HOW MUCH HP IS AN INTERCOOLER WORTH? CHEAP, JUNKYARD M90 BLOWER GETS A TICK PERFORMANCE INTERCOOLER.

[@hondatech5000]

That throttle body, the ic, the hi ram, and a 3800 blower 😂 perfect👌

[@nessumsar]

I'd love to see the M90 on the Low Ram intake, you know, for hood clearance.

[@garykarenmcgruther6386]

You should try a Interchiller in testing. Yes, Its a intercooler that uses the factory A/C to super chill the in coming charge.

[@dustinandtarynwolfe5540]

It sounds cool but I'd highly doubt an air conditioner would have the throughput to cool the volume of air that an engine requires. Otherwise you'd hear about them a lot more. It's like trying to cool your computer with a freezer. Sounds good but in practice it's unrealistic.

[@normanmadden]

@@dustinandtarynwolfe5540 Hmm, a water to air inter-cooler reservoir would benefit from an AC expansion core, so long as it didn't freeze over during non boost /low speed operation. Turn on the AC to pre-cool the IC reservoir, before a drag strip run.

[@alfreddurbyn642]

I've found that intercooler don't add a lot of horsepower but prevent loses from heat. This testing is done with cool down periods in-between and a real world situation they have the tendency to heat up fairly quickly and that is when the intercooler shines. Awesome testing though, I'm sure you're saving people a lot of time and money with your videos, thank you.

[@lil_Bailey]

This is my absolute favorite series

[@TurboBaldur]

Of course the boost should drop when you add an intercooler on a positive displacement blower. The blower isn't moving a lot more air volume as the pulley ratio is still the same, but cooling the air down makes it contract so any air flow increase will come purely from there being less pressure in the manifold against the blower, making the blower work more efficiently (less internal leakage).

[@BuffMyRadius]

I just wrote a similar comment in question format because I thought I was loosing my mind!

[@richardholdener1727]

I need to phrase it better or you need to understand more-the point wasn't that there would be NO drop in pressure-the point was that this was too much of a drop for this combination of boost and flow and core size

[@TurboBaldur]

@@richardholdener1727 gotcha. Yes the drop is greater than you would expect by just calculating the ratio of the two temperatures in kelvin scale.

[@francisbeaudry8598]

exactly @@TurboBaldur

[@richardholdener1727]

regardless of the temp drop-math doesn't tell you about the potential restriction

[@pancudowny]

Richard, I know you love how cheap & available the M90 blower is... but let's be realistic: No-matter how over-driven/over-sped it is, it's not enough for an engine of much greater size than it's factory applications. So get to the 'yard or swap meets, and find the setup GM put on the 6.2L... and bolt that atop the 5.3L instead. Okay? You'll have a better adiabatic state (lower charge temperature pre-intercooler) than you would with an overworked M90...!😉

[@richardholdener1727]

You are incorrect about the M90-we have already more than doubled the factory power output. You won't find any factory 6.2l blowers or motors in junkyards. Please feel free to do what you want with your project.

[@tomconner5067]

Gale Banks proved this beyond any shadow of any doubt, and he’s equipped to do the proper testing with flow benches, specialized meters, sensors, thermocouples, monitors, high end quality reliable high tech, and he forgot more than any one of us will ever know about how to make huge usable power gains.

[@richardholdener1727]

Gale never ran this intercooler with a junkyard M90 on a modified 5.3L-or maybe you forgot

[@Hazardous_Fabrication]

​@@richardholdener1727 Jeez Rich take it easy on the poor guy 😂

[@lifeishard1211]

Richard is jealous of Gale Bank's success.

[@jimlathrop8603]

Im enjoying all the m90 testing, and personally think having plenum space between the blower and cooler will benefit. Is the 4.8 you tested the blower on still around? Im curious how much the blower porting changes the results.

[@ls1nissan]

I saw this one Richard. I was hoping you would do another shakedown of it with a turbo and either a Holley or other lid.

[@richardholdener1727]

planned

[@MrPhukyew]

Here's another thought, if you're worried that there might be restriction with the intercooler setup then try measuring pressures before and after the intercooler. 1 quick drill and tap and add a NPT fitting for a line to monitor.

[@LonniesPerformanceAutomotive]

I love the videos, but you can never provide too much info... It would be nice to see the boost both above & below the intercooler. (both measured with & without cooling water to see the temperature effect). You will lose boost from both intercooler restriction & also a physical volume reduction due to lowered temperature. Could you use a traditional carb hat to measure airflow into the throttle body to prove the flow rate changes?

[@growasetalready]

Love the bubbler test Richard thanks, looks like a bubbler delete is a good option on blowers with that set-up.

[@richardholdener1727]

agreed

[@hobbesnmina2001]

I understand that Richard, I’ve watched the grand majority of your videos. There’s different water methanol systems out there and some have gotten quite sophisticated. What I’m referring to is the M90 is a relatively inexpensive blower and keeping with that theme a simple basic system like the original Holley used a windshield washer pump. I used that system before that to keep a 71 Hemi Challenger and a 70 Ss396 375 hp Camaro on pump gas after leaded high test went away. The problem with those systems is on boost as the boost goes up the pump is doesn’t have enough pressure to overcome. I got around that by injecting the meth water before the turbo. The M90 would vaporize the mixture injecting it the same way and would cool the blower lobes. It’s not a sophisticated method but it’s cheap, easy and keeps with the idea of low buck! 😉 It was my introduction to EFI with the Turbo Laser that I read the O2 sensor would read the volume of oxygen and adjust the mixture that told me “hey the simple water methanol system would work and it did!

[@richardholdener1727]

I agree with the low buck approach (obviously). BTW- factory EFI motors don't usually run closed loop at WOT

[@hobbesnmina2001]

True, good point.

[@SenorYuk]

Opening up the spacer and removing the H bar from the outlet side of the blower would have to help a lot. When I did my gen v IC setup, I used a .500" delrin spacer below the intercooler because the core protruded into the manifold plenum but with the top of the core exposed and the H bar removed, there was a lot more room for air to flow to the recirc side of the opening. Obviously more space is better but sometimes we put engines in cars. I lowered the engine mounts in my Bonneville to buy hood clearance but more would have been great.

[@bryanhutzler7010]

I did the quick math on the back of an envelope. The temperature drop you saw would yield a theoretical intake pressure of 18.2 psi or 3.5 psi of boost. I don't see an intercooler restriction, I see the intercooler doing its job.

[@richardholdener1727]

incorrect

[@lifeishard1211]

@@richardholdener1727 I wonder if Tick Performance has any input on that intercooler core not doing it's job.

[@dlrgarage6744]

Sweet, I’ve been wanting for this video

[@tomconner5067]

Compressing hot air is easier on the SC, so there’s less parasitic drag loss, but compressing cold dense oxygen rich air you gain more than you lose

[@nilsthemis]

When the air charge is cooled, density goes up so pressure must decrease. The small power increase is the result of the supercharger managing to pump more air because of that reduced backpressure. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[@richardholdener1727]

not this much

[@lifeishard1211]

when you have a fan blowing air and you put your hand in front of it, the air speed goes down when you pull your hand away. it's literally that simple. if you space the supercharger further away from the intercooler, there will be less boost. it's the same idea with a shroud going around a fan and a radiator, the shroud holds the airflow inside it so there is more air movement. you need a bigger hole for the boost to go through.

[@jvepps]

Absolutely perfect for a Miata.

[@ryandoyle4344]

A larger spacer could help, &/or elongate the discharge opening of the plate towards the bypass opening. GL

[@tonyhunterb2938]

Also radius or chamfer the bottom edge of the spacer plate going into the cooler i.e. port the opening.

[@richardholdener1727]

the flow rate of the opening in the plate is much higher than the V-shaped discharge coming out of the blower

[@johnnyringo35]

Just a thought.....make a triangle shaped adapter, bolt a m90s to each side. More space and an extra blower to boot....

[@richardholdener1727]

already in the works

[@jmflournoy386]

On Cigarette boat Tall Block BBC we found lower exhaust temp and easier on the valves. Also Heavy trucks with a long pull looking to see what you found but if I remember correctly your charge temp was not outrageous watching run... The trucks ran short cams the boats bigger but not to big as you need torque to get the boat up on it's plane...Wow cooler charge allowed timing Our trucks/ busses did not run a lot of boost but the boats did (same sandwich system) plugs all read the same?/? any egt following waiting for next test 70 degrees- nice

[@keithbarron3654]

The air traveling thru intercooler will condense and show pressure drop, especially with small supercharger, think when you add more spacer, it will slow down velocity and more temp and pressure drop. Interest in os lamda sensor readings for each cylinder to see air flow differential.

[@richardholdener1727]

the point is just not this much

[@Airman..]

I would love to see the maximum potential of the blower on pump gas / intercooler setup, then moving to 100% Ethanol non intercooled. And i would like to see oil temperature performance effect on boosted/non boosted engines to emphasize on oil coolers role

[@richardholdener1727]

oil cooler does nothing to power, we have already run e85 with no cooler, max power on pump gas requires knock sensor

[@ShortFuzeDrummer]

I feel like i remember seeing a video where the m90 was "too small" for a 4.8, but now i see this thing making some steam. Maybe i missed some context in the other video, but this little blower is bad ass

[@richardholdener1727]

the first vid was my mistake

[@MyLonewolf25]

Definitely need some more spacer on that core. I’d just do one up in cad then have send cut send cut out a couple 1/2” spacers which would be pretty cheap. Definitely looking forward to see what more spacers are going to do

[@FusionFab]

That pressure drop is possibly caused by the cooling of the air and not the restriction. When hot air is cooled it is also condensed. You may see the same drop in pressure even if you put some airspace between the blower and the intercooler coil. We could confirm this by logging the pressure above the intercooler. If the pressure between the blower and the intercooler coil went up, we can surmise that it is due to restriction, but if not, what we’re seeing is the contraction of air through the process of absorbing heat from the air.

[@richardholdener1727]

it's not from cooling-that is only a minor drop-this core had only .8 psi drop at 900 hp and 20+ psi

[@FusionFab]

@@richardholdener1727 I don’t know about this one. Using gas laws and a temperature/pressure calculator, I estimated that with a 72 degree drop in temperature, the drop in pressure (in a sealed enclosure) would be around 1.72 psi. The formula is Pf=Pi*Tf/Ti. I think you’ll see an even greater drop in pressure when you use the whole core of the intercooler. More cooling = more shrinking. Air density increases, so there will be more oxygen even with less pressure. So it should still make more power. Pretty impressive that such a small area of that intercooler could drop the temperature that much.

[@timothybruggeman9332]

@@FusionFab " I think you’ll see an even greater drop in pressure when you use the whole core of the intercooler" I don't think so because you are going to be passing the same (or nearly the same) volume of air through a larger area of the intercooler, so the pressure drop through the intercooler should be less.

[@timothybruggeman9332]

I may be preaching to the choir here, but the reason intercoolers work is because as the air passes through the blower (regardless of whether it is an exhaust driven turbocharger or a belt driven supercharger), the air is getting heated up by the “heat of compression.” Any time you compress any gas, this happens. Hot air is less dense than cold air, that is, for a given volume, there will be more “mass” of air when it is cold, than when it is hot. And engines run on the mass of air passing through them, not the volume of air. So, as your piston moves from TDC to BDC, that volume doesn’t change but there will be more air in that volume to burn when the air is cold, than when the air is hot. More air (by mass) means more power.

[@richardholdener1727]

Thnx-we know how intercoolers work

[@lifeishard1211]

@@richardholdener1727 you think you do.

[@AnnoyedGarterSnake-gh6vo]

Allmost my man and maybe you just states it wrong and the concept is spot on but what the colder air does is allow the fuel to be burned more efficiently no actually providing power or anything on its self you could pump as much air as you want thru a engine if theres no fuel combustion theres no power at all and THATS what colder air vs hot air allows YES everything about the density os correct but what that increased colder air does is allow for better and all together more fuel to combust THUS giving more power.. Heres my 7th grade report on EXSACTLY this thanks to samsung i was able to take a picture and use it to extract all the text! . Both turbochargers and superchargers increase horsepower by forcing more air into the engine's combustion chamber, allowing for more fuel to be burned and, consequently, more power to be produced. However, the air these chargers compress gets very hot in the process, which can actually hinder performance. That's where the intercooler comes in. Here's why an intercooler makes a turbo/supercharged engine more powerful: Hot air is less dense: Hot air molecules spread out more, meaning there are fewer oxygen molecules packed into the same volume compared to cooler air. Less oxygen translates to less efficient combustion and ultimately, less power. Intercooler to the rescue: An intercooler acts like a radiator for the compressed air, using air or liquid coolant to significantly reduce its temperature before it enters the engine. Colder air is denser, packing more oxygen molecules into the same volume. Denser air = More combustion with = MORE POWER: With denser air entering the combustion chamber, more fuel can be efficiently burned, generating more power. The increased oxygen content also leads to a more complete combustion process, which further boosts power output. Additional benefits: A cooler intake air also reduces knocking (premature detonation) caused by high temperatures, allowing for increased boost pressure from the turbo/supercharger without detonation issues. This further translates to even more power potential. So, while a turbo/supercharger provides the muscle by shoving more air into the engine, the intercooler acts as the smart tuner, ensuring that air is at the optimal temperature for maximum power and efficiency. It's like adding a well-designed air conditioning system to the engine's intake manifold, boosting its performance potential. Here's a simple analogy: Imagine you're trying to fill a bucket with water. A pump can help you fill it faster, but if the water is boiling hot, it expands and occupies more space, meaning you can't actually fit as much water as you could with cooler water. An intercooler essentially cools down the "hot water" of compressed air, allowing you to pack more air and fuel into the engine's combustion chamber, generating more power. Im pretty sure if i got this in 7th grade richard gets it at least well enough to not need a 5rd grade lesson on air density and highschool auto class lesson on the workings of a combustion engine. You know theres those little kids in the background of every school yard fight, jumping up and down going YEAH! YEAH!...you where one of those kids huh?

[@timothybruggeman9332]

@@AnnoyedGarterSnake-gh6vo thanks for the lesson buddy. I guess I must have skipped that day in 1981 when Dr. Newhouse was explaining intercoolers in ME403 class, Internal Combustion Engines, while I was on my way to my undergraduate degree in Mechanical Engineering. As Richard put it so succinctly, thanks, I think I know how an intercooler works.

[@boostedbird4799]

Dropping the IATs would let you spin the M90 even more. That's what we usually do in the 3800 world. Intercooler added, acts as a restriction, but then we add more boost to compensate. Ported outlet from Jokerz and going down to 2.4 or 2.2 would probably help gain some more power. But at that point you'd probably need to invest in an 8 rib belt and/or belt wrap kit from zzp. I'd imagine at the 2.4-2.2 range you're going to see some belt slip

[@richardholdener1727]

those blower pulleys sizes are unnecessary since we already have a 7.5-inch crank pulley.

[@hayden6056]

Can we spin her up further and see what happens? 😂 I've got a machined snout with a pulley wrap kit that directly goes on the snout with mine.

[@lifeishard1211]

@@hayden6056 the 2.6 pulley wouldn't go on if the snout wasn't already machined.

[@hayden6056]

@@lifeishard1211 that's machining it for the pulley.... My snouts machined smooth the majority of the way to the base plate and then a CNC tensioner goes on to that machined part itself. Look up bazspec fabrication in Australia he does a lot of machining for anything m90.

[@melvingrimes7886]

I would love to see what the Audi 3.0t or the TVS1320 supercharger could do.

[@brett2297]

Your should try n/a and n/a with the heat exchanger for fun see if it will change anything

[@acidtechno]

can we add a turbo air pressure / water jet atomiser to another IC setup and dyno gg

[@richardholdener1727]

TURBO AIR PRESSURE?

[@acidtechno]

@@richardholdener1727 yes to modulate water / air atomiser , try one in reverse with turbo boost im currently setting up , with the jet plumbed in normal use a co2 bottle instead as the nozzle here requires , air compressor or co2 inlet 3 bar etc , water 1.5bar . . or in reverse - water 120psi . and turbo pressure 1.2bar and above. use as evaporator reverse with turbo and green led , or normal route as a spray / chiller with co2. i can link you once i have it recorded.

[@bluecollarhotrods9781]

The quest for 700 HP with a junkyard blower... 650 is probably more realistic. (More porting and the thicker spacer) Wondered if you'd see any belt slippage when adding the longer belt for the IC.

[@BuffMyRadius]

Water/meth and some optimizing here and there I think puts 700 just barely in range. Rich might consider bumping the sc pulley size back up a bit and leaning on the high RPM horsepower of the NA engine which sort of sounds like cheating, but 700 hp is 700 hp

[@richardholdener1727]

WM won't add power

[@lifeishard1211]

it will if you actually lean the air fuel ratio from it being too rich. I remember when you tested a water/methanol kit to see if it made more power than an intercooler. it didn't because you didn't lean the afr. w/m has made more power in forced induction engines since 1945 but somehow it didn't when you tested it.@@richardholdener1727

[@3800S1]

That's a nice looking intercolder.

[@richardholdener1727]

It sure is!

[@zacharykelley359]

I’m curious how a 3800 Intercooler would do in comparison to

[@dsm4959]

My question is in regards to a Supercharger and not a turbo with a wastegate. Thanks again

[@corbanchristie2546]

Can you do a video on different exhausts? Long tube vs shorty. Mandrel bent Va crunch. X vs H pipe, and all sorts of different mufflers? Also size of exhaust like 2.5 vs 3 vs larger. Thanks.

[@richardholdener1727]

I have lots of stock vs shorty vs long tube header videos up

[@Willysman67]

I think boost dropped because the IC was working in spite of restricted surface area. Airflow probably explains why the power only went up a little but because you cooled the charge it couldn't fill the area. Cooler denser air made up for the lack of airflow. If you restricted the airflow, boost probably would have gone up.

[@jonathanclegg1545]

Liked the video But that supercharger is way too small for that size of engine for it to be efficient at making power. I bet if you got 2x blower units the belt driven turbo type blowers and put them on it will make more tourq and power and sustain more boost in the higher rpms. 👍

[@richardholdener1727]

two will obviously make more than 1-but this exercise right now is about trying to find out what we can get from 1 m90

[@pmd7771969]

Intercooler add power if you crank up more boost because they allow it.

[@tptrsn]

Awesome video Richard! And I was wrong, since I thought this was going to be the setup where FINALLY, an intercooled setup makes less power than without an intercooler. Well, it didn't make less, but it also didn't make much more. BUT! It made more, despite less boost, which I will assert was a function of the ideal gas law, PV=NRT (IIRC), decreasing the pressure as a function of decreasing the charge temperature significantly. I honestly don't think that a bigger spacer above the core will make any difference. Also, I think maybe the extra degree of timing was useable because the boost was lower and the charge temp was lower. I call it a valid test for sure, but I think the intercooler isn't worth the trouble in this case.

[@richardholdener1727]

Given the core has been tested at higher flow and power levels with less pressure drop-I feel you are incorrect about the boost drop and need for additional space between the plate and intercooler

[@tptrsn]

@@richardholdener1727 If it was a turbo setup I would be in complete agreement with you Richard, but this supercharger isn't sending any extra air, and when the intercooler decreases the temperature of the charge, it is also decreasing the volume of the charge air. I.e. less boost by mathematical certainty. It's simply a function of the intercooler doing a good job.

[@NBSV1]

The supercharger outlet is at one end. To get to the cylinders at the opposite end it needs to squeeze through that small gap between the intercooler and the spacer plate. Without the intercooler it had the open space of the high ram to get from the blower outlet to the far cylinders. And, manifold density is the real goal with forced induction. Hot air is less dense so requires more boost pressure to get the same density you can get with cooler air. That’s why chasing simple boost pressure numbers isn’t good.

[@richardholdener1727]

if there is a restriction between the blower and the core-there is less airflow from the blower. If we eliminate the restriction, airflow should increase from the blower (blower flow is a function of inlet and outlet restrictions and blower speed). If we increase airflow, boost after the cooler should go up

[@tptrsn]

@@richardholdener1727 Agreed Richard! It will be interesting to see what the real world outcome is on the dyno. After doing the math a bunch of different ways, it appears that the pressure has to reduce by .7psi from 5.6psi@162F down to 90F (about 12% pressure reduction for that temperature change). So if you replicate that non-intercooler result and then add in the core with the spacer, it seems to me that 4.9psi is the best you can expect. Will be awesome to find out for real!

[@Rampant_Colt]

Richard, i think it's time for a 2.3L Whipple. That lil M90 ran outta breath even with the 2.6" pulley

[@BuffMyRadius]

Whipples are like, 20x the cost of the M90 though. I'm here to see what The Little Supercharger that Could can manage!

[@richardholdener1727]

not the point of this exercise

[@Rampant_Colt]

@@richardholdener1727 Or one of those supercharger and intercoolers out of a '03-04 Cobra or Lightning would be plausible

[@_vanna_white102]

What if that adapter plate became a pyramid type, it would almost make a bigger plenum too

[@Emilthehun]

Awesome as always. Now i kinda wish i had put a cooler on my gtp.

[@RecklessBlueF100]

Really looking forward to this 3rd video. Can you talk briefly about why or why not the m112 would work aswell? Im running an LQ4

[@BuffMyRadius]

The M112 would work of course, but you never find them in a junkyard!

[@richardholdener1727]

M112 is bigger so it flows more-hard to find and more $

[@RecklessBlueF100]

Sadly I'm carbed :( I gotta go big or go home if Im swapping to efi. Thanks Richard for the Brawler 750 Suggestion in previous videos. Happy to see you making new dyno content, this is a really fun project!

[@gorkuhmork]

Might have to figure out a way to remote mount the m90 and then run it trew the high ram with the inner cooler

[@7passu]

still want to see this blower on the 1997 4.3 vortec

[@Israeltop]

I would like to see how the tick a2w intercooler performs with a turbo setup.

[@richardholdener1727]

very well

[@dsm4959]

Appreciate all your great content! I have a question which I have not been able to get a conclusive answer and I thought you might have the answer. I understand that Hot air expands and Cold Air is more dense and you will always have more power in cooler weather. My question is: Does Ambient Air Temperature effect Boost Pressure? Does Boost Pressure generally rise of drop in warmer weather? Thanks Much

[@richardholdener1727]

that is an excellent question

[@Tharealcrowesnest]

What about installing a caddy mp122 sc on a ford 302 h.o

[@eddiearchuleta615]

Have you tried this set up with water methanol dual nozzles one pre and one post rotors? It called my kenne bell 1.5 over 100 degrees

[@hobbesnmina2001]

I love the testing and if you are going to do the test again to use more of the core why not compare it to the old low buck inter cooling using low cost methanol injection? I originally used a windshield washer pump on a non inter cooled 85 turbo Daytona with the higher boost control Chrysler ecu. That ecu would increase the boost by 4 lbs to 13lbs max. With a Holley water-methanol injection I could run the Daytona on 87 octane and it would run the same as 93 octane. I used a NOS pressure switch adjusted to 1.5-2.0 lbs to switch the methanol injection in. It worked great for 70k miles I ran the setup! You could compare a low buck system to inter cooling and e85 on an invested $ basis?

[@richardholdener1727]

I have vids up comparing WM to intercoolers

[@lifeishard1211]

@@richardholdener1727 yes you do and you didn't give water/methanol the respect it should have gotten

[@streit83]

There is nothing wrong with IC. The point is: using E85, when it vaporizes, it steals a lot of heat from the environment, cooling the air heated by the compressor. In this particular case, the cooling provided by the IC will not be much greater than that obtained by using E85 itself. Try doing the same test using pure gasoline, then the gains with the IC will be much more significant.

[@utahcountypicazospage5412]

This is super tall set up for 500hp wheel.cool to watch but what would this go in that you could see out the windshield 😂

[@richardholdener1727]

we can use a low ram to bring it down

[@zokusharuuku1091]

Hey Richard, could you do a test and show the difference between supercharged power on 93 vs e85 with no intercooler?

[@richardholdener1727]

it's about 35-40 hp

[@michaelblacktree]

I dunno, even with only part of the intercooler being exposed to the airflow, it still knocked down the IATs by 70 degrees. Maybe using more of the core will reduce flow restriction a bit? I guess we'll see...

[@lifeishard1211]

yes exactly. this is what I was trying to say. the zzpoop intercooler doesn't have a big area like the intercoolers that we used back in the day made by SSEILMNOP, with phenolic. the area in-between the bbv and the blower outlet square was open with the phenolic intercooler.

[@Gearbhall]

Could we replicate this on a 3800 V6 to see how this does with less displacement/cylinder count? I feel like adding supporting mods to an existing 3800 series/M90 blower combo is something people would actually do and it would be interesting to see which mods would be most beneficial for the more realistic use case.

[@richardholdener1727]

please see the many 3800 V6 vids I have up

[@utahcountypicazospage5412]

Lol 😅

[@lifeishard1211]

you need to cut your plate so the area inbetween the boost bypass valve and the blower outlet is open and free flowing.

[@richardholdener1727]

we already considered that-raising would be better

[@lifeishard1211]

You'll lose boost

[@richardholdener1727]

we want to reduce boost before the core-but increase after the core-which is what should happen with a restriction

[@bowentesch1620]

Why not try the zzp m90 intercooler that's for the m90 between the adaptor plate and the m90?

[@richardholdener1727]

we did run that on the 3800

[@bens8696]

So one point of compression might be worth 18-24 Hp on the boosted version w/o intercooler? Could be more involved to add a point of compression though... I really appreciate what you do. Very real would educational.Thanks !!

[@richardholdener1727]

this already has flat to pistons and milled heads and .041 gaskets

[@bens8696]

I’d like to see how no intercooler but meth injection would compare... also intake temp would be interesting to know. I wonder how the motor would react to even more static compression?

[@richardholdener1727]

compression adds 3-4% of the na power output per 1 full point

[@joeshumo9457]

What about moving / changing the cam for more dynamic compression?

[@richardholdener1727]

then that is a cam change

[@mjmcomputers]

Since the discharge side of the m90 is so small, would it be more efficient on a larger displacement engine to machine a plate with a round coupler that would feed into the intake? Basically it would hookup like a centrifugal supercharger.

[@richardholdener1727]

the round coupler would be very big-but might work as a remote mount

[@BuffMyRadius]

So a quick tech question: I was under the impression that intercoolers always cause a pressure drop on positive displacement superchargers. On a turbo engine the air cooling down makes it contract but this reduces the load on the turbo so it fills the extra space, while a roots blower pumps a fixed (more or less) volume of air on each rotation so lower temperature contracts the air in the intake and thus drops boost numbers. I know a lot of first gen Mini folks that do water/meth injection upstream of the supercharger with good results, but I don't know how much is due to better rotor sealing vs lower temps/higher air density at the supercharger inlet. In your experience do you usually see no pressure drop on a proper roots IC setup?

[@richardholdener1727]

we see some drop-but not this much at this combination of low boost and flow (with this size core)

[@BuffMyRadius]

@@richardholdener1727 that makes sense, with these low boost numbers there's not a huge amount of heat to start with. Did you ever throw ice into the water for an air/water IC on the dyno?

[@richardholdener1727]

I have ice water tests on the channel-it always works

[@bens8696]

More compression might not hurt with only 5-7 psi. Any counts of knock as is? Also knew a guy that ran propane injection on a 10sec 4g63 had like zero knock after propane. Also an interesting way to run pump gas and boost octane(for lack of better expression) on demand. Plus a way to add fuel when injectors get maxed out.

[@richardholdener1727]

we don't have the factory ECU-no knock sensor

[@JimBronson]

I personally don't get why you don't change the cam. Run naturally aspirated, it made peak power at 7600. But with this M90, the blower is tapped out in the low 6s. I'd like to see this tried with something like a Sloppy Best or Truck Norris cam. I really think these M90s put on an LS would work best for torque on a truck application, not necessarily drag racing type applications. You're better off with an ebay turbo than going this route if you're drag racing.

[@richardholdener1727]

you need to come to the live feed where we discussed exactly that-but what YOU would do is not what this test is about

[@lifeishard1211]

airflow is going to be the same regardless of the cam. the blower is going to output the same.

[@richardholdener1727]

airflow from the won't be the same regardless of the cam-a stock cam will reduce flow from the blower to the motor and create more pressure and reduced power. Bigger cams will do the opposite

[@lifeishard1211]

I disagree, the pulleys spinning are going to be the same regardless of the cam. @@richardholdener1727

[@JimBronson]

@@richardholdener1727 The live feeds are pretty time consuming, I'm a busy family man and it's hard to squeeze in an hour or more into my schedule. 10-15 minutes like your non-live feed videos, that I can find time to fit in. Of course, the videos are not about me regardless, it's your channel.

[@joshup1275]

Why not add a spacer sandwich between the cooler n m90 so it can use more of the cooler

[@kellyheath8547]

We need a higher ram! Get that holley April fools joke on there and splice a belt together.

[@richardholdener1727]

that thing would crumble if you looked at it funny

[@FofM1ke]

Is an Eaton m90 from a ford supercoupe the same as an Eaton m90 from a 3800?

[@richardholdener1727]

same size-different housing

[@parkernovaria2446]

Is this a pretty reliable setup how many miles do you think this setup would last

[@richardholdener1727]

the blower has already been in a vehicle for 200K miles

[@shane-222]

Waaaaaa🎉. Speed wobbles 🚘

[@richardholdener1727]

they are the worst on skate boards

[@xposethatruth1682]

I’ve got a 112 on my 5.3 right now. I’d take it off and send it to you if you wanted to test it as well. I’m going to be fabricating a 10mm spacer so I can run m122 rotor pack but that’s not done yet. Stock m112 with a small pulley

[@richardholdener1727]

thnx for the offer-but I have one. We know what a bigger blower does

[@sean.d7171]

interchillers they seem to be better than all the charge cooling types. Better than air to air ,water to air ,water methanol, only one close to interchillers is water to air with a ice box but ice boxes are not streetable.

[@richardholdener1727]

no on interchillers

[@ryan72772]

What about air temp numbers ?

[@richardholdener1727]

those were provided in the video

[@ryan72772]

Found it thank you . Not sure how I missed it

[@josephschaefer9163]

My car makes more boost when it's cold. Normally it's 11.5 psi, but it hits 15 in winter

[@richardholdener1727]

that's a big change

[@josephschaefer9163]

@@richardholdener1727 it really needs an intercooler, but it's a winter beater

[@grantadan]

S475+ intercooler if possible 1-7/8 exhaust+ m90+sandwich intercooler what would be the gains from a set up like this. And effect on charge temp, also reason I say s475 is that Will allow the more flow out of the exhaust?????

[@richardholdener1727]

an S475 is a 1000-hp turbo-so it makes the most

[@grantadan]

@@richardholdener1727 no I get that but I'm saying a compound set up with two intercoolers s475feeding m90. Cause correct me if I'm wrong but Roots chargers stack air right, so this means higher rpm with out maxing out m90

[@richardholdener1727]

see the compound 3800 v6 video

[@grantadan]

@@richardholdener1727 I've been watching those but wouldn't it be a different result with a bigger displacement or is it basically just going to be a multiplication

[@scotthatch4548]

Ok ... You like to say boost always adds to what's there...but a 5+ pounds of boost that should be a 30% gain in power but you only got a 10% gain in power so what is up with that? Where are you measuring boost?

[@richardholdener1727]

you forgot to subtract the power required to drive the blower-the formula only works for turbos

[@scotthatch4548]

@@richardholdener1727 so you think it's taking 100 HP to run that little supercharger at 6 lbs ? ...... It also seems like to much boost for that NA high HP engine and only being a m90 .... Something about this run on this engine doesn't make good sense as compared to the smaller engine test ....

[@richardholdener1727]

power consumption is based on blower speed, flow and pressure. The fact that there is only 6 psi when we near the end of the flow potential of the blower means power consumption will still be very high and it is at least 100 hp with this blower.

[@scotthatch4548]

@@richardholdener1727 so I watched the 3800 video and took notes ... Used the superichie turbo boost power formula to figure out what it should have made in power and then subtracted what you measured in power and got interesting results ... With the 3.8 pulley it used 60 HP ... With the 3.4 pulley it used 70 HP and with the 3.2 pulley it used 90hp .... So 100 HP with the larger crankshaft pulley is right in line ..... Very interesting exercise

[@damageinc81292]

Next needs to be dual m90s!

[@mauricecooper176]

Can you try running the intercooler naturally aspirated

[@lifeishard1211]

the one time I saw an intercooler being used in a N/A scenario, that engine lost power because it's more difficult for an engine to suck through an intercooler.

[@briangriffin5391]

@Richard Holdener Would running the spacer for the inter-cooler you're making with just the intake and blower ( add space above the runners and plenum volume do anything?

[@richardholdener1727]

doubtful

[@allenosborne-w7d]

a few questions, what was the temp of the water you used to cool the intercooler ? Do you have the flow rate of the intercooler water? I've always understood that the temp rise from a blower (or turbo) is a function of the boost level. Your boost level was very low. If an intercooler is properly sized with no restrictions, I suspect you would see very little pressure drop across it. Is that right?

[@richardholdener1727]

we should have very little drop across this core at this power/flow level, if we had been using all of the core

[@lifeishard1211]

@@richardholdener1727 you could be using more of the core if you cut a bigger hole in the plate the supercharger is bolted to.

[@amirdoshmanfekan5145]

Hi richard is this possible test inteecooler in n/a engine?

[@richardholdener1727]

yes

[@amirdoshmanfekan5145]

@@richardholdener1727 its intresting test😁

[@GroovesAndLands]

I love Eaton posi

[@Einimas]

How mutch more toming can you run with colder air?

[@richardholdener1727]

we added 1 degree

[@Einimas]

@@richardholdener1727 are you gonna try a ice box?

[@richardholdener1727]

I have ice water intercooler tests up on the channel

[@markforrestsr2242]

We don't necessarily care about oil pressure and rpm, show the HP and Tq?

[@richardholdener1727]

I DID

[@markforrestsr2242]

Ha,,, I should have waited a bit? Thank you

[@HPRaceDevelopment]

Why mount the blower on top?

[@richardholdener1727]

why not

[@HPRaceDevelopment]

@@richardholdener1727 To maximize your intercooler, can you mount the blower elsewhere and do a more centrifugal style piping and intercooler along with gaining vision and hood clearance like a side mount. still a budget supercharger just mounted differently

[@ultra4suzukisamurai679]

Can the temp drop alone lower the boost psi?

[@richardholdener1727]

only a little

[@AndyPhillips-q6f]

Im thinking twin m90s

[@TheLlamasThrust]

You really think that it being pressurized, that it wouldn’t in fact use the entire intercooler surface…I highly doubt that’s the case. The pressure drop is more likely to be the result of it having a cooler/denser charge versus it previously having no intercooler.

[@azlandpilotcar4450]

Seems like blowing through a small opening into a larger volume might have as much effect on reducing charge temperature as the heat exchanger. Look forward to the comparison to your next adapter improvement.

[@richardholdener1727]

it won't change power like the cooler

[@jplperformance9073]

AWSOME video

[@lifeishard1211]

you need a bigger hole under the supercharger, raising the blower up isn't going to do anything.

[@richardholdener1727]

yes it will

[@lifeishard1211]

@@richardholdener1727 we shall see.

[@davidhawthorne9637]

Me coming from the 3800 world (back when it was cool) your adapter plate, gasket, and the bottom of the blower is all wrong. On My 3800 I milled off the bar on the bottom of the blower as well as machined the lower intake to take full advantage of the intercooler. The rectangle blower opening on the plate and the gasket should be opened up to the bypass valve port. ZZP offers this modification to 3800 guys as well as MANY websites showing you exactly where to cut the stock L67 (supercharged 3800) lower intake to be able to take full advantage of the M90 blower output. My FWD L67 car made 300WHP on 8 psi (stock is 10) on a 3800 with home ported heads, ZZP camshaft, headers, 3.4" pulley on 93 oct fuel.

[@richardholdener1727]

the bottom of the blower is stock-so it is right for this test.

[@MrPhukyew]

My prediction is that it's not lacking any flow but cold air is more dense so the pressure will be lower. I think that when you add another spacer and get yourself more flow to the rest of the intercooler it's not going to gain anything because it's flowing fine. Compressed air flows much better than natural aspiration obviously.

[@jarlnieminen4307]

Lower boost higher horsepower should be the outcome.

[@daverr8163]

Aftercooler

[@jplperformance9073]

Bubbler???

[@growasetalready]

They are used on some model blowers and are called a pcv bubbler port. They are at the lowest point in the blower manifold and function as a drain with no check valve to help prevent oil buildup that may collect in the intake track. The test is to somewhat simulate what power is being lost through that 3/8th port constantly pissing boost disguised as an oil drain. If you were to block the bubbler port on one of those model blowers, this test would simulate the types of gains or similar you may see.

[@jplperformance9073]

@growasetalready ah got it. I think that's a bad idea,get rid of pvc,egr and put a good catch can setup and no need for a bubbler lol. Never heard of that bf,thanks for the information, much appreciated

[@pmd7771969]

It certainly wouldn't heat it up, rich. Lol Bloodviking

[@tylerolson5860]

Please for the love of god just put a 2.3 tvs off a 2013 2014 GT500 trinity engine!!

[@richardholdener1727]

we did a 2.3l test already with a different adapter set up-that vid is up-this is all about the M90

[@tylerolson5860]

@@richardholdener1727 with a tvs or was it eaton? I didnt see the 2.3 test thanks

[@richardholdener1727]

it was the 2.3l TVS from Ford Racing