How many Pokemon beat Falkner without Optional Battles? - Episode 10: Seel-Onix, Pinco-Steelix

Minimum Battles is the ultimate challenge. But how many Pokemon can beat the first Gym of Gen 2 on Minimum Battles?
On my main channel ‪@RBYPokemonChallenges‬ , I have already completed this challenge with all 151 Pokemon on Gen 1, but Gen 2 presents a massively different challenge - sleep and Wrap were nerfed, there's no Gen 1 miss (1/256 glitch), and all the trainers have better AI. But Minimum Battles might just be possible with some effort and ingenuity.
Today's challengers:
Seel, Dewgong,
Grimer, Muk,
Shellder, Cloyster,
Gastly, Haunter, Gengar,
Onix,
Pineco, Forretress,
Dunsparce,
Gligar,
Steelix

[@ShadyScienceFeline]

Another pokétuber (I think it’s Scott’s Thoughts?) tends to say Gligar is sad whenever some more or less unlikely pokémon can learn Mud-Slap, because Gligar doesn’t learn it - nor either of the other two Ground-type TMs, nor any other Ground move. Its only STAB is Wing Attack, which it only gets as an egg move. At least in gen 3, they allowed it to learn Aerial Ace, Dig, and Earthquake from TMs, but it didn’t get a STAB move by level-up until gen 5, where it learns Acrobatics. And that was it until BDSP, where Mud-Slap and Earthquake were finally added to its level-up set. And subsequently removed again in Scarlet and Violet, where its only level-up STAB is once again Acrobatics. In their place it now learns … Poison Tail and Crabhammer? The TM selection is good at least.

[@bitterzombie]

Yeah the most insulting thing about gligar not getting mudslap is that it everything else learns it, it would actually make sense for gligar to learn, AND its not like gligar has any better options. It was screwed by its movepool, incredible that it was so bad in its original game, but gliscor is now one of the most competitive viable pokemon out there

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I suppose you could give it Hidden Power Flying or Hidden Power Ground for STAB in Gen 2, but that's about it. Sometimes early game TM and level up learnsets are just comical

[@alexrobinet7576]

No mudslap gligar is a great meme.

[@myhandleiswhat]

​@@GSCPokemonChallenges Bulbapedia says: "Although Gligar could not learn Earthquake by TM in Generation II, a Gligar that knew Earthquake was a reward in Pokémon Stadium 2 for beating the rival in Round 2." which checks out based on the sets Smogon has for it in Gen 2. I'm not sure why Gamefreak made that decision... but they certainly did. Up until Gen 4 a lot of Pokemon just had awful learn sets.

[@TheAnalyticalEngine]

Dunspace with rage - "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger!"

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

He embodies that sentiment perfectly

[@RichardBucher2077]

I don't see anyone mentioning it but Forretres has selfdestruct so getting to struggle is impossible anyway , this is one of my favorite series right now , thank you for the upload

[@RobBomford]

Good spot

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I realized that after the fact, but yeah Struggle Strats wouldn't be possible because even if we caught a second Pokemon, there are no Revives in this section

[@Muzgrob]

Its been too long. Yay. More Faulkner minimum battles!

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Absolutely. This section is almost finished. I need to do the Unown episode and the retries section at the end.

[@d.a.d.-ohgosh]

Teo. The Legend we needed. Also here's a fencing emoji. 🤺

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

You are the legendary commenter, Kyle!

[@d.a.d.-ohgosh]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges just everyday fella. I do what I can.

[@RichardBucher2077]

Btw the dunsparce was too funny , it completely destroyed the whole gym

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Completely OP with Rage. I'm not sure what exactly Dunsparce is, but we know he is a Rage-type

[@raptors11111]

Ahhh awesome so glad to see this video! I was starting to worry it had been forgotten! Cant wait till you get to part 2, i have a feeling Bugsy is gonna knock out a ton of the ones that got super lucky vs Falkner

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I shall never forget 😂 Just got a little sidetracked with the 1k subs celebrations and some other big projects on RBY Pokemon Challenges. Planning to finish Falkner on December, starting the New Year with Bugsy!

[@raptors11111]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges thats awesome news man, love the work you do, youve definitely found a cool niche doing minumum battles and other wild challenges instead of just speedruns. Congrats on the 1k followers too btw, up over 1.5k even now

[@alexrobinet7576]

Ooh mudslap can't wait to teach that to my gligar...

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

😂

[@johncalabro8710]

Only learns a ground (other than sand attack) in gen 2 through Pokemon Stadium 2. It is not until gen 3 through TMs that it can learn a ground moves dig and earthquake. It doesn't learn Mud-Slap until Generation 8 (Not joking)

[@philipmurphy2]

GSC Pokémon Challenges, This should be great

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Thank you, Philip!

[@stevepierce227]

I have been working on creating a run/tier list point system similar to how you structure your minimum battles in Yellow. I call it a "minimalist run". Before I get to the points and structure I want to say this would all be possible on a legit copy of Crystal given you have a copy of Gold/Silver (with ACE setup) and means to trade. Start off by nicknaming your starter for the pokemon you will be doing and losing to the rival and catching a sentret (best HM 1st route mon) so you can trade. Trade your starter and use ACE to change the species and moves to the level 5 moveset. When you trade it back, make sure it is holding a rare candy. The game is played on minimum battles and catching electrodes/red gyrados, but using the simple cloning glitch on a pokemon holding that spare rare candy, you can use it cloned candies when you are stuck in a section until you have what you need to progress. The goal is to not use TMs/HMs or use as little as possible. Also there would be 3 runs for this kind of structure: 0DVs, 15DVs, and a run where DVs are manipulated for Hidden Power and egg moves are allowed. I think those 3 kinds of runs would be interesting to compare to see how much stats/move diversity affects the Pokemon's performance. I have made a system of penalty points to use to create a tier list with the following values: 1 per reset (max 10 resets per fight, 20 for elite 4 before using TMs/rare candies) 10 per TM/HM 50 per universal TM (Attract, Curse, Double Team, Frustration, Hidden Power [in 0DV/15DV runs] Protect, Rest, Return, Sleep Talk, Snore, Toxic) Rare candy points=level after candy (only counted apart from normal rare candies) (eg. Using a candy to reach level 10 is 10 points, ans using a candy to reach level 95 is 95 points) 20 per egg move [hidden power/egg move runs only] I haven't actually started a run like this to test it, and the point system probably would need adjusting. I also think rare candies are better than optional battles for additional levels, because it keeps the stat exp completely consistent in each of the runs. The only difference in stat exp you would have would be depending on which starter you gave the rival, and when comparing one species in the different runs it would always have the same stat exp. Anyway I wondered if this seemed like a good way to structure these kinds of challenges.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

That sounds like a very interesting setup. I especially like the idea of doing 3 runs, with Max DVs, Min DVs, and DVs for a Hidden Power

[@johncalabro8710]

Nice you see you back

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Cheers, nice to be back with you John!

[@adventureoflinkmk2]

1:03:51 the legend of forretress: self destruct of time

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Seriously! I need to do a time bomb challenge in Gen 2 with Forretress as a team member

[@ToxicCross1]

We’re back 🥳😟🥳 and we got dunsparce in here too

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Dunsparce is here to win

[@acdcljb]

Do not stress over Struggle strats too much. It is coded in the game therefore it counts. I do believe that are no more than a couple of dozens who are bothered by it (and thousands do not mind at all). And the same thing should be true with the first rival fight. That battle is sometimes literally impossible to lose unless you hack in money for Pokeballs needed to skip your turns (or you could reset date on your console a couple of thousands times, waiting for berries to regrow) - Gastly line is a prime example of this inconvenience. Not worth the hassle. Even more for Gen I where a lot of Pokemon just cannot lose the first rival fight because you cannot do much with a single Potion and nothing else at that point in the game.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I think it's justifiable, just not purely minimum battles. I decided to make it a standard test when it's logical. As we progress, ai imagine it will be less and less necessary because any time we have a 50 power neutrally effective move, it's almost always better than Struggle anyhow

[@celticv]

Guess could say i give you seel of approval lol 😆 see we can make baf jokes too !!! x been such long wait but worth wait

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

😂. the Seel jokes are amazing!

[@celticv]

@GSCPokemonChallenges dewgong using his pp lol 😆 😂. These jokes write themselves. Your more than welcome use these jokes "D

[@mackowens7234]

Love these! Please upload as much as you can I want to see bugsy results!

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

For sure. Only a few more of these Falkner ones left

[@KyleLeeman]

Yessss the goat series is back 🙏

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Thank you!

[@ekwfan6]

Any plans to try out Crystal Legacy? Not necessarily for this challenge, but in the future. I played through it and enjoyed it immensely. It's the first time I've ever completed a Pokedex in my life!

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Could be interesting I have seen the name, but never played it

[@jonberg]

I think shellder was doable with 4 withdraws (gets Pidgeotto's gust down to 2 instead of 3 damage) and a few tackles (3 or 4) instead of struggling from the outset. It might have needed 1 crit but not 2.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I didn't mess with it here, but it's a fair idea. We manipulated Gengar:s PP like crazy to get the W, so makes sense here as well

[@Justan669]

Great series- how about with the failures, you attempt it after sprout tower? Flash isn't required, but it kind of is if its your first play through

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

For sure, that is likely what I will mess with when I do full game runs for these Pokemon.

[@brolsroyceyt2362]

So hyped 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

🔥🔥🔥

[@anonymously_yours]

as an IT guy who works with functional technology (i.e. not 20 year old msdos boxes) "dont update anything ever" kills me to hear XD please reboot your computer and run updates sometimes guys LOL

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I'm talking more specifically about small dev projects like Gamehook, where sometimes you get a stable build and then a subsequent update breaks EVERYTHING. Small devs just don't have the time or resources to test out or support all of their end users' use cases. So I would generally advise against updating small dev projects unncessarily lol

[@anonymously_yours]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges hahaha thats when they have a bleeding edge or nightly branch! but yeah i get ya...

[@redreoicy6698]

Since pidgey won't use mud slap against pineco it's worth testing imo. Although I'm certain it doesn't have any chance.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, for Pineco I was thinking it's the pure weakness to Gust that makes it not worth testing, but you're right, I wasn't thinking about that in the moment.

[@ourhandsaretied]

I don't understand the benefit of the move 'protect', apart from maybe for scouting. If it protected the user for two turns, maybe it would be useful

[@accapaellass]

It's mostly for scouting and stalling something like sand, leftovers, toxic or leech seed. It's much more useful in doubles format

[@SNWWRNNG]

In addition to what has been said, it's also strong against Lock-on and Mind Reader strategies, or charge-up moves like Fly, Dig, Sky Attack, Solar Beam...

[@RobBomford]

There are many situations where it is helpful as mentioned however you are right to say that the way it was used in this video made 0 difference to the outcome.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

The only other use, as I was using here, was to help run down the PP of a specific move. In theory we could get lucky and never fail, but otherwise we can at least run down the PP of a single move like Mud Slap.. It's a strat that makes mich more sense in a team run, rhough

[@dragonslayerz2220]

It's worth noting that Pineco is not a Steel Type. It doesn't get Mud slapped.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah I will give Pineco a chance in the follow-up. I expect Gust still destroys it

[@KyleLeeman]

Would love to hear more about you living in Japan. How did that come to be?

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Short version - followed a University sweetheart here, split up but fell in love with the country, then met my wife and settled for the longterm

[@johncalabro8710]

I am guessing but I think Krabby will be your only failure next week. Qwilfish and Exeggute will be hard fights.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah I think Exeggcute will need Hypnosis luck like crazy, then it's about Barrage ranges

[@PKMNwww411_MkII]

Thick Club doubles the attack of Cubone and Marowak. There is a bug that if power > 1024 it is mod by 1024. So 2064 mod 1024 = 32.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I remember the overflow glitch in Gen ² could destroy Marowak, so gotta be careful of those boosts.

[@johncalabro8710]

I would say mini battle should be easier for most pokemon in Crystal vs Blue until they make it to 1st Blue and then Red. Though the Elite four is hard it is about the same difficult as Yellow

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I think the Elite Four in Crystal might be harder, but at least on par

[@johncalabro8710]

Yes I think the Elite depends on your pokemon and movesets. For Fighting Types Yellow would be much harder and for some impossible without tms. Just by having to fight Lorelei Agatha, Lance and the Champ with low special (defense) for example the Hitmons with 35 special. While Psychic Mons are the opposite. In Gen 2 it is almost the reverse. Fighting type mons all get boost in their special defenses for example the hitmons go up the most out of fighting types to 110 special defense. While many Psychic have to deal with Dark Type trainer Karren, this alone would make gen 2 much harder for them. @@GSCPokemonChallenges

[@onestickybun6828]

I think there is a better strategy for shellder, 4 withdraw and 4 tackles on pidgey then struggle at pidgeotto

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, that seems to be a consensus. Worth a try!

[@alexrobinet7576]

It might be better to place the crit on the tackle for pidgey so we should check crit placement as well.

[@nautgamingnautgaming9949]

For your goldenrod split The 2 trainers TOP of underground tunnel are MANDATORY (you either fight them right away or after your 7th badge) 1 mandatory gym trainer THE REST ARENT mandatory

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Exactly, we get very little EXP before Whitney

[@redxraider0613]

If you didn't get into trouble with copyright, you should play some Rage Against The Machine when using rage

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Instant demonitization lol. But I want to just have it anyway 😂

[@MetalSandshrew]

4:51 I thought that was a Slugma trying to peek out from the upper right.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, when it's blocked out it kind of looked like that. The Gamehook update killed my overlay 😂

[@elk12429]

Late to the party but does 6x Withdraw on Shellder take Pidgeotto's attack down to 1 damage instead of 2? Also, even with the 4 withdraw -> tackle strat, with as close as it was, 1 crit plus a better damage roll might have gotten it done even without a second crit

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Naw, it bottoms out at 2 damage per hit. I will review, but it didn't look close enough in the moment

[@shaunduggan8605]

How did protect vs rollout go?

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Well, the idea is Protect to stop the Rollout from building up power. I haven't gotten there yet to test it I. practice though

[@nautgamingnautgaming9949]

Olivine gym 0 mandatory trainers I would HOLD OFF unless you have a stab surf user or in magmar or arcanine or a strong ground type THOSE ARE the early Jasmine ONLY PRYCE you have 14 or 15 MANDATORY trainers on the way there but none in the gym PRYCE besides ground types ALWAYS do BEFORE JASMINE

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

For sure. I think Pryce is *almost* always the easier fight

[@nautgamingnautgaming9949]

Ecruteak mandatory trainers Kimono girls n rival n 3 of the 4 gym trainers are mandatory Chuck mandatory trainers I think there are 4 before olivine light house theres another 3 in the lighthouse itself EVERY gym trainer is mandatory

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, the Chuck gym has the most mandatory trainers of all iirc

[@Kiddblackstar94]

Anyone know the music used during haunter run?

[@mista1903]

Harris Heller - Cake on your face

[@Kiddblackstar94]

​@mista1903 my bad. I meant the one after that

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I'll check

[@Kiddblackstar94]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges thanks, any luck?

[@mista1903]

Harris Heller - Roll me in stardust

[@alexrobinet7576]

Shelder coulda made it if you struggled after first pidgey and got 1 crit.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

For sure, I will retry it at the end of the series with Venusaur, Quilava, Tentacool, etc.

[@johncalabro8710]

Sad about Onix. I think the low attack on it (45 it really should be 75 or higher), combine with the ok move list (It needed rock throw earlier) means it could not take out the birds. It would not of lasted at the 3rd gym or rival fight.

[@johncalabro8710]

I looked up Geodude has 80 attack. Why does game freak hate Onix?

[@SNWWRNNG]

​​@@johncalabro8710Onix was designed as the first boss in an RPG, to teach the player about type effectiveness. It gives you plenty of turns to attack it, but if you keep spamming Normal moves like you did at the start you will lose.

[@johncalabro8710]

@@SNWWRNNG true but they update the stats of some pokemon in later games. Onix still has only 45 attack in generation 8.

[@SNWWRNNG]

@@johncalabro8710 I guess they're not ruling out the possibility of more Kanto revisits.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, Onix was always pretty bad as a solo Pokemon. It didn't have the HP stat to take advantage of it's high Defense, has too many weaknesses, and hits like a wet noodle. Perfect as an early game boss, which is why Brock is shaping up to be much harder than Falkner

[@GinyuForce157]

FINALLY

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Sorry for the delay!

[@ChickenTeller]

Pog

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

💯

[@stardf29]

SPOILER for quick recaps... ... ... Dewgong: Aurora Beam says hi. PASS Seel: Headbutt is a good non-STAB move to have, and Growl and one crit helps against Falkner. PASS Cloyster: See Dewgong. PASS Shellder: Withdraw and one crit lets Shellder Tackle past Spearow, but Falkner requires too much luck. FAIL Muk: Mud on the Muk calls for some accuracy luck, but it can get through with help from Harden. PASS Grimer: Who knew that mud would be so good at getting rid of sludge? Grimer just can't get the hits in. FAIL Gengar: Can't even damage all the Normal-types without Struggle, but Struggle with help from leftover Hypnosis does work. STRUGGLE Haunter: See Gengar. STRUGGLE Gastly: Alas, Gastly's Struggles aren't strong enough to get past Falkner. FAIL Steelix: Falkner's mudslinging is a real problem but Screech and Tackle give enough damage to get through with luck. PASS Onix: That legendarily bad Attack stat means it just can't do enough to get past all the mud. FAIL Forretress: Mud Slap from Pidgey and neutral Gust from Pidgeotto just does too much to Forretress. FAIL Pineco: Auto-FAIL Dunsparce: Warning: Rage sweep incoming. PASS Gligar: Use Sand-Attack to lower Accuracy, then poison with Poison Sting and let the birds slowly die. PASS Final Results: PASS: 7 STRUGGLE: 2 FAIL: 6

[@JLuk67]

Onix loses because onix sucks, its stats are all awful except for speed and defence. It exists to teach small children not to brute force tackle the whole game.

[@JLuk67]

It also exists to be the first big intimidating boss of an rpg it’s the equivalent of a big guy running into a wall and then showing off its big glowing weak spot for 10 seconds.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Agreed, I'm just surprised it can't beat the bird gym, especially since they put it in as an in-game trade in Violet specifically for this purpose

[@UMadJackass]

First?

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

🥇

[@Tiertanas]

*does 6 withdraws with tackle* "I don't think we can do it with struggle strats" *Only does 3 withdraws" ..... The point of a challenge is... to try..... Thanks for not trying......

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I cut out a lot of the attempts on these, because I test different numbers of Withdraws, etc. I'll double back to check it again, but the ranges didn't seem to work as far as I could tell.