (or half jnana) may be at the root of the confusion. It is a stage in the spectrum continuum of self absorption that is sufficiently qualitively different to full first jnana to merit being given a conceptual name.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, that's another potential confusion, though I'm not sure "access concentration" is ever really mentioned or defined in the early texts.

[@user-sl6gn1ss8p]

I realize this might not mean much specially since this is a translation, but I read the passage at 4:40 as three "ways" (the three "combinations" of placing and connecting the mind or not), and, for each of these, having or not having each "effect". I think because placing and connecting seem to be fit a different "group" than rapture, pleasure and equanimity, (which also fit a group between themselves).

[@6xo245]

Hey Doug, I hope you are well. Could you do a video on what is the dharmakaya?

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks, 6xo! I hope you’re doing well, too. I discuss dhammakaya/dharmakaya a little in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZqVpJdsatFsa9E

[@everetthalfman3186]

Your videos great! Thank you for the great content. I have a question regarding the books I see laid behind you on the shelf--are those the Pali Canon? Have you read all of them?

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, some of them are translations of the Pāli Canon. I've read much of it, but not every page. 😄

[@user-ig8pd9qn5h]

It was since when you started producing this Jhana-Series that I never missed any of your new videos (compared to occasionally watching videos before). It is really inspiring to learn these different perspectives and I am constantly watching for new dhamma content! Now, watching this video, I was thinking: Splitting the first out of four Jhanas into two, what happens to the simile with the soap ball being kneaded? I had the following idea and wish to share it: The vitakka phase is kneading the soap ball while adding new water from time to time, the vicare phase is just kneading after there is already enough water added. 🙂

[@DougsDharma]

😄 it could be!

[@fgtherstywserjt5940]

Great video! I'm still pretty new to Buddhism, but I had some thoughts about the differences between MN 128.31 and DN 33; that MN 128.31 is a possible clarification or elaboration as, at least to me, the four additions in MN 128.31 seem different in nature. My thought is that the first three are active processes, and the latter four characteristics of or mind states that arise during the jhanas. Perhaps the presence or lack or combination of the latter four signifies progression through the jhanas.

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks much! 🙏

[@user-ic4ce8xb5v]

🙏

[@DougsDharma]

🙏

[@tomtillman]

Are the other planes of existence, such as the Astral, Mental, and causal planes acknowledged or addressed in the Pali Canon? thanks. 🙏

[@DougsDharma]

I'm not sure, it depends what one means by them. See my video on early Buddhist cosmology and decide what you think: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHbagqmim7KInJo

[@Wade7715]

Is it possible to see just three jhanas (or types of meditation) in this passage: 1) placing the mind on a specific object and sustaining attention on that object; 2) no specific object but a diffuse awareness of data from the 5 senses or mind activity; and 3) no specific object or diffuse awareness of phenomena but simply awareness of pure awareness regardless of whether rapture arises, doesn’t arise, pleasure arises or calm peacefulness arises? Just wondering if later punctuation has lead to 3 things looking like more than 3?

[@DougsDharma]

Well, I don't really think the passage can be read that way.

[@robloda07]

Probably there is another issue... there are two different jhana systems, as stated by R. Shankman in his books, and this causes a lot of confusion among beginner practitioners… at least for me ☹ . E.g., monks like Buddhdasa, Pa-Auk Sayadaw and Ajahn Brahm teach jhana using the nimitta and other teachers, like Brasington and Shankman (probably also Thanissaro Bhikkhu), teach jhana without help/necessity of the nimitta. My understanding is that the first ones require a deeper level of concentration, compared to the second ones, but the seconds are the ones taught by the Buddha, the ones closest to the experiences described in the suttas. What do you think Doug?

[@DougsDharma]

I did a video on this general topic awhile back: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHXSpZeLfrRrn68

[@timon3370]

Is Siddhartha Gautama considered one of the five celestial buddhas?

[@DougsDharma]

I'm not sure, that's not a teaching one finds in the early tradition.

[@diansc7322]

Nope, the five celestial Buddha's are Amitabha, Akshohya, Vajrasatva, Amogasiddhi and Vairocana. None of these is Shakyamuni

[@smlanka4u]

Abhidhamma teachings are the best scientific teachings in Buddhism. Sadly some people ignore Abhidhamma a lot saying that it was a later development. There are fundamental immaterial (quantum) fields in the universe that made 52 mental factors. And Abhidhamma mentions about 28 matterial (Rupa) forms too. If some people think some other people could explain about the quantum nature of the universe like that better than Buddha, why they can't accept that the Buddha could do it too. I don't know why some people don't like to accept a science like modern quantum physics. Maybe they don't trust that teaching. But according to quantum physics, there are 9 unique matter particles with 19 anomalies in the standard model of particles. So perhaps those 19 anomalies are 19 hidden particles in the 28 material forms. I think we can trust the Tripitaka more than ideas of some people.

[@logangreen759]

Sir can you please tell me that how does rebirth takes place in Buddhism

[@smlanka4u]

​@@logangreen759, Abhidhamma explain about the process of Mental factors, Many worlds, Jhana, Rebirth, the status of mind etc. The mind moments continue as 3 moments. And a stream of mind (Pali: Chitta Vithi) has maximum 17 mind moments. And during that process the mind continues as many rebirths every 3 moments, and also every 17 moments conditionally. The normal death is a conditional death, and it can continues to the next 17 moments of the conditioned life until the mind moment stop continuing as a result of that 17 conditioned moments. I need to learn Abhidhamma more to explain it to someone with confidence. I started to study Abhidhamma recently. But if we know Abhidhamma well we can explain the Sutta teachings of the Buddha easily without misunderstandings and struggles.

[@logangreen759]

@@smlanka4u the mind which moves during rebirth is some form of soul or not ?? And if the aggregates get destroyed during death then how can mind exist ??

[@smlanka4u]

​@@logangreen759, The mind is not a permanent soul, but it is a process like a soul that continues with the five aggregates of clinging. There are no fixed five aggregates in the mind to be destroyed. It is a stream of continuation of the mind between Matter (Rupa) and Nama (immaterial) fields. The mind doesn't need to carry Matter or Nama with it to make another birth. The Buddha said that it takes only a very small amount of time (the time it takes for a strong person to make his hand straight) to move to another body. So perhaps, after the death a normal mind travels less than the speed of light to be attached to another body. But if the mind is based on quantum processes, then the mind can get information about the previous birth using the very fast quantum interactions like quantum entanglements, quantum tunnelling, etc. According to Abhidhamma, there is a Rupa (particle) called Jivithaidriya (Life Faculty) which is almost similar to the Higgs particles in quantum physics. So if the mind is based on the Higgs fields that give mass to elementary particles, then the mind can get or receive mass (Rupa) from it to make the Rupa (matter) aggregate, even if the mind is traveling to any other location to find a body. So the Rupa (Matter) density in the space can help the mind to travel causing to continue the five aggregates. Maybe, if we can disconnect our mind moment from the mass/matter (Rupa), then we would not have a rebirth or we would have a rebirth in an immaterial world. However, Abhidhamma explains about a quantum process between a set elements. If we can understand those explanations clearly, then we can understand the logical science of the rebirth too. I'm still a learning Abhidhamma as a beginner. It's difficult for me to explain more about that.

[@logangreen759]

@@smlanka4u if mind travels after death then does that mean that it is considered as a type of 'self' ?? But self doesn't exist in Buddhism ...

[@NullStaticVoid]

I'm more of the opinion that 4 jhanas is more likely. It's just very typical that almost everything in Buddhism settles on even numbers. 5 of anything is going to make me wonder on it's authenticity.

[@michaelhanford8139]

Doug, you're a fool. Obviously, there are precisely 6.855 jhanas. 😄 Thank you for your very good work🙏

[@DougsDharma]

😁 🙏