How Most Hunters Incorrectly DEAL WITH MOUNTAIN WINDS

If you ask your average elk hunter about mountain winds, they will confidently tell you that they can estimate the wind within 5-10mph and that's all they need for the 300-500yards ranges they shoot at. But if you have observed hundreds of these hunters in the field, like I have, you know that 2/3rds or more of these shooters will miss or poorly hit game even in mild mountain winds.
In this video I go over why this is and some tips/tricks to improve your next shot up in the mountains for deer, elk, or black bear.
#Shooting #ElkHunting #MuleDeerHunting #LongRangeShooting #pursuitwithcliff
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[@zacktaylor3441]

As someone who shoots competitively out to 1000yds and beyond But keeps their hunting shots in the field to under 400yds I will say I see lots of people claim they can consistently make longrange shots on game...but miss or wound animals more than they will ever admit. All this longrange shooting at animals nonsense has really taken the sport out of sporthunting. If a 5-10mph error in a wind call is going to lead to a wounded animal you are shooting too far away.

[@CliffGray]

Thanks Zack. Great perspective

[@HoffnerPrecision]

As an elk hunting guide, I see the same thing ALL THE TIME. Very few people shoot as well as they say they do, and can’t make good decisions when they have a bull in the crosshairs. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard, “well the sun was in my eyes so I’m not sure if or where I hit it” from the same guy that claims to have hunted all over the world and has a $12,000 rifle and practiced out to a mile. I allow very few long range shots anymore unless it’s someone I absolutely know can make the shot.

[@jwint563]

Spot on Zack, spot on…

[@paultellier2147]

Always love your videos. Thank you, Cliff!

[@CliffGray]

Thanks Paul!

[@KC-7mm]

Thanks for the video you had some great perspectives on shooter/spotter and shot process. There’s also some great perspectives from the comment section shared knowledge is a great thing with healthy discussions.

[@CliffGray]

👍👍👍 thanks

[@MiddleOutdoorsman]

Great video. I think this was something I've always known, just never consciously thought about. I'd just SWAG an average on the wind, and go with it. There's a reason why I, and I'll wager lot of other guys too, end up shooting 4 or 5 rounds.

[@CliffGray]

I hear ya. Mountain winds have humbled a lot of folks, including me.

[@jeremyschonberger2333]

Love these videos. No on else gives you this perspective on shooting, especially on game animals. Personally I likely wouldnt shoot an animal past 400 yards, simply because the topography of the region of the NWT I'm in doesnt provide further, unless you're shooting across a small lake for something like moose or tundra for barrenground caribou. At those distances, for me, BC in a bullet isnt an issue. But considering the calibers I reload for it works, and is why I like the Barnes TTSX or the Accubond or even a Partition. Once a bear or moose takes off into the thick boreal bush, it's not fun to trek after so I want to hammer bone and organ. Keep posting videos like these, the practical knowledge you're providing is not something many consider in the field when it comes to breaking the shot. I put these videos in a playlist and send them to buddies before hunting season, to give reminders to consider as we dial in our equipment and fundamentals

[@highcountryprecision4639]

We can mitigate almost every error in a hunting shot but the wind is what demands the work. I build a high level hunting rifle, use the most accurate rangefinder and use the best ballistics tuned to extreme ranges, the amount of time I spend on a 1000 yard shot is seconds in setting up the rifle and dialing elevation, it's sometimes hours for the wind. I shoot all year in the places I hunt, during bow season we have our rifles with us and in the mid day we will shoot to spots on trails we've roll a rock up, I scout the best shooting position for how the elk move through an area, at the same time I'm trying to shoot one with a bow at feet. I hunt and develop an area the same way with a rifle as I do a bow, you can't be consistently killing elk in an area without understanding the wind in it, how the sound travels, how the elk move in it, ya you can stack up a lot in your favor first time in but unless you HUNT the area not just the animal you'll never maximize it. Love shooting and figuring out mountain winds, I don't do all that work so I know when NOT to shoot, NOT shooting always should be an option, no elk on earth is worth a bad shot.

[@scotmcalexander9314]

Glad to know im not the only one that uses my bald head for that. Always great advice. Thanks. And anyone even considering longer shots needs to practice in field conditions in the wind often.

[@CliffGray]

Ha! Bald heads are useful man!

[@aaronwilcox6417]

These are important considerations. I live in an narrow mountain valley in Idaho so i get to practice in the same type of terrain one gets to hunt in. Huge advantage. Another technique i know some people do to fight the wind variability group sizes is to step up to a large 338 cal cartridge and target the high shoulder shots on elk. The upshot is this opens up a much larger target area. If you miss by shooting over then no big deal but you have spine, shoulders, and then vitals making for a larger target area and the big 265gr up to the 300gr bullets simply smash elk sized game down well as this is basically anti-material performance level. The trouble is it makes for an heavy rifle but you really can operate it from across canyons and the effect on game is undeniable compared to smaller tackle. Not saying this is "the" method to go to but it is just one technique to deal with wind/group dispersion. Still one has to deal with the reality of it no matter what you choose.

[@ktmkaratechips]

Cliff, any tips for guessing cross canyon winds? My experience has been that the wind in the middle of the canyon can be double or triple what I’m feeling on my side and sometimes it’s totally the same. Any help would be awesome! Thanks!

[@jaredklein8863]

I have no problem shooting at game way further than most people are comfortable with. I put in the time to do it, reliably. But I don’t mess with wind. It’s calm or I don’t take the long shots. It’s just too unpredictable.

[@CliffGray]

👍

[@weekendwarrior2959]

Hey Cliff, a question about the bergers at under 400: you said they knock the shit out of the animals but what is the meat damage like? And what kind of weight retention do you see? I have no experience with bergers.

[@ez7977]

As a benchrest shooter that limits my hunting range to 400, maybe 500 in perfect conditions and have taken Western big game the average hunter/shooter should limit their range to 300. Especially is you are using factory loaded ammo. Your hunting rifle/ammo combo is probably at best 1moa, and you are not shooting 1moa in the field off hand. At 400 yards most bullets are dropping 20”, 1moa at 500yards is approx a 5” error, factor in wind, animal taking a half step by the time the bullet gets there…. This adds up ALOT of error that ends in a wounded animal.

[@CliffGray]

👍

[@andersed1]

Want to learn how to call and shoot in the wind? Shoot at the Wilcox range on Camp Pendleton in the afternoon. OMG….. every range flag from the shooting area to the 500 yard line is flying at different directions and speeds, and constantly changing. Best advice I can give for that situation is to call the wind based on your target range. I.e. dope for the 500 yard flag when shooting at 500 yards because that is when your bullet is the slowest, and it spend more time in that area.

[@StrateOutdoors]

My wife is super pissed that I just shaved my head. Thanks a lot dude.

[@CliffGray]

Bwhaha! U R welcome man! 😜

[@LRRPFco52]

Excellent video. I've been shooting long range here in the Mountain West since the 1980s, have been doing formal long range shooting since 1995. A lot of the time, different winds will cancel each other out and there's no way of knowing it other than breaking a shot through it and getting a register. I mimic the HUD symbology of the F-16' CCIP mode in my head when talking to a shooter. I give constant wind corrections in their reticle increments so they can make the shot. There is no static wind hold since wind is variable. Reading the wind is an artform and a science, with no easy ballistics program answer.

[@CliffGray]

Agreed! Awesome comment, sounds like you’ve got a ton of experience on this one. Mountain winds are humbling!

[@LRRPFco52]

@@CliffGray I'm in agreement with your previous videos where a guide/hunter combo should keep the shots within 300-350yds if the shooter doesn't have long range experience. For LR shooters in their first 12-36 range sessions or competitions, they should keep it within 400-600yds after repeatedly demonstrating 100% hit rate on 12" plates out at those distances. For the LR disciples who have 37-72 LR sessions and/or competitions, they can start to extend out from 500-800yds, depending on their confidence in 100% hit rate within 85% of the broadside vitals. For the long-term guys who have been shooting LR regularly for the better part of 2 decades, they know what their capabilities and limits are already. I'm in the camp where I believe the animal deserves your best, especially elk. I love just watching elk in their majesty, especially the rut at Estes Park.

[@HoffnerPrecision]

I’m fortunate enough to have a 1000 yard steel range set up from the comfort of my front deck. The interesting part is that my house sits at the convergence of 3 canyons, causing 3-4 different wind profiles by the time the bullet hits the farthest target. Usually I can make a first round hit, but there have been days that a buddy and I have shot 20-30 rounds and never made a hit, due to crazy winds. That experience has made me second guess quite a few hunting shots and I put in the effort to get into a better position where a good shot was a sure thing. We’re living in a time when people think they can simply buy a nice long range rifle and range finder, hit the range a couple times to gain confidence and then go shoot a 900 yard deer. With the wolves killing such a large portion of the herds, and the inexperienced long range guys injuring so many of the rest, hunting is going to get harder and harder until we can find good solutions to both problems.

[@highcountryprecision4639]

The in experienced long range guys are not wounding much game, they hit many more when they were shooting the same way only close. My observation is at long range the game is far safer from these guy and for the guy who do develop the skill the game is the same kinda dead as when those guy hunted closer.

[@HoffnerPrecision]

@@highcountryprecision4639 My dog and I have spent a lot of time on the mountain every year for the last ten years tracking wounded deer and elk that would disagree with you on that one. I’m glad your experience shows different.

[@highcountryprecision4639]

@@HoffnerPrecision I've watched some guy who I've had to consistently over the years help them dispatch elk, once they got the long range bug their wounding elk went way down, they simply shot so far their hit percentage went down.

[@Gokiburi777]

Did the high power shooting competition for years and there were tons of different ideas on how to dope the wind- all of them involved a pinch of voodoo. There is no way of knowing where the wind is blowing and how hard it’s blowing over a long distance shot. It’s important to know how to estimate on a fixed firing line, but as a hunter you should be approaching the animal downwind. If you do this, the wind value is ZERO no matter how hard it’s blowing. Hunters now days want to make that cross canyon 700 yard shot instead of developing stalking skills that can cut that distance down by several hundred yards.

[@CliffGray]

Great comment, thanks. I’ve actually found over the years that a lot of my stalks end in a cross wind, side hill stalking around the back of a basin, using the rising thermal, etc… Probably depends a lot on the topography you’re hunting. 👍

[@McDanielRanch]

Lol hunting speed goats at 6,000 feet in the flat tops. Sur is a small target in nasty wind shift. Not a good situation lol. but that's were I find the boons.

[@CliffGray]

👍👍👍 I can imagine that’s tricky man!

[@McDanielRanch]

​@@CliffGrayput in for nm unite 18 antelope. And I'll show u some good goats no charge. I got to look at umm anyways and a lot of big one get away every year.

[@weinerdog137]

Cause calling wind takes PRACTICE.

[@CliffGray]

Yes it does!

[@1bobharvey]

I do a lot of flying in the mountains, I'll be the first to tell you there are a million vatiables to consider depending on whats going on. Are you shooting across a ridge horizontally or vertically, is the bullet protected form wind by terrain or vegitation, are you shooting through open air across a conyon, is the wind rising near terrain and falling out in the valley, is it burballing behind a knob, ect, ect, ect. Predicting wind in the mountains is like reading a invisible river 😆. Point is if its blowing anything over a corection factor larger than half the vitals of that game animal horizontally your probably just gonna need to get closer.

[@CliffGray]

Thanks Bob. That is a great rule of thumb… I like it. I’ve flown a minimal amount in the real mountains, but holy smokes those winds brought a new dynamic to the adventure!

[@williamfeldner9356]

Thank you for this comment. Only someone who has flown in the mountains understands the invisible river. People just do not realize how variable and unpredictable the wind currents are in the mountains. They simply can not be read with any degree of accuracy at great distances. This was simply the best post in this video……….

[@1bobharvey]

Essentially, I think of wind the same way you think of maximum point Blank Range for drop. Ex: 6" vitals for width, half is 3", any wind hold you need more than 3" left or right with YOUR bullets caliber/bc/velocity then you need to get close enough for the given peak wind hold, that it fits in that 3" wind call. Then all you have to do is aim center and squeeze, at worst the wind is full value and you are on the edge of the vitals not center but still in them. If you use a light for caliber low bc round nose that means you need to be close. If you use a heavy for caliber high bc monster like a .308 cal 212 barnes borerider with a .700 G1, then you can extend that distance for a 10 mph wind significantly. Out on flat prairie, in the timber, or in a valley bottom this doesn't apply nearly as much as wind is linear and typically predictable.

[@nj-bz8pv]

Thousand yards. Send it. It’s easy man everyone does it on KZbin

[@CliffGray]

Bwhaha

[@williamfeldner9356]

Cliff you know as a guide and outfitter shooting past 400 yards in field conditions is just reckless and irresponsible.

[@TheLastAmericanOutlaw]

I think that 💯 depends on your shooter. But for 90% yes

[@TheWestStJoe]

I call bullshit. That’s a blanket statement covering a myriad of different shooters and equipment. Many people can competently and repeatedly make shots in “field conditions” much farther than 400 yards.

[@williamfeldner9356]

@@TheWestStJoe No bullshit, I am absolutely sure most hunters do not have the ability to shoot much past 400 yards in the field. If you are not absolutely sure you can take the animal 100 percent of the time with a quick clean kill do not take the shot……. Field shooting is a lot different than shooting off a bench in the summer. Most high power rifle calibers time to target past 400 or 500 yards allows enough time for the animal to move enough making a heart shot a gut shot. Lost animal resulting. Montana did a study where it was found that for every 100 animals recovered, 15 to 30 animals were lost. That Sir is an unacceptable percentage. As the range distance increases, the chance of a hit decreases even if your rifle shoots 1/2 MOA….. mathematically it is exponential error.

[@TheWestStJoe]

Your original statement said that shooting past 400 yards in the field is just reckless. Implying that no matter the individual or equipment, it is plane reckless. That is the part I’m disagreeing with you on. I would agree that a lot of hunters are not capable of making that shot 100% percent of the time but plenty of them are with the right equipment. I shoot a 33xc pushing a 275 grain bullet at 3300 feet a second. At 400 yards, the time of flight is .39 seconds. The bullet is still traveling at 2900 feet a second at impact. A full value 10mph wind only deflects the bullet 4.5”. That sir is called a chip shot.

[@TheLastAmericanOutlaw]

@@williamfeldner9356 ok I’ll chime in. First bow hunters lose more animals than any weapon in every state this is a fact and has been for years. Bow hunters lose the most. Again I’d say the majority of hunters can’t shoot past 100 yards well, they just can’t. And in the west not at all. But there is a group of us that do fine with it. Cliff can speak for me I believe. We were in a class together. I have successfully harvested many animals past 800 My 17 year old just shot a sheep at 550 off a tripod moving. My nephew 734 prone with a creed. It can be done. But because I can doesn’t mean you can. What rattles me is why do my ethics and skill level need to be regulated by someone who doesn’t have the same skills. You may be amazing at 400 then that’s your standard.

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

Meh, it's also that shooting positions in the field aren't perfect like on the range. Maybe you have a weird body angle. You're sweaty. Maybe a little dehydrated. Maybe you didn't sleep well. You may still be out of breath. All that, and more, affects your shooting significantly. You'll never be able to replicate range results in the field. Let's face it... Guys shoot way too far and are way too confident. Most people, and that probably includes YOU (yes, you), shouldn't shoot past 150 or 200 yards, and most definitely not if it's more than the lightest breeze. Its windy af where I am and absolutely everyone will tell you shooting in wind is pointless.

[@CliffGray]

I agree with a lot of this. Thanks for the note.