The Strange Case of the Formless Meditations in Early Buddhism

[@DougsDharma]

🧡 If you find benefit in my videos, consider supporting the channel by joining us on Patreon and get fun extras like exclusive videos, ad-free audio-only versions, and extensive show notes: www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma 🙂 📙 You can find my new book here: books2read.com/buddhisthandbook

[@Avida-l7s-instrumental]

It’s hard to explain for me but this channel is like a little cosy safe space .

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@maryhoward756]

I am a simple soul. I love kindness to all creatures. I know enlightenment is the ultimate, but how we live our lives now is so important. I realise I am not probably not clever enough for your teachings, though I will persist with them. Regarding old age we are not our body, that's what I am telling myself. I am 68 years old. Thak you,and love to you all.

[@DougsDharma]

😊🙏 The teachings aren't mine, but the Buddha's. That said, there is a lot of complexity here that's unnecessary for basic practice. Meditate and act with kindness as best you can. That's a great start.

[@maryhoward756]

@@DougsDharma I realise these teachings are Buddhas and not yours, but thank you for Replying.I do understand a certain amount I have read about Buddhism. Thank you for replying.

[@nsbd90now]

It is so interesting and so cool you know of and are able to talk about "earliest texts" and then historical developments on these topics. Kind of like a "search for the historical Buddha" type of thing. I'm always kind of floored how phenomenological Buddha and his students were... i.e. not so much coming up with metaphysical theories, but rather descriptions of the actual human experience of reality.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes it was kind of a pragmatic psychology-type philosophy. 😄

[@freetibet1000]

Thank you Doug for a very illuminating discussion on the very important topic of formless absorption. There are many forms of practices within buddhism that utilize the formless type of absorptions. However, the key point is (as always) if it is able to activate the rise of wisdom experience, or not. Students are being warned about the pleasures of remaining in any of the four stages of formless absorptions without the wisdom component being present. I have many times heard descriptions from my teachers on how these four formless absorptions are linked to the highest levels of the formless god realms, still dwelling well within samsara. These states are described as pleasurable and can last for extremely long periods but when karma runs out they will fall right back into the lower realms of samsara and suffer tremendously for it. The key reason being the attachment to the absorption itself without the wisdom aspect being “activated”. There’s no doubt that these states are progressively more and more profound but if they fail to give rise to wisdom they provide the cause for remaining in samsara never the less. On the question on if wisdom can arise within the two most subtle forms of absorptions I can only speculate that for a being that have already attained liberation through the activation of wisdom entering into any of these two states can most likely be accompanied by the wisdom already active in that mind. So, if the Buddha himself went into any of the two most subtle forms of formless absorptions would most certainly do that with all the wisdom that had already been activated (through other types of practices such as Jnana meditation) since buddhahood is an irreversible attainment. But for a person not yet in that position theses states are often warned about because they can become a tremendous trap, like being dragged into a “backwater” from whence it’s hard to emerge again due to their pleasurable qualities and (potentially) lack of wisdom. They can become a source for a very prolonged stay in samsara as a consequence. In fact, there are three distinct experiences that arise as a consequence of meditative absorption that can become a hindrance if we develop clinging to them; pleasurable absorption, clarity and emptiness are all very good signs of development but can become an obstacle if we develop clinging to them. All what you have said on this topic corresponds very well with what I have been told by my teachers. Thank you for making it so readily available for the practice community. 🙏 Namaste

[@DougsDharma]

My pleasure! 🙏

[@leorivers7759]

When, fter 20 years with a Mahayana group. I turned around in my mind and decided for myself that the Buddhism of the early Buddhist culture between his death and Ashoka was "Buddhism", I return to my original take on the religion and that was we followed in his footsteps until we stood where he was standing as the Buddha and that there was no difference between the Buddha and a disciple that became enlightened. Mahayana can be described as an ever ongoing addition of multiple gradations of enlightenment and the endless talk that a company that. In this discussion of the formless and cessation we returned to the gradations of enlightenment. But I would like to go all the way back to a lower level and discuss the fact that we need to talk about overcoming the hindrances before we have left the gravitational field of all that is egotistical enough to even discern what should be the next stages and contained in them, even the four form realms. After all didn't you conclude with saying you have to go to someone who's seen something to discuss it?

[@DougsDharma]

Right, this can all seem very obscure, and the best route is just to work at the hindrances. 🙏

[@xiaomaozen]

Thanks for another splendid video Doug! 🙏 My humble point of view is that the _formless attainments_ are neither necessary nor sufficient (without wisdom/insight), but they can be very helpful... 🧘‍♂️😊

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I'd agree with that. But also, with wisdom/insight they can prove crucial.

[@punkaakee]

Holy crap. I feel like I can attain enlightenment just based on your explanation here tonight. Brilliant! I’ll be checking out your Patreon.

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks, Pam! 🙏

[@loveudon6972]

Excellent video Dr.Doug. You have a new subscriber!!!

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks and welcome!

[@tanned06]

Thanks for pointing out certain unresolved area by scholars regarding some deep samādhi practice in Buddhism, Dough. Just to give my comments coming from the Burmese lineage which teaches Jhānas and formless attainments and ways to discern the conditionality of these attainments by direct analytical insight. "Having seen with wisdom" is the key word. That is to see the volitional formation of all these sublime attainments by analytical knowledge of nāma (mentality) in which one is able to witness the three universal characteristics (anicca, dukkha, and anatta) plus the dependently construction of these states immediately upon emerging from the attainments. The mental formations (e.g., jhāna factors) constituting neither perception nor non-perception have been too subtle to be distinguishable. And the cessation attainment is basically occurring in the suspension of consciousness, there is no basis one can directly discern its conditioning mental factors. For those who can attain this nirodha samapatti (tradition says it can only be attained by those who have perfected the training of concentration - ānagamī and arahat), they would have known what Nirvana is, since the sign of the unconditioned (nirvāna) occurs immediately before the mind entering and immediately after exiting this attainment - there is at least one sutta discusses this. Signless meditation (animitta cetosamādhi) is an advanced insight (vipassanā) practice through contemplating the characteristic of impermanence (anicca) of these fleeting mental factors which condition the attainments - check out the three liberation gateways in Anguttara-nikāya: signless samādhi through contemplating anicca, voidness through anatta, and desireless through dukkha.

[@DougsDharma]

Right, yes this sounds reasonable. Thanks, Hendrick.

[@geoffh2560]

Thanks for the video Doug. I can't claim to understand all of your message, but appreciate your genuine intentions.

[@DougsDharma]

No worries Geoff, it can be a bit confusing!

[@patrickgoldsmith4407]

This has been enlightening already! Thank you. Has anyone here visited The Tao Bums site?

[@DougsDharma]

My pleasure!

[@moonmissy]

I think the controversy about the formless states goes back to the debate of Samadhi (Jhanas) vs. Vipassana. It's like blind men feeling an elephant when it comes to the intellectual discussion over this because it needs to be experienced and tested by meditators, not scholars. The Jhanas and Arupas are not something the Buddha found, but learned from other people and utilized in his own process. I find the use of the Jhanas is that you can observe the process of mind settling and arising coming in and out of these Jhanas, especially the Arupas. I'm not a scholar but in my 31 years of meditation experience is that these states are useful to calm the mind and use it to observe clearly the arising of Sankhara which starts everything, the process of cognizing and then ultimately self. Attaining these formless states themselves or even 9th Jhana (Nirodha) is not liberation. Without the use of Vipassana to gain insight from experiencing these states, they're pretty much useless. Using them to recognize the gradual falling away of the five aggregates as you move up the formless states to see how the self and reality are constructed is the real gift. The formless states in themselves are impermanent, so they're nothing special but something to be used as a tool to recognize the non-self in all experiences. The problem with meditators is that they get attached to these states, see them as a badge of honour or status and outside of them, do not carefully use Vipassana in everyday life to deal with the arising of three poisons and not get attached to it. I have many students who use these states as a drug to run away from the stress and strain of life instead of dealing with them. Like an hour vacation on the cushion! That's not what it is intended for. The states are to be reviewed upon going in and out of them to experience the impermanence of mind and the process of construction of the self. Then work to not be fooled by it again at all times when you're off the cushion. The Arupas are very difficult to learn and master, it takes years and years of dedication and practice and the right teacher, this is the reason why the form Jhanas are discussed more often because it's easier for people to practice to experience them. It took me 17 years of practice to start touching the formless states and get into them. That's after going through a lot of teachers and methods to realizing that a great many meditation teachers don't know them and have no idea how to work with them. These formless states are indispensable for reviewing and gaining insight into the construction of the self by the five aggregates. But the attainment of it by itself on the cushion is useless. If the teachers don't know how to work to eliminate or transform the three poisons as they arise off the cushion, these meditation states are pretty much useless off the cushion other than a badge of status the self takes pride in. Another problem when Buddhist texts talk about the Jhanas and Arupas is that they are not seen in conjunction with Vipassana and not seen as something that can be done off the cushion. My teachers don't really discriminate between Samatha and Vipassana, because for them, both are essential and you can do both at the same time. In my experience and some of my students' experiences, you can experience these formless states off the cushion if you use Vipassana correctly to observe the rising and falling of sankhara and eventually prevent the rising of sankhara with Vipassana. But the highest you can go is neither perception nor non-perception because after that consciousness is lost, you can't function in the world without consciousness. You can barely function with neither perception nor non-perception. So the ideal experience to be in the world walking around and still experience a lot of stillness/peace is the non-dual one in the 7th where you can still function in the world with it. It requires that Sankhara doesn't rise, which is difficult to do off the cushion in everyday life but can be done. But then this too is impermanence so you can't reside in it forever outside of the cushion, Sankhara always rises again. I don't know of anyone who can reside in a non-duality state forever. I think meditators need to approach this issue with an open mind and willingness to experiment not assume anything. If we get a bunch of advanced meditators together and ask them to note down what they observed going in and out of these states, we would have better data to gather on this phenomenon rather than guessing it or being dogmatic about it. I've been telling my students to do get a notebook and write down their observations of what happens during meditation right after coming out of it. It really helps to find the common ground on how these states are entered into and experienced. Unfortunately, the sample size is much too small because it's hard to get a bunch of advanced meditators together, much less convince them to devote their time to write down their observations immediately after meditation to notice the patterns. Maybe with enough funding, connections and access to more people who have 20,000+ hours of meditation to get a decent sample size, science can figure this out.

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks for your thoughts, L V.

[@josetgomez]

Good however, after the dimension of neither perception and not perception, the mind through mindfulness of the not exiting self independent of the impermanent nature of consciousness, comes the true cessation of the path of seeing that is Nirvana. Moreover is in this state of perfect peace free of the conditioned 5 aggregates, the awakening mind take place and from there on our ordinary mind is gone. That is what in Mahāyāna is called the awakening mind still expanding through the path of meditation to the end of the path of no more learning.

[@myberney]

May I suggest that there is another way to view your translation in that it is wisdom that points out these formless states are useless not the formula states themselves. it is the wisdom, Janna, that understands the uselessness of the formless states.

[@DougsDharma]

🙏

In Zen, samhadi, or blissful meditation, is sometimes called the crystal cave. It is both a state of mind considered to be a stage of meditation that can lead to enlightenment (satori,) and a potential trap if one becomes attached to it. I haven't seen it suggested in Zen that samhadi is a "necessary" stage on the way to enlightenment. This may explain the apparent dichotomy in the early suttas. See the book, "The Three Pillars of Zen.

[@DougsDharma]

Interesting, I'd assume that in Zen even if strictly speaking meditation isn't "necessary", it's at least nearly so for most of us.

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

Great title for a detective novel ! ;)

[@DougsDharma]

😄😄Yes, isn't it?

[@jasonc8910]

Thank you.

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@PavaniGanga]

Today, coincidentally, just before watching this video on the formless mediations, I happened to be in the process of re-reading the delightful (though not completely intelligible to me) Vimalakirti Nirdesha Sutra. Because I don’t know the original Pali or Sanskrit terms, I can’t rule out a comparison of apples and oranges. Is this, or is this not, a representation of the wisdom to be derived in the “aftermath debriefing” of the formless dhyana of neither perception nor non-perception? The eponymous hero of the sutra declares (Ch.5, Robert Thurmond’s translation): As for these living beings… one has only to teach them… to realize the basis from which sicknesses arise. What is this basis? It is object-perception. Insofar as apparent objects are perceived, they are the basis of sickness. What things are perceived as objects? The three realms of existence are perceived as objects. What is the thorough understanding of the basic, apparent object? It is its non-perception, as no objects exist ultimately. What is non-perception? The internal subject and the external object are not perceived dualistically. Therefore, it is called non-perception. Okay, since this Vimalakirti speaking: Perhaps the bottom line is liberation from the obligation of particular views, which enables the striking adaptability of a bodhisattva in different situations.

[@DougsDharma]

Well this sounds to me like a teaching in non-dualism rather than a deep state of formless meditation, though the two have parallels to some degree of course.

[@wint7031]

According to Early Buddhism, there are two paths for meditation. [1] Jhanna ( form or formless) meditation. Form stages : 1st jhanna, 2nd jhanna, 3rd jhanna, 4th jhanna Formless stages : 5th(Akasanancayata jhanna), 6th(vinnanancayatana jhanna), 7th(Akinacannayatajhanna), 8th(Nevasanna-nasannayata jhanna =neiher-preception-nor-non-prection) Needless to say, we have to practic up 1st jhanna to 8th jhanna step by step, if we want to. Both Form (Rupavacara) and Formless (Arupavacara Jhanna) meditation don't lead to Nirvana due to without having seen wisdom. However, One can skillfully keep in practice Jhanna, he can get supernormal POWER. Alaya Kalama and Udaka Ramaputa attain 7th and 8th level of jhannas. Without wisdom, they don't see Nivana. Therefore, Buddha says the two gentlemen loss of WISDOM. According to "Sangitisutta", Sariputta teaches the monks that "this is ninth lost opportunity for wisdom or spirutual practice including form and formless meditations. Also, form or formless scessations are lost opportunity for wisdom practice. Therefore, Buddha said to Sariputta, "Good, good, Sariputa! It's good that you've taught this exposition of the reciting in concert." [2] Wisdom (vipassana) meditation. Only vipassana ( noble eight fold pah) mditation leads to Nivana. Also, the four noble truths and dependent of origination is important. Sariputta and Moggallana attain 1st wisdom (enlightened) after hearing the gist of four noble truth (cause and effect) by Ven. Athazi. Later, they keep up both JHANNAS and insight WISDOM meditaion. According to "Malunkyaputta" and "Bahiyasutta", Buddha teaches them only "vipassana mediation" for wisdon. Also, Buddha states his first sarmon only the four noble truths for wisdom. [3] There is third way that we can practice up Janna and Vipassana meditaion at the within a moment. For example, after you get first wisdom, you can keep up 1st janna, or after you get 1st jannas, you keep going for vipassana and so on ...

[@josetgomez]

The situation of how one to obtain Nirvana is well stables on the perfection wisdom sutra, where there is a display from the wisdom mind of the Buddha through his speech emanation represented by the bodhisattva of compassion to Sariputta mindfulness after the last Jhanas or form-less has being transcendent.

[@Giantcrabz]

Doug how do these methods of attaining Nirvana mesh with the Zen focus on sudden enlightenment? They seem like completely different paths almost

[@DougsDharma]

Great question, I did a video that touches on some of that awhile back: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmHXemSQn858h5Y

[@osanda2313]

Mr. Doug, please explain what this signless concentration of mind is? Is it a separate formless attainment, and how does that differ from the jhanas? Thank you 🙏

[@DougsDharma]

I discussed it a bit in my video on the practice of emptiness: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jpOrlKSLo7x1osU

[@oldstudent2587]

By "seen with wisdom" do you mean with prajna? If so, this description that the technique leads to nirvana if "seen with wisdom" is very close to the Mahayana/Vajrayana belief that enlightenment results from the union of skillful means (upaya) with wisdom (prajna).

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I believe the word used would be "pañña", which is the Pāli form of prajña.

[@TheWayOfRespectAndKindness]

Achievements are the vice of religiosity. There’s nothing to achieve or attain. There’s just a “way”.

[@DougsDharma]

It depends how you look at it. In the early texts, achievements were foregrounded. In some later practice styles people realized that talking of “achievement” made achieving the thing all the more difficult, so that language was discarded. But there is still work to be done, a way to walk along.

[@soezone208]

It is said that It is extremely hard to practice vipassana/insight meditation with formless meditations. (i can't refer to where exactly he said, it is like a kind of rumor in the meditation cycle in Burma that Ladi Sayadaw had to deconstruct/abandon 4 formless meditations so he could practice vipassana). Pa Auk Sayadaw also wrote many books on deep states of meditation and how to achieve enlightenment through them. His books were banned by the mainstream Theravada in Myanmar. It is assumed that only Buddha and his close disciplines were able to do so, especially on mind matters. I guess up to this day, Jhanas both Rupa and arupa are big controversial.

[@moonmissy]

As a history student, anything "mainstream" from any religion is pretty much the masses trying to suppress esoteric teachings. I happened to agree with Pak Auk Sayadaw, you can use formless mediation with Vipassana to achieve liberation insights through them from my personal experience. It's very difficult but not impossible for the ones who have pure aspiration and dedication to the path willing to be free of all conceptions or dogmas. Not everyone's path towards enlightenment is the same, so maybe Ladi Sayadaw is correct too, but maybe just for himself.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes I think the formless meditations are considered very subtle so hard to distinguish and perceive correctly, particularly the last one.

[@User-kjxklyntrw]

Can u make video about the tanha location in paticcasamudpadasequence..

[@DougsDharma]

I have a playlist on dependent origination where I get into some of that: kzbin.info/aero/PL0akoU_OszRjcEvO6Gt2MSKF-u7Y8XaNc

[@evaschu]

@@DougsDharma

[@goldielion9998]

☯️

[@默-c1r]

🙏

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@7cTube]

Could it be Sāriputta while fanning entered the deep states?

[@DougsDharma]

Not likely, one isn't able to do anything while in those states.

[@MrDesoto33]

There is an ancient teaching .."One who practices the headstand 3 hours a day will surely attain enlightenment ". There is ancient artwork depicting the Buddha using a sideways tree branch as a headstand prop. Enlightenment has levels and this ancient teaching would be better staring directly..."One who practices the headstand 3 hours a day will surely experience OM ". In the resurrection as angels meditation can bring us to the formless thundering OM but for humans the headstand technique mechanically brings the human form to OM. Thundering OM as in Peter, James and John nicknamed "the sons of thunder " after completing this lesson. Here in the physical body/world this is the highest teaching there is as it brings us to the highest state of consciousness there is with meditation serving as a type of preparation for going unto OM. Working as described in a book titled "Tales of power" in the chapters cleaning and ordering the island of the tonal. It's swept clean so that there's nothing to offer resistance or cling to (worldly detachment) and so this is the way one enters into OM. It seems they stole Buddhas thunder...OM as with Chris "pick up your cross daily and follow me" (the cross as a headstand prop) as with the ANKH of Moses. Egotistical and greed ,competitiveness etc have turned this ancient teaching into a business secret with wealthy teachers teaching to the wealthy and so we know how this goes...F you when it comes to money which has caused a very serious devolution of the human species..."believing in God vs knowing God directly. The God outside of our bubble of perception/island of the human form is what I'm referring to (Tao; voice of many waters; I heard a noise like thunder daying..."; In the beginning was OM /in the beginning was the Word; YHWH/ALLAH etc) . The pineal gland of an ordinary person who doesn't practice this is 5 times smaller than one who does and so we see the humans cut off from higher states of conciousness and enlightened awareness as the pineal gland is associated with these. The heartbeat into the crown chakra is how progress is known being totally absent then very pronounced until one day the heartbeat felt in the brain slowly widens to about the size of a Jewish Yamika then changes from a beating vibration into a steady frequency and after an excruciating rush of pleasure throughout every nerve one enters into OM. You said once the Buddha didn't like secrets and Christ said "freely you have received freely give". When money enters in then this ancient teaching turns into a business secret and the entire human race suffers much. "Christ turning over the money changers and saying "you shall not turn my Fathers house into a house of merchandise "